Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

The Elephant in the Room

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We are regularly told by proponents of evolutionary theory, from Darwin right up to the present day, that purely natural processes, such as random mutations and natural selection, have the ability to build, construct, fashion, purpose and create remarkable machines. Machines that rival, and in many cases surpass, our most advanced technologies.

We are assured in no uncertain terms that such natural processes have this great creative power. Yet when examples are sought, we are invariably given examples that either did not come about through purely natural processes (see Berra’s Blunder), or examples that are trivial in scope. But nothing that even comes close to verifying the grand claims of the evolutionary creation story.

There is a huge elephant in the room.

Why, if evolutionary processes are so incredibly adept at producing remarkable technologies that surpass our capabilities, do we not see such evolutionary processes being put to good use on a regular basis?

All around the world, every day, millions upon millions of new inventions, designs, projects, programs, and other creations are being pursued. Yet the most awesome creative force of all, so we are assured, is for some reason notably absent. Occasionally someone will claim that evolutionary processes were responsible for creating this or that product (the NASA antenna being the example most often trotted out, even though it is not a proper example of purely natural evolutionary processes). Sometimes someone will assert that an “evolutionary algorithm” has produced something mildly interesting (like the questionable and potentially flawed Avida results touted several years ago in Nature). But by and large, this alleged remarkable creative force is absent, irrelevant, a “no show,” when it comes to actually creating things in the real world.

Now the evolutionary proponent will no doubt argue that the reason is simple: not enough time. Easily impressed with all the zeroes in a number like the billions of years of Earth’s history, the evolutionist reposes faith in the power of deep time to take what is clearly an impotent process in the short term and turn it into the most potent creative force in the long term. But when the actual numbers are reviewed and the actual requirements for construction of functional creations assessed, it becomes clear that those zeroes in the age of the Earth or even the age of the universe are but a rounding error and are unhelpful in addressing the larger issue.

To be sure, a trial-and-error process like random mutations and natural selection can occasionally do something interesting – if there is a large enough population and a strong enough selective pressure. Behe has spent time searching for this “edge of evolution,” while in stark contrast most evolutionists never even bother thinking about what evolutionary processes can actually accomplish in the real world, simply taking it as an article of faith that “with evolution nothing is impossible.”

More to the point, such minor changes even when they do show up do not constitute evidence for the larger evolutionary claims. Particularly when many of the alleged examples of evolution’s power turn out to be, on closer examination, examples of breaking a machine, rather than building it.

So the elephant in the room remains. Design is a critical aspect of our modern lives. Design occurs across the spectrum of disciplines and across the globe on a near constant basis. Yet the most potent creative force that allegedly ever existed, that of evolutionary mechanisms, is noticeable in its near complete absence – dabbling at the fringes, only occasionally participating, rarely influencing, never doing much of any real consequence.

We might be forgiven for wondering if perhaps this is all the evolutionary mechanisms have to contribute.

Or all that they ever did.

