Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

The Elephant in the Room

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We are regularly told by proponents of evolutionary theory, from Darwin right up to the present day, that purely natural processes, such as random mutations and natural selection, have the ability to build, construct, fashion, purpose and create remarkable machines. Machines that rival, and in many cases surpass, our most advanced technologies.

We are assured in no uncertain terms that such natural processes have this great creative power. Yet when examples are sought, we are invariably given examples that either did not come about through purely natural processes (see Berra’s Blunder), or examples that are trivial in scope. But nothing that even comes close to verifying the grand claims of the evolutionary creation story.

There is a huge elephant in the room.

Why, if evolutionary processes are so incredibly adept at producing remarkable technologies that surpass our capabilities, do we not see such evolutionary processes being put to good use on a regular basis?

All around the world, every day, millions upon millions of new inventions, designs, projects, programs, and other creations are being pursued. Yet the most awesome creative force of all, so we are assured, is for some reason notably absent. Occasionally someone will claim that evolutionary processes were responsible for creating this or that product (the NASA antenna being the example most often trotted out, even though it is not a proper example of purely natural evolutionary processes). Sometimes someone will assert that an “evolutionary algorithm” has produced something mildly interesting (like the questionable and potentially flawed Avida results touted several years ago in Nature). But by and large, this alleged remarkable creative force is absent, irrelevant, a “no show,” when it comes to actually creating things in the real world.

Now the evolutionary proponent will no doubt argue that the reason is simple: not enough time. Easily impressed with all the zeroes in a number like the billions of years of Earth’s history, the evolutionist reposes faith in the power of deep time to take what is clearly an impotent process in the short term and turn it into the most potent creative force in the long term. But when the actual numbers are reviewed and the actual requirements for construction of functional creations assessed, it becomes clear that those zeroes in the age of the Earth or even the age of the universe are but a rounding error and are unhelpful in addressing the larger issue.

To be sure, a trial-and-error process like random mutations and natural selection can occasionally do something interesting – if there is a large enough population and a strong enough selective pressure. Behe has spent time searching for this “edge of evolution,” while in stark contrast most evolutionists never even bother thinking about what evolutionary processes can actually accomplish in the real world, simply taking it as an article of faith that “with evolution nothing is impossible.”

More to the point, such minor changes even when they do show up do not constitute evidence for the larger evolutionary claims. Particularly when many of the alleged examples of evolution’s power turn out to be, on closer examination, examples of breaking a machine, rather than building it.

So the elephant in the room remains. Design is a critical aspect of our modern lives. Design occurs across the spectrum of disciplines and across the globe on a near constant basis. Yet the most potent creative force that allegedly ever existed, that of evolutionary mechanisms, is noticeable in its near complete absence – dabbling at the fringes, only occasionally participating, rarely influencing, never doing much of any real consequence.

We might be forgiven for wondering if perhaps this is all the evolutionary mechanisms have to contribute.

Or all that they ever did.

