Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

The Elephant in the Room

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We are regularly told by proponents of evolutionary theory, from Darwin right up to the present day, that purely natural processes, such as random mutations and natural selection, have the ability to build, construct, fashion, purpose and create remarkable machines. Machines that rival, and in many cases surpass, our most advanced technologies.

We are assured in no uncertain terms that such natural processes have this great creative power. Yet when examples are sought, we are invariably given examples that either did not come about through purely natural processes (see Berra’s Blunder), or examples that are trivial in scope. But nothing that even comes close to verifying the grand claims of the evolutionary creation story.

There is a huge elephant in the room.

Why, if evolutionary processes are so incredibly adept at producing remarkable technologies that surpass our capabilities, do we not see such evolutionary processes being put to good use on a regular basis?

All around the world, every day, millions upon millions of new inventions, designs, projects, programs, and other creations are being pursued. Yet the most awesome creative force of all, so we are assured, is for some reason notably absent. Occasionally someone will claim that evolutionary processes were responsible for creating this or that product (the NASA antenna being the example most often trotted out, even though it is not a proper example of purely natural evolutionary processes). Sometimes someone will assert that an “evolutionary algorithm” has produced something mildly interesting (like the questionable and potentially flawed Avida results touted several years ago in Nature). But by and large, this alleged remarkable creative force is absent, irrelevant, a “no show,” when it comes to actually creating things in the real world.

Now the evolutionary proponent will no doubt argue that the reason is simple: not enough time. Easily impressed with all the zeroes in a number like the billions of years of Earth’s history, the evolutionist reposes faith in the power of deep time to take what is clearly an impotent process in the short term and turn it into the most potent creative force in the long term. But when the actual numbers are reviewed and the actual requirements for construction of functional creations assessed, it becomes clear that those zeroes in the age of the Earth or even the age of the universe are but a rounding error and are unhelpful in addressing the larger issue.

To be sure, a trial-and-error process like random mutations and natural selection can occasionally do something interesting – if there is a large enough population and a strong enough selective pressure. Behe has spent time searching for this “edge of evolution,” while in stark contrast most evolutionists never even bother thinking about what evolutionary processes can actually accomplish in the real world, simply taking it as an article of faith that “with evolution nothing is impossible.”

More to the point, such minor changes even when they do show up do not constitute evidence for the larger evolutionary claims. Particularly when many of the alleged examples of evolution’s power turn out to be, on closer examination, examples of breaking a machine, rather than building it.

So the elephant in the room remains. Design is a critical aspect of our modern lives. Design occurs across the spectrum of disciplines and across the globe on a near constant basis. Yet the most potent creative force that allegedly ever existed, that of evolutionary mechanisms, is noticeable in its near complete absence – dabbling at the fringes, only occasionally participating, rarely influencing, never doing much of any real consequence.

We might be forgiven for wondering if perhaps this is all the evolutionary mechanisms have to contribute.

Or all that they ever did.

