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The Elephant in the Room

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We are regularly told by proponents of evolutionary theory, from Darwin right up to the present day, that purely natural processes, such as random mutations and natural selection, have the ability to build, construct, fashion, purpose and create remarkable machines. Machines that rival, and in many cases surpass, our most advanced technologies.

We are assured in no uncertain terms that such natural processes have this great creative power. Yet when examples are sought, we are invariably given examples that either did not come about through purely natural processes (see Berra’s Blunder), or examples that are trivial in scope. But nothing that even comes close to verifying the grand claims of the evolutionary creation story.

There is a huge elephant in the room.

Why, if evolutionary processes are so incredibly adept at producing remarkable technologies that surpass our capabilities, do we not see such evolutionary processes being put to good use on a regular basis?

All around the world, every day, millions upon millions of new inventions, designs, projects, programs, and other creations are being pursued. Yet the most awesome creative force of all, so we are assured, is for some reason notably absent. Occasionally someone will claim that evolutionary processes were responsible for creating this or that product (the NASA antenna being the example most often trotted out, even though it is not a proper example of purely natural evolutionary processes). Sometimes someone will assert that an “evolutionary algorithm” has produced something mildly interesting (like the questionable and potentially flawed Avida results touted several years ago in Nature). But by and large, this alleged remarkable creative force is absent, irrelevant, a “no show,” when it comes to actually creating things in the real world.

Now the evolutionary proponent will no doubt argue that the reason is simple: not enough time. Easily impressed with all the zeroes in a number like the billions of years of Earth’s history, the evolutionist reposes faith in the power of deep time to take what is clearly an impotent process in the short term and turn it into the most potent creative force in the long term. But when the actual numbers are reviewed and the actual requirements for construction of functional creations assessed, it becomes clear that those zeroes in the age of the Earth or even the age of the universe are but a rounding error and are unhelpful in addressing the larger issue.

To be sure, a trial-and-error process like random mutations and natural selection can occasionally do something interesting – if there is a large enough population and a strong enough selective pressure. Behe has spent time searching for this “edge of evolution,” while in stark contrast most evolutionists never even bother thinking about what evolutionary processes can actually accomplish in the real world, simply taking it as an article of faith that “with evolution nothing is impossible.”

More to the point, such minor changes even when they do show up do not constitute evidence for the larger evolutionary claims. Particularly when many of the alleged examples of evolution’s power turn out to be, on closer examination, examples of breaking a machine, rather than building it.

So the elephant in the room remains. Design is a critical aspect of our modern lives. Design occurs across the spectrum of disciplines and across the globe on a near constant basis. Yet the most potent creative force that allegedly ever existed, that of evolutionary mechanisms, is noticeable in its near complete absence – dabbling at the fringes, only occasionally participating, rarely influencing, never doing much of any real consequence.

We might be forgiven for wondering if perhaps this is all the evolutionary mechanisms have to contribute.

Or all that they ever did.

