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The cybernetic contradiction of Darwinism

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In automatic control theory “homeostasis” is defined as the property of a system in which variables are regulated so that internal conditions remain stable and relatively constant. Homeostasis is a fundamental concept in biology because is what allows the life of organisms. In fact, it maintains the stability of the organisms in response to changes in external conditions. The concept of homeostasis is tied to the strictly correlation and interdependence of all systems in a body, i.e. its functional unity. Organisms can live and survive only because are giant cybernetic hierarchical hologramatic macro-systems.

Donald Johnson defines cybernetics as:

… the interdisciplinary study of control systems with feedback. (Programming of Life, Big Mac Publishers 2010)

While Norbert Wiener, about homeostasis, writes:

In the process called homeostasis there is a large set of cases where feedback is applied to physiological phenomena and is absolutely necessary to the continuation of life. […] For our internal organization we must have a large series of automatic controls, and all a series of mechanisms that could sustain the working of a large chemical industrial plant: these are what we call homeostatic mechanisms. (Cybernetics, MIT Press 1961)

As known, basically there are two kinds of feedback: positive and negative. What kind is used in the organisms? The regulation of a single physiological process (example: blood pressure) needs the collaboration of many correlated homeostatic processes with negative feedback. Biological homeostasis necessarily involves countless processes using negative feedback loops. A negative feedback happens when the results of a change act to reduce or counteract it (negative loop gain). Conversely, a positive feedback happens when the results of a change act to increase or ease the change (positive loop gain). When in the organisms, despite all and caused by illness or injury, a positive feedback happens, this produces a risky and uncontrolled ever increasing deviance, leading to disequilibrium and eventually to death. Organisms defend themselves from changes, thanks to an all-pervading homeostatic system that cybernetically self-regulates.

Since regulation and control make sense only in the perspective of what a system must do and what values/constraints its parameters must meet, they are essentially teleological. Regulation, control and guide point to design, not at all to what is unguided as Darwinian evolution. Homeostasis requires a sensor to detect changes, an effector that is able to decrease those changes and a negative feedback loop between the two. These three things necessarily need to be correlated together by an higher direction with a goal, which only design can provide.

That said, a first question to Darwinists comes to mind: if homeostasis grants the stability of organisms, and the organisms are plenty of negative feedback systems counteracting changes, how can Darwinian evolution (= macro changes of organisms) happen in the first place?

But there is another worse question for Darwinists: given evolution wants to change organisms, why evolution created so many negative feedback systems that counteract changes? Why evolution, which is by definition macro variation, created homeostasis, which is robust maintenance of the status quo?

Darwinian evolution should prefer and create systems with positive feedback. In fact, when the loop gain is positive that creates divergence from equilibrium. And what is evolution but “divergence from equilibrium”? Given the pretension of unguided evolution is to have created 500 million extremely different species, evolution should prefer and construct what diversifies, not what maintains equal. Negative feedbacks serve to stabilize systems, not to change them. Homeostatic mechanisms give organisms a strong tendency toward stasis, not toward evolution. Homeostatic mechanisms counter evolution.

Darwin’s feedbacks should be of positive kind and instead organisms are filled with negative feedback systems. Another day, another contradiction of Darwinism. This clear Darwinian contradiction is similar to the contradiction I dealt with about the repair systems in this previous post.

We know in advance what evolutionists object to this reasoning: evolution has nothing to do with homeostatic feedback systems, because they can coexist with evolution, and evolution works at the genetic level, and evolution can create X and non X in the same time, and…

Mind you, how fixity and stability in all major workings of organisms (granted by homeostasis) could be consistent with large variability and diversification (needed by macroevolution)? Evolution “works” at the genetic level but must produce phenotypic results, and at this level we see homeostasis, i.e. stasis = non evolution.

We can add the homeostatic feedback systems to the list of contradictions of Darwinism. This list is already long but it will still lengthen, because – as I like to repeat – when a thing is false, is false from all points of view. We can patiently sit down on the river side to wait for the corpse of this absurd Darwin’s theory to finally sink under the weight of its own contradictions.