Comments
gpuccio: You can find anything with a suitable oracle. While you didn't introduce word evolution, we were responding to your own statements on the subject, such as "So, even if you say that it is rather easy to go from FLOUR to BREAD (but please, see next point), is it equally “easy” to go from QUIXOTICALLY to EXTEMPORIZER?" gpuccio: The nested hierarchy showing common descent is evidence of common descent, and of nothing else. Common descent provides the historical context, including the contours of evolutionary change. gpuccio: What are the “selection gradients for protein function” in Lenski’s experiment? Not sure your question. Mutation and selection results in improved function, showing there is a stepwise path from low function to high function. gpuccio: Of nylonase we have already discussed in detail (with Piotr, in particular). Are you saying nylonase was not a new function?Zachriel
March 1, 2015
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gpuccio- Please don't be fooled by Zachriel's ignorance. Common descent does NOT predict a nested hierarchy and evos since Darwin have been saying it does not. Only the willfully ignorant think common descent predicts a nested hierarchy.Joe
March 1, 2015
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Zacho:
The primary evidence is the nested hierarchy showing common descent
You are deluded, ignorant or a liar. Given evolution we should not expect a nested hierarchy.Joe
March 1, 2015
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Zachriel: You can find anything with a suitable oracle. I have no doubt that you can find the whole Hamlet text by random variation, if you just use Hamlet as an oracle. Do you really believe that such things are evidence of something? The nested hierarchy showing common descent is evidence of common descent, and of nothing else. So much for your "primary evidence". What are the "selection gradients for protein function" in Lenski’s experiment? Of nylonase we have already discussed in detail (with Piotr, in particular). If I were you, I would avoid mentioning it at all. :)gpuccio
March 1, 2015
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gpuccio: a) I believe that, in all functional spaces, the search space grows faster than the functional space, as the “length” of the information unit increases. Much faster. Sure. gpuccio: A very simple consequence of that is that the functional complexity of an information unit is bound to increase with the length of the unit, even if with some great residual variance. Not necessarily. That would depend on the landscape, such as whether it was rolling hills or jagged peaks. gpuccio: Another consequence is that any eventual natural network of “connections” between functional values, if present, is bound to be drastically “diluted” as the length of the information unit increases, leading to isolated functional islands even when for short units some connections existed. Again, not necessarily the case. A landscape may include tiny islands or vast continents. gpuccio: So, even if you say that it is rather easy to go from FLOUR to BREAD (but please, see next point), is it equally “easy” to go from QUIXOTICALLY to EXTEMPORIZER? With word evolution—populations of words subject to mutation and recombination—even longer words can evolve. The potential space of a 14-letter word is over 100 million trillion. We have used a quite inefficient computer algorithm to evolve many 14-letter words in just minutes. Even though there are ~29,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 possible 18 letter combinations, and only 3786 such words in our dictionary, the program found "denominationalists" in less than the lifetime of a mayfly. gpuccio: b) Another very important point. You can “easily” go from FLOUR to BREAD (two states which are not connected at sequence level) through the steps you highlighted, but only if each of the intermediate steps is “selectable”. That's right. Again, whether they are connected depends on the landscape. gpuccio: I would like to remind that the only oracle admitted in the neo darwinian algorithm is NS, and that NS can only recognize a reproductive advantage, and nothing else. Of course. The primary evidence is the nested hierarchy showing common descent, and then functional analysis of protein evolution. We can show selection gradients for gross morphological characteristics, and we can show selection gradients for protein function with experiments such as Lenski's. We can even occasionally show direct observation of protein evolution, such as nylonase.Zachriel
March 1, 2015
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Piotr: Again, thank you for trying to make an argument. I will wait for you to go on, take your time. :) I would like to make some comments in the meantime, but there is no need for you to answer them now, just go on with your reasoning. My comments are about your example with words, and obviously I understand that it is only an example, and that each functional space is different. However, I think that some general considerations can be made. a) I believe that, in all functional spaces, the search space grows faster than the functional space, as the "length" of the information unit increases. Much faster. Both KF and Eric have pointed to that simple fact, and I absolutely agree with them. A very simple consequence of that is that the functional complexity of an information unit is bound to increase with the length of the unit, even if with some great residual variance. Another consequence is that any eventual natural network of "connections" between functional values, if present, is bound to be drastically "diluted" as the length of the information unit increases, leading to isolated functional islands even when for short units some connections existed. So, even if you say that it is rather easy to go from FLOUR to BREAD (but please, see next point), is it equally "easy" to go from QUIXOTICALLY to EXTEMPORIZER? I have not tried, but I would say that the task would be much harder. 