Comments
GP @63
So, your “argument” is rather pointless.
More an observation than an argument. If you are happy with multiple, competing designers, fair enough, but you are in something of a minority here. Your examples of trade-off within a single designer's output don't really address the matter. The whole purpose of the tensions between the protagonists in a book or game is to create the dramatic narrative - that which makes the book worth reading, or the game worth playing. Are you saying that the bombardier beetle's unique defence, and the ability of predators to get round it, form the essence of some arcane plot twist in the glorious Game Of Life (TM)? Who is this story for? Us?Hangonasec
February 21, 2015
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Me_Think #15 'Too bad we don’t know who the ID designer is and how he/she/it accomplishes creation and maintenance of billions of cellular processes. We could revolutionize design with such omnipotent power.' Oh, NO, MT. That kind of power in man's hot little hands would be disastrous! What am I saying? It is already destroying the earth, starting with the sea, producing a global catastrophe it's better not to even mention. And that's only a small package of God's power that He has vouchsafed to his incorrigible children. Are you crazy? For goodness sake, we were talking about something innocuous recently, and you saw a connection with a threat of mind control. I mean it's very comical, but it's not really, in its implications for man having divine power, is it?Axel
February 21, 2015
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Hangonasec @ 62 "The Bombadier Beetle. Heh heh. You know that one was debunked about 1980 or so?" The only way to "debunk" is to come up with evidence of the evolution of it's complex defence mechanism one mutation at a time without burning it's backside off. Isaak had a go and come up with quite a story, completely devoid of any evidence. Care to have a go yourself? "I have designed an effective predator. So how do I protect its prey? I know! Defences! Is the defence too effective? OK, let’s have a mechanism for getting round it! I thereby maintain the perfect balance" Exactly, it's called a balanced ecosystem. It was designed that way. "A healthy ecosystem has lots of species diversity and is less likely to be seriously damaged by human interaction, natural disasters and climate changes. Every species has a niche in its ecosystem that helps keep the system healthy. We are learning about new species every day, and we are just figuring out the roles they play in the natural world. By studying and maintaining biodiversity, we help keep our planet healthy." from http://www.nhptv.org/natureworks/nwepecosystems.htm You really need to read up a bit on some real science. CheersCross
February 21, 2015
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Hangonasec: "Of course, Multiple Designer Theory gets round that one, but I doubt most here want to go that way." I certainly do. I have stated many times that we can in no way be sure of how many biological designers exist. I can agree with you that some observed properties of the designed beings could be interpreted as in favor of more than one. But it is not so clear cut. Think, for example, of a video-game. It could have been designed by a single designer (although I think that most are the result of teams). And yet, you can find contrasting parties there, and difficulties and forms of help, which are part of the game, and in the end are the essence of its meaning and value. The same can be said for a book, or a movie, or a painting. All designed things, usually by a single designer. So, your "argument" is rather pointless.gpuccio
February 21, 2015
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The Bombadier Beetle. Heh heh. You know that one was debunked about 1980 or so? But ... one thing we don't tend to find with 'known' designs is elaborate solutions to problems the designers themselves created. I have designed an effective predator. So how do I protect its prey? I know! Defences! Is the defence too effective? OK, let's have a mechanism for getting round it! I thereby maintain the perfect balance, give or take an extinction or two. Because I'm a great one for elaborately unnecessary solutions, me. Of course, Multiple Designer Theory gets round that one, but I doubt most here want to go that way. Or we could try the 'who are we to judge necessity?' tack.Hangonasec
February 21, 2015
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rvb8 @ 59 "If the selective pressure is minimal, for example a stable environment, then the resulting variety of adaptive answers to that environment are minimal" from http://www.nhm.ac.uk/nature-online/environmental-change/what-is-climate-change/past-warming/ "Earth’s unstable climate Life on Earth has flourished and evolved for hundreds of millions of years. However, this does not mean that the climate has been stable throughout this time. Geological data shows evidence of large-scale climate changes in the past, caused by factors like the tilt of the Earth’s axis and tectonic plate movement (as climate is affected by the distribution of the planet’s continents). Some of these changes were gradual; others were much more rapid. Cretaceous world In the mid Cretaceous, about 100 million years ago, the distribution of fossil plants, and large herbivorous dinosaurs, suggests sub-tropical conditions extended to Alaska and Antarctica and there were no polar ice caps. The planet was warmer than today - scientists have estimated it was 6 – 8°C warmer. Carbon dioxide levels in the atmosphere were about 5 times higher than today. These warm conditions lasted for tens of million of years before the climate started cooling. Rapid temperature change The geological record also reveals dramatic events when there was much more rapid climate change. One of the fastest changes in Earth's temperature took place during an event that oceanographers call the Palaeocene-Eocene thermal maximum. 