Comments
WD400: Evolution is heritable traits in a population over successive generations. An almost inevitable consequence of such a process is that some populations stop sharing genes with each other. Once that happens you get divergence and speciation.
Due to genetic entropy? That would mean that evolution is about the degeneration of species.Box
February 25, 2015
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More stangeness from this thread. So evolution is not just “heritable traits in a population over successive generations,” but heritable traits in a population over successive generations that leads to divergence and speciation. Evolution is heritable traits in a population over successive generations. An almost inevitable consequence of such a process is that some populations stop sharing genes with each other. Once that happens you get divergence and speciation.wd400
February 25, 2015
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Eric Anderson: Is reproduction necessary just to provide more mutations or is there something else that reproduction adds? There is a difference between a few replicators taking a large number of steps, and a large number of replicators taking just a few steps. In addition, recombination allows a population to avoid local fitness maxima, and explore farther afield.Zachriel
February 25, 2015
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This is a strange question. Without reproduction there is no chance for a mutation to outlive its host and very little chance to create competition. In a non-reproductive world you'd have very weak "single-generation" selection (like a sieve filtering the good and the bad ) but no way for the "good" mutations to fill the spots left behind by "bad" ones. Compare that to compounded generations of differential reproductive success and you end up with a very different picture.wd400
February 25, 2015
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Zachriel @238: Just curious, what does reproduction bring to the table? Presumably there are mutations that happen in vivo and that could, in theory, alter the organism. Is reproduction necessary just to provide more mutations or is there something else that reproduction adds? (Assume we are talking about a single-celled organism.) Thanks,Eric Anderson
February 25, 2015
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P.S : comment#239: Multiply the number of dimension with the edgesMe_Think
February 25, 2015
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Piotr: I also appreciate you fleshing out your example, so please keep at it. One quick question: If we talk about 3-letter words, we will have many more functional English words, as well as far fewer possibilities, both of which would increase the odds of mutating into another functional 3-letter word. However, if we talk about 7-letter words, just the opposite would be true. So the existence of islands of function becomes reduced with increasing complexity and the number of theoretical possibilities also goes up exponentially, true?Eric Anderson
February 25, 2015
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Piotr @ 220,
If you represent the sequence space as a five-dimensional hypercube (26x26x26x26x26), a mutation can be defined as a translation along any of the five axes
Hi Piotr could you check your math? 5 dimension hypercube will have only 2^5 = 32 nodes and 2^(5-1) = 16 edges .Remember, the 5,000 metabolic pathways are represented in 5,000 dimensions by Wagner (which would give 1.41 x 10^1505 nodes and 7.062 x 10^1504 edges . I am not sure where you are representing the 6,000 viable words that you talk about in your example. If you are not explaining Wagner's hyper dimensional search network, then your methodology may be right.Me_Think
February 25, 2015
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kairosfocus: The material issue linked to the real challenge is to FIND such starting with the very first one, i.e. OOL. Your claim was that "the same pattern of deep isolation of islands of function applies to your remark," which concerned word evolution. Evolutionary theory, including the toy model, assume reproduction. So you grant that once there are replicators, then complexity can evolve?Zachriel
February 25, 2015
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Z, you are talking in effect about moving within islands of function and/or special cases. The material issue linked to the real challenge is to FIND such starting with the very first one, i.e. OOL. For this root of ToL case brings to bear the fundamentals in a context where self-replication itself has to be explained. KFkairosfocus
February 25, 2015
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kairosfocus: the same pattern of deep isolation of islands of function applies to your remark. We can show that is incorrect, given populations of sequences that undergo mutation and recombination, with every sequence in the population being a proper word.Zachriel
February 25, 2015
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kairosfocus: You will see that he discusses how distance between valid words starts to shoot up as they become longer. And yet long words can evolve from populations that undergo letter mutation and recombination.Zachriel
February 25, 2015
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Z, the same pattern of deep isolation of islands of function applies to your remark. Recall, Axe and Gauger on the 6 - 7 AA threshold issue. KFkairosfocus
February 25, 2015
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Piotr, the issue of a threshold of sufficient complexity that functionally specific complex organisation occurs in islands in config spaces that are deeply isolated relative to blind search resources is highly material. Indeed, you will see a discussion of just that point using words in English, in Denton's Evolution, a Theory in Crisis, c 1985. You will see that he discusses how distance between valid words starts to shoot up as they become longer. That is we are looking at much deeper skip distances and isolation issues. I have no problem with stepwise increments in islands of function, the issue is to find them by blind search processes. And so, simple extrapolation from toy cases is not a reasonable procedure. Proteins typically come in at about 300 AAs, the fold-function domains are known to be deeply isolated in AA sequence space, and you need hundreds to function in a viable cell. So, complexity and functional specificity are highly material considerations. KFkairosfocus
