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Intelligent Design Basics – Information – Part III – Shannon

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In this post I want to consider another aspect of information.  Specifically, I want to consider the concept of “Shannon information.”

First of all, I admit to having ruffled a few feathers when I mentioned in passing in a prior post that “Shannon information is not really information.”  As I have also written before in comments on UD, I don’t begrudge anyone referring to the Shannon metric as “information.”  That terminology has penetrated the English language and has become regularly-used in information theory.  So, no, I am not going to police everyone who puts the words “Shannon” and “information” next to each other.

However, no small amount of misunderstanding has resulted from the unfortunate term “Shannon information.”  In particular, as it relates to intelligent design, some critics have seized on the idea of Shannon information and have argued that because this or that computer program or this or that natural process can produce a complex string or a complex sequence, that therefore such a program or process is producing new complex “information.”  This proves, the argument goes, that purely natural processes can produce new and large amounts of information, contra the claims of intelligent design.

Such thinking demonstrates a lack of understanding of CSI – in particular the need for specification.  However, a large part of the problem results from the use of the word “information” in reference to the Shannon metric.  As I have stated before, somewhat provocatively, we would all have been better off if instead of “Shannon information” the concept were referred to as the “Shannon measurement” or the “Shannon metric.”

Claude Shannon published a paper entitled “A Mathematical Theory of Communication” in the July 1948 volume of The Bell System Technical Journal.  This paper is available online here and is considered a foundational groundwork for not only Shannon’s subsequent research on the topic, but for information theory generally.  To be sure, there are many other aspects of information theory and many other individuals worthy of acclaim in the field, but Shannon is perhaps justifiably referred to as the father of information theory.

But before delving into other details in subsequent posts, time permitting, I want to relate a short experience and then a parable.  Consider this a primer, a teaser, if you will.

The Warehouse

When I was a teenager in high school, one of my part time jobs was working in a warehouse that housed and sold equipment and materials for the construction industry.  On a regular weekly schedule we would load a truck with supplies at the main warehouse and drive the truck to a smaller warehouse in a different city to supply the needs in that locale.  The day of the week was fixed (if memory serves, it was generally a Friday) and the sending warehouse foreman made sure that there were enough people on hand in the morning to pull inventory and load the truck, while the receiving warehouse foreman in turn ensured that there were enough people on hand in the afternoon to unload the truck and stock the inventory.

Due to the inevitable uneven customer demand in the receiving city, the needs of the receiving warehouse would vary.  With good inventory management, a large portion of the receiving warehouse’s needs could be anticipated up front.  However, it was not uncommon for the receiving warehouse to have a special order at the last minute that would necessitate removing a large crate or some boxes from the truck that had already been loaded in order to make room for the special order.  At other times when no large orders had been made, we would finish loading all the supplies and find that we still had room on the truck.  In this latter case, the sending foreman would often decide to send some additional supplies – usually a high turnover item that he knew the receiving warehouse would likely need shortly anyway.

In either case, the goal was to make most efficient use of the time, money and expense of the truck and driver that were already slated to head to the other town – taking the best possible advantage of the previously-allocated sunk costs, if you will.  Ensuring that the shipment container (in this case a truck) made best use of the available capacity was a key to efficient operations.

I want to now take this experience and turn it into a parable that relates to Shannon information.

The Parable of the Fruit Truck

Let’s assume that instead of heating and cooling equipment and supplies, the warehouse sells fruit directly to customers.   Let’s further assume that the various kinds of fruit are shipped in different-sized boxes – the watermelons in one size of box, the pineapples in another, the apples in another, and the strawberries in yet another.

Now, for simplicity, let’s suppose that customers purchase the fruit on a long-term contract with a pre-set price, so the primary variable expense of the warehouse is the expense of operating the truck.  The warehouse would thus be highly incentivized to maximize the efficiency of the truck – sending it out on the road only as often as needed, and maximizing the carrying capacity of the truck.

