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Taxonomic nested hierarchies don’t support Darwinism — transformed cladism rocks

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Taxonomic nested hierarchies don’t support Darwinism or common descent, actually the opposite. Michael Denton convincingly argued that nested hierarchies can be used to argue against macro evolution. If the fish are always fish, then they will never be birds, reptiles, apes, or humans.

From a forgotten book called Catholics and the Theory of Evolution, there is a quote of Platnick and Nelson who were pioneers of transformed cladism:

‘Darwinism . . . is, in short, a theory that has been put to the test and found false’

Dawkins was clearly unhappy with the claims of Nelson and Platnick and the transformed cladists:

It isn’t that any transformed cladists are themselves fundamentalist creationists. My own interpretation is that they enjoy an exaggerated idea of the importance of taxonomy in biology. They have decided, perhaps rightly, that they can do taxonomy better if they forget about evolution

Richard Dawkins
Transformed Cladism

Indeed, we can see the nested hierarchy more clearly if we disregard evolution. Why? To illustrate, if we invoke Darwinian evolution we would have to say the nesting goes like this:

FISH are the common ancestors of humans, birds, and frogs. Ergo birds nest within fish, and so do humans, and so do frogs. That is what Theobald’s Markov chain would “predict” in terms of nesting. But the actual anatomical/taxonomic nesting tells a different story: fish are fish, humans are not fish, birds are not fish, frogs are not fish. Are you going to believe Theobald’s Markov chains that you are a fish or are you going to believe you’re a human and not a fish?

To try to nest humans with fish because we supposedly descended from them is at variance with the nested hierarchy we would build by simply looking and comparing traits instead of fabricating Darwinian stories.

One might argue that if Markov processes don’t support nested hierarchies at the anatomical level, Markov processes support nesting at the molecular level. But hierarchies at the molecular level create nasty problems of their own like having to invoke molecular clocks (which have been refuted). See: Zuck is out of luck

Nested hierarchies might be produced by Markov chains, but that is not the only reason nested hierarchies exist for functioning architectures. For example, in the world of man-made machines, there aren’t fully functioning vehicles with 2.3 wheels — there are 2-wheeled, 3-wheeled, 4-wheeled vehicles, etc… The notion of even a conceptual transitional (from 2-wheeled to 3-wheeled) via small steps makes little sense. There is no transition, but rather a leap, per saltum.

Further, intelligent agents create nested hierarchies, not only out of necessity but out of their sense of aesthetics. In the world of classical music there are somewhat well defined music forms: sonatas, minuets, concertos, symphonies, operas, variations, nocturnes, preludes, etudes, rhapsodies, etc. These forms create nested hierarchies and have little to do with Markov chains. So to claim that nesting is the result of common ancestry is only based on the presumption that mindless processes were at work — but that is no proof whatsoever, and worse, the nesting reinforces the notion transitionals never existed even in principle, and thus the missing links will remain missing, and thus the nesting in evidence today is actually anti-Darwinian.

One can, just by looking at traits, assemble creatures into nice nested hierarchies. They look at first like they descended conceptually from a common ancestor, but the problem is they all look like siblings with no real ancestor. In fact, many times a common ancestor doesn’t seem possible in principle.

For example, what is the common ancestor of vertebrates and invertebrates? Err, crash…hard to conceive of even in principle. It’s like looking for a square circle. Those gene sequence worshippers argue the genes show there was a common ancestor of vertebrates and invertebrates, but they seem to have problem describing anatomically what it would look like. Google “common ancestor of vertebrates and invertebrates” and try to find even a hypothetical description of what the common ancestor could look like even in principle. Maybe the lack of transitionals suggest there weren’t any.

In sum, the nested hierarchies in taxonomy don’t need Darwinism, in fact, Darwinism distorts the ability actually see the nested hierarchies, and finally nested hierachies based on taxonomy are evidence against Darwinism.

OTHER EXAMPLES:

1. Paul Nelson and Marcus Ross have this article: PROBLEMS WITH CHARACTERIZING THE
PROTOSTOME-DEUTEROSTOME ANCESTOR.
This shows why the nesting resists a common anscestor.