55 million years ago, global temperatures rose 6°C over a period of 20,000 years or less. Like climate change today, scientists think that an increase in greenhouse gases caused this rapid warming. This was possibly due to a catastrophic release of frozen methane deposits - like carbon dioxide, methane is a greenhouse gas. This period of climate change caused major ecosystem changes and extinction of many organisms. The ice ages In the recent geological past, much of Britain was covered by ice sheets. We know this because the landscape shows many distinctive glacial landforms, especially in North Wales, Scotland and the Lake District. Also, fossils of mammoths and woolly rhinoceroses, which lived in cold climates, have been found across southern Britain. This type of evidence, along with marine sediment cores and ice cores, shows that over the past 2 million years, climate fluctuated dramatically between ice ages and warm interglacial periods, similar to today’s climate. These major changes were driven by cyclical changes in the Earth’s orbit, which altered the distribution of solar energy between the seasons and across the Earth. An inescapable conclusion of this is that the Earth’s climate is unstable and minor changes in the Earth's energy budget cause large changes in climate." 100 million years of stable environment, where? CheersCross
February 21, 2015
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rvb8: Evolution requires material changes in environment to allow NS to weed out those prodgeny which are less fit Mung. How lucky for you then that the ability to spell is not a requirement. Unless it is. What a grand theory!Mung
February 20, 2015
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Evolution requires material changes in environment to allow NS to weed out those prodgeny which are less fit Mung. If the selective pressure is minimal, for example a stable environment, then the resulting variety of adaptive answers to that environment are minimal; a shark does not need to be a better shark, it is well suited to its environment. I will continue answering the sillyness here until all of the pretenders realise their failed theory is, well, a failed theory. Oddly enough by any dictionary definition it was never even that.rvb8
February 20, 2015
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Oh dear PaV, We know their environment is static because they did not evolve.Mung
February 20, 2015
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Oh dear PaV, they haven't evolved because their environment is static. Why are crocodiles largely the same as 100 million years ago? No need to their habitat has remained equitable for their reproduction; also the turtle, cockroach, tuatara, and, interestingly enough why monkeys are still in the jungle and not responding to your dimness.rvb8
February 20, 2015
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Mark Frank:
My point was not to debate whether there is enough time for evolution to take place according to neo-darwninian theory.
Of course not. We don't want to actually subject the theory to a TESTABLE HYPOTHESIS! But isn't that sort of the point of the OP?Mung
February 20, 2015
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From the OP:
We are regularly told by proponents of evolutionary theory, from Darwin right up to the present day, that purely natural processes, such as random mutations and natural selection, have the ability to build, construct, fashion, purpose and create remarkable machines. Machines that rival, and in many cases surpass, our most advanced technologies.
And these processes can modeled, using intelligent design! Amazing.Mung
February 20, 2015
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Zachriel: Then why haven't they "evolved"?PaV
February 20, 2015
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PaV: Then we’re looking at 25 throughputs, with mutations, per second. So, in one day you would have 24 hours x 3600 seconds/hour x 25 =2,160,000 throughputs. In a human gut, there are about 10^14 bacteria, of several thousand species, each with a genome of about 10^6, which can replicate every few minutes. Think populations.Zachriel
February 20, 2015
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mark frank:
Creating a solution intentionally is much quicker and you can predict what you are going to get. You reproduce the same old argument about there not being enough time for evolution to do the job. Why dress it up in an argument about us not using evolutionary processes for ourselves?
IBM has a cpu that runs at 155 billion cycles per second. Let's say your running through a string 3 billion characters long, I'm not computer guy, but I would guess that you could run that string through 50 times a second. Then let's say there is a program that 'mutates' the string, and let's say that string is also 3 billion characters long. Then we're looking at 25 throughputs, with mutations, per second. So, in one day you would have 24 hours x 3600 seconds/hour x 25 =2,160,000 throughputs. Wouldn't this be equivalent to 2 million plus replications? Over a week: 15 million. Over a year 180 million replications. Isn't that enough replications for neo-Darwinian evolution to take place? (I hope the computer guys step up and give an accurate view of the numbers involved.)PaV