The dock workers in our parable, however, are not particularly sharp.  As the fruit comes in from the farms, the dock workers, without confirming the contents, simply start packing the boxes at the front of the truck, working their way to the back.  Invariably, there are gaps and open spaces as the various-sized boxes do not precisely conform to the internal capacity of the truck.  Some days are better than others by dint of luck, but the owner quickly realizes that the packing of the truck is inefficient.  Worse still, customers regularly complain that (i) the truck is arriving only partly filled, (ii) boxes contain the wrong kind of fruit, or (iii) in particularly egregious cases, the boxes contain rotten fruit or no fruit at all.

As a result, the warehouse owner decides to hire a sharp young man fresh from the university whose sole job it is to figure out the best way to pack the truck, to create the most efficient and time-saving way to deliver as much fruit as possible given the carrying capacity of the truck.

Let’s say this young man’s name is, oh, I don’t know, perhaps “Shannon.”

Now our hero of the parable, Shannon, works in the office, not the loading dock, and is unable to confirm the actual contents of the boxes that are loaded on the truck.  Further, he quite reasonably assumes the dock workers should be doing that part of the job.  Notwithstanding those limitations, Shannon is a sharp fellow and quickly comes up with a formula that gives the owner a precise calculation of the truck’s carrying capacity and the exact number of each type of fruit box that can be loaded on the truck to ensure that every square inch of the truck is filled.

Elated with the prospect of putting all the customer complaints behind him, the warehouse owner hands down the instruction to the dock workers: henceforth the truck will be packed with so many watermelon boxes, so many pineapple boxes, so many apple boxes and so on.  Furthermore, they will be packed according to Shannon’s carefully worked out order and placement of the boxes.

After the next week’s shipments, the owner is surprised to receive a number of customer complaints.  Although not a single customer complains that the truck was only partly full (it was packed tightly to the brim in all cases), several customers still complain that (i) boxes contain the wrong kind of fruit, or (ii) in particularly egregious cases, the boxes contain rotten fruit or no fruit at all.

Furious, the owner marches to Shannon’s desk and threatens to fire him on the spot.  “I hired you to figure out the best way to pack the truck to create the most efficient approach to delivering as much fruit as possible!  But I am still swamped by customer complaints,” he fumes as he throws down the list of customer complaints on Shannon’s desk.  Unfazed, Shannon calmly looks at the customer complaints and says, “I understand you used to get complaints that the truck was only partially filled, but I notice that not a single customer has complained about that problem this week.  You hired me to find the most efficient delivery method, to ensure that the truck was maximizing its carrying capacity of boxes.  I did that.  And that is all I have ever claimed to be able to do.”

“But some of the customers got the wrong fruit or got no fruit at all,” sputters the owner.  Based on your work we told them they would be receiving a specific quantity of specific types of fruit each week.

“I’m sorry to hear that,” retorts Shannon, “but you should not have promised any specific fruit or any particular quantity of fruit based on my formula alone.  From my desk I have no way of knowing what is actually in the boxes.  The supplier farms and dock workers can answer for that.  What is in the boxes – what is actually delivered to the customer – has nothing to do with me.  I have no ability from where I am sitting, nor frankly any interest, in guaranteeing the contents of the boxes.  My only task, the only thing I have ever claimed to be able to do, is calculate the maximum carrying capacity of the truck with the given boxes.

The Analogy

The fruit truck is obviously but a simple and fun analogy.  However, it does, I believe, help newcomers get a feel for what Shannon can do (analyze maximum carrying capacity of a delivery channel) and what Shannon cannot do (analyze, confirm, understand or quantify the underlying substance).  We’ll get into more details later, but let’s kick it off with this analogy.

What similarities and differences are there between our parable of the fruit truck and Shannon information?  What other analogies are you familiar with or perhaps have yourself used to help bring these rather intangible concepts down to earth in a concrete way for people to understand?

