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Crocker, Sisson, Cordova, Chenette: TV special on ID in Higher Education

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Caroline Crocker

Feature: The Intelligent Design Controversy in Higher Education
This week on The Coral Ridge Hour we look at Intelligent Design, a movement which is gaining adherents at colleges and universities around the world. But what about professors who dare to challenge evolution by presenting alternatives to students? As you are about to see, the consequences can be severe.

The main focus will be the case of Caroline Crocker, a former professor of biology at George Mason University. Six years ago, in the course of her research, she came to see that Darwinian evolution was scientifically indefensible and untrue. This TV report details the ordeal she endured for the cause of scientific truth in the face of those seeking to suppress it. Edward Sisson, her attorney, will also be featured along with the GMU IDEA club president Christine Chenette and myself (the co-founder of the club). (This is the same band of rebels who were featured in a cover story by the prestigious scientific journal Nature last year.)

The news report will be featured as part of the Coral Ridge Hour, but before I offer any more details, I need to state an important disclaimer: The views of the Coral Ridge organization do no necessarily reflect my views nor the views of other authors at Uncommon Descent.

That said, go to www.coralridgehour.org to get local listings of the shows. The broadcast will also be available on the internet after Sunday. So don’t worry guys if you miss it on TV. The show will last an hour. The news report will air somewhere in between parts of a religious service, but I don’t know where. However, the internet version will carry only the news report, so you all may just decide to watch that.

In addition to Caroline Crocker’s case, this story will touch on the plight of pro-ID students in our nation’s universities. The number of ID friendly students is hard to estimate, but the best numbers I have indicate the biology curriculums have between 10%-33% pro-IDers at the freshman level. No one really knows at this time how many of those will matriculate to graduation. Furthermore, these polls were conducted with varying degrees of rigor and scope. I’ve seen estimates as high as 40% of students accepting special creation, and maybe as many as 75% are at least curious about the topics of ID and special creation. There may indeed be a revolution in the making, and only time will tell, but I’m cautiously optimistic. One can only imagine the effect on scientific culture if legions of Michael Behe’s, Paul Nelson’s, Jon Wells’, Bill Dembski’s, Phil Johnson’s start graduating from our nation’s schools in the next 20 years. You get the picture. :=)

But the aspect I focus on in this essay is not the TV special, but what the TV special signifies with Coral Ridge choosing to air the story, namely, the fact Evangelicals and creationists are warming to ID. Coral Ridge and the Presbyterian Church of America (PCA) are among the first organizations that I’m aware of to have given a degree of endorsement to ID, and this broadcast is important in elevating ID’s reputation among the Evangelicals.

At Uncommon Descent we have celebrated the recent friendliness the Catholic Church has extended toward ID. What is less appreciated is that various Protestant denominations and creationists are beginning to warm to ID. This is good news for ID, because contrary to what critics of ID would have you think, there have been significant rifts between creationists and IDers. But equally important is the fact that creationists are beginning to understand that creationism is theologically premised, but ID is not.

There are many nuances to the relationship between creationists and IDers, and these nuances are not easily described. In brief, the IDers have been welcoming, but the creationists have not always reciprocated. Here was the state of affair six years ago from an IDer’s perspective:

Intelligent Design Coming Clean, November 11, 2000 by Bill Dembski

Theists of all stripes are to be sure welcome. But the boundaries of intelligent design are not limited to theism. I personally have found an enthusiastic reception for my ideas not only among traditional theists like Jews, Christians, and Muslims, but also among pantheists, New-Agers, and agnostics who don’t hold their agnosticism dogmatically. Indeed, proponents of intelligent design are willing to sit across the table from anyone willing to have us.

That willingness, however, means that some of the people at the table with us will also be young earth creationists. Throughout my brief tenure as director of Baylor’s Michael Polanyi Center, adversaries as well as supporters of my work constantly pointed to my unsavory associates. I was treated like a political figure who is unwilling to renounce ties to organized crime. It was often put to me: “Dembski, you’ve done some respectable work, but look at the disreputable company you keep.” Repeatedly I’ve been asked to distance myself not only from the obstreperous likes of Phillip Johnson but especially from the even more scandalous young earth creationists.

I’m prepared to do neither. That said, let me stress that loyalty and friendship are not principally what’s keeping me from dumping my unsavory associates. Actually, I rather like having unsavory associates

In contrast to IDers like Bill rolling out the red carpet, there has been a disappointing lack of reciprocity from the creationists, and occasional hostility. This was epitomized by an irritating YEC promotional campaign against ID: Intelligent design: is it intelligent; is it Christian? by Answers in Genesis (AiG).