February 25, 2015
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#229 Joe, Everyday observation. If someone says "Febuary" and "nucular" for "February" and "nuclear", confuses "adopt" with "adapt" in a context that clarifies the meaning, or speaks with a Geordie or Texan accent -- is it a great comprehension problem for you?Piotr
February 25, 2015
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#226 KF, Have you noticed I'm discussing a greatly simplified model for the sake of easier exposition? There are lots of side issues I must skip, but thresholds don't play any role at this stage. I haven't yet begun to talk about biology. This is what's worth keeping in mind: -- For a randomly chosen 5-sequence the odds that at least one of its 125 "mutants" is a meaningful English word are about 0.06. However, if the sequence itself is an English word (or even a nonce-word that might be English), the probability is immediately amplified 150 times, to about 0.9, and there are usually several English words among the mutants (for SNARE, I found about ten) -- hence the "web effect".Piotr
February 25, 2015
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kairosfocus: while skip distance games for short English words are fine, the material issues relate to much more complex informational elements as I just noted. Much longer words can be had with populations exhibiting mutation and recombination.Zachriel
February 25, 2015
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Piotr:
Real-world “word mutations” (such as variant pronunciations, mispronunciations, slips of the tongue, phonetic reductions, etc.) rarely do any serious harm.
Evidence-free assertion.Joe
February 25, 2015
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Piotr, while skip distance games for short English words are fine, the material issues relate to much more complex informational elements as I just noted. And, the more relevant case is random mutations of computer code to transform one complex function into an even more elaborate one without crashing the machine at any step. KFkairosfocus
February 25, 2015
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#225 Joe, I'm using it as an illustrative analogy (to show how functionality can be distributed in the search space). It isn't supposed to be a model of language evolution. Besides, you are wrong. Real-world "word mutations" (such as variant pronunciations, mispronunciations, slips of the tongue, phonetic reductions, etc.) rarely do any serious harm. Linguistic messages are highly redundant; otherwise you wouldn't even be able to understand an accent of English different from yours.Piotr
February 25, 2015
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Piotr, pardon but a word like FLOAT has in it 5 letters, 26^5 = 1.19*10^7, or if you go for full ASCII 128^5 = 3.44*10^10, both much less than the 10^150 - 10^301 that is the relevant threshold for the design inference on FSCO/I as sign. A typical protein is 300 20-state aa's long or comes from a space of 2.04*10^390; where hundreds of proteins are required for basic cell viability. (As in, words vs sentences -- or, better yet, functional programs. D/RNA is object code.) This is a case where scope of config space is directly and materially related to isolation . . . Hamming distance sense . . . of islands of function and relative paucity of search resources on sol system or observed cosmos scale. KFkairosfocus
February 25, 2015
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Word ladder puzzle? Really??? Words are usually part of sentences. Mutate a word and you will most likely change the meaning of the sentence.Joe
February 25, 2015
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Piotr: I am following you with interest. You are the first person who is trying to make a meaningful discourse. Please, go on. I prefer not to comment until I understand really what you want to say, but I really appreciate your work. Thank you.gpuccio
February 24, 2015
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EA, I have classes in the morning, and it's past midnight here. If I find the time, I'll comment tomorrow.Piotr
February 24, 2015
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Piotr @219:
Of course depending on the nature of the replicators, their population structure, the influence of the environment, and the number of generations evolution eventually leads to divergence and speciation.
Well, there is the rub, isn't it. So evolution is not just "heritable traits in a population over successive generations," but heritable traits in a population over successive generations that leads to divergence and speciation. And given that the "leads to divergence and speciation" in your statement is not a logical conclusion of "heritable traits in a population over successive generations," it must stand independent on its own as to the evidence. After all, what if heritable traits in a population don't lead to speciation? Or new functionally-integrated machinery? Or new body plans? Or whole new types of organisms? That is where the interesting questions lie. No-one disputes that there are heritable traits in populations. The question is what these heritable traits can accomplish. The bait-and-switch of evolutionary rhetoric, is to point to the minor variations that obviously exist within a population and then claim that those minor variations prove the larger creation story. They don't. The larger creation story has to stand on its own evidence. And what is the evidence that these minor, even cyclical, changes can do all this work of creating? That is the question. So far, after well over a century of intense research and study, we've made a handful of slightly interesting observations: moth coloration and finch beaks and antifreeze proteins and so forth. But none of these helps in the slightest to explain how the moth, or the finch, or the Arctic cod could have arisen in the first place. Anyway, that is a bit of a tangent, but with respect to your specific comment that caught my eye, no, "evolution" is not a well-defined technical term. It is all over the map. It encompasses ideas that range from the obvious and the well-supported to the outrageous and the wildly-spectacular. It is an extremely slippery term, which fact is used to great advantage by those who are pulling a definitional and rhetorical bait-and-switch, whether intentionally or unknowingly.Eric Anderson