2. Or how about the transitionals between unicellular and multicellular. Denton pointed out Darwinists once hoped that we could demonstrate the notion of transitionals by finding living transitionals. The absence of living transitionals is also evidence that maybe they never existed, just like functioning 2.3-wheeled cars. It would appear functioning biological systems, like man-made machines, must make leaps per saltum rather than slow gradual steps. Biological systems tend to polarize and group, they don’t seem to like gradual transitions for certain major architectures or body plans. It’s not that the fossils can’t be found, they can’t exist even in principle.

The list is endless of problems of finding transitionals even in principle, the nesting and very distinct gaps in the nesting are evidence against Darwinian evolution and common ancestry.

ADDENDUM
Denton’s chapter: “Biochemical echo of typology” gives strong argument that humans aren’t descended from fish. At best one might argue humans and fish share a common ancestor, but well, where is that ancestor?

Comments
Scordova, Think for a second about the fact tetrapods nest within "fish" (and bony fish+tetrapods nest within fish for that matter, for that matter). Once, using fossils morphology and DNA, we establish this fact is it more like that that ancestor of the whole group was fish-like or mammal-like? Mammals do descend from mammals (even though rats and mice shared a more recent common ancestor than the common ancestor of all mammals), but that also descend from fish.wd400
May 15, 2013
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of related note: New Research Debunks Theory of Prehistoric Tetrapod's Walk - May 2012 - video http://www.scientificamerican.com/video.cfm?id=new-research-debunks-theory-2012-05-29 Three-dimensional limb joint mobility in the early tetrapod Ichthyostega : Published online 23 May 2012 - video with article http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lf16z5zDm3A Tiktaalik- Out Of Order - 2009 Excerpt: One of the problems with an evolutionary interpretation of the fishapods is that these creatures appear to be out of order. http://www.reasons.org/OutofOrder Tiktaalik Blown "Out of the Water" by Earlier Tetrapod Fossil Footprints - January 2010 Excerpt: The tracks predate the oldest tetrapod skeletal remains by 18 Myr and, more surprisingly, the earliest elpistostegalian fishes by about 10 Myr. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2010/01/tiktaalik_blown_out_of_the_wat.htmlbornagain77
May 15, 2013
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WD40, So, pigeons are mammals and mudskippers (which live mostly on land) and tuna (which are warm blooded) are not fish.
thank you for the criticism, but the supposed problem you posed is easily remedied if we point out that by "milk" in the definition one means mammalian milk that comes from the mammary gland of the female, mudskippers will still die if they don't have eventual access to swimming or at least an environment extremely wet, and tuna are indeed warm blooded but are not mammals but fish because of other diaganostics. So if one removes the temperature of blood, one will still find diaganostics that separate fish from mammals. It is good that you are meticulous about the definitions I provided, but it doesn't solve the problem that mammals don't give birth to fish and fish don't give birth to mammals as demonstrated by the nested hierarchy. Darwinism demands the nested hierarchy be broken, and nuot just broken, but broken with innumerable transitionals. Physical evidence cast that into doubt doesn't it? Fish give birth to fish, not mammals, they have done so for eons, they do so today. The nested hierarchy suggests transitionals don't happen and will be thwated from happenning. So the nested hierachy (taxonomically speaking) shows: fish descend from fish birds descend from birds mammals descend from mammals So based on the hierarchy, birds descend from fish because? You answered earlier:
Because there is no complete group within the hierarchy that includes all fish and not birds.
That is a non-sequitur, but thank you for attempting a response.scordova
May 15, 2013
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Granville Sewell Good post, Sal. I didn’t understand the argument, discussed in a previous post here, that nested hierarchies would be unlikely to be produced by designers, when that is exactly what we see in all branches of human technology. And your point that transitional forms between major groups often could not exist even in principle is accurate also.
Thank you Granville. Nice to hear from you. Salscordova
May 15, 2013
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wd400, Dr. Michael Behe - "Grand Darwinian claims rest on undisciplined imagination" - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=s6XAXjiyRfM#t=1762sbornagain77
May 15, 2013
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Don't feel bad wd400, most evos don't understand nested hierarchies. However that doesn't stop them from falsely accusing others of NH ignorance- hi didymos, loser.Joe