But thankfully, there are some creationist and Evangelical organizations who have warmed to ID and understand that ID is not a theological body of ideas, but rather a theology-free science. This upcoming TV show symbolizes growing acceptance of ID’s theology-free origins science in its proper context within Evangelical and creationist circles. This is no small development, because IDers would do well to tap into a large base of potential interest (110 million Americans who accept special creation of humans) rather than trying to persuade individuals who have paid their mortgages and gained respect in society by promoting naturalistic evolution. (And if anyone criticizes me for making an ID sales pitch to religious organizations, I’ll counter by pointing to the NCSE’s Faith Project Director.)

What may be ironic is that the theology-free character of ID is what actually makes it very appealing to people of faith who may be sitting on the fence on various issues. Personally, 6 years ago, I was turned off by heavy-handed tactics by AiG and similar organizations who demanded blind acceptance of their origins theology and labeled anyone who disagreed with or doubted them as either compromisers or agents of the devil. When they lumped James Dobson along with the “compromisers” I decided I had my fill of the prevailing YEC culture, and rather found my home in ID’s big tent. YEC edicts demanding unquestioned belief conveyed desperation, rather than confidence in brute empirical facts. Thus I found the writings of Denton, Jastrow, Berlinski, Tipler, Barrow more compelling than Ken Ham or Henry Morris.

Interestingly in the secular colleges, I’ll ask of even the most conservative Evangelical creationists , “Assuming all things equal, with respect to science, who’s word would carry more weight with you, someone like Michael Denton or a Bible-believer like Ken Ham?” Almost invariably, they’ll answer Michael Denton! This again, reinforces the fact, theology-free science is more persuasive at defeating Darwinism than theology-filled edicts (see: Howard Van Till’s journey from Calvinism into freethought to see the effect of theology-filled edicts.)

For me personally, the challenge has been persuading people of the Evangelical faith that the science-alone approach of ID does not disrespect their practice of faith. This is challenging in light of Phil Johnson’s admonition to all IDers:

the first thing that has to be done is to get the Bible out of the discussion

Contrast this to creationist Ken Ham’s (AiG) approach:

Don’t let Bible be let out of the conversation

Argue from the authority of the Bible

Don’t let young age of the Earth be conceded as that’s how you’ll lose the argument

The problem is world views

But to people of faith, I argue Ken Ham’s approach to the exclusion of all other approaches is wrong, and often dishonoring to the very faith he professes. He is contradicted by Romans 1:20, Acts 17:16-32, John 10:38. Thus in matters of origins science, to honor my faith, to honor the promise that Nature will testify of design independent of theology, I side with Phil Johnson, and affirm that in many cases (not all), the right thing to do in God’s eyes is to:

get the Bible out of the discussion

Some Evangelicals reading this may have issues with what I said. I point out I’m not alone in my position:

The pressure to justify art, science, and entertainment in terms of their spiritual value or evangelistic usefulness ends up damaging both the gift of creation and the gift of the Gospel.

Michael S. Horton, Westminster Theological Seminary
Where in the World Is the Church?

Furthermore, ID does not claim to be infallible nor does it make any theological statement beyond the reasonableness of the scientific method. There is no reason therefore any Evangelical should consider ID contrary to their theology since ID makes no theological claims, and does not assert infallibility. It is no more theologically premised than chemistry, math, physics, and information science. However, I should point out that science with no theological premise does not mean a science with no theological implications. How can that be?

Consider the Laws of Thermodynamics. These laws are as theology-free as one can ask for. These laws strongly suggests stars cannot possibly burn forever, but if so, then that means the stars and all the universe must not have been around forever. This fact, combined with various astrophysical observations (like red shifts), forced scientists to reluctantly conclude the universe had a beginning. But a universe with a beginning has very strong theological implications even though the science leading to those implications was theology-free (see: God and the Astronomers by Robert Jastrow). And then more recently, Belinfante, Barrow, Tipler and others point out that Quantum Mechanics may necessitate a Universal Intelligence at the root of reality (see: Peer Reviewed Stealth ID Classic). In like manner, ID and its surrounding theories are theology-free, but they have theological implications.

With that in mind, I hope the readers will excuse me for trying to reach out to my fellow Evangelicals and creationists reading this weblog by quoting from the scriptures which they reverence. By doing so up front, I can reassure them that there will be times it will be more honoring to their Christian faith to take the Bible out of the discussion than to leave it in. And thus it is my hope by appealing to the beliefs they hold dear, that they will argue the case for origins in the secular world using purely scientific arguments.

50% of the US believes in special creation and another 25% might be sympathetic to some form of ID. It is within this 75% of the nation’s populace that the theoretical underpinnings of ID have the best chance of being heard, received, and researched. This 75% figure carries over to the young, who will be the scientists of tomorrow. It is this demographic group which I think we should seek to reach and encourage more than the 25% who have a financial, social, and personal interests in maintaining the status quo.