February 20, 2015
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I just watched the video in comment 1, and laughed out loud. Apparently the greatest evolutionary adaptation ever is on the verge of extinction. So much for natural selection.logically_speaking
February 20, 2015
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‘More real than real’, besides being redundent is that also tautology? Souls and the spiritual realm, how do you get evidence for the immaterial? Hearsay, near death nonsense, my friend’s brother’s, half sister met a boy who said that….
Evidence for the immaterial is by negation - we don't have evidence that certain thing are physical, and yet they exist, so we consider them immaterial. Consciousness, thoughts, aesthetic appreciation, ideas, dreams, memory, inspiration, desire for life-longevity, desire for happiness and love - unending ... lots of things are immaterial. As for life beyond death - why are you so closed to that possibility? Since it's a non-physical state, what kind of evidence would convince you that it's real?
Oh yeah, do Hindus have souls? I really don’t know, or do they only click on line upon revelation in Christ? In that case what point a soul, if you’re not Christian? I sold mine for 5$ to a friend several years ago in a tipsy bet. I have not asked for it back and the repercussions are, nil. I don’t want it back, it’s a load off my mind, heh!
Your soul, among other things, is your conscious identity. Again, we have no evidence that this is a physical entity. What evidence do we have that this thing called "you" exists (as an identity)? Reason: What is the physical evidence that indicates that reason is of any importance or value?Silver Asiatic
February 20, 2015
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Regarding this never-ending OOL debate, here's a recent comment (#509) within a discussion -started by gpuccio's very insightful OP- on a very important area of science: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/antibody-affinity-maturation-as-an-engineering-process-and-other-things/#comment-549436 Personally I don’t know exactly how or when OOL happened, but believe in its supernatural cause. Ancient scriptures (Gen.1; John 1) declare that in the beginning the transcendent Ultimate Reality purposely caused everything that exists, including life. I believe that the whole creation is the general revelation of the Ultimate Reality and that the sacred scriptures are His special revelation to us. I also believe that many won't believe it. For many years I did not believe it either. I was raised and educated within a system that was totally against such a belief. I believe that my current belief has a supernatural cause too. No amount or quality of any kind of education could have done it. That faith must have come from the same transcendent source. No one among us can explain it. As life itself, it's a most wonderful mystery. And I sing hallelujah!Dionisio
February 20, 2015
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Of semi-related interest, wallstreeter43 has just posted a fairly detailed defense of the authenticity of the Shroud of Turin here: https://uncommondescent.com/science/science-writer-many-worlds-quantum-multiverse-as-a-fantasy-verging-on-nihilism/#comment-549413bornagain77
February 20, 2015
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rvb8 @ 44 "this is not evidence, it’s wish fulfillment, you wish it is so and you make it so" Are you sure this does not apply to your view of the Bombardier Beetle creation story? No one else has found it scientific and probable. "there are none more zealous than the converted zealot" You seem very zealous, are you a convert to atheism? CheersCross
February 20, 2015
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rvb8, it is funny that you deny the testimonies of the millions of people who have died for a short while in Near Death Experiences, and have told us that they had survived death, but you readily believe that your brain, which is far more complex than the entire internet combined, came about by unguided material processes,,, even though NO ONE has EVER seen unguided material processes generate ANY non-trivial functional information!?!? ,,, You simply imagine that such unfathomed complexity, as is in your own brain, can arise by unguided processes with no proof whatsoever. Moreover, as pointed out previously at post 43, we have excellent empirical evidence from physics backing up the plausibility that the soul survives death. i.e. the 'physics' of the human body is consistent with the belief that the soul survives death. Thus when you say that there is 'none more proof against reason', I am left to wonder exactly what reason, or observational evidence, have you ever presented that I have not fairly considered?? You, nor any other atheist, has ever presented ANY observation evidence whatsoever for your/their belief that functional information can arise by unguided material processes, and I have presented, not only observational evidence that there is indeed life after death, but also empirical evidence from physics that the physics within the human body is consistent with those testimonies.