 

Comments
Mung @83:
I’ve argued all along that information is about something and that this is true as well of Shannon information. It’s commonly accepted that Shannon Information is information, but less well understood (by far) what it [Shannon Information] is information about.
There is no question that the Shannon measurement/calculation is about something. The big problem comes because people think they are calculating the amount of "information" in a string when they run the Shannon calculation. They aren't. Indeed, the only thing they are doing is plugging some parameters into a formula and producing a measurement or a calculation result. It is very unfortunate that this measurement has come to be called (by some people) "Shannon information" as many people then trick themselves into thinking that the measurement has somehow quantified the amount of "information" in the string. We might as well take the temperature of an object in degrees Kelvin and call the result "Kelvin information." Or we could plug some numbers into Einstein's most famous equation and pronounce the result "Einstein information." Of course we will have produced information when take a measurement and assign it a value according to an agreed-upon system, or when we plug parameters into an equation and produce a result. Yes, that result is "information." Yes, as a result of our mental faculties, in concert with accepted linguistic and mathematical conventions, we produce new information when we express the results of a measurement or when we set forth the results of a calculation. Those resulting numbers are information in their own right. But it doesn't mean those numbers represent a measurement of information. The resulting numbers themselves could be plugged into a Shannon calculator to yield a number. And that number is of course itself another piece of information. Which can then be fed back into the Shannon calculator itself -- just like any other piece of information -- to yield another number. And the cycle can continue . . . The problem -- what is really a very simple conceptual problem, but which has caused nearly endless difficulties for some people -- is that (unlike in nearly every other calculation that we run in any other field), some people insist on calling the result of the Shannon calculation "Shannon information." Couple that with the fact that information is generally plugged into the Shannon calculation on the front end, and many people get quite confused into thinking that the "Shannon information" coming out the back end somehow represents a measurement of the amount of "information" going in the front end. It is easier to keep things separate in a case like Einstein's equation, for example. We can see that if we take mass and multiply it times the speed of light squared then we will get a number that represents energy. Unfortunately, in the Shannon case, people see "information" plugged into one end and "Shannon information" coming out the other end and think that this little number must somehow represent the amount of "information" that was contained in the input string. At any rate, the upshot of all this is that the term "Shannon information" is a tremendous stumbling block, particularly for individuals who are approaching the topic (hoping to discredit the design inference) by claiming variously that (i) everything contains information, or (ii) information can be meaningless, or (iii) the Shannon number measures the actual information content, or (iv) some combination of the foregoing absurdities. Yes, those of us who are a bit more careful can keep in mind what "Shannon information" really means and what it is really about and can avoid getting confused. But it is a very tough row to hoe to try to explain the issues to someone who is already entrenched in misunderstandings and who, unfortunately in so many cases, has a mental or philosophical predisposition to not understand the issues.Eric Anderson
July 5, 2014
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Neil Rickert:
If you want an objective science of communication or of information, then you must leave meaning out of that science.
Bullshit!. If Shannon Information isn't meaningful, then of what use is it?Mung
July 4, 2014
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Responding to Eric (#73):
Take the string: TOBEORNOTTOBETHATISTHEQUESTION Now take the string: ETTTBSNHOBOORTUEHTISEEATQTNOIO Both of those strings have a “specification” as you are using the term, meaning that the string consists of a series of letters in a particular sequence.
Right. Shannon's theory is a theory of communication, so specification ought to mean the specification of what is to be communicated.
However, it is also obvious, I trust, that there is something substantively different between the two strings.
No, not at all. There's a difference in how we react to them. But that's a difference in our reaction, not a substantive difference in the strings.
Rather, the difference lies in the fact that one string has underlying meaning, it has content, it specifies something (beyond the mere repetition of itself), it symbolizes something (again, beyond the mere repetition of itself).
No, that's nonsense. Neither string has any meaning. We contribute the meaning. Meaning is not a property of a string. Rather, meaning comes from us. Meaning is inherently subjective. But none of that subjective quality that we call "meaning" is ever present in the communication channel. If you want an objective science of communication or of information, then you must leave meaning out of that science.Neil Rickert
July 4, 2014
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GBDixonJuly 1, 2014 at 7:51 am
Hi all, This will be my last comment. I have irritated our host and come off as a know-it-all. This is important to me, I guess.
A shame. Even a know-it-all generally knows something! For what it is worth I had hoped to hear more from you. GBDixonJuly 1, 2014 at 7:51 am