It is to that audience, that I have principally made my appeal with this essay. And I encourage this audience to support the diversity of views under ID’s big tent, and to find ways to respectfully cooperate with others who hold different personal beliefs. When an atmosphere is fostered where creationists can be welcoming and supportive of people like Michael Denton, Frank Tipler, John Barrow, David Berlinski, John Angus Campbell, John Davison, Jeffrey Schwartz, Charles Townes, and more people than I can possibly list — then a more effective path will be open for exploration of our origins.

Salvador Cordova
Salvador Cordova
PS
The battles between the die-hard YECers and IDers are there. For example, here is a tiff within my own denomination regarding YECers, IDers and holders of other views. I’m part of the Potomac Presbytery which in the following letter is seen rebuking the Westminster Presbytery: An Open Letter to Our Brother Elders of Westminster Presbytery. Also, from the Mere Creation website, here is a very good look theological issues regarding ID: Report of the Creation Study Committee (Presbyterian Church in America). Their recommendations are welcome news for ID:

Thus, the church must be prepared to address the claimed “scientific truths” of the science communities and be prepared to “manage by fact” as the data from the science pours forth. The present day intelligent design movement would appear to be a good example of how the church in the broader evangelical context can be effective in this manner.

Comments
I mean David's decendent... or David was His ancestor.dodgingcars
August 12, 2006
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"from the Creationist point of view, those who do not believe in what God said in Genesis 1-11 are willingly or unwillingly (to use your words) agents of the devil, and/or compromisers. This is not character assassination, but the position one would logically take, IF we believe that everything that goes against Revealed Authority is evil. Well, of Dr Dobson doesn’t take Genesis as written, what’s wrong in saying that he has compromised?" I consider myself an Evangelical Christian, but I am not a YEC and I do not believe that the Bible teaches a young Earth. The 6-8 thousand year old Earth was not even a popular belief among Christians until about 200 years ago. The age, from what I can tell, is measured by YEC's by using the genealogy, but this is flawed, IMO because there is a difference between Hebrew and English and words like "son" in Hebrew cannot be properly translated into English. The Hebrew word for "son" and "father" can mean several generations... just like Jesus was called the Son of David. He wasn't literally David's son, but instead he was David's ancestor. So if this is all we were told, "Jesus is the son of David", then how could we possibly measure time? The other problem I see with YEC's is their view in a literal six day. Not that it can't be true, but why would someone who didn't believe it be labeled a compromiser? Here again is a place in the Bible where the Hebrew word doesn't properly translate to English. The word "day" can also mean "eon." And in some ways that makes more sense than a 24-hour period anyway, because a day (sun rise and set and rise again) could not have existed before God created it (the sun was not created until day 4). For me there is no compromise in believing in both a 13 billion old Earth and that dinosaurs and man did NOT live together, because I don't believe the Bible says anything contrary to those beliefs. And no, I don't believe that those people who DO have contrary beliefs to the Bible is evil (any moreso than myself, at least).dodgingcars
August 12, 2006
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Discovery Institute Fellow John Angus Campbell (the one Darwinist I\'ve ever know to receive a standing ovation and Amens from YECs!) pointed me to these words by John Stuart Mill. It sets the spirit for the exploraiton of ID, and unwittingly gives reason why ID will be in then end more presuasive then prodding people to subscribe to credal edicts. A confession of faith should be voluntary after all, not compulsory:
On Liberty But the peculiar evil of silencing the expression of an opinion is, that it is robbing the human race; posterity as well as the existing generation; those who dissent from the opinion, still more than those who hold it. If the opinion is right, they are deprived of the opportunity of exchanging error for truth: if wrong, they lose, what is almost as great a benefit, the clearer perception and livelier impression of truth, produced by its collision with error. ... We have now recognized the necessity to the mental well-being of mankind (on which all their other well-being depends) of freedom of opinion, and freedom of the expression of opinion, on four distinct grounds; which we will now briefly recapitulate. First, if any opinion is compelled to silence, that opinion may, for aught we can certainly know, be true. To deny this is to assume our own infallibility. Secondly, though the silenced opinion be an error, it may, and very commonly does, contain a portion of truth; and since the general or prevailing opinion on any subject is rarely or never the whole truth, it is only by the collision of adverse opinions that the remainder of the truth has any chance of being supplied. Thirdly, even if the received opinion be not only true, but the whole truth; unless it is suffered to be, and actually is, vigorously and earnestly contested, it will, by most of those who receive it, be held in the manner of a prejudice, with little comprehension or feeling of its rational grounds. And not only this, but fourthly, the meaning of the doctrine itself will be in danger of being lost, or enfeebled, and deprived of its vital effect on the character and conduct: the dogma becoming a mere formal profession, inefficacious for good, but encumbering the ground, and preventing the growth of any real and heartfelt conviction, from reason or personal experience.