May 15, 2013
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wd400:
Why do you think lobe fined fishes have homologs to our limb bones but ray fined fish don’t?
Fish do not have homologs to our limb bones. Only wishful thinking makes them homologs. As for fish-a-pods, well they were found after tetrapods had already appeared. Which is bass-akwards.Joe
May 15, 2013
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So, pigeons are mammals and mudskippers (which live mostly on land) and tuna (which are warm blooded) are not fish. Why do you think lobe fined fishes have homologs to our limb bones but ray fined fish don't? Or why those and fish fall into a clade with therapies in molecular phylogeny? Or all those fish-a-pods that maintain fishy traits while having limbs?wd400
May 15, 2013
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wd400:
Of course ray-finned fishes cluster with other ray-finned fishes. That’s sort of what nested means…
No, Linnean taxonomy shows you what nested means. Everything in the animal kingdom consists of and contains all the requirements of an animal.Joe
May 15, 2013
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wd400:
Build a mocecular phylogeny and you’ll see tetarapods come out nested within “fish”.
A phylogeny is NOT a nested hierarchy.
Birds descend form single-celled ancestors, fish, reptiles, acheosurs and brids.
That is the propaganda. However it is untestable and not science.Joe
May 15, 2013
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wd400, here are a few quotes from paleontologists that reveal the true nature of the fossil record:
"The point emerges that if we examine the fossil record in detail, whether at the level of orders or of species, we find' over and over again' not gradual evolution, but the sudden explosion of one group at the expense of another." Paleontologist, Derek V. Ager (Department of Geology & Oceonography, University College, Swansea, UK) "It must be significant that nearly all the evolutionary stories I learned as a student from Trueman's Ostrea/Gryphaea to Carruthers' Zaphrentis delanouei, have now been 'debunked'. Similarly, my own experience [sic] of more than twenty years looking for evolutionary lineages among the Mesozoic Brachiopoda has proved them equally elusive.' Dr. Derek V. Ager (Department of Geology & Oceonography, University College, Swansea, UK), 'The nature of the fossil record'. Proceedings of the Geologists' Association, vol.87(2), 1976,p.132. "A major problem in proving the theory has been the fossil record; the imprints of vanished species preserved in the Earth's geological formations. This record has never revealed traces of Darwin's hypothetical intermediate variants - instead species appear and disappear abruptly, and this anomaly has fueled the creationist argument that each species was created by God." Paleontologist, Mark Czarnecki "There is no need to apologize any longer for the poverty of the fossil record. In some ways, it has become almost unmanageably rich and discovery is outpacing integration. The fossil record nevertheless continues to be composed mainly of gaps." Professor of paleontology - Glasgow University, T. Neville George "Evolution requires intermediate forms between species and paleontology does not provide them." David Kitts - Paleontologist - D.B. Kitts, Paleontology and Evolutionary Theory (1974), p. 467. "What is missing are the many intermediate forms hypothesized by Darwin, and the continual divergence of major lineages into the morphospace between distinct adaptive types." Robert L Carroll (born 1938) - vertebrate paleontologist who specialises in Paleozoic and Mesozoic amphibians "In virtually all cases a new taxon appears for the first time in the fossil record with most definitive features already present, and practically no known stem-group forms." Fossils and Evolution, TS Kemp - Curator of Zoological Collections, Oxford University, Oxford Uni Press, p246, 1999 "The long-term stasis, following a geologically abrupt origin, of most fossil morphospecies, has always been recognized by professional paleontologists" – Stephen Jay Gould - Harvard Phillip Johnson - "Gould and Eldridge were experts in an area where the fossil record is most complete, "marine invertebrates", and developed the theory of Punctuated Equilibrium in response to what they saw in the fossil record in that area of research. Whereas, interestingly, the greatest claim for transitional fossils, such as ape-men, comes primarily from the area where fossilization is rarest, from land animals - April 2012 - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJDlBvbPSMA&feature=player_detailpage#t=903s "A number of hominid crania are known from sites in eastern and southern Africa in the 400- to 200-thousand-year range, but none of them looks like a close antecedent of the anatomically distinctive Homo sapiens…Even allowing for the poor record we have of our close extinct kin, Homo sapiens appears as distinctive and unprecedented…there is certainly no evidence to support the notion that we gradually became who we inherently are over an extended period, in either the physical or the intellectual sense." Dr. Ian Tattersall: - paleoanthropologist - emeritus curator of the American Museum of Natural History - (Masters of the Planet, 2012)