I think that a lot of confusion, argument and new vocabulary could be avoided if ID advocates knew information theory a little better.
You see, I agree completely. But why would you say this then disappear? Don't pontificate, educate! Many of us here at UD are utterly receptive to learning new things. This is especially true of information theory. Please stay.Mung
July 3, 2014
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Neil Rickert:
This may be the most important point of the whole discussion. The word “information” is used in multiple conflicting ways. Unfortunately, people talk is if information were an objective or metaphysical entity. We would do better to understand it as an attribution appropriate for a particular use.
That would also include "Shannon Information."Mung
July 3, 2014
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Eric:
Shannon theory simply cannot say whether we are dealing with meaning or not.
Close. So close. :) I agree. Assuming agreement that Shannon theory simply cannot say whether we are dealing with meaning or not, then how can Shannon theory say whether we are dealing with information or not? And if Shannon theory cannot tell us whether we are dealing with information or not, I say I have made my point. It is simply illegitimate to conclude from Shannon theory that information can be meaningless. Eric:
So if information necessarily has meaning, as you appear to be arguing (and with which I would provisionally be inclined to agree), then — by definition — Shannon theory cannot tell us whether we are dealing with information or not. At least not in the underlying substance.
I agree, though perhaps not for the same reason. Even if it were in fact the case that information can be meaningless, how does the conclusion that information can be meaningless in any way follow from Shannon theory? How does Shannon theory establish that we are in fact dealing with information? Even if information does not necessarily have meaning, Shannon theory simply cannot tell us whether or not information must have or does have meaning. That is simply not in the remit of the theory. It simply cannot tell us what information is. Eric:
Thus the so-called “Shannon information” must be about something entirely different than the substance of the message, the substance of the string, the substance of the communication. The metric is measuring something separate from and apart from the underlying information. That is part of my whole point.
I agree! Whee! It is "measuring" (calculating would be better) probabilities of symbols/messages given certain already understood information. Shannon Information is not itself meaningless. Why should it lead people to conclude that non-Shannon Information can be meaningless? Where's the logic? I've argued all along that information is about something and that this is true as well of Shannon information. It's commonly accepted that Shannon Information is information, but less well understood (by far) what it [Shannon Information] is information about. Questions?Mung
July 3, 2014
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Neil:
Strictly speaking, it is Shannon information if it is part of a communication system or an information processing system.
And this is the case because communications systems are intended to be used for communication and information processing systems are intended to process information. I sure hope someone is understanding the fundamental error of (some of) the critics. What does it mean to say that you have communicated a nonsensical string of characters? What happens to a communication overwhelmed by noise? What happens to an information processing system fed a sequence of nonsensical bits? Say you have a communication system and it is used to transmit a meaningless string of characters. Does it logically follow that communication can be meaningless? communication
3 a : a process by which information is exchanged between individuals through a common system of symbols, signs, or behavior
Neil:
Strictly speaking, it is Shannon information if it is part of a communication system or an information processing system.
Not really. *sigh* Neil:
Marks on paper that just happen to look like letters would not count.
What does this even mean? You mean meaningless marks? Wouldn't the same hold true then for a sequence of meaningless symbols? Neil:
This is why it is reasonable to say that Shannon information is always specified (by being entered into a communication system).
Not really. Nothing *specifies* Shannon information. It can either be calculated or it cannot be calculated. What are the conditions that permit the calculation of Shannon information? You've certainly hinted at them in your post. Can you transition into "teaching mode" for a bit? Are there prerequisites for the calculation of the amount of Shannon information? What are they?Mung
July 3, 2014
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Eric:
Whoa, slow down there cowboy! Let Neil get a word in edge-wise!
LOL! ok, I just worked two days and two nights on minimal sleep. So Neil's had his chance :)Mung
July 3, 2014
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Well, Eric, in a sense all of this is about error correction! :)Mung
July 3, 2014
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groovamos @75: Thanks for the further comments. I'm not sure we have any real substantive disagreement, but perhaps I can clarify the purpose of my post, in case it wasn't clear. I am aware of the issues regarding transmission and error correction. Had I wished to do a post on those topics or to give an example in that area, I would have. While those are important aspects of Shannon's theory, to be sure, they are separate from the issue I am focusing on (and the one that so many anti-ID folks get hung up on), namely, the fact that the Shannon metric is not concerned with underlying meaning.