scordova
August 12, 2006
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I wish to thank everyone who has posted to this thread, even those who have expressed a difference of opinion. As can be seen by this thread, there are a diveristy of views. I am sorry if I seem overtly bitter to AiG and ICR, but they have had a history of stabbing other YECs in the back like Barry Setterfield. They have given a rather cold shoulder to YECs like Walter Brown, A.E Wilder Smith, and various members of the Baraminilogy Study Group, and definitely YECs within the ID movement. I was an OEC in 2005, today I consider myself 75% YEC, but I am not dogmatic. I tried to point out some recent developments in my own denomination where I would be considered persona non grata, as well as the entire leadership of Potomac Presbytery where I have membership in the PCA. I'm writing this essay partly with the hope that Ham's dogmatism doesn't drive Christians and Christian IDers out of the church!!!! This would be bad for the Christian faith, and it would be bad for ID. I'm writing in an appeal to the Christians of Conservative denominations because I am concerned militant YECism can subvert interest in ID, but more importantly, that there is no need to make YECism a litmus test for someone's Christianity. I will first state the die-hard YEC position as articulated by Westminster Presbytery: 1. Westminster Presbytery
Therefore, Westminster Presbytery does declare and make known to the world and to all churches, especially our own denomination, our churches, our presbyteries, our General Assembly and the seminaries from which our candidates arise, that we will not tolerate these views in any teaching elder seeking admittance to this Presbytery, or any other man seeking to be licensed or to become a candidate for the ministry under care of this Presbytery. Furthermore, Westminster Presbytery considers that any view which departs from the confessional doctrine of creation in six 24 hour days strikes at the fundamentals of the system of doctrine set forth in the Holy Scriptures.
and then Potomac Presbytery's response (I am a member of a congregation in Potomac Presbytery)
An Open Letter to Our Brother Elders of Westminster Presbytery 6. Finally, we are dismayed by what appear to us to be the implications of your concluding declaration: "that we will not tolerate these views in any teaching elder seeking admittance to this Presbytery, or any other man seeking to be licensed or to become a candidate for the ministry under care of this Presbytery. Furthermore, Westminster Presbytery considers that any view which departs from the confessional doctrine of creation in six 24 hour days strikes at the fundamentals of the system of doctrine set forth in the Holy Scriptures." What would you have us make of this? Your assertion that there is nothing in the text to even hint at the views you condemn is surely too strong. "Strikes at the fundamentals"? How can this be so? Surely we can distinguish between faithfulness to the broad historicity of the text essential to the Gospel and the difficulty of construing certain Scripture texts in relation to statements of scientific cosmology. Are you really declaring that men such as C. Hodge, Shedd, Beattie, Adger, A.A. Hodge, Warfield, Bavinck, Machen, Schaeffer, and Gerstner, as well as many lesser but faithful servants here in Potomac, are not fit to be ministers of the Gospel in the PCA? (See, e.g., the attached statements of Shedd and Bavinck.) [Note: Not Available on the web at this time] Your "Declaration" appears to us to suggest that you believe we cannot live together in the same ecclesiastical fellowship--that you would have those of us who hold the views you disagree with defrocked. We may also ask, And what of those of us who share your view of Genesis 1, but do not agree that other views deny the fundamentals of our system. Is this a denial of a fundamental as well? Must we go too? Must we all be put out of office, or would you have us resign? Is this what you intend? Our brothers, we plead with you to reconsider. Please reflect upon what appears to us to be the godly wisdom of Carl Henry, one of the chief defenders of the inerrancy of God's Word in our time. After nearly 100 pages summarizing in detail and comparing the arguments and counter-arguments of creationists, theistic evolutionists, gap and multiple gap theorists, big-bangers, naturalists, humanists, etc., Henry concludes: "It would be a strategic and theological blunder of the first magnitude were evangelicals to elevate the current dispute over dating to credal status, or to consider one or another of the scientific options a test of theological fidelity. Faith in an inerrant Bible does not rest on a commitment to the recency or antiquity of the earth or even to only a 6000-year antiquity for man; the Genesis account does not fix the precise antiquity of either the earth or of man. Exodus 20:11, to which scientific creationists appeal when insisting that biblical inerrancy requires recent creation, is not decisive; while God's seventh-day rest sanctions the sabbath day, Genesis hardly limits God's rest to a 24-hour period. The Bible does not require belief in six literal 24-hour creation days on the basis of Genesis 1-2 nor does it require belief in successive ages corresponding to modern geological periods. . . ." "Now as never before the timeless tenets of evangelical theism need to be affirmed and reaffirmed as the great central theme of the creation account, to wit: the First Adam or man is a creation supernaturally made in the image of God, an historical being divinely fashioned from the dust of earth and rationally, morally, spiritually, genetically and culturally different from any prior species of life. Irrespective of their disagreement over the antiquity or recency of Adam, all evangelical scholars insist on the special divine creation, historicity, distinctiveness and fall of Adam, and, moreover, that the hope of humanity lies in the divine promise and provision of redemption and in the relationship of renewed man to the Second Adam and King of the Cosmos." [From Carl F.H. Henry, God, Revelation and Authority, vol. VI, God Who Stands and Stays, part 2 (Waco, TX: Word Books, 1983), pp. 225-226, 227.] For the sake of our Lord; for the sake of our past comradeship in the good cause of Scriptural and Confessional fidelity in the PCA; for the sake of our common participation in the Gospel: let not this "Declaration" be the final word. Unanimously adopted, 6/12/98