Comments
rvb8 @ 33 Why the fixation on the complexity of the Bombardier beetle? Because its defence mechanism is a good example of irreducible complexity. I thought you lot were just as flabbergasted by the infamous flagellum. No, I'm impressed by all the creation. You look at DNA and look no further. Actually I'm a fan of science, have been for many years, just not a fan of what passes for science these days. Your argument seems to be one of refusing to follow where the evidence leads, or more sadly trying to get everyone else to become members of your anticuriosity league. I'm happy to follow where real evidence leads, as BA77 has pointed out above, Isaak's story contains no actual empirical evidence. All of the steps you describe (and no doubt many you missed) seem quite scientific to me, Disturbing. add to this that powerful weeder out of uselessness, Natural Selection, and the steps seem probable. Really disturbing. Using sarcastic language does not an argument make. And neither do just-so stories with no evidence. CheersCross
February 19, 2015
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InVivoVeritas: It is just simple, 5 years old kids’ logic.
Obviously.sparc
February 19, 2015
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as to: "All of the steps you describe (and no doubt many you missed) seem quite scientific to me, add to this that powerful weeder out of uselessness, Natural Selection, and the steps seem probable." So 'you', (although there is no 'you' in atheistic materialism), subjectively think that it 'seems' scientific to you? and also 'you' subjectively think the steps 'seem probable'? But that is the entire problem that Eric has pointed out. You have no actual empirical evidence that the steps actually are probable or that molecular machines that rival and surpass man-made machines can be had by unguided material processes. Your subjective opinion is just that, your own personal subjective opinion! (i.e. an unsubstantiated belief, a position of blind faith in the power deep time and chance to work miracles that would make the blind faith suicide bombers seem rational.)bornagain77
February 19, 2015
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Cross, Why the fixation on the complexity of the Bombardier beetle? I thought you lot were just as flabbergasted by the infamous flagellum. You look at DNA and look no further. Your argument seems to be one of refusing to follow where the evidence leads, or more sadly trying to get everyone else to become members of your anticuriosity league. All of the steps you describe (and no doubt many you missed) seem quite scientific to me, add to this that powerful weeder out of uselessness, Natural Selection, and the steps seem probable. Using sarcastic language does not an argument make.rvb8
February 19, 2015
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Eric Anderson @ 30 Yes, perhaps Isaak has missed his calling as a writer of children's stories like Kipling. In any case, maybe even rvb8 is embarrassed as he seems to be avoiding the story altogether. CheersCross
February 18, 2015
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Why, if evolutionary processes are so incredibly adept at producing remarkable technologies that surpass our capabilities, do we not see such evolutionary processes being put to good use on a regular basis?
They are not incredibly adept. They are very slow and unpredictable. But given enough time they produce solutions. Creating a solution intentionally is much quicker and you can predict what you are going to get. You reproduce the same old argument about there not being enough time for evolution to do the job.   Why dress it up in an argument about us not using evolutionary processes for ourselves?Mark Frank
February 18, 2015
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Cross @5: It is embarrassing to see Mark Isaak post his made up story as though it constituted some kind of explanation. Reminds me of Matzke's "explanation" for the bacterial flagellum. If I didn't know better, I would think these kinds of writings were parodies, rather than the serious attempts to reassure the faithful that they are. Berlinski in his most famous essay had to remind the reader that the descriptions of the evolutionary storyline were not a parody, but the real deal. I'm looking at a tome of Kipling's just-so stories on my shelf. Isaak is in good company.Eric Anderson
February 18, 2015
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The only logical way in which natural selection might make some sense vis-à-vis to random mutations is this:
Organisms that have suffered no mutations (or far fewer mutations then others) have better chances of survival.
Let’s make it even clearer for evolutionists:
The organisms with no mutations are selected for survival.
And let’s do the thinking for them also (I don’t trust them as being able to logically connect premises to conclusions):
There is no Darwinian evolution.
And no, I did not appeal to the Bible to reach this conclusion. It is just simple, 5 years old kids’ logic. Elementary my dear Watson!InVivoVeritas
February 18, 2015
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rvb8- unguided evolution doesn't have any answers. Also ID is not anti-evolution- ID is OK with evolution by intelligent design- tat is organisms were intelligently designed to evolve. No one is arguing about mere evolution. BTW programmers put those ones and zeros on the buss lines and they control the gates. And unlike you I understand what information is.Joe
February 18, 2015