12 letter words are, it seems, about 11400 in English (I confess that I am using Word Finder :) ). The combinations are 26^12, that is 9.542896e+16. The target space/search space ratio is 1.194606e-13. In your 5 letter example, with your numbers, the ratio is 0.0005. IOWs, going from 5 letters to 12 letters, the target space has approximately doubled (6000 to 11400), while the search space has become more than 8 billion times greater. The ratio is therefore approximately 8 billion times smaller. These are simple numbers. Do you really believe that your network of connections is as strong in a 12 letter space as it is in a 5 letter space? b) Another very important point. You can "easily" go from FLOUR to BREAD (two states which are not connected at sequence level) through the steps you highlighted, but only if each of the intermediate steps is "selectable". IOWs, if the network of connections you refer to must be of any relevance to connect to sequence unrelated states, it is absolutely necessary that the system operates through some oracle: in this case, an English dictionary. In this way, English words are recognized as "functional", and fixed (IOWs, they undergo some form of selection, negative or positive or both). I fully agree with you that a system of connections can help a search, but for that to happen we need three different conditions: 1) The network must be there 2) Each intermediate functional step must be selectable by an oracle, and negative/positive/mixed selection of the intermediate must follow. 3) The distance at sequence level between functional selectable intermediates must be in the range of the probabilistic resources of the random variation in the system. Now, all three conditions must be verified. While you go on trying to show that condition 1) exists in the protein space (which I don't believe to be true), I would like to remind that the only oracle admitted in the neo darwinian algorithm is NS, and that NS can only recognize a reproductive advantage, and nothing else. Well, for the moment I would say that's enough.gpuccio
March 1, 2015
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Easily refuting Zachriel wrt nested hierarchies:
The goals of scientists like Linnaeus and Cuvier- to organize the chaos of life’s diversity- are much easier to achieve if each species has a Platonic essence that distinguishes it from all others, in the same way that the absence of legs and eyelids is essential to snakes and distinguishes it from other reptiles. In this Platonic worldview, the task of naturalists is to find the essence of each species. Actually, that understates the case: In an essentialist world, the essence really [I]is[/I] the species. Contrast this with an ever-changing evolving world, where species incessantly spew forth new species that can blend with each other. The snake [I]Eupodophis[/I] from the late Cretaceous period, which had rudimentary legs, and the glass lizard, which is alive today and lacks legs, are just two of many witnesses to the blurry boundaries of species. Evolution’s messy world is anathema to the clear, pristine order essentialism craves. It is thus no accident that Plato and his essentialism became the “great antihero of evolutionism,” as the twentieth century zoologist Ernst Mayr called it.- Andreas Wagner, “Arrival of the Fittest”, pages 9-10
Let the flailing and/ or willful ignorance begin...Joe
February 28, 2015
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Zachriel:
The fossil succession and the nested hierarchy follow from the hypothesis of evolution
And yet evolutionary biologists say that evolution is too messy to produce a nested hierarchy. Obviously Zachriel doesn't know what it is talking about. And the fossil succession has fish->tetrapods-> fishapods. I doubt that is what evolutionism predicts.Joe
February 28, 2015
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Eric Anderson: Are you talking about swapping genetic material and HGT? I’m not sure that relates to reproduction. It creates new genetic combinations, which requires populations, not single organisms. Eric Anderson: Is the distinction you are drawing just a probabilistic one? Or is there a substantive difference that would impact how the changes arise? There's a substantive difference. For illustrative purposes, consider the sequence space to be explored to be a typical landscape with hill and dale, copse and glade. You command an outpost. You send a thousand troopers out to reconnoiter, each taking ten steps. You send ten rangers out to explore, each taking a thousand steps. The total steps are the same in both cases, but the results are considerably different. The former exhaustively explores the nearby landscape, leaving no stone unturned. The latter may miss some features nearby, but return with news of distant places. Mung: If nothing follows from saying “evolutiondidit” then it’s pretty much meaningless to say “evolutiondidit.” The fossil succession and the nested hierarchy follow from the hypothesis of evolution.Zachriel