Here are a few videos which drive the point home that Darwinism is in severe discordance with what is found in the fossil record:
Darwin's Dilemma - Cambrian Explosion - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWEsW7bO8P4 Fish & Dinosaur Evolution vs. The Actual Evidence - video and notes http://vimeo.com/30932397 The Unknown Origin of Pterosaurs - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XP6htc371fM Bird Evolution vs. The Actual Evidence - video and notes http://vimeo.com/30926629 Whale Evolution vs. The Actual Evidence – video - fraudulent fossils revealed http://vimeo.com/30921402 Bat Evolution? - No Transitional Fossils! - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/6003501/ More of Nature's Dusty Evolutionary Gems - podcast (debunking whale evolution, feathered dinosaurs, and Tiktaalik) http://intelligentdesign.podomatic.com/entry/2012-07-27T17_26_06-07_00 Icon Of Evolution - Ape To Man - Jonathan Wells - video http://vimeo.com/19080087
Now wd400, This evidence simply does not, no matter how much you, as an atheist, may personally want to believe to the contrary, support what neo-Darwinism predicts!bornagain77
May 15, 2013
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Here is a simple definition of mammal based on characters
Mammals are vertebrates (backboned animals) that feed their young on mother's milk.
and a simple definition of fish
A limbless cold-blooded vertebrate animal with gills and fins and living wholly in water.
The nested hierarchy is fully in evidence by simple taxonomy. But Darwinism seeks to force a different hierarchy than what is so clearly in evidence. Instead Darwinism want you to see a different world where:
Mammals (backboned animals that feed their young on mother's milk) are actually fish (limbless cold-blooded vertebrate animal with gills and fins and living wholly in water).
So much for Darwinism being supported by nested hierarchies! So why again does it make sense that fish are ancestors to mammals. Wouldn't it make more sense (relatively speaking) to claim mammals are ancestral to other mammals. But of course the same problems for Darwinism arise when looking at the nested hierarchies within mammals, it becomes hard to argue one kind of mammal is ancestral to another.scordova
May 15, 2013
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Even in the present day, its not just creationists who see the disconnect between observable nested hierachies (based on anatomical and even molecular considerations) vs. the fabricated stories of evolution: See: The Incongruence bestween Cladistic and Taxonomic Systems
Incongruences are ubiquitous in comparisons of cladograms with taxonomic classifications. ... (1) Cladistics is based on inferred phylogenies, which makes for an uncertain foundation. Phylogenies of groups above the species level are, with rare exceptions, unverifiable hypotheses. Taxonomic systems are based on observable characters and do not rest on phylogenetic hypotheses.
The nested hierachies based on grouping of creatures by traits creates stable ways for organizing and identifying creatures. By way of contrast, trying to identify and label creatures based on unverifiable and ever changing evolutionary stories is what you get if you try to use evolution to help you label and organize things. Think I'm overstating? Look at this wikipedia entry on classification: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chordate#Classification One shows how things are classified via pure taxonomy - note that Tetrapoda (which includes birds, reptiles and mammals) are a sister superclass to Osteichthyes (bony fish). Tetrapoda and Oseichthes are nested within Gnathostomata (jawed vertebrates). In the case of taxonomy, the nested hierarchy is visible and testable. But then scroll down and see the phylogentic (evolutionary) classification where we have Tetrapoda (birds, reptiles, mammals, etc.) are nested within nested Osteichthes (fish). You aren't just descended from fish, from that diagram you are fish. The published nested hierachy provided in the phylogentic diagram is pure story telling based on dubious interpretations of the fossil record -- it has little basis in observed characters, in fact, many times it is opposition to observed characters. Instead it is founded on unverifiable stories. So in a sense Theobald is right, Darwinism is consistent with nested hierarchies if what one means by nested hierachies those hierarchies generated by fabricated stories, not nested hierarchies created through empirical observation of anatomy and taxonomy.scordova
May 15, 2013