Comments
RE: Post 61 @wd400 Why? This sounds a lot like the fallacy of division. I think niwrad might be correct in this instance, for he isn't conferring the properties of the species as a whole, on each of the individuals. Rather, he is working in the other direction. If none of the constituent members of a set possess a property (in this instance ability to evolve), then it wouldn't be possible for the set (species) to contain that property. If my understanding is correct about what niwrad is communicating he is saying the equivalent: Set A is the collection of colored marbles. Set A as a whole contains the properties of "Blue", "Red", "Green", "Yellow". If none of the constitute components (colored marbles) are pink, then the Set A cannot contain the property "Pink".ciphertext
January 14, 2014
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If individuals don’t evolve then species, which are sets of individuals, don’t evolve. Why? This sounds a lot like the fallacy of division.wd400
January 14, 2014
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wd400 If individuals don't evolve then species, which are sets of individuals, don't evolve. The blood clotting cascade is auto-catalytic, but not really a degenerative positive feedback as a whole. Otherwise all the blood of the organism would be congealed, provoking its death.niwrad
January 14, 2014
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Homeostasis is a property of individuals. Individuals don't evolve. It certainly isn't true that evolution "wants" lineages to do anything. And there are many positive feedback loops in biology. The blood clotting cascade is one obvious example.wd400
January 14, 2014
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'Ahh, the power of evolution! :)' tee hee tither tither! :)Axel
January 14, 2014
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Thanks Bornagain77 for this dulcis in fundo reference and all other contributions! "molecular machines", "they Cooperate", "machine that translates", "automated inspector", "repair machines", "everything is under control", "acts like a train engine", "a repair crew can get to work", "DNA repair", "two partners then recruit a repair crew of other proteins to patch up the exposed DNA tracks"... Ahh, the power of evolution! :)niwrad
January 14, 2014
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semi OT: Molecular Machines Are Amazing Alone, but When They Cooperate -- Wow! - January 14, 2014 Excerpt: RNA polymerase -- the machine that translates DNA into RNA -- is the star player. It patrols the DNA like an automated inspector on train tracks. When it encounters a break, it stops and waits. The problem is, when it stops, it stalls over the break, preventing repair machines from reaching it. Not to worry. Everything is under control. In the new study, the NYU School of Medicine researchers reveal how another enzyme called UvrD helicase acts like a train engine to pull the RNA polymerase backwards and expose the broken DNA so a repair crew can get to work.... The study by Dr. Nudler's group and colleagues in Russia used a battery of biochemical and genetic experiments to directly link UvrD to RNA polymerase and to demonstrate that UvrD's pulling activity is essential for DNA repair. The lab results also suggest that UvrD relies on a second factor, called NusA, to help it pull RNA polymerase backwards. Those two partners then recruit a repair crew of other proteins to patch up the exposed DNA tracks before the train-like polymerase continues on its way. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2014/01/molecular_machi_3081111.htmlbornagain77
January 14, 2014
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LP @6:
What you forgot to mention is from a common ancestor.
ROFLMAO! What a hoot! Sure, that solves the question. It was a "common ancestor," so, ta-da! no problem! I'll let the rest of you guys keep battling this one, but thanks for the laugh LP.Eric Anderson
January 14, 2014
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BTW Lincoln- Speculative articles that contain stuff that cannot be tested, are best for bed-time stories, not science.Joe
January 14, 2014
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Lincoln- Mark Perahk (rip) is totally off-base- he thinks natural selection actually does something- it doesn't, well there isn't any evidence of it doing something. Not only that he doesn't present any science that demonstrates that all mutations are happenstance events.Joe
January 14, 2014