February 24, 2015
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(#220, continued) If "functionality" wasn't defined as a formal property of 5-strings but something based on external criteria, why does it produce this network effect? The reason is simple: the structure of English words (and, indeed, words in any natural language) is not quite arbitrary. Their spelling reflects to a considerable extent their pronunciation, and pronunciation patterns are shaped by some natural restrictions on preferred sound combinations. In the last analysis, they depend on things like the anatomy of the vocal tract and the aerodynamics of sound production. There are certain recurrent "motifs" and rules of well-formedness which make some sound combinations (and the corresponding spellings) permissible, while forbidding others. For example, FLOST would be acceptable as an English word (so it's potentially functional), but ARHGM or ZZZZO are ill-formed. Note that FLOST can easily mutate into English words (FLOST > FLOAT > GLOAT > GLOOM > BLOOM > BLOOD, and further into BREAD or FLOUR), but there's no way to reach the web of functionality starting from ARGHM or ZZZZO. Does it mean that the structure of functional 5-strings is "designed"? I wouldn't say so. English sound combinations have been shaped by something similar to natural selection. An important part of the "environment" that enforces a patterned structure is the human articulatory system with its mechanics. There are biasses and regularities, but they are not the result of anyone's conscious planning (though language users are intelligent and conscious). Language self-adapts to the communicative behaviour of its users: words must be pronounceable. Note also that words are rarely formed from scratch, and even if they are, they conform to the same structural restrictions as vocabulary inherited from earlier generations of speakers (LASER or GOOGLE are structurally similar to POKER or PEOPLE -- here I ignore the 5-letter constraint, which was arbitrary and used only for convenience). Words derived from others (like TOOTHBRUSH from TOOTH + BRUSH or CLEVERNESS from CLEVER + -NESS [suffix]) inherit their structural properties. Well-formedness is partly language-specific (and can change in the historical development of languages), but it also has universal components. If C stands for a consonant and V for a vowel, CVCCV or CCVCV are far more likely word-templates than CCCVV or VVVVC cross-linguistically. That's why the "web of words" described above exists not only in English, but also in any other language, and evolves more or less gradually when languages are affected by sound changes over centuries. One could say that it is characterised by a certain historical robustness. (to be continued; comments welcome)Piotr
February 24, 2015
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Gpuccio, Do you mind if I begin with a simple illustrative example? Let's consider all five-letter alphabetic strings (AAAAA, QWERT, HGROF, etc.). By convention, a string will be "functional" if it's a meaningful English word (BREAD, WATER, GLASS, etc.). Functionality is therefore not a formal property of the string but something dictated by the environment. There are 26^5 = 11881376 (almost 12 million) possible five-letter strings. The number of five-letter words in English (excluding proper nouns and extremely rare, dialectal or archaic words) is about 6000, so the probability that any randomly generated string is functional is about 0.0005. Any five-letter string S can produce 5x25 = 125 "mutants" differing from S by exactly one letter. If you represent the sequence space as a five-dimensional hypercube (26x26x26x26x26), a mutation can be defined as a translation along any of the five axes. It would appear that the odds of finding a functional mutant for a given string should be about 125x0.0005 = 1/16 on the average. In fact, however, it depends where you start. If S is functional, the existence of at least one functional mutant is almost guaranteed (close to 90%). For most English words there are more than one functional mutants. For example, from SNARE wer get {SCARE, SHARE, SPARE, STARE, SNORE, SNAKE, SNARK...}. Though some functional sequences are isolated or form small clusters in the sequence space, most of them are members of one huge, quite densely interconnected network. You can get from one to another in just a few steps (often in more than one way), which is of course what Lewis Carroll's "word ladder" puzzle is about: FLOUR > FLOOR > FLOOD > BLOOD > BROOD > BROAD > BREAD You can ponder the example for a moment; I'll return to it later.Piotr
February 24, 2015
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#218 Eric Anderson,
So, if that is what evolution is, then evolution doesn’t result in new species, new types of organisms?
I gave a very general definition of evolution. Of course depending on the nature of the replicators, their population structure, the influence of the environment, and the number of generations evolution eventually leads to divergence and speciation.
Also, evolution would accept the idea that life was created by an intelligent being?
Evolution would happen whatever the origin of the first living things, also if they had been created by an intelligent being. One could also imagine guided evolution with an intelligent being intervening from time to time to tinker with the DNA of some or all species. But I would claim that there is no evidence of any such thing.Piotr
February 24, 2015
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Piotr @188:
Change in heritable traits in a population over successive generations.
So, if that is what evolution is, then evolution doesn't result in new species, new types of organisms? Also, evolution would accept the idea that life was created by an intelligent being? Thanks,Eric Anderson
February 24, 2015
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So a personal attack and you're completely unable to defend anything you said. Got itCHartsil
February 24, 2015
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