My suggestion . . . was based on the fact that the topic [error-free transmission] was not broached until my post, when errors were at the heart of your proposed scenario.
No. Errors in transmission were not at the heart of my analogy; they were irrelevant to it. My example assumes an error-free transmission. Again, the question of error-free transmission, correction, receipt, and even decoding, are not what I am focusing on. I am homing in on a very specific debating point that is all too often brought up by anti-ID proponents: namely, the claim that the mere generation of complexity (which, given relevant parameters, can be measured and assigned some numerical value using the Shannon metric) demonstrates that genetic algorithms, natural processes and the like can generate "information." That is false. At least it is false in any meaningful sense and is only nominally true if we twist the definition of "information" to mean something without substance. Thus my post. As to the other issues that don't directly relate to the debating point I am focusing on (but that I heartily agree are interesting in their own right -- things like error-free transmission), I would certainly love to see your post if you get a chance, and I'm sure I and many others can learn much from your experience and expertise.Eric Anderson
July 2, 2014
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Joe: Good catch on #10. I see what you are talking about. 1. The "specification" Neil refers to in #10 is indeed a design-based specification, and is an example of what we are talking about with ID. 2. However, the "specification" Neil refers to in #2 and #18 seems to be referring to the mere sequence of symbols that get plugged into a Shannon calculator or communication system. #1 is substantive, and is what we are interested in for ID purposes (as you note). #2 is merely descriptive, and is generally not what we are interested in for ID purposes.Eric Anderson
July 2, 2014
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Eric- Got it. However Neil originally said that specification, in the way it is used in the design industry, is a set of technical writings and/ or drawings/schematics pertaining to the object/ structure/ event. See Neil's comment in #10. And that is why he doesn't understand ID's use. I was trying to explain that it is the same and we infer that specification from the calculated (biological) information/functional sequence specificity of whatever structure we are examining. That also means we are removed from the world of mere intelligent agency involvement to actual intentional design, which is what ID is really after, IMO.Joe
July 2, 2014
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Joe @74: "Well I, for one, disagree that they are different." Joe, just to clarify, what Neil was referring to is the fact that in order to run a string (it could be any old random string) through a Shannon calculation, you have to "specify" what the string is. That is what he was calling a specification. As I mentioned to Neil, yes, it is true that you can "specify" a string by listing or reciting or entering into the system its sequence. It is true, but trivially true, and is not interesting for ID purposes. For ID, as you mentioned, we are interested in an underlying specification, a meaning, or function, or purpose, or representation. That is why his use of the word "specification" and what ID is talking about are not the same.
If just about any configuration can produce the function then it isn’t that specified.
I think that's right. BTW, it is also part of the confusion Dembski ran into in his paper, Irreducible Complexity Revisited, which I addressed in my lengthy and now-largely-forgotten response paper.Eric Anderson
July 2, 2014
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Eric: "I was simply responding (a bit harshly, I realize, and I apologize) to your suggestion that I didn’t know what I was talking about because there were all kinds of things that could be ascertained by an observer about the string, and how it came about, and how it was transmitted and so on." I did not suggest such. Your example of the quality of the cargo placed on the truck suggested that information theory maybe has a shortcoming in some philosophical sense. And maybe the philosophical sense is the only way you can go at it because neither you or anyone else brings error-correction to the table, I did, and then GBD also correctly ran with that aspect. So I take your example and where the wrong items have been shipped I suggest what theory can only contribute in the scenario and that is provide a foundation to correct the errors, and then when someone doesn't like the taste of what was shipped, their displeasure in text form can be transmitted error-free, or over a voice channel with lossy compression at minimum. I was hoping you appreciated attention to your blog by a couple of people with expertise in information theory. My suggestion that you maybe don't know the mechanisms of error-free transmissions was based on the fact that the topic was not broached until my post, when errors were at the heart of your proposed scenario. And that you obviously were counting on error-free appearance on our screens of your text. I might put up another post about the topic because I have a thesis project going with information theory at the core of it.groovamos
July 2, 2014
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Neil Rickert:
Given that I have never been able to make sense of the “specification” that ID proponents talk of, I can readily agree that they different.