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So based on the nested hierarchy, birds descend from fish because? Because there is no complete group within the hierarchy that includes all fish and not birds. Of course ray-finned fishes cluster with other ray-finned fishes. That's sort of what nested means...wd400
May 14, 2013
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Thank you WD40 for attempting a response and your civil tone
WD40: Birds descend form single-celled ancestors, fish, reptiles, acheosurs and brids. And there are characters unite them with all these groups.
So based on the nested hierarchy, birds descend from fish because? By the way, the following protein blast for skipjack tuna yields the following result which shows fish tend to hierarchically cluster around other fish suggesting that the common ancestor of fish are fish like. And unsurprisingly things that are not fishlike do not nest inside the fish group, confirming what I said, the notion that humans may descend from mammals is more believable (relatively speaking) than humans (or other mammals for that matter) descending from fish: The blast querry was
WD40: Birds descend form single-celled ancestors, fish, reptiles, acheosurs and brids. And there are characters unite them with all these groups.
So based on the nested hierarchy, birds descend from fish because? By the way, the following protein blast for skipjack tuna yields the following result which shows fish tend to hierarchically cluster around other fish suggesting that the common ancestor of fish are fish like. And unsurprisingly things that are not fishlike do not nest inside the fish group, confirming what I said, the notion that humans may descend from mammals is more believable (relatively speaking) than humans (or other mammals for that matter) descending from fish: The blast querry was
>sp|P00025|CYC_KATPE Cytochrome c OS=Katsuwonus pelamis GN=cyc PE=1 SV=2 MGDVAKGKKTFVQKCAQCHTVENGGKHKVGPNLWGLFGRKTGQAEGYSYTDANKSKGIVW NENTLMEYLENPKKYIPGTKMIFAGIKKKGERQDLVAYLKSATS
The results were:
Katsuwonus pelamis (Skipjack tuna) (Bonito) 100.0% Thunnus alalunga (Albacore) 98.0% Larimichthys crocea (Croceine croaker) (Pseudosciaena crocea) 94.0% Larimichthys crocea (Croceine croaker) (Pseudosciaena crocea) 93.0% Anoplopoma fimbria (Sablefish) 93.0% Takifugu rubripes (Japanese pufferfish) (Fugu rubripes) 92.0% Ictalurus punctatus (Channel catfish) 92.0% Danio rerio (Zebrafish) (Brachydanio rerio) 93.0% Tetraodon nigroviridis (Spotted green pufferfish) (Chelonodon nigroviridis) 90.0% Cyprinus carpio (Common carp) 92.0% Oncorhynchus mykiss (Rainbow trout) (Salmo gairdneri) 92.0% Ictalurus furcatus (blue catfish) 91.0% Esox lucius (Northern pike) 91.0% Salmo salar (Atlantic salmon) 91.0% Caligus rogercresseyi 91.0% Oncorhynchus mykiss (Rainbow trout) (Salmo gairdneri) 91.0% Esox lucius (Northern pike) 90.0% Osmerus mordax (Rainbow smelt) (Atherina mordax) 91.0% Oncorhynchus mykiss (Rainbow trout) (Salmo gairdneri) 89.0% Salmo salar (Atlantic salmon) 89.0% Salmo salar (Atlantic salmon) 88.0% Salmo salar (Atlantic salmon) 88.0% Oncorhynchus mykiss (Rainbow trout) (Salmo gairdneri) 88.0% Lithobates catesbeiana (American bullfrog) (Rana catesbeiana) 87.0% Lithobates catesbeiana (American bullfrog) (Rana catesbeiana) 86.0% Bos grunniens mutus 86.0% Ovis aries (Sheep) 86.0% Sus scrofa (Pig) 86.0% Bos taurus (Bovine) 86.0% Mus musculus (Mouse) 86.0% Rattus sp. 86.0% Otolemur garnettii (Small-eared galago) (Garnett's greater bushbaby) 86.0% Mirza coquereli (Coquerel's mouse lemur) (Microcebus coquereli) 86.0% Propithecus verreauxi (White sifaka) (Verreaux's sifaka)86.0% Hapalemur griseus (Gray gentle lemur) (Eastern lesser bamboo lemur) 86.0% ..... ..... Gorilla gorilla (western gorilla) 81.0% Pan paniscus (Pygmy chimpanzee) (Bonobo) 81.0% Homo Sapiens (Human) 81.0% Pan troglodytes (Chimpanzee) 81.0%
Interpretation? Mammals descend from mammals at best, they don't descend from fish. You can still claim that mammals descend from fish, but the nested hierarchy both at the anatomical and molecular levels do not support that claim. One might argue that fish and mammals and birds descended from a common ancestor chordate that no longer exists. That would be at least more defensible since you won't be confronted immediately with contrary data such as that above.scordova
May 14, 2013
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Birds descend form single-celled ancestors, fish, reptiles, acheosurs and brids. And there are characters unite them with all these groups.wd400
May 14, 2013
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You really aren’t getting it. Modern fish aren’t ancestors to anything, they’re just, you know, fish.
I didn't say modern fish are ancestors to anything. But the hierachy suggests: 1. fish today descended from a fish-like ancestor 2. birds today descended from a bird-like ancestor 3. mammals today descended from a mammalian ancestor that is the what the nested hierachy suggests, does it not? And explain, given this presumption as evidenced by the nested hierarchy, why birds descend from fish-like creatures? You might be able to offer a story, but it won't be justified by the nested hierarchy.scordova