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Lincoln Phipps, yeah right 'non-random' evolutionary change is just what the base Darwinian postulate of randomness needs to be plausible. :) Moreover, Shapiro admits he has no ‘real time’ empirical evidence for the origin of novel protein domains and/or genes by Darwinian processes (so as to be able to have the ‘protein domains’ to shuffle around in the first place) but must rely, as do neo-Darwinists, on the DNA/protein sequence similarity/dissimilarity data to try to make his case that novel protein domains were created in the distant past so that ‘natural genetic engineering' can presently create all the diversity we see in life on earth today. Yet, just as with neo-Darwinists, Shapiro relying on sequence similarity/dissimilarity data to ultimately try to make his case for ‘natural genetic engineering’ has the very same ‘unscientific’ problem that neo-Darwinism has of assuming the conclusion beforehand to try to prove the very question being asked. i.e. Can novel functional information we see in protein domains and/or genes ever be generated in a ‘bottom up’ fashion by the unguided material processes of neo-Darwinism? Here Dr. Shapiro admits to this serious shortcoming of his ‘natural genetic engineering’ theory:
How Natural Genetic Engineering Solves Problems in Protein Evolution - James Shapiro - May 2012 Excerpt: When I pointed out the potential of domain shuffling by natural genetic engineering to Intelligent Design advocates who claimed protein evolution by natural mechanisms was impossible, they refused to recognize genomic data as irrefutable evidence and insisted on real-time experiments. I disagree with them strongly on the DNA sequence data. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/james-a-shapiro/genetic-engineering_b_1541180.html Exon Shuffling, and the Origins of Protein Folds - Jonathan M. - July 15, 2013 Excerpt: A frequently made claim in the scientific literature is that protein domains can be readily recombined to form novel folds. In Darwin’s Doubt, Stephen Meyer addresses this subject in detail (see Chapter 11). http://www.evolutionnews.org/2013/07/exon_shuffling074401.html Exon Shuffling: Evaluating the Evidence - Jonathan M. - July 16, 2013 The Problems with Domain Shuffling as an Explanation for Protein Folds Excerpt: The domain shuffling hypothesis in many cases requires the formation of new binding interfaces. Since amino acids that comprise polypeptide chains are distinguished from one another by the specificity of their side-chains, however, the binding interfaces that allow units of secondary structure (i.e. ?-helices and ?-strands) to come together to form elements of tertiary structure is dependent upon the specific sequence of amino acids. That is to say, it is non-generic in the sense that it is strictly dependent upon the particulars of the components. Domains that must bind and interact with one another can't simply be pieced together like LEGO bricks. In his 2010 paper in the journal BIO-Complexity Douglas Axe reports on an experiment conducted using ?-lactamase enzymes which illustrates this difficulty (Axe, 2010). http://www.evolutionnews.org/2013/07/an_evaluation_o074441.html Doug Axe's work on the rarity of proteins is focused exactly on the rarity of individual protein domains/folds themselves. Doug Axe addresses James Shapiro's mistaken disagreement with Intelligent Design here: On Protein Origins, Getting to the Root of Our Disagreement with James Shapiro - Doug Axe - January 2012 Excerpt: I know of many processes that people talk about as though they can do the job of inventing new proteins (and of many papers that have resulted from such talk), but when these ideas are pushed to the point of demonstration, they all seem to retreat into the realm of the theoretical. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/01/on_protein_orig055471.html
So regardless of what you may believe Mr. Phipps, the actual situation of the matter is that Darwinists have lost their base postulate of 'random variation' to the genome and they STILL have no evidence that the 'non-random' processes within the cell that Shapiro elucidates can produce functional information.,, Only a Darwinists, completely impervious to scientific evidence, would consider such a shattering development against Darwinian claims to be an improvement for the Darwinian position in general. Footnote, here is a breathtaking glimpse of the process of DNA Replication, Wrapping & Mitosis:
DNA - Replication, Wrapping & Mitosis - video https://vimeo.com/33882804 Nobel laureate physicist that you sure won’t read on a Darwin pressure group Web site Excerpt: Evolution by natural selection, for instance, which Charles Darwin originally conceived as a great theory, has lately come to function more as an antitheory, called upon to cover up embarrassing experimental shortcomings and legitimize findings that are at best questionable and at worst not even wrong. Your protein defies the laws of mass action? Evolution did it! Your complicated mess of chemical reactions turns into a chicken? Evolution! The human brain works on logical principles no computer can emulate? Evolution is the cause! - Robert B. Laughlin, A Different Universe: Reinventing Physics from the Bottom Down (New York: Basic Books, 2005), 168-69) https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/he-said-it-here%E2%80%99s-a-statement-from-a-nobel-laureate-physicist-that-you-sure-won%E2%80%99t-read-on-a-darwin-pressure-group-web-site/