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rvb8 @ 23 "Computer programmers do not maintain billions of ones and zeros, they are maintained by electrons which when allowed to pass a gate, or not, are given the purely man made notation of a one or a zero. That is, physical understandable, testable material things maintain the ones and zeros, these in turn create the information you stand so pompously, in stupefied, knuckle dragging awe of." The programmers (Intelligent agents) create the Information, the physical system only stores the representation of the information according to the way the designers created it. Joe, I'm guessing rvb8 does not get the irony of this. CheersCross
February 18, 2015
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rvb8 @ 23 "Unlike creationism it requires no faith" Lol, the creation of the Bombardier Beetle has so many gaps that you have to "believe" evolution magically filled you do indeed require a lot of faith. Faith in the evo-of-the-gaps is strong in this one. CheersCross
February 18, 2015
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I'm getting tired of a bunch of brain-dead Darwinists acting like they invented science and that science belongs to them. Give it a rest. It's getting old and it shows you as a bunch of arrogant morons.Mapou
February 18, 2015
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Is there a single evidence for Darwinian evolution that cannot be easily explained by intelligent design? The inconvenient truth is that Darwinian evolution cannot explain complex functional systems. Such systems require intelligent planning. Even children can understand this after playing with Lego blocks.Mapou
February 18, 2015
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Joe, Science is that which gives promising answers to questions of natural phenomena. Unlike creationism it requires no faith, still less your tiresome emotional baggage joe. A dictionary might help Joe; in what way is 'Evolution remains a fully evidence based scientific theory', equivocation? There is no ambiguity in my statement. Perhaps I should understand science more deeply, however you should start with what words mean. One more thing Joe, computer programmers do not maintain billions of ones and zeros, they are maintained by electrons which when allowed to pass a gate, or not, are given the purely man made notation of a one or a zero. That is, physical understandable, testable material things maintain the ones and zeros, these in turn create the information you stand so pompously, in stupefied, knuckle dragging awe of.rvb8
February 18, 2015
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Me_Think:
Too bad we don’t know who the ID designer is and how he/she/it accomplishes creation and maintenance of billions of cellular processes. We could revolutionize design with such omnipotent power.
There is nothing really mysterious about intelligent design. Take modern software design, for example. It is a hierarchical process: complex objects are made of simpler objects. It's called design through inheritance. This can lead to extremely complex systems over time. The same thing is observed in nature. Complex organisms are organized hierarchically. I have no problem sharing genetic material with apes, birds, fish, plants, bugs and germs. We, humans, are the pinnacle of genetic design and engineering. And why must genetic design require omnipotent power, pray tell? I can easily imagine an extremely advanced civilization designing life on earth. I can imagine the human species doing the same thing over a couple of hundred millions years. (We, too, are gods.) One more thing. Instead of continually harping on who the designer is, like a neurotic parrot, why don't you tell us how life on earth originated according to materialism, so we can all marvel at your great wisdom? How did the first self-replicating genome come about? Let's hear it, Mr. Smartypants.Mapou
February 18, 2015
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rvb8
Nevertheless, Evolution remains a fully evidence based scientific theory
Nice equivocation. Unguided evolution can't even be tested. Do science or shut up, rvb8- first you have to demonstrate that you understand what science is.Joe
February 18, 2015
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Me Think
Too bad we don’t know who the ID designer is and how he/she/it accomplishes creation and maintenance of billions of cellular processes.
Geez computer programmers maintain billions of ones and zeros
We could revolutionize design with such omnipotent power.
As if knowing how something was done means we could do it.Joe
February 18, 2015
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JDH @ 16
Speak for yourself, I happen to know who the ID designer is. He does not share his power with people who wouldn’t have the foggiest idea what to do with it
Well, now look who is admitting ID is creationism.Me_Think
February 18, 2015
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rvb8 @ 17 So the creation story of the Bombardier Beetle is science? I would have used it as a bed time story when my kids were younger except there is far too much invagination going on and I fear my constant laughing would keep them awake. CheersCross
February 18, 2015
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Nevertheless, Evolution remains a fully evidence based scientific theory, along the lines of Germ Theory, Gravitation, and Relativity. Harping on about its failings (there are many, as you would expect, missing links in this evolving field)only begs the question; What do you have? Behe, Dembsky (gone missing apparently), No Free Lunch(aah, down home folksy wisdom), Wells (Heh!) and....... All these words to say, "I simply can't believe it..." So what, do science or shut up! Can you not get this simple idea through your collective dense skulls; Science depends upon results, evidence, and promising areas for further research, all of which Evolution has, all of which creationism doesn't. P.S. I've given up on using the pointless title ID as it really just means Christian Creationism. According to Phillip Johnson, one of your High Priests, he believes that for all of Evoution's faults it is at least a fully worked out science; he is of course fully correct!rvb8