May 14, 2013
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After all, for that Markov chain to claim evolution creates that nested pattern, and to claim that fish are the ancestors of horses and pigeons, they would have to nest right there near other fish beside the tuna. And if they don’t, well, then it suggests, at best, fish and horses share a common ancestor, but fish are not the ancestors of horses. You really aren't getting it. Modern fish aren't ancestors to anything, they're just, you know, fish. But some fish are more closely related to you than they are to tuna, so us tetrapods are necessarily a part of any group that contains all "fish".wd400
May 14, 2013
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Would you expect that tuna will diverge from other fish by such amounts? Some fish, not others. Test if for yourself. This is a Tuna cytochrome. On that page, open a few tabs via the "run blast" link. On each page, set the "organism" limit so you hav seperate searches for "lung fishes", "lobe-finned fishes" and "tetrapods". You'll find very similar matches in each case. Now run it against some other fish (maybe "eels", "perches", "marlin"). I'm sure they'll all be much closer to the tuna sequence. That's because some fish are more closely related to us than to other fish.wd400
May 14, 2013
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Modern Synthesis Of Neo-Darwinism Is False – Denis Nobel http://www.metacafe.com/watch/10395212/
The complete lecture deserves it's own post. Thank you ba77!udat
May 14, 2013
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Sal: In fact that nested hierachy would resist that interpretation wouldn’t it. WD: 40 No.
I was referring first to the taxanomic characteristics. So when you look at that nested hierarchy in terms of taxanomic characters, can you infer birds descended from fish? It would seem the most you could say is fish descended from fish. And if we're generous we might even say that maybe fish and birds share a chordate ancestor, but the nesting pattern does not suggest birds descended from fish. Not at all. No wonder transformed cladists don't warm the hearts of Darwinists. But with respect to the molecular data, I'll let you offer your estimate of the differences in cytochrome-c between fish species and provide for the reader an explanation why horses and pigeons don't have similarly small sequence distances. After all, for that Markov chain to claim evolution creates that nested pattern, and to claim that fish are the ancestors of horses and pigeons, they would have to nest right there near other fish beside the tuna. And if they don't, well, then it suggests, at best, fish and horses share a common ancestor, but fish are not the ancestors of horses. What you have are cousin groups where one group can't be ancestor to others.scordova
May 14, 2013
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WD40, I point you to this from the NCSE website: http://ncse.com/files/images/cej26_07.jpg notice the sequence divergence between horses and tuna (18) or pigeons and tuna (17). Would you expect that tuna will diverge from other fish by such amounts? I mean, whatever divergence there is between tuna and other fish is the amount you would expect pigeons and horses to have if you really want to nest the horse and pigeons as evolving from fish. Remember that Markov chain ought to nest mammals and birds right in their with other fish. The Markov chain might idea might have more traction if one assumes fish and mammals and birds have a common ancestor (versus mammals descending from fish). This diagram is surely suggestive of that: http://www.nap.edu/books/0309063647/xhtml/images/img00062.jpg but this diagram also implies that we aren't descended from fish. To argue that you have to fabricate a story that is contradicted by the data.scordova
May 14, 2013
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wd400, at the pace recent evidence is being accumulated, evidences which are overthrowing foundational precepts of neo-Darwinism, I'd hardly call a 2008 paper recent. For instance wd400, did you catch this little bump in the road for Darwinism in 2012 ?
ENCODE Reveals Incredible Genome Complexity and Function by Jeffrey Tomkins, Ph.D. - Sept. 2012 Excerpt: Tom Gingeras, one of the senior scientists on the ENCODE project said, “Almost every nucleotide is associated with a function of some sort or another, and we now know where they are, what binds to them, what their associations are, and more.”4 And what about the remaining 20 percent of the genome—is it functional too? According to Ewan Birney, ENCODE’s lead analysis coordinator, it’s probably not meaningless junk either. Birney said in an interview, “It’s likely that 80 percent will go to 100 percent” and “We don’t really have any large chunks of redundant DNA. This metaphor of junk isn’t that useful.”4 Birney expects that many critics will argue about the 80 percent figure and the definition of what is “functional.” Birney added, “[That figure] best [conveys] the difference between a genome made mostly of dead wood and one that is alive with activity” and “No matter how you cut it, we’ve got to get used to the fact that there’s a lot more going on with the genome than we knew.”4 Some people will probably try to claim that these statements made by the scientists of ENCODE are merely hype. However, there is little to criticize since the 80 percent figure comes directly from a clearly written statement in an 18-page research paper in the prestigious secular journal Nature.1 Furthermore, this statement came from the lead paper of 30 other concurrently published ENCODE papers that were authored by hundreds of leading genomic scientists in multiple international laboratories worldwide. http://www.icr.org/article/7064/