bornagain77
January 14, 2014
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Joe, AFAIK Shaprio doesn't cite his work being consistent with the Talmud. Spetner's ideas have two masters, the scientist and the theologian. Mark Perakh highlights that here, http://www.talkreason.org/articles/spetner.cfm As for the evolution of meiosis then yes it is another gap, it is from mitosis or derived from bacteria transformation ? Who knows ? certainly no ID scientists knows. Perhaps a the Discovery Institute can publish something explaining exactly how it works, why it works, who designed it and when. Meanwhile just have to do with the gaps, http://www.genetics.org/content/181/1/3.fullLincoln Phipps
January 14, 2014
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Lincoln- all of the evidence and data presented in the paper is still good. And the paper was withdrawn for cowardly reasons.Joe
January 14, 2014
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Moreover, as I have shown you before Mr. Phipps, the problem for neo-Darwinists is now known to be far worse than they are willing to let on because it is now known to 'form' (i.e. body plan information) is not even reducible to the bottom up mechanism of random variation/natural selection in the first place.
Stephen Meyer - Functional Proteins And Information For Body Plans - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4050681 Dr. Stephen Meyer comments at the end of the preceding video,,, ‘Now one more problem as far as the generation of information. It turns out that you don’t only need information to build genes and proteins, it turns out to build Body-Plans you need higher levels of information; Higher order assembly instructions. DNA codes for the building of proteins, but proteins must be arranged into distinctive circuitry to form distinctive cell types. Cell types have to be arranged into tissues. Tissues have to be arranged into organs. Organs and tissues must be specifically arranged to generate whole new Body-Plans, distinctive arrangements of those body parts. We now know that DNA alone is not responsible for those higher orders of organization. DNA codes for proteins, but by itself it does not insure that proteins, cell types, tissues, organs, will all be arranged in the body. And what that means is that the Body-Plan morphogenesis, as it is called, depends upon information that is not encoded on DNA. Which means you can mutate DNA indefinitely. 80 million years, 100 million years, til the cows come home. It doesn’t matter, because in the best case you are just going to find a new protein some place out there in that vast combinatorial sequence space. You are not, by mutating DNA alone, going to generate higher order structures that are necessary to building a body plan. So what we can conclude from that is that the neo-Darwinian mechanism is grossly inadequate to explain the origin of information necessary to build new genes and proteins, and it is also grossly inadequate to explain the origination of novel biological form.’ - Stephen Meyer - (excerpt taken from Meyer/Sternberg vs. Shermer/Prothero debate - 2009) An Electric Face: A Rendering Worth a Thousand Falsifications - September 2011 Excerpt: The video suggests that bioelectric signals presage the morphological development of the face. It also, in an instant, gives a peak at the phenomenal processes at work in biology. As the lead researcher said, “It’s a jaw dropper.” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VULjzX__OM What Do Organisms Mean? Stephen L. Talbott - Winter 2011 Excerpt: Harvard biologist Richard Lewontin once described how you can excise the developing limb bud from an amphibian embryo, shake the cells loose from each other, allow them to reaggregate into a random lump, and then replace the lump in the embryo. A normal leg develops. Somehow the form of the limb as a whole is the ruling factor, redefining the parts according to the larger pattern. Lewontin went on to remark: "Unlike a machine whose totality is created by the juxtaposition of bits and pieces with different functions and properties, the bits and pieces of a developing organism seem to come into existence as a consequence of their spatial position at critical moments in the embryo’s development. Such an object is less like a machine than it is like a language whose elements... take unique meaning from their context.[3]",,, http://www.thenewatlantis.com/publications/what-do-organisms-mean HOW BIOLOGISTS LOST SIGHT OF THE MEANING OF LIFE — AND ARE NOW STARING IT IN THE FACE - Stephen L. Talbott - May 2012 Excerpt: The same sort of question can be asked of cells, for example in the growing embryo, where literal streams of cells are flowing to their appointed places, differentiating themselves into different types as they go, and adjusting themselves to all sorts of unpredictable perturbations — even to the degree of responding appropriately when a lab technician excises a clump of them from one location in a young embryo and puts them in another, where they may proceed to adapt themselves in an entirely different and proper way to the new environment. It is hard to quibble with the immediate impression that form (which is more idea-like than thing-like) is primary, and the material particulars subsidiary. http://www.netfuture.org/2012/May1012_184.html#2