February 18, 2015
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Me_Think - Speak for yourself, I happen to know who the ID designer is. He does not share his power with people who wouldn't have the foggiest idea what to do with it.JDH
February 18, 2015
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Too bad we don't know who the ID designer is and how he/she/it accomplishes creation and maintenance of billions of cellular processes. We could revolutionize design with such omnipotent power.Me_Think
February 18, 2015
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bw @ 1 It occurs to me that your comment may be sarcasm. If it is, it sounds too much like a real darwinist. I have to admit though I did not think of that before I responded with the following.
Another example in nature that proves the amazing power of random mutations and natural selection.
Congratulations! You are a winner for the "cyclic reasoning, video does nothing to support your conclusions unless you assume the premise" award.JDH
February 18, 2015
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BA77 @ 10 Enjoyed the Kutless video. CheersCross
February 18, 2015
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ppolish @ 6 And the snake with the "bird like" tail soon went extinct, it kept eating itself. ;) CheersCross
February 18, 2015
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Box @ 8 I bothers me too, but I think the problem is we don't have the right "religion", people of the materialist evolution religion (or Evo of the gaps)take this stuff "by faith". CheersCross
February 18, 2015
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As to the more sophisticated programs that are used in engineering:
Applied Darwinism: A New Paper from Bob Marks (W. Dembski) and His Team, in BIO-Complexity - Doug Axe - 2012 Excerpt: Furthermore, if you dig a bit beyond these papers and look at what kinds of problems this technique (Steiner Tree) is being used for in the engineering world, you quickly find that it is of extremely limited applicability. It works for tasks that are easily accomplished in a huge number of specific ways, but where someone would have to do a lot of mindless fiddling to decide which of these ways is best.,, That's helpful in the sense that we commonly find computers helpful -- they do what we tell them to do very efficiently, without complaining. But in biology we see something altogether different. We see elegant solutions to millions of engineering problems that human ingenuity cannot even begin to solve. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/04/applied_darwini058591.html There is absolutely nothing surprising about the results of these algorithms. The computer is programmed from the outset to converge on the solution. The programmer designed to do that. What would be surprising is if the program didn't converge on the solution. That would reflect badly on the skill of the programmer. Everything interesting in the output of the program came as a result of the programmer's skill-the information input. There are no mysterious outputs. Software Engineer - quoted to Stephen Meyer Climbing the Steiner Tree--Sources of Active Information in a Genetic Algorithm for Solving the Euclidean Steiner Tree Problem - 2012 - Winston Ewert, William A Dembski, Robert J Marks II http://bio-complexity.org/ojs/index.php/main/article/view/50 A.I. Has Grown Up and Left Home - Dec. 19, 2013 Excerpt: For example, genetic approaches represent algorithms with varying parameters as chromosomal “strings,” and “breed” successful algorithms with one another. These approaches do not improve through better understanding of the problem. All that matters is the fitness of the algorithm with respect to its environment—in other words, how the algorithm behaves. This black-box approach has yielded successful applications in everything from bioinformatics to economics, yet one can never give a concise explanation of just why the fittest algorithm is the most fit. Neural networks are another successful subsymbolic technology, and are used for image, facial, and voice recognition applications. No representation of concepts is hardcoded into them, and the factors that they use to identify a particular subclass of images emerge from the operation of the algorithm itself. http://nautil.us/issue/8/home/ai-has-grown-up-and-left-home
Why there is a limit to what computers can do is stated here:
Algorithmic Information Theory, Free Will and the Turing Test – Douglas S. Robertson Excerpt: The basic problem concerning the relation between AIT (Algorithmic Information Theory) and free will can be stated succinctly: Since the theorems of mathematics cannot contain more information than is contained in the axioms used to derive those theorems, it follows that no formal operation in mathematics (and equivalently, no operation performed by a computer) can create new information. "For example, the famous “Turing test” for artificial intelligence could be defeated by simply asking for a new axiom in mathematics. Human mathematicians are able to create axioms, but a computer program cannot do this without violating information conservation. Creating new axioms and free will are shown to be different aspects of the same phenomena: the creation of new information." http://cires.colorado.edu/~doug/philosophy/info8.pdf The Limits Of Reason – Gregory Chaitin – 2006 Excerpt: an infinite number of true mathematical theorems exist that cannot be proved from any finite system of axioms.,,, http://www.umcs.maine.edu/~chaitin/sciamer3.pdf Kurt Gödel - Incompleteness Theorem - video https://vimeo.com/96082228 Alan Turing & Kurt Godel - Incompleteness Theorem and Human Intuition - video https://vimeo.com/92387854 "Either mathematics is too big for the human mind or the human mind is more than a machine" Kurt Gödel