February 28, 2015
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wd400: So why should specific outcomes of evolutionary processes “follow necessarily” from the definition of evolution? If evolution isn't science then there's no reason at all. If nothing follows from saying "evolutiondidit" then it's pretty much meaningless to say "evolutiondidit."Mung
February 27, 2015
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Zachriel @264:
Yet keeping in mind that single-celled organisms often recombine.
In what sense? Are you talking about swapping genetic material and HGT? I'm not sure that relates to reproduction.
There’s still a distinction between a small number taking a large number of steps, and a large number taking a small number of steps.
I want to make sure I understand your point. Is the distinction you are drawing just a probabilistic one? Or is there a substantive difference that would impact how the changes arise? Thanks,Eric Anderson
February 27, 2015
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First, it is quite clear from even a brief examination of the natural world that the inheritance of traits across generations does not, in the vast majority of the cases, lead to new species
I said inevitable, not common.
There is no inevitable logical tie between inheritance of traits across generations and new species arising
In any realized world speciation and divergence will arise if traits are inherited (unless you think real populations can maintain gene flow for ever?) . I see no point in playing philosophical games about this.wd400
February 27, 2015
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Eric Anderson: I was purposely referring to a single-celled organism that self-replicates to set aside the recombination factor for a moment. Yet keeping in mind that single-celled organisms often recombine. Eric Anderson: As to the ratchet effect, it seems this is essentially a subset of the “more probabilistic resources” category. There's still a distinction between a small number taking a large number of steps, and a large number taking a small number of steps. And a distinction between a highly-optimized genome and one with more 'fluff'.Zachriel
February 27, 2015
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Zachriel @257:
Reproduction not only provides probabilistic resources and the possibility of recombination, but also encourages a ratchet effect. If at least some progeny are at least as fit as their parents, then at least some members of the next generation will be at least as fit or more fit than the parent generation.
Thanks, I like that description. Just a couple of follow up thoughts: I was purposely referring to a single-celled organism that self-replicates to set aside the recombination factor for a moment. But I agree with you it is important in situations of an offspring from two parents. As to the ratchet effect, it seems this is essentially a subset of the "more probabilistic resources" category. In other words, if an organism only has one offspring during its lifetime, this effect is nonexistent. However, if the organism has multiple offspring, then the odds of a favorable variation are proportionally increased.Eric Anderson
February 26, 2015
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wd400:
With that in hand it’s easy to see that speciation and therefore divergence are inevitable.
Sorry, but this is simply false on both evidentiary and logical grounds. First, it is quite clear from even a brief examination of the natural world that the inheritance of traits across generations does not, in the vast majority of the cases, lead to new species. We see literally millions of examples of inherited traits every single day all around us. Meanwhile, the alleged speciation events lie at the very periphery of our ability to detect, both in time and in scope. There are no doubt some speciation events that owe their source to inherited traits across generations, but it is not true that inheritance of traits across generations inevitably leads to speciation. More likely, inherited traits simply lead to variations within a species (which is what is actually observed almost all the time); or perhaps to extinction, just as much as speciation. A much more accurate statement would be: "Heritable traits in a population over successive generations rarely lead to speciation; however in rare cases with particular population makeups or under extreme selective pressure they can lead to speciation." And given that inheritance of traits across generations does not usually lead to speciation, we are certainly justified in asking just when it does, and if in particular cases we can be sure that it actually did. More important, however, is the logical point: You are arguing that "heritable traits in a population over successive generations" inevitably leads to new speciation events. We can see that this does not follow logically, simply by asking the question: What if they don't? There is no inevitable logical tie between inheritance of traits across generations and new species arising. To be sure, the materialistic evolutionary paradigm requires, nay, demands