Or did you miss the fact that the modern synthesis of neo-Darwinism is now considered falsified?
Modern Synthesis Of Neo-Darwinism Is False - Denis Nobel http://www.metacafe.com/watch/10395212/
wd400, To help you catch up on the latest evidence that has completely crushed neo-Darwinism, and exposes the sheer inability of Darwinian processes to even explain body plans in the first place, much less explain any overall pattern body plans may be grouped in, may I recommend Dr. Stephen Meyers latest book which is due out in June to you? You can still get a discount if you order soon!
In Darwin’s Doubt: The Explosive Origin of Animal Life and the Case for Intelligent Design, Dr. Stephen Meyer will present new scientific evidence that challenges the Darwinian account of the development of animal life and points toward the reality of intelligent design. http://darwinsdoubt.com/
bornagain77
May 14, 2013
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A recent open-acess paper that takes a deeper look at animal phylogeny with molecular and morphological data, including the chordates: http://rstb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/363/1496/1557.fullwd400
May 14, 2013
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In fact that nested hierachy would resist that interpretation wouldn’t it. No. Build a mocecular phylogeny and you'll see tetarapods come out nested within "fish". Map character on that phylogeny and you'll see the features that unite birds with other tetrapods are "derived characters" -- the result of changes to ancestral characters. Or do the same with fossils.wd400
May 14, 2013
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WD40: No, you have it the wrong way around. fish are an assemblage or more or less related species that look a bit fishy (or crainiates the breath through gills as adults). What you mean is the common ancestors of humans, birds, and frogs would have be part of the (non-natural) group we call fish.
So you argue that species of fish descended from fish because the descendant look like fish, but birds descend from fish because why? Not because of nested hierarchies right. You might at best argue fish and birds have a common ancestor from some unspecified chordate, but you can't say birds descended from fish looking at the anatomical nested hierarchy can you? In fact that nested hierachy would resist that interpretation wouldn't it.scordova
May 14, 2013
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Are ray-finned fish and lobe-finned fish both fish?wd400
May 14, 2013
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No, we are not nested within fish. Both humans and fish are nested within Vertebrata, which is nested within Chordata, which is nested within Animalia. And if DNA turns out to be the magical molecule that you think it is, then your sequence data will mean something wrt relatedness.Joe
May 14, 2013
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This might be UD's finest hour - hard to imagine a higher ignorance:word count ratio ever arising. Just for starters "For example, what is the common ancestor of vertebrates and invertebrates?", Hard to imagine non-vertebrates that have vertebrate-like features? Like Hagfish? Or lanelets? Or, for that matter, seq squirts (read up about their larvae) FISH are the common ancestors of humans, birds, and frogs. No, you have it the wrong way around. fish are an assemblage or more or less related species that look a bit fishy (or crainiates the breath through gills as adults). What you mean is the common ancestors of humans, birds, and frogs would have be part of the (non-natural) group we call fish. Molecular phylognetics doesn't require the use of molecular clocks (which certainly haven't been "refuted") Scordova "If biochemical evolution followed Theobold’s hypothesis, humans would be nested WITHIN fish, we are not," Yes we are. If we look at molecular sequences we fine lobe-finned fish are more closely related to us than they are to ray-finned fishes. That puts us within "fish" if we want to keep fish as a natural group.wd400
May 14, 2013