And despite this severe limit on natural processes to ever create algoritmic infomation, there are found to be 'countless thousands of intricate algorithms' in life:
To the skeptic, the proposition that the genetic programmes of higher organisms, consisting of something close to a thousand million bits of information, equivalent to the sequence of letters in a small library of one thousand volumes, containing in encoded form countless thousands of intricate algorithms controlling, specifying and ordering the growth and development of billions and billions of cells into the form of a complex organism, were composed by a purely random process is simply an affront to reason. But to the Darwinist the idea is accepted without a ripple of doubt – the paradigm takes precedence!” Michael Denton, Evolution: A Theory In Crisis
Verse and Music:
John 1:1-4 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. Kutless Performs "In Jesus' Name" Acoustic and Unplugged https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDwjTURYZxs
bornagain77
February 18, 2015
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As to Avida, here is a recent video that shows that Avida, when using realistic biological parameters as its default settings, instead of using highly unrealistic default settings as it currently does, actually supports Genetic Entropy instead of Darwinian evolution:
Biological Information - Mendel's Accountant and Avida 1-31-2015 by Paul Giem https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGd0pznOh0A&list=PLHDSWJBW3DNUUhiC9VwPnhl-ymuObyTWJ&index=14
Of related note:
Panda’s Thumb Richard Hoppe forgot about Humpty Zombie - April 15, 2014 Excerpt: I discovered if you crank up Avida’s cosmic radiation parameter to maximum and have the Avida genomes utterly scrambled, the Avidian organisms still kept reproducing. If I recall correctly, they died if the radiation was moderate, but just crank it to the max and the creatures come back to life! This would be like putting dogs in a microwave oven for 3 days, running it at full blast, and then demanding they reproduce. And guess what, the little Avida critters reproduced. This little discovery in Avida 1.6 was unfortunately not reported in Nature. Why? It was a far more stupendous discovery! Do you think it’s too late for Richard Hoppe and I to co-author a submission? Hoppe eventually capitulated that there was indeed this feature of Avida. To his credit he sent a letter to Dr. Adami to inform him of the discovery. Dr. Adami sent Evan Dorn to the Access Research Network forum, and Evan confirmed the feature by posting a reply there. http://www.creationevolutionuniversity.com/idcs/?p=90
Of supplemental note:
LIFE’S CONSERVATION LAW - William Dembski - Robert Marks - Pg. 13 Excerpt: (Computer) Simulations such as Dawkins’s WEASEL, Adami’s AVIDA, Ray’s Tierra, and Schneider’s ev appear to support Darwinian evolution, but only for lack of clear accounting practices that track the information smuggled into them.,,, Information does not magically materialize. It can be created by intelligence or it can be shunted around by natural forces. But natural forces, and Darwinian processes in particular, do not create information. Active information enables us to see why this is the case. http://evoinfo.org/publications/lifes-conservation-law/ Evolutionary Synthesis of Nand Logic: Dissecting a Digital Organism - Dembski - Marks - Dec. 2009 Excerpt: The effectiveness of a given algorithm can be measured by the active information introduced to the search. We illustrate this by identifying sources of active information in Avida, a software program designed to search for logic functions using nand gates. Avida uses stair step active information by rewarding logic functions using a smaller number of nands to construct functions requiring more. Removing stair steps deteriorates Avida’s performance while removing deleterious instructions improves it. http://evoinfo.org/publications/evolutionary-synthesis-of-nand-logic-avida/
bornagain77
February 18, 2015
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Cross #5, My lack of imagination bothers me. I cannot even imagine how blind unreasonable random stuff brings one cell into existence. And even if this happened - for no reason at all - I cannot envision why such a cell doesn't fall apart the very next moment. My problem is that in my understanding of materialism it offers absolutely no cause - no reason, no force - that creates and sustains life. And in my book one cannot explain an effect without a cause.Box
February 18, 2015
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Mapou @ 3 I agree, in fact I recently rewatched a movie called "Idiocracy". In it the population have dumbed down over a period of time leaving morons behind. It is obviously a comedy and when I first watched it many years ago I didn't think much of it. These days I recognise the prophetic message as well as this very fate rearing its ugly head. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0387808/?ref_=nv_sr_1humbled
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