If you have a coherent 'bottom up' darwinian explanation for the preceding examples Mr. Phipps, please let us know. As to your claim that ID has no positive evidence for its claims Mr. Phipps, well that accusation is just plain false since it is, in fact, Darwinists who do not have any positive evidence for their claims,
Show Me: A Challenge for Martin Poenie - Douglas Axe August 16, 2013 Excerpt: Poenie want to be free to appeal to evolutionary processes for explaining past events without shouldering any responsibility for demonstrating that these processes actually work in the present. That clearly isn't valid. Unless we want to rewrite the rules of science, we have to assume that what doesn't work didn't work. It isn't valid to think that evolution did create new enzymes if it hasn't been demonstrated that it can create new enzymes. And if Poenie really thinks this has been done, then I'd like to present him with an opportunity to prove it. He says, "Recombination can do all the things that Axe thinks are impossible." Can it really? Please show me, Martin! I'll send you a strain of E. coli that lacks the bioF gene, and you show me how recombination, or any other natural process operating in that strain, can create a new gene that does the job of bioF within a few billion years. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2013/08/a_challenge_for075611.html
And although Darwinists can produce no positive evidence for their claims, ID proponents do have positive evidence for their claims:
Creating Life in the Lab: How New Discoveries in Synthetic Biology Make a Case for the Creator - Fazale Rana Excerpt of Review: ‘Another interesting section of Creating Life in the Lab is one on artificial enzymes. Biological enzymes catalyze chemical reactions, often increasing the spontaneous reaction rate by a billion times or more. Scientists have set out to produce artificial enzymes that catalyze chemical reactions not used in biological organisms. Comparing the structure of biological enzymes, scientists used super-computers to calculate the sequences of amino acids in their enzymes that might catalyze the reaction they were interested in. After testing dozens of candidates,, the best ones were chosen and subjected to “in vitro evolution,” which increased the reaction rate up to 200-fold. Despite all this “intelligent design,” the artificial enzymes were 10,000 to 1,000,000,000 times less efficient than their biological counterparts. Dr. Rana asks the question, “is it reasonable to think that undirected evolutionary processes routinely accomplished this task?” http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0801072093 Dr. Fuz Rana, at the 41:30 minute mark of the following video, speaks on the tremendous 'intelligent' effort that went into building the preceding protein: Science - Fuz Rana - Unbelievable? Conference 2013 - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-u34VJ8J5_c&list=PLS5E_VeVNzAstcmbIlygiEFir3tQtlWxx&index=8
Verse and Music:
John 1:3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. Sarah McLachlan - Ordinary Miracle http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqZE4ZDnAkQ
bornagain77
January 14, 2014
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But as to the particular paper you take exception to Lincoln Phipps,,
The Origin of Biological Information and the Higher Taxonomic Categories - Stephen Meyer - 2004 http://www.discovery.org/a/2177
It might interest you to know, Lincoln Phipps, that Dr. Meyer recently published a New York times best seller last summer on the same exact topic,,
Darwin's Doubt - book http://www.darwinsdoubt.com/
And it might further interest you to know, Mr Phipps, that a peer reviewed paper from Darwinists was issued that attempted to refute Dr. Meyer's book:
Stephen Meyer Answers Charles Marshall (Peer Reviewed Paper) on Darwin's Doubt - October 2013 (4 part response) http://www.evolutionnews.org/2013/10/stephen_meyer_r077371.html
And Dr. Meyer, as is typical of the Darwinian thought police, was denied the ability to respond to that paper in the literature,,
The Letter that Science Refused to Publish - November 8, 2013 Excerpt: Stephen Meyer sought the opportunity to reply, in the pages of Science, to UC Berkeley paleontologist Charles Marshall, who reviewed Darwin's Doubt in the same publication. Without explanation, the editors refused to publish the letter. We offer it for your interest. See more at: http://www.evolutionnews.org/2013/11/the_letter_that078871.html
Neverless, Dr. Marshall, unlike many Darwinists, was forthright enough to face Dr. Meyer personally in a debate. Judge for yourself,,,