Well I, for one, disagree that they are different. For example, Stonehenge- we can assume there was a design/ engineering specification, ie something that said what to build, what type of stones and where to place those stones, even though no one has ever found such a thing. The pyramids, same thing. The Antikythera mechanism must have had a design specification but no one has found one. That said, IDists say we can identify a specification by the functionality and what it takes to get that functionality. If just about any configuration can produce the function then it isn't that specified. If very few or only one configuration can produce it then we say it is specified. This all goes back to Crick's notion of biological information and the functionally specific sequences it takes for living organisms to produce the proteins they need to survive.Joe
July 2, 2014
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Neil @70: Thanks. Let me see if I can phrase the point about specification another way. Take the string: TOBEORNOTTOBETHATISTHEQUESTION Now take the string: ETTTBSNHOBOORTUEHTISEEATQTNOIO Both of those strings have a "specification" as you are using the term, meaning that the string consists of a series of letters in a particular sequence. And if we were to write out that specification, we would simply be writing out the sequence. In other words, the way you are using the term "specification," it simply means whatever sequence we happen to be looking at. And, yes, we can "specify" what sequence we are looking at by reciting the sequence. But that doesn't add anything or tell us anything beyond the sequence itself. However, it is also obvious, I trust, that there is something substantively different between the two strings. And that substance doesn't depend on the number of letters, or the number of particular kinds of letters, or even the number that will get spit out of a simple Shannon calculator. Rather, the difference lies in the fact that one string has underlying meaning, it has content, it specifies something (beyond the mere repetition of itself), it symbolizes something (again, beyond the mere repetition of itself). That is what we are talking about in the ID context by specification.
Given that I have never been able to make sense of the “specification” that ID proponents talk of, I can readily agree that they different.
It is rather basic, but let me see if I can take a stab at it. A specification in the context of a string as in our example, is the function, or the meaning, or the symbolic representation, as I've mentioned above. Again, take the two strings above. The second string can be described, it can be sequenced, it can be analyzed and calculated and poked and prodded and we can, through our faculties and tools, make lots of observations about that string.* We can also do the exact same thing with the first string and make every single similar kind of observation or analysis about it. And yet, when we are done with all that analysis, there is still something additional with the first string. Something symbolic, something meaningful, something representative -- something that specifies something beyond itself. That is a specification for ID purposes. It is not mysterious or unusual or tricky. Indeed, in most cases it is so obvious that we tend to gloss over it or don't give it a second thought. As we go about our lives we are literally swimming in specifications, so we take it for granted. So sometimes I find it is helpful to step back to a simple example just to home in on what we are talking about. Thanks, ----- * Some people get confused and think that this means the string "contains" information. It doesn't, as discussed in detail on the prior thread I referenced.Eric Anderson
July 1, 2014
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GBDixon @67: Thanks for the additional comments. Your example of the Rosetta Stone is precisely on point, and is an excellent example of information being there, available for the discovery. As is the information in the cell. I think I'm largely in agreement with your thoughts on that point. The only nuance, perhaps, is that I would suggest that we need to acknowledge that information can exist independently of the observer/recipient. Indeed, if we take the view that information only comes into existence at the point of recognition, then we have inadvertently collapsed two separate concepts into one: the existence of information and the recognition of that information. Anyway, I don't mean to get into that here and go OT. We discussed it in some detail in a prior thread. I don't think you had a chance to comment on the prior thread, but it might be interesting to read if you haven't already, as it is very much on point with the issues you mentioned. https://uncommondescent.com/informatics/id-basics-information-part-ii-when-does-information-arise/ Thanks again for the good thoughts.Eric Anderson
July 1, 2014
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groovamos @66: I don't disagree with the idea that a mind must be involved with information. I have stated as much elsewhere and didn't say anything to the contrary here. I was simply responding (a bit harshly, I realize, and I apologize) to your suggestion that I didn't know what I was talking about because there were all kinds of things that could be ascertained by an observer about the string, and how it came about, and how it was transmitted and so on. It is not the case that I didn't realize any of those things. I certainly realize them, have dealt with them in a prior post, and have moved on to a separate, more narrow issue in my exchange with Neil. Specifically, the whole point of my string example was to try and ascertain from Neil what he thinks the term "Shannon information" means, since he had made the (rather strange to me) statement that the string itself is the Shannon information. Please don't read anything into my question to Neil beyond that. I generally agree with you that mind is quite relevant to the exercise of (i) producing information, and (ii) recognizing information. (Though this is not to ignore the very interesting question of whether information can exist objectively independent of an observer, which has been discussed on a prior thread). At any rate, I apologize if my response was too harsh. I've addressed the basic aspects of information in other threads and in this one I am trying to home in on a couple of rather technical points due to the confusion some have (as evidenced by some of the comments on this thread) about what the Shannon metric can and can't tell us.Eric Anderson