Finally, the reason for this essay is becaue of my concern of militant YECism's threat to ID. Whaterver one's beliefs are regarding theology, I respect them, even if I disagree. I, as YEC (well 75% anyway), however am concerned for the plight of ID because of the attitude of some YECs. Regarding AiG and ICR, their science has often been substandard if not embarassingly wrong. It does not give a Christian much confidence that they should be right with their "my way or the highway" theological pronouncements. Here, for example, is the case of a minority of YECers (Barry Setterfield,Lambert Dolphin, and others) being systematically suppressed by the ICR's staff by people like Glen Morton and Gerald Aardsma: Upheaval in Physics: History of the Speed of Light
And there is a reason why the major creation organizations [like ICR] are holding his work [Barry Setterfield] at an arm's length as well: they are sinking great amounts of money into trying to prove that radiometric dating procedures are fatally flawed. According to what Barry is seeing, however, they are not basically flawed at all: there is a very good reason why such old dates keep appearing in the test results. The rate of decay of radioactive elements is directly related to the speed of light. When the speed of light was higher, decay rates were faster, and the long ages would be expected to show up. As the speed of light slowed down, so the radioactive decay rates slowed down. By assuming today's rate of decay has been uniform, the earth and universe look extremely old. Thus, the evolutionists are happy with the time that gives for evolution and the creationists are looking for flaws in the methods used for testing for dates. But if the rates of decay for the different elements have not been the same through time, then that throws both groups off! Here was an "atomic clock" which ran according to atomic processes and, possibly, a different "dynamical" clock, the one we use everyday, which is governed by gravity - the rotation and revolution rates of the earth and moon. Could it be that these two "clocks" were not measuring time the same way? A data analysis suggested this was indeed happening. Tom Van Flandern, with a Ph.D. from Yale in astronomy, specializing in celestial mechanics, and for twenty years (1963-1983) Research Astronomer and Chief of the Celestial Mechanics Branch at the U.S. Naval Observatory in Washington D.C., released the results of some tests showing that the rate of ticking of the atomic clock was measurably slowing down when compared with the "dynamical clock." [9] (Tom Van Flandern was terminated from his work with that institution shortly thereafter, although his work carries a 1984 publication date.)
Whether Barry Setterfield is right or wrong, dogmatism is bad for open and free exploration. Setterfield's ideas may have the chance to rescue YEC theory, but if it's systematically suppressed by ICR and AiG, what chance will it have unless more free-thinking YECs advocate open inquiry. Salvadorscordova
August 12, 2006
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Mats: "Secondly, yes, from the Creationist point of view, those who do not believe in what God said in Genesis 1-11 are willingly or unwillingly (to use your words) agents of the devil, and/or compromisers." As one who sports a bachelors degree with a minor in theology from a respected evangelical college, let me object. This is the exact kind of cornering that YEC is famous for. The YEC community condemns fellow christians for not reading the Bible with the same interpretation that they do. Having studied this topic, and especially Geneisis 1 and 2 carefully, let me suggest that Genesis 1 is easier to interpret as "long days" than as 24 hour days. Let me make the 'mini-case'. 1 - On interpretation of scripture, we note that God said to Adam, "In the day you eat of it, you will surely die." At the time God said this, this was the only Scripture that had yet been revealed to Adam. Yet when Adam ate, his immediate "death" was metaphorical, not literal. His literal death came over 500 years later. This to say, a "literal unless literal cannot be supported" interpretive position is in error. I repeat, ALL SCRIPTURE THAT Adam HAD would indicate that literal, physical death should follow his sin within 24 hours. Correct interpretation was metaphorical, even though a literal interpretation was feasible. 