Steve Meyer vs. hostile reviewer Charles Marshall (audio of debate) - Dec. 1, 2013 https://uncommondescent.com/cambrian-explosion/steve-meyer-vs-hostile-reviewer-charles-marshall-audio/
,,,but in my honest opinion, Dr. Marshall did fair too well in that debate. For me, the main point to learn was, as Meyer pointed out, Marshall hypothesized far past what the evidence is actually telling us abour Devolopmental Gene Regulatory Networks just to protect Darwinism from falsification,,,
A Listener's Guide to the Meyer-Marshall Debate: Focus on the Origin of Information Question -Casey Luskin - December 4, 2013 Excerpt: "There is always an observable consequence if a dGRN (developmental gene regulatory network) subcircuit is interrupted. Since these consequences are always catastrophically bad, flexibility is minimal, and since the subcircuits are all interconnected, the whole network partakes of the quality that there is only one way for things to work. And indeed the embryos of each species develop in only one way." - Eric Davidson http://www.evolutionnews.org/2013/12/a_listeners_gui079811.html Darwin's Doubt (Part 8) by Paul Giem - developmental gene regulatory networks and epigenetic information - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLl6wrqd1e0&list=SPHDSWJBW3DNUaMy2xdaup5ROw3u0_mK8t&index=8
bornagain77
January 14, 2014
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,,and, because many Americans refuse to be bullied and intimidated by the Darwinian thought police, ID now has been able to publish several peer-reviewed papers in the literature,,
Peer-Reviewed & Peer-Edited Scientific Publications Supporting the Theory of Intelligent Design (Annotated) http://www.discovery.org/a/2640 Peer-Reviewed Scientific Literature Building a Compelling Case for ID - podcast - February 2012 http://intelligentdesign.podomatic.com/entry/2012-02-06T17_08_55-08_00 Evolutionary Informatics Lab - Main Publications http://evoinfo.org/publications/ Bio-Complexity Publication Archive http://bio-complexity.org/ojs/index.php/main/issue/archive Biological Information - New Perspectives - Proceedings of the Symposium - published online May 2013 http://www.worldscientific.com/worldscibooks/10.1142/8818#t=toc Dr. David L. Abel (The Gene Emergence Project) - list of published papers http://lifeorigin.academia.edu/DrDavidLAbel/Papers Dr. Tom Woodward interviews all the leading figures of Intelligent Design - audio https://itunes.apple.com/nz/podcast/intelligent-science-intelligent/id737257892# How Do We Know Intelligent Design Is a Scientific "Theory"? - Casey Luskin - October 2011 Excerpt: ID is supported by a vast body of evidence ranging from physics and cosmology to biochemistry to animal biology to systems biology to epigenetics and paleontology. ID more than exceeds the NAS's definitions of "theory." http://www.evolutionnews.org/2011/10/how_do_we_know_intelligent_des051841.html
bornagain77
January 14, 2014
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Lincoln Phipps, in case you are unaware, atheists/materialists are VERY biased against ever letting ID ever get a fair hearing in the peer review literature (or popular press for that matter). Here is one infamous case of systematic bias against ID:
How the Scientific Consensus is Maintained - Granville Sewell (Professor of Mathematics University of Texas - El Paso) - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFMXR6PqGtg
Here are a few other examples of censorship by Darwinists:
Censorship Loses: Never Forget the Story of Biological Information: New Perspectives Casey Luskin - August 20, 2013 http://www.evolutionnews.org/2013/08/censorship_lose075541.html ID theorist Mike Behe was refused a response in Microbe - September 22, 2013 https://uncommondescent.com/irreducible-complexity/id-theorist-mike-behe-was-refused-a-response-in-microbe/
,,,Yet regardless of the systematic bias against ID in the peer-reviewed literature, and in academia in general,,
EXPELLED - Starring Ben Stein - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-BDc3wu81U Slaughter of the Dissidents - Dr. Jerry Bergman - June 2013 - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2v5nAYU2GD0
In spite of these Draconian tactics, the gatekeepers of Darwinian orthodoxy were unable to have complete 'mind control' of everyone in America Academia through their tactics of intimidation,,
Apple - 1984 - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R706isyDrqI
bornagain77
January 14, 2014
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Joe, it's called having integrity. People know it's wrong to cite a withdrawn paper but they still do. The journal slipped up and hopefully everyone has learn from this mistake and it won't happen again.Lincoln Phipps
January 14, 2014
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Actually Shapiro's NGE is in line with Dr Spetner's "non-random evolutionary hypothesis"Joe
January 14, 2014