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Sal, I'm glad you have taken the time to understand the argument and show that it is actually evidence against Darwinism. Frankly, every time the nested hierarchy argument was brought up by a neo-Darwinist, I would just think to myself, or mention something to the effect, that the fossil record does not fit a Darwinian scenario no matter how convoluted you try to twist it to be. For me it is a prime example of just how far Darwinists are willing to go just to give the impression that they are being scientific.,,, Though many quotes could be given backing up the quote Dr. Sewell gave from G.G. Simpson on the fossil record, I would instead like to offer a few recent quotes that show the phylogenetic evidence to be falling apart for Darwinists:
Orphan Genes (And the peer reviewed 'non-answer' from Darwinists) - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Zz6vio_LhY Comprehensive Analysis of Chimpanzee and Human Chromosomes Reveals Average DNA Similarity of 70% - by Jeffrey P. Tomkins - February 20, 2013 Excerpt: For the chimp autosomes, the amount of optimally aligned DNA sequence provided similarities between 66 and 76%, depending on the chromosome. In general, the smaller and more gene-dense the chromosomes, the higher the DNA similarity—although there were several notable exceptions defying this trend. Only 69% of the chimpanzee X chromosome was similar to human and only 43% of the Y chromosome. Genome-wide, only 70% of the chimpanzee DNA was similar to human under the most optimal sequence-slice conditions. While, chimpanzees and humans share many localized protein-coding regions of high similarity, the overall extreme discontinuity between the two genomes defies evolutionary timescales and dogmatic presuppositions about a common ancestor. http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/arj/v6/n1/human-chimp-chromosome Bothersome Bats and Other Pests Disturb the "Tree of Life" - Casey Luskin - December 5, 2012 Excerpt: Incongruence between phylogenies derived from morphological versus molecular analyses, and between trees based on different subsets of molecular sequences has become pervasive as datasets have expanded rapidly in both characters and species. (Liliana M. Dávalos, Andrea L. Cirranello, Jonathan H. Geisler, and Nancy B. Simmons, "Understanding phylogenetic incongruence: lessons from phyllostomid bats," Biological Reviews of the Cambridge Philosophical Society, Vol. 87:991-1024 (2012).) http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/12/bothersome_bats067121.html Phylogeny: Rewriting evolution - Tiny molecules called microRNAs are tearing apart traditional ideas about the animal family tree. - Elie Dolgin - 27 June 2012 Excerpt: “I've looked at thousands of microRNA genes, and I can't find a single example that would support the traditional tree,” he says. "...they give a totally different tree from what everyone else wants.” (Phylogeny: Rewriting evolution, Nature 486,460–462, 28 June 2012) (molecular palaeobiologist - Kevin Peterson) Mark Springer, (a molecular phylogeneticist working in DNA states),,, “There have to be other explanations,” he says. Peterson and his team are now going back to mammalian genomes to investigate why DNA and microRNAs give such different evolutionary trajectories. “What we know at this stage is that we do have a very serious incongruence,” says Davide Pisani, a phylogeneticist at the National University of Ireland in Maynooth, who is collaborating on the project. “It looks like either the mammal microRNAs evolved in a totally different way or the traditional topology is wrong. http://www.nature.com/news/phylogeny-rewriting-evolution-1.10885 pdf: http://www.nature.com/polopoly_fs/1.10885!/menu/main/topColumns/topLeftColumn/pdf/486460a.pdf micro-RNA and the Non-Falsifiable Phylogenetic Trees of Darwinists - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qv-i4pY6_MU Evolution by Splicing – Comparing gene transcripts from different species reveals surprising splicing diversity. – Ruth Williams – December 20, 2012 Excerpt: A major question in vertebrate evolutionary biology is “how do physical and behavioral differences arise if we have a very similar set of genes to that of the mouse, chicken, or frog?”,,, A commonly discussed mechanism was variable levels of gene expression, but both Blencowe and Chris Burge,,, found that gene expression is relatively conserved among species. On the other hand, the papers show that most alternative splicing events differ widely between even closely related species. “The alternative splicing patterns are very different even between humans and chimpanzees,” said Blencowe.,,, https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/the-edge-of-evolution/#comment-454316
Verse and Music:
Genesis 1:25 God made the beasts of the earth after their kind, and the cattle after their kind, and everything that creeps on the ground after its kind; and God saw that it was good. Made To Love Share - Tobymac http://myktis.com/songs/made-to-love/ Space Oddity by Canadian Astronaut Chris Hadfield - first music from space http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lb20ozOlKMk
bornagain77
May 14, 2013
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