https://uncommondescent.com/darwinism/1-dawkins-wants-to-land-porn-on-muslim-world-2-dawkins-yawnfest-has-just-got-to-stop/#comment-545518 Correlations in special relativity with Near Death Testimonies. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/mathematician-planck-data-disappoints-multiverse-claims/#comment-548563
Thus rvb8 why do you resolutely defend something for which you have no proof, and indeed for which you only imagine to be true, and steadfastly reject that for which we have excellent proof and reason to believe? There simply is no 'reason' in this. Verse:
Mark 16:14 Later Jesus appeared to the Eleven as they were eating; he rebuked them for their lack of faith and their stubborn refusal to believe those who had seen him after he had risen.
Of related note:
Scientists say Turin Shroud is supernatural - December 2011 Excerpt: After years of work trying to replicate the colouring on the shroud, a similar image has been created by the scientists. However, they only managed the effect by scorching equivalent linen material with high-intensity ultra violet lasers, undermining the arguments of other research, they say, which claims the Turin Shroud is a medieval hoax. Such technology, say researchers from the National Agency for New Technologies, Energy and Sustainable Economic Development (Enea), was far beyond the capability of medieval forgers, whom most experts have credited with making the famous relic. "The results show that a short and intense burst of UV directional radiation can colour a linen cloth so as to reproduce many of the peculiar characteristics of the body image on the Shroud of Turin," they said. And in case there was any doubt about the preternatural degree of energy needed to make such distinct marks, the Enea report spells it out: "This degree of power cannot be reproduced by any normal UV source built to date." http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/scientists-say-turin-shroud-is-supernatural-6279512.html
If scientists want to find the source for the supernatural light which made the "3D - photographic negative" image on the Shroud I suggest they look to the thousands of documented Near-Death Experiences (NDE's) in Judeo-Christian cultures. It is in their testimonies that you will find mention of an indescribably bright 'Light' or 'Being of Light' who is always described as being of a much brighter intensity of light than the people had ever seen before.
Ask the Experts: What Is a Near-Death Experience (NDE)? - article with video Excerpt: "Very often as they're moving through the tunnel, there's a very bright mystical light ... not like a light we're used to in our earthly lives. People call this mystical light, brilliant like a million times a million suns..." - Jeffery Long M.D. - has studied NDE's extensively http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/beyondbelief/experts-death-experience/story?id=14221154#.T_gydvW8jbI "Suddenly, I was enveloped in this brilliant golden light. The light was more brilliant that the light emanating from the sun, many times more powerful and radiant than the sun itself. Yet, I was not blinded by it nor burned by it. Instead, the light was a source of energy that embraced my being." Ned Dougherty's - Fast Lane To Heaven - Quoted from "To Heaven and Back" pg. 71 - Mary C. Neal MD Life After Life - Raymond Moody - Near Death Experience – The Tunnel, The Light, The Life Review – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z56u4wMxNlg
All people who have been in the presence of 'The Being of Light', while having a deep NDE, have no doubt whatsoever that the 'The Being of Light' they were in the presence of is none other than 'The Lord God Almighty' of heaven and earth.
In The Presence Of Almighty God – The NDE of Mickey Robinson – video https://vimeo.com/92172680
Verse and Music:
Acts 26:13-15 at midday, O king, along the road I saw a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, shining around me and those who journeyed with me. And when we all had fallen to the ground, I heard a voice speaking to me and saying in the Hebrew language, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.’ So I said, ‘Who are You, Lord?’ And He said, ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. Toby Mac (In The Light) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_MpGRQRrP0
bornagain77
February 20, 2015
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rvb8: I like your style. At least, you are not boring. However, you are probably too passionate in your personal faith to make a real argument. You say: " add to this that powerful weeder out of uselessness, Natural Selection, and the steps seem probable." Well, deciding what is probable and what is not is probably one of the most intimate free choices in an individual's life. I respect yours, even if you seem not too respectful of others'.gpuccio
February 20, 2015
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'More real than real', besides being redundent is that also tautology? Souls and the spiritual realm, how do you get evidence for the immaterial? Hearsay, near death nonsense, my friend's brother's, half sister met a boy who said that.... BA this is not evidence, it's wish fulfillment, you wish it is so and you make it so, kind of like ID. 'More observational evidence for the reality of souls..', where? youtube, www.soulsarereal.com, www.isawaghost.org, or any of your other pointless non-evidence sites. Oh yeah, do Hindus have souls? I really don't know, or do they only click on line upon revelation in Christ? In that case what point a soul, if you're not Christian? I sold mine for 5$ to a friend several years ago in a tipsy bet. I have not asked for it back and the repercussions are, nil. I don't want it back, it's a load off my mind, heh! Save me a 10000 word ideological rant, there are none more zealous than the converted zealot, or none more proof aghainst reason.rvb8