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bornagain77, nope, Shapiro's NGE will be catastrophic for the ID that most around here subscribe to. We live in the Age of the Bacteria. At 360 times as much genetic information as the human carrying them and 10 times the cell count, the bacteria in our body out number and out count us many times over. We need these to stay alive but they don't really need us. Far from damaging Darwinian evolution, work like Shapiro's will go a long way to solve the evolution of the bacteria and other single cell lifeforms from the first LUCA. It is silly to suggest that a one-size-fits all mechanism is the only mechanism but that's what ID are suggesting.Lincoln Phipps
January 14, 2014
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LP:
Joe, do you admit that when you examine the genome of each generation then it will be different from the previous generation ?
Yes, so do YECs.
That “somethings” (sic) is how from generation to generation there are changes. One mechanism in which changes happen is during meiosis,
No one knows what changes, specifically, and your position cannot account for meiosis.Joe
January 14, 2014
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Lincoln Phipps- The journel will say anything to try to save face- duh. It is that simple, indeed.Joe
January 14, 2014
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Joe, the journal it was published in said, “Accordingly, the Meyer paper does not meet the scientific standards of the Proceedings.” It is that simple.Lincoln Phipps
January 14, 2014
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Joe, do you admit that when you examine the genome of each generation then it will be different from the previous generation ? If you don't accept this then you are not going to get very far. You said “Somethings happened at some point in the past for whatever reason via unknown mechanisms, and here we are.” That "somethings" (sic) is how from generation to generation there are changes. One mechanism in which changes happen is during meiosis, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meiosis Possibly you might have heard about sex. We won't go into any details but it's one mechanism. You asks for a reason for these mechanisms. When something is explained in sufficient detail then How something happens is Why something happens. There are many other sources for change. But I suspect you know what these are and whilst you will find many a scientific paper that says what they are, none will ever conclude God-did-it or anything supernatural is needed.Lincoln Phipps
January 14, 2014
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LP- you have it all backwards. Meyer's paper was spot on. Evos got upset and threw a hissy fit. And true, evos never present any positive evidence for their position. And BTW, design is a mechanism...Joe
January 14, 2014
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The Sternberg peer review controversy highlights the unprofessional ethics of the articles publication, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sternberg_peer_review_controversy It ends up in a, he said, she said, but in the end the journal's view stands and they stated that , "Accordingly, the Meyer paper does not meet the scientific standards of the Proceedings." Paper retraction can happen when the author substantially copies previous work they have done without citing this (it is a misconduct of duplicate publication). Usually a correction would be in order through as the paper doesn't meet the scientific standards of the journal it is in then that's a moot point, http://www.pandasthumb.org/archives/2004/09/meyer_and_deja.html Robert Weitzel correctly characterised Meyer's essay here, http://www.talkreason.org/articles/holy.cfm "Meyer relies almost entirely on negative argument and offers nothing in the way of positive research into the nature - either supernatural or extraterrestrial - of the intelligent designer. Neither does he propose any novel mechanisms by which an intelligent designer might have "engineered" such a diversity of life forms." That's quite a common theme here on Uncommon Descent too. There is always criticism of all and any science but never any positive evidence presented. For some it's the YEC God, for some its a Old Earth God, there may even be Muslims, for others it'll be some kind of Aliens, others have parallel dimensions and some have Quantum Woo and for some they just haven't worked out what it is other than it's not any-one-elses-view of origins.Lincoln Phipps
January 14, 2014
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LP- The alleged theory of evolution: "Somethings happened at some point in the past for whatever reason via unknown mechanisms, and here we are." Joe
January 14, 2014
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kairosfocus, Do you actually know what a sock puppet troll is ? For a start they are anonymous. Like niwrad, nightlight, NetResearchGuy, TSErik, axel, Box, joe, cantor and so on and on.Lincoln Phipps
January 14, 2014
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LP: If you are not as characterised based on what is evident from your pattern of behaviour, kindly show it by not acting like a sock puppet troll. KFkairosfocus