July 1, 2014
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Eric (#60):
We could, I suppose, refer to the mere sequence of any string as a “specification”, which is really no more substantive than saying that the sequence is what it is. In other words, we would be saying that the sequence equals the specification and we could just use the word “sequence” instead of “specification”.
I'm not quite sure of the point that you are raising there. When you earlier asked about a string of letters, you called them letters. You did not call them pencil marks or illuminated dots on the screen. By calling them letters, you identified them as symbols rather than marks. And symbols, at least as I look at them, are abstract intentional objects rather than physical objects. I'm inclined to say that there is already some specification going on when we take something to be a symbol.
But we need to keep in mind that this is different from the “specification” concept that design advocates talk about.
Given that I have never been able to make sense of the "specification" that ID proponents talk of, I can readily agree that they different.Neil Rickert
July 1, 2014
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Fantastic discussion. I've hammered this home on numerous occasions.... the encoder/decoder problem.... And this alone makes Darwinian evolution the poppycock it is.....Andre
July 1, 2014
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Is anyone else smiling. No? Okay... :)Upright BiPed
July 1, 2014
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Eric@62, Thank you, you are very gracious. We have many situations regarding information, don't we? Where there is a sender and receiver, they together establish what is information by a contract usually called a protocol. Our Ethernet, cell phones, etc. all operate under these various protocols. You touch on what might be called latent information: we learn nothing from it at present, but we know it is there and if we only knew a little more it would become true information to us. The Rosetta stone is an example, I think. Here we had all these ancient texts...we knew they had valuable information but couldn't decipher it. After the Rosetta stone was discovered that information became available to us. Here was a situation where there were senders and receivers but no contract. We had to figure out the senders' protocols on our own. The cell is similar. With each new discovery more information is unlocked. We know there is much, much more we do not yet understand. Because the sender is unknown to us, we are left to our own devices to figure out the protocols. I too believe latent information exists, that it is not true information to us simply because we do not know what it means, but that it will someday reveal many things. The ability of the cell to preserve seemingly worthless DNA sequences over eons hints that there are buried treasures we have yet to discover.GBDixon
July 1, 2014
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Eric: I think it not irrelevant at all to point out that it requires a mind to determine relevance, but that is my opinion, maybe not yours. You intended for your string to be irrelevant. It is obvious that it was your intent, and whether or not it is relevant what your intent was to the study of statistical communications, is really a matter of personal opinion, which requires a mind. An anemometer connected to a telemetry system sends back what to you would likely look like "random" bit sequences. With correct knowledge of the formatting and coding ( a big chunk of information in itself) the bit stream can be converted in to a sequence of numbers in "real" time, possibly very useful information. A researcher tries to fit the numbers to a statistical curve and concludes that they indicate a Rayleigh probability density for the velocity. This might invoke from you a "so what" response. If you had another piece (a well-known one) of information in your mind, you might instead say "Oh the wind speed with direction using any orthogonal coordinate set is a joint Gaussian probability with equal variances". So at different point along the communication/information chain your ability to make sense of an otherwise seemingly meaningless bit stream requires more information. How important the information is at any point of the analysis is obviously a matter of opinion or mind.groovamos
July 1, 2014
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jerry @63:
. . . create noise and prevent communication.
LOL! Great use of Shannon terminology! :)Eric Anderson
July 1, 2014
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groovamos @61: With respect, you are getting caught up in irrelevancies. As an intelligent being, are there things you can ascertain or discover or infer about some object in the real world (whether a rock at the seashore or a string of characters on your screen)? Sure. Lots of things. You can infer that I wrote my string with Caps Lock on, on a computer, that it was transmitted without error, etc. Those are things you can ascertain -- pieces of information you can discover -- about the string. All of that is 100% irrelevant to the question that was posed: Does the sequence of characters itself contain information? We have addressed in detail previously on this forum the difference between (i) an observer being able to discover information about an object (what you are focusing on), and (ii) representative information encoded in or contained in the object. It is critical to distinguish between these two. Your comments are exactly on point for (i). But they are completely irrelevant to what we were discussing, which is (ii).Eric Anderson