it. But it simply does not follow as a matter of logic. They are two separate issues, each of which must stand on its own evidence. I realize that in the mind of the evolutionist the significant creative changes are simply small ones writ large. Thus, many proponents of evolution operate under the misimpression that evidence of tiny, even cyclical, changes are evidence for the whole grand creative process. They are not. When we escape from the mental trap of assuming that x inevitably leads to y, it becomes clear that it is entirely an open question of when, or if, it actually does. Furthermore, when we move beyond the concept of species, with its notoriously slippery definition that is often in the eye of the beholder, and consider larger scale changes, new organisms, and new body plans, it is even more obvious that "heritable traits in a population over successive generations" do not inevitably lead to such changes, and therefore, simply cannot be counted as evidence of such.Eric Anderson
February 26, 2015
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Piotr, For all the changes you can do to your bacteria it will never become anything other than bacteria (or dead).Joe
February 26, 2015
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OK, to continue. Let's now move to a different domain -- DNA sequences. Here we have four nucleobases (A, C, G, T) instead of the 26 letters of the Latin alphabet. For simplicity, let's consider a DNA chain comparable to a middle-sized bacterial genome (say, 3 Mbp). Also for simplicity, a continuous substring of the full chain will be regarded as functional if it yields a protein which can play an active role in one of the known bacterial metabolic reactions ("has a metabolic meaning"). This is of course only one of the many ways in which a DNA sequence can be "functional". I will for the time being ignore regulatory sequences and RNA genes, for example. A typical bacterial gene may be about 900 bp long (with 300 codons). There are 4^900 = 7x10^541 possible DNA sequences of that length, but only 22^300 = 5x10^420 corresponding proteins, which means that, on an average, there are about 1.4x10^121 synonymous sequences yielding the same protein consisting of 300 standard amino acids. If we restrict our attention to point-mutations affecting one nucleotide at a time, there are 2700 possible substitutions for any sequence of 900 base-pairs. Non-synonymous substitutions are more likely to be deleterious (damaging the functionality of the protein) than neutral or beneficial. (to be continued)Piotr
February 26, 2015
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Box, True. So why should specific outcomes of evolutionary processes "follow necessarily" from the definition of evolution?wd400
February 26, 2015
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WD400: No one thinks the existence of particular craters on the moon should “follow necessarily” from the definition of subatomic particles or gravity or movement.
And certainly no one thinks that the existence of the works of William Shakespeare should “follow necessarily” from the definition of subatomic particles or gravity or movement.Box
February 26, 2015
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Zachriel: There is a difference between a few replicators taking a large number of steps, and a large number of replicators taking just a few steps. In addition, recombination allows a population to avoid local fitness maxima, and explore farther afield. Eric Anderson: In other words, it provides more probabilistic opportunities for the population to find that advantageous island. You're not being clear here. Does "it" refer to recombination? If so, recombination allows the population to leap beyond local fitness peaks or islands (which are not necessarily the same thing). Returning to your original statement. Eric Anderson: Is reproduction necessary just to provide more mutations or is there something else that reproduction adds? Reproduction not only provides probabilistic resources and the possibility of recombination, but also encourages a ratchet effect. If at least some progeny are at least as fit as their parents, then at least some members of the next generation will be at least as fit or more fit than the parent generation.Zachriel
February 26, 2015
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No one thinks the existence of particular craters on the moon should "follow necessarily" from the definition of subatomic particles or gravity or movement. That's a pretty good definition of what evolution is. With that in hand it's easy to see that speciation and therefore divergence are inevitable. That heritable traits can get passed down distinct lineages doesn't "change" the definition of evolution, as you claim. If you want to explain more specific outcomes (a particular crater on the moon, the wider beak of a finch, or indeed the existence of finches) then you need more details.wd400
February 26, 2015
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wd400 @249:
The question was how do speciation and divergence arise form the simplest description of an evolutionary system. The answer is above.