2 - The best single case I can find for an old earth interpretation of Geneis 1 (not the only case) is this: In Genesis 2, Adam was asked to name all of the animals. It became clear that none of the animals would make a reasonable mate for him, and Eve was made. All of this activity, especially any sense on Adam's part of his own loneliness, fitting within 24 hours is not reasonable. Genesis 1 clearly says that on the sixth day, "man and woman created he them." The literal interpretation, therefore, is not a comforatable fit. All this to say, please don't go playing the Devil's role of "accuser of the brethren" when trying to strong-arm us other Christians into accepting a YEC position. Now, I recognize that ID does not make a presentation that easily slides into the Genesis account. There is no scientific evidence of a flood that whiped out all but 7. There is no scientific evidence that man used to live for hundreds, nearly thousands, of years. There is no evidence that man began about 6 thousand years ago with a single pair. ID certainly is an uncomfortable fit with a Geneis account. I believe it necessary, however, to live within this ambiguity, and allow ID to follow the evidence wherever it leads. Time, I bet, will unify Scripture and science. I suspect that Scripture will have to move farther than my interpretation has allowed it, however. As far as the relationship of ID to religion goes, I don't understand why this is a problem, yet for Jpark320 it seems to be. He says, "Your church is even using ID in an 'evangelical context,' I would consider this 'Bibie in' and not 'theologically free.'" How do we explain the issue of horses and carts. When horses push carts, directional control is very difficult. When horses pull carts, directional control, and the horses vision, work just fine. Therefore it is important to have the horse in front of the cart, not the proverbial cart before the horse. Now, YEC says, "The Bible says this, let's find facts to support it." The result is extreme selectivity about which facts are considered. Materialists say, "We are looking for evidence that does not include a 'God' interpretation." The result is extreme selectivity about which facts are considered. Lets face it, IDers have their own adjendas. However, IDers are hardly unified in their adjenda. IDers have looked at a lot of evidence that seems much easier to understand with an "intelligent cause" interpretation. This is the horse of science. This horse is, for the most part, before the cart of religious perspective. Therefore, thought the cart may well be going along for the ride, the horse is still in front, not the cart. Don't beleive me? Read carefully for the religious perspectives of the scientists on this and other ID forums (Particularly note the telicthoughts.com site.) Though some have a very clear religious perspectve, others very much don't. Now go to the YEC sites, and look at the biologists who write on those sites (there are some). Show me one who is not clearly "Judeo-Christain". YEC is a perfect "Christan" filter, ID is by no means so.bFast
August 12, 2006
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johnnyb wrote: First of all, I’ve had my own trouble joining some YEC organizations because apparently I’m not fundamentalist enough Some of the exclusionary policies of YEC organizations have turned off a number of YEC researchers.
Ain\'t that the irony, johnnyb. You and me both would be outcasts from a number of YEC places. We\'re the unsavory of unsavory associates, and I guess that would make it appropo that we\'re at Uncommon Descent (dissent)! :-)scordova
August 12, 2006
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Thanks Sal, Mats, Johnnyb, and BarryA for stimulating comments. May I encourage using “all of the above” as they apply to the situation at hand for a common purpose against a common enemy. See: “To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some.” 1 Corinthians 9:22 Young Earth: Some will accept evidence of a young earth, that clearly reveals a Creator and eliminates Darwinism. On Mars Hill, Paul appealed to an historic supernatural intervention in their own culture memorialized by altars to the unknown God - referring to stopping the plague after sacrificing to the unknown God on 7 altars. See Richardson, Don, Eternity in Their Hearts. Regal Books 1981 Where some accept evidence and modeling that the information in the genome cannot have occurred by chance and time given all the possible time in an old universe, that equally identifies an Intelligent Designer and eliminates Darwinism. Information theory: Specified Information cannot be explained by Darwinism and points to Intelligent Cause or the Creator. See: See Werner Gitt, In the Beginning was Information, (2000) ISBN 3-89397-255-2 with extensive information theorems (from a YEC view, including applying them to the Bible). Population genetics models using ID assumptions demonstrates that the genome could not have arisen by Random Mutation and Natural Selection. See: John C. Sanford, Genetic Entropy & the Mystery of the Genome (2005) ISBN: 1599190028. He reviews major literature population models (without appealing to the Bible.) Irreducible complexity can equally eliminate Darwinism and infer an Intelligent Designer. See Michael Behe Darwin's Black Box: The Biochemical Challenge to Evolution (1998) and (2006) Free Press; 2Rev Ed edition (March 7, 2006) ISBN: 0743290313 Constitutions: The Magna Carta, Declaration of Independence and US Constitution, all presume the Supreme Being or God, either explicitly as Creator, or inferred by requiring Oaths. The majority can use these as legal common basis for appealing to the Creator, without requiring that belief of everyone. Bible: For those willing to accept the Bible and its historicity, that can be used to declare the Creator. Each is effective in certain situations. Use all tools available. For example: Psalm 19:1-4 NIV 1 The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands. 2 Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they display knowledge. 