July 1, 2014
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GBDixon, I hope you come back. Your explanation at 57 was one of the best I have seen on this site. I usually tune out when someone discusses Shannon information because it is usually obtuse and then there is the contentious bunch who always want to create noise and prevent communication. So reconsider. Your posts have been a breath of fresh air.jerry
July 1, 2014
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GBDixon @57:
This will be my last comment. I have irritated our host and come off as a know-it-all.
I hope you're not referring to me, as I certainly haven't been irritated by your comments. I appreciate your thoughts.
But once the messages are received they are decoded and meaning is once again assigned to each message. We are back into the domain where meaning matters.
Meaning definitely matters to the normal concept of information, and I think your breaking down the communication process is helpful. A separate question is whether there is information independent of the recipient. We have discussed this in some detail previously and, I think, concluded that information arises at the recipient side -- by definition prior to the time it is encoded. Later, if there is a recipient who can receive and understand the information that has been encoded, great. If not, it doesn't necessarily mean that the information doesn't exist. It is still there and could be discovered later. For example, the information encoded in DNA was there -- objectively functioning and doing what it was supposed to do -- for millennia before the genetic code was discovered.Eric Anderson
July 1, 2014
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You know really, you guys, at least some of you, I think you miss something really fundamental. The usefulness of information can only be surmised by a mind. Just because one of you throws out a string of characters and denies that it is information, that denial itself can be determined to be information, or denied to be information. For example the length of that string might be an indicator in how much of a hurry was the contributor. So when Eric A typed out his two strings above, he thinks they mean nothing. But I have a mind, strangely enough, and I can tell that there was a high probability his caps lock key was on during both of his strings. This is information. Also, since I can see that there were no spaces and no significant wording to his strings, I can discern something of his intent, and his intent was to post gibberish for part of the post and to use it for didactic purposes. Especially since he did not reveal in the post any real world process by which the strings were created, even when ignoring all of his philosophical points. This is information. He did not type any punctuation characters, and so I can tell that he was biased against a significant subset of the ASCII code, admittedly I don't know why or if it was just a temporary bias, but that is more information. And actually Eric has never even said anything about why, when he types a meaningless string, why we are all confident that what he keyed is what we all see on our screens, because none of us can check for spelling on those strings. And so that tells me that Eric is confident that all of his keyed input appears with no errors on all of our screens, without speculating on why that is, after reaching each of us via a unique set of channels. And that his "meaningless" strings did transfer error-free and did not appear with a couple of non-trivial words to one or two of us because of errors. Eric's confidence in that error-free transmission is more information about him, but I believe there is little probability he understands why it is error-free and that is information.groovamos
July 1, 2014
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BTW, Neil, getting back to the question @53: Since you answered 'no' to the meaning option, I take it you are saying that the simple act of something being entered in a communication system makes it a "specification." We could, I suppose, refer to the mere sequence of any string as a "specification", which is really no more substantive than saying that the sequence is what it is. In other words, we would be saying that the sequence equals the specification and we could just use the word "sequence" instead of "specification". Yes, we can refer to the sequence of a string as its "specification," and that might make sense as a shorthand in some circumstances. That is a purely descriptive sense, and (as Shannon mentioned) is devoid of any concept of substance or meaning. But we need to keep in mind that this is different from the "specification" concept that design advocates talk about. In this latter case we are very much concerned with substance and meaning and purpose and function. ----- This all really underscores the broader point of my post. Namely, the concept of Shannon "information" is not really helpful or relevant to the key issues of specified information and design. Shannon information is helpful and relevant only for the base identification of "complexity" in certain circumstances. So it can help with the "C" of "CSI", but is not really useful for thinking about the "S" or even the "I".Eric Anderson
July 1, 2014
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GBDixon- Thank you for your posts- You haven't irritated me and that says quite a bit because when it comes to information this information technologist is a know-it-all who would have been irritated had you posted nonsense. ;)Joe
July 1, 2014
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