February 19, 2015
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Actually rvb8, contrary to what you imagine to be true, your soul and the spiritual realm are 'even more real than real'. In fact, we have far more observational evidence for the reality of souls than we do for the Darwinian claim that unguided material processes can generate sophisticated functional information: https://uncommondescent.com/darwinism/1-dawkins-wants-to-land-porn-on-muslim-world-2-dawkins-yawnfest-has-just-got-to-stop/#comment-545518bornagain77
February 19, 2015
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BA, the 'you' was Cross, the 'me' was me. Sorry for the confusion. Being an atheist and a materialist I understand the 'you' far better than the religiously inclined, as I know that 'you' are a physical being made of material. I can see and fondle (heh!) physical beings, and I enjoy it immensely. This spiritual life however is problematic. You BA, say i have no idea of the 'you', and yet what you talk to isn't there. You BA, speak to thin air and try to convince me something is listening. It would quite clearly appear it is you who does not understand identity and we materialists who understand identity most intimately. I hope you and god have a nice day.rvb8
February 19, 2015
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Mark Frank @ 40 "Whether there is enough time for these techniques to create life over 4 billion years is a different question." If something is impossible to evolve step by step, no amount of time makes it possible. The Bombardier Beetle is impossible to evolve by RV + NS. At many steps the poor thing would burn its backside off waiting for a hopeful mutation. The magic of a lot of time does not solve the issue. CheersCross
February 19, 2015
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#38 EA My point was not to debate whether there is enough time for evolution to take place according to neo-darwninian theory. That debate has been had many, many times. I was addressing your OP. We have not used neo-darwinian techniques to address our own problems because there isn't enough time. Whether there is enough time for these techniques to create life over 4 billion years is a different question.Mark Frank
February 19, 2015
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All of the steps you describe (and no doubt many you missed) seem quite scientific to me, add to this that powerful weeder out of uselessness, Natural Selection, and the steps seem probable.
And therein lies one of the key differences. Some of us would like actual evidence, an actual biology-based and engineering-based explanation. Even a semi-detailed approach would be nice. Others are easily impressed with vague generalities (notice none of the steps included actual biochemical or engineering-quality analysis) and general assertions. Stuff happens and natural selection keeps the good stuff. Sure. The Great Evolutionary Explanation: Stuff Happens.Eric Anderson
February 19, 2015
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Mark Frank @31: Precisely on cue and as predicted, I said the evolutionary response would be deep time. The reason we don't see evolution working at a practical level all around us today is the lack of time. Sure, I understand that is the theory. But it is not an explanation of how any of it could actually work, just an appeal to the idea that it takes a lot of time. Which is neither an explanation nor evidence, but rather just a restatement of the theory. Furthermore, deep time, as I also noted, is but a rounding error. People who don't think through the issues carefully are easily impressed with millions or even billions of years. Yet such timeframes are completely impotent to produce what is alleged. And deep time certainly doesn't explain the utterly critical how of the creation's production, other than the facile and naive "Well, you know, it takes a long time." Traditional evolutionary theory is very convenient in that the alleged wonderful changes always seem to be occurring just outside of our ability to observe. Gould even made a name for himself by centralizing this idea in his punctuated equilibrium concept: evolution generally happens just out of reach of our observations. Then when a skeptical person points out the lack of observational evidence, the evolutionist says, in effect, "Of course there isn't observational evidence. Evolution usually happens when and where we can't observe it. We shouldn't expect any observational evidence. That is just what my theory predicts!"Eric Anderson
February 19, 2015
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With regards to the Bombardier beetle and many other examples like it; I have no idea how anyone who claims to be interested in the sciences or worse still an actual paid scientist could ever be even remotely satisfied with the number of maybe/possibly/might/could 's that need to be invoked to explain what we observe in nature. That just doesn't cut the mustard for me - yet for seeking better explanations I get labelled as anti-science :( Even back when I was in education studying Maths and the Sciences, if ever I was told something was true "just because" I was never happy to accept those and am still the same now.bw
February 19, 2015
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