January 14, 2014
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Lincoln Phipps, you try to claim that Pauli's critique of Darwinian Biologists,,,
Nobel Prize-Winning Physicist Wolfgang Pauli on the Empirical Problems with Neo-Darwinism – Casey Luskin – February 27, 2012 Excerpt: While they (Darwinian Biologists) pretend to stay in this way completely ‘scientific’ and ‘rational,’ they become actually very irrational, particularly because they use the word ‘chance’, not any longer combined with estimations of a mathematically defined probability, in its application to very rare single events more or less synonymous with the old word ‘miracle.’” Wolfgang Pauli (pp. 27-28) - http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/02/nobel_prize-win056771.html
,,,has no merit even though in the very next paper you were shown that,,
Evolution and the Illusion of Randomness – Talbott – Fall 2011 Excerpt: In the case of evolution, I picture Dennett and Dawkins filling the blackboard with their vivid descriptions of living, highly regulated, coordinated, integrated, and intensely meaningful biological processes, and then inserting a small, mysterious gap in the middle, along with the words, “Here something random occurs.” This “something random” looks every bit as wishful as the appeal to a miracle. It is the central miracle in a gospel of meaninglessness, a “Randomness of the gaps,” demanding an extraordinarily blind faith. At the very least, we have a right to ask, “Can you be a little more explicit here?” http://www.thenewatlantis.com/publications/evolution-and-the-illusion-of-randomness
,,,shown that the critique still carries its full weight. In fact, although you say that 'the codon structure of DNA wasn’t know(n) until 1959', and that somehow supposedly negates the critique against 'random being equivalent to miracle' in your mind, the fact of the matter is that, quite contrary to what you believe, the discovery of the codon structure of DNA has made the criticism from Pauli, against the word random being synonymous with the word miracle, all the more devastating for Darwinists. In fact Dr. Meyer elucidates how the problem has gotten much worse for Darwinists with the discovery of the codon structure of DNA in the following video. In fact so acute is the problem now that he calls the problem 'The DNA Enigma':
The DNA Enigma - Where Did The Information Come From? - Stephen C. Meyer - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4125886/
Indeed Lincoln Phipps, the more we learn about how changes to DNA codons are actually implemented, the more devastating 'the DNA enigma' becomes for the Darwinian reliance on 'randomness' as an explanation:
Revisiting the Central Dogma in the 21st Century - James A. Shapiro - 2009 Excerpt (Page 12): Underlying the central dogma and conventional views of genome evolution was the idea that the genome is a stable structure that changes rarely and accidentally by chemical fluctuations (106) or replication errors. This view has had to change with the realization that maintenance of genome stability is an active cellular function and the discovery of numerous dedicated biochemical systems for restructuring DNA molecules.(107–110) Genetic change is almost always the result of cellular action on the genome. These natural processes are analogous to human genetic engineering,,, (Page 14) Genome change arises as a consequence of natural genetic engineering, not from accidents. Replication errors and DNA damage are subject to cell surveillance and correction. When DNA damage correction does produce novel genetic structures, natural genetic engineering functions, such as mutator polymerases and nonhomologous end-joining complexes, are involved. Realizing that DNA change is a biochemical process means that it is subject to regulation like other cellular activities. Thus, we expect to see genome change occurring in response to different stimuli (Table 1) and operating nonrandomly throughout the genome, guided by various types of intermolecular contacts (Table 1 of Ref. 112). http://shapiro.bsd.uchicago.edu/Shapiro2009.AnnNYAcadSciMS.RevisitingCentral%20Dogma.pdf Physiology is rocking the foundations of evolutionary biology - Denis Noble - 17 MAY 2013 Excerpt: The ‘Modern Synthesis’ (Neo-Darwinism) is a mid-20th century gene-centric view of evolution, based on random mutations accumulating to produce gradual change through natural selection.,,, We now know that genetic change is far from random and often not gradual.,,, http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1113/expphysiol.2012.071134/abstract “The genome is an ‘organ of the cell’, not its dictator” - Denis Nobel – President of the International Union of Physiological Sciences Serendipity and Exaptation: Circular Arguments - Cornelius Hunter - podcast http://castroller.com/podcasts/IntelligentDesignThe/3708644
bornagain77
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