No. The question was, what is the definition (a definition that was asserted to be technical, clear and unambiguous) of the word "evolution." As is typically the case in evolutionary rhetoric, a definition was offered that was simple and uncontroversial: heritable traits get passed on. Yet, as soon as we began to press a bit, the definition expanded. And if we were to continue the discussion, it would expand further from just divergence and speciation to encompass major new physical structures, completely new organisms, new body plans, the origin of man, etc. None of these follow necessarily from "heritable traits in a population" over generations. The great evolutionary rhetorical game is to pretend that they do follow as some kind of logical necessity and that witnessing something at one end of the spectrum (minor changes in finch beaks or moth wings) is somehow evidence for the grand claims at the other end of the spectrum. It is not. Those grand claims must stand on their own.Eric Anderson
February 26, 2015
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It's not "heretical", it just... weird that someone who thnks about evolution thinks it's even a question. Why don't you coding up the "weasel" example without replication (just n strings changing at random), and see how fundamentally different the process is. Or maybe, read The Blind Watchmaker.wd400
February 26, 2015
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Zachriel @244:
There is a difference between a few replicators taking a large number of steps, and a large number of replicators taking just a few steps. In addition, recombination allows a population to avoid local fitness maxima, and explore farther afield.
In other words, it provides more probabilistic opportunities for the population to find that advantageous island.Eric Anderson
February 26, 2015
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wd400 @243:
This is a strange question. Without reproduction there is no chance for a mutation to outlive its host and very little chance to create competition. In a non-reproductive world you’d have very weak “single-generation” selection (like a sieve filtering the good and the bad ) but no way for the “good” mutations to fill the spots left behind by “bad” ones.
Yes, it would seem like a heretical question to even bring up to those steeped in evolutionary thought. :) But it is a legitimate question. I hesitated whether to bring it up without properly outlining the backdrop of the question, so let's leave it at that for now. I'm hoping to do a full post on the issue sometime, but it probably won't be soon due to other commitments. I'd love to get your thoughts and experience then.Eric Anderson
February 26, 2015
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#239 Me_Think
If you are not explaining Wagner’s hyper dimensional search network, then your methodology may be right.
I'm trying to look at it from a different angle. The elements of the search space considered here are sequences (in biology, they would be DNA sequences), not Cartesian products of types of functionality (identified with metabolic pathways by Wagner).Piotr
February 25, 2015
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#240 EA,
One quick question: If we talk about 3-letter words, we will have many more functional English words, as well as far fewer possibilities, both of which would increase the odds of mutating into another functional 3-letter word.
There are relatively few three-letter words in English (if you count types, not tokens) -- about 2500. On the other hand, their space is smaller (26^3 = 17576), which means that 1/7 of the space is "functional".
However, if we talk about 7-letter words, just the opposite would be true.
There are more 7-letter words than 5-letter ones (the mean word length in English is a little about 8), but of course the search space is 26x26 = 676 times larger, so the density of "functional" strings is lower (about 500 times, roughly). The number of disconnected words grows with word length, though for 7-letter words connectivity is still high
So the existence of islands of function becomes reduced with increasing complexity and the number of theoretical possibilities also goes up exponentially, true?
Yes, but note that the example has its artificial limitations. Only "point substitutions" are allowed, and all words must be of equal length. If we permit the addition or deletion of a single character, we enormously increase the number of possible mutations and the connectivity of words. Likewise if we allow sequences of words, or don't insist that the entire string has to be functional. There are many ways in which a web of functionality can "colonise" even a really vast space of sequences.Piotr
February 25, 2015
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The question was how do speciation and divergence arise form the simplest description of an evolutionary system. The answer is above.wd400
February 25, 2015
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WD400: Genes pools split due to patchy habitats, changing environments, mountains, rivers…
Aha. So this is how we get from chemicals to humans. I can see it now. Thank you, that was most elucidating.Box
February 25, 2015
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No. Genes pools split due to patchy habitats, changing environments, mountains, rivers... Lineages diverge after gene pools split because change is the ground state of evolutionary processes. One changes can't move from one population to another you get divergencewd400
February 25, 2015
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