3 There is no speech or language where their voice is not heard. [a] 4 Their voice [b] goes out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world. These demonstrates multiple levels of application: BibleThe Psalmist explicitly declares God's glory as recorded in the Bible. Founders of Modern Science Almost all founders of modern science attributed creation to the Creator. e.g., Newton attributed planetary motion and the law of motion and gravity to the Creator. AstronomyMany astronomers are awestruck at wonders of creation they see. The Big Bang points to an origin, and thus logically to a Creator. Constellations:The names of the constellations, decans, and stars, and the stories associated with them describe the life and mission of Christ. e.g., See: Banks, William D.; The Heavens Declare ... Impact Books 137 W. Jefferson, Kirkwood MO 63122, 1985 Bullinger, Ethelbert W.; The Witness of the Stars, Kregel Publications, Grand Rapids Michigan 49501 USA 1893, republished 1967 ISBN 0-8254-2209-4 Seiss, Joseph; The Gospel in the Stars, Kregel Publications, Grand Rapids Michigan USA 1882 republished 1972 ISBN 0-8245-3755-5 Linguistics The Chinese language preserves heiroglyphics depicting events from Genesis 1-11 that may persuade some. See: Kang, C.H. & Nelson, Ethel R. The Discovery of Genesis. Concordia Publishing House, St. Louis MO USA 1979, ISBN: 0-570-03792-1 Nelson, Ethel R., Broadberry, Richard E., & Chock, Ginger Tong God’s Promise to the Chinese Read Books Pub. HCR 65 Box 580, Dunlap TN 37327 USA; 1997 ISBN 0-937869-01-5 Effective Unity Remember: “How good and pleasant it is when brothers live together in unity!” Psalm 133:1 Effectiveness comes by working together, including working in parallel, not from fighting each other. As we are given free will, so let us not try to coerce others. e.g., neither require the Bible must be used, nor forbid the Bible be used. Intelligent Design is an attempt to read the “book of nature” directly from an objective scientific perspective. That parallels reading the “book of revelation” – the Bible. See: Romans 1:19-20 “since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.” Intelligent Design Assumptions: Thus, ID makes assumptions that allow for identifying intelligent causation, including recent intelligent design, and/or an Intelligent Designer. These are designed to work for current, historic or origins theories. Some capabilities of the intelligent designer can be inferred from the evidence. ID assumptions do not appeal to the Bible, nor do they reject it - they parallel it. See: ISCID.org Brainstorm 19 Dec 2005: Reverse Engineering Assumptions for an Open Science Intelligent Design TheoryDLH
August 12, 2006
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Great post Sal. Here is my two cents. Paul said that he tried to be all things to all men that by some means he might save a few. In my experience some YEC’s say, pace Paul, “I will be one thing to all men, and if they don’t like that one thing they can be damned.” As has already been mentioned, Paul was one thing to the philosophers on Mars Hill, where he quoted pagan poets and not the Bible. He was something else when he debated his fellow Jewish doctors of the law, where he could thump the Bible better than any of them. Paul wrote, “follow me as I follow God,” i. e. follow my example. Why some YEC’s refuse to follow his example in the origins controversy is a matter that has always puzzled me. Though, having known quite a few fundamentalists over the years, I have a theory. I think it is part and parcel of their “my way or the highway” attitude. I keep trying to get them to read Romans 14 where Paul says, except with respect to the core beliefs of the faith, Christians have remarkable freedom. It saddens me that they just don’t get it. When I teach ID to my students I always say “leave the Bible out of it.” The debate you are in is about the general revelation. We can talk about the specific revelation later. If the debate turns on whether the earth is only 6,000 years old, you lose. Period. Setting the terms of the debate is almost as important as the debate itself. Ken Ham angers me when he implies that if you don’t share his interpretation of Genesis 1 you can’t be a Christian. I will take Paul’s word over Ken's. Paul says that if I confess with my mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in my heart that God has raised him from the dead, I shall be saved. Paul does NOT say if I confess with my mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in my heart that God has raised him from the dead AND hold a particular hermeneutic that leads to a particular interpretation of the first chapter of Genesis I shall be saved. No, Ken is wrong. I did not reason forward from the truth of Genesis to the deity of Christ. I reasoned backwards from the empty tomb to the deity of Christ, and since Christ, who is God, says Genesis chapter 1 is true, I believe it is true, but I am not dogmatic about what it means. After many years of thought on the subject, I have come to a place where I am perfectly comfortable saying, “One thing I know for sure. His tomb is empty, and everything else hangs on that one thing. Other things I do not know for sure, and that’s OK.” Finally, I see the origins debate as a form of apologetics. Again, when I teach apologetics I tell my students that they will never save anyone through apologetics. You can’t argue someone into the kingdom. What you can do is remove barriers to belief. You are preparing the ground. You are not planting, for less reaping. The main problem with Darwinism from a theological perspective is its implications -- there is no need for God; nature can do it all. From this follows ,“If there is no need for God, maybe there is no God.” The theory says nothing about God but it certainly has theological implications. ID also says nothing about God. But it says the only known cause of specific complex information and irreducibly complex structures is design. It too has implications. There was a designer. We don’t know who the designer was, but maybe it was God.BarryA
August 12, 2006
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Dr. D. James Kennedy (director of Coral Ridge Ministries) is a creationist who is a great ally of intelligent design. Best of luck to all the IDers going on the show!SChen24
August 12, 2006
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Sal, thanks for your detailed description but in my opinion things are much simpler: ID is actually a common scientific tool for everyone does not buy strict naturalism anf its explication for the real world. In this sense, as ID explicitly (and effectively) poses itself only on a strict scientific basis, so much different religious positions such as YEC, OEC, evolutionary theists (etc etc) can 8and MUST) legitimately use and cite ID. For example John Sanford in its last book does explicitly refer to Intelligent design although its declared metaphisical position is YEC. NDE supporter have perfectly understood how this is extremely dangerous for metaphisical naturalism. Kairoskairos
August 12, 2006
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Also, just to point out, many in the evolution side think that Creationists are that way because their parents brought them up that way or their Church believes that way. In my own case my parents (both faithful Christians) are at least slightly dismayed at my engaging in this conversation, and my denomination has by far more theistic evolutionists than Creationists. In fact, in the seminary I'm attending starting this fall, they even have a course where they talk about the relationship of science and theology, and only talk about evolution (the closest book to ID in the class is "Finding Darwin's God").johnnyb
August 12, 2006
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Thx for the reply Salvador :) I still say that using electricity, water and by the same token ID if not for the God's glory is not a worthy secular pursuit. If you don't give joy to even drinking orange juice you are dishonoring God - "wheter you eat or drink or whatever you do it all for the glory of God" 1 Corin 10:31. [I agree w/ Mats' reply] At the same time however, I agree that YECers should warm up to ID and not be so hostile against it. -Johnjpark320
August 12, 2006
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I've blogged on my own site about some of these issues, so I thought I'd share some links and some additional thoughts. First of all, I've had my own trouble joining some YEC organizations because apparently I'm not fundamentalist enough :) Some of the exclusionary policies of YEC organizations have turned off a number of YEC researchers. Some of these find a home in the ID community, others are a part of the YEC community anyway despite the flack they get. Anyway, I wrote about the relationship between ID and Creationism on my own blog. Basically, kind of like Sal pointed out, YEC can use ID the same way that YEC can use physics. However, I disagree with Sal about the Bible. As a Christian, I submit myself to scripture. Now, contrary to a few in the YEC community, I feel perfectly fine with distinguishing to others when I believe something on evidence and when I believe something on faith. In fact, I encourage people not familiar with science to not use scientific reasoning when defending their beliefs -- if you believe X because you trust the Bible, that is a much stronger argument than some pseudoscientific reasoning. No one will ever be able to deny your trust in the Bible (well, that is, if your life shows it), but if you use some ill-formed scientific logic, that can be easily refuted, and hurt someone else's faith rather than help it. Even further, I think that the Bible is a perfectly acceptable source for historical evidence for Christians practicing science. In fact, I would encourage Christians whose research intersects with Biblical history to unabashedly and publicly use scripture in their evaluations. The fact is that as Christians we need to be open, honest, and upfront about where our ideas come from, and what we think are the most important reasons for thinking them. We should not be shy or ashamed just because it means we might "lose" or that other people might not listen. Having said that, it's interesting that ID is essentially ahistorical. Therefore, for the most part, I agree with Sal in that using the Bible for ID is not necessary (at least directly) any more than you would use the Bible for mathematics. As an interesting side-note, it seems that using the Bible as a historical source seems to be absolutely fine in secular science for non-Genesis texts, indicating again that the real issue is that Creationism conflicts with the materialist creation story, not that using the Bible as a guide to history in science has any fundamental flaws in and of itself.johnnyb
August 12, 2006
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Hey Sal. I would like to make a few comments, me being a YEC:
Personally, 6 years ago, I was turned off by heavy-handed tactics by AiG and similar organizations who demanded blind acceptance of their origins theology and labeled anyone who disagreed with or doubted them as either compromisers or agents of the devil.
I don't know what do to you mean by "blind acceptance", but from what I have seen in AIG, their position is that the evidence is much easier explained in the Creationist framework rather than in the Darwinian one. No one in there advocates blind acceptance of anything. Secondly, yes, from the Creationist point of view, those who do not believe in what God said in Genesis 1-11 are willingly or unwillingly (to use your words) agents of the devil, and/or compromisers. This is not character assassination, but the position one would logically take, IF we believe that everything that goes against Revealed Authority is evil.
When they lumped James Dobson along with the “compromisers” I decided I had my fill of the prevailing YEC culture, and rather found my home in ID’s big tent.
Well, of Dr Dobson doesn't take Genesis as written, what's wrong in saying that he has compromised?
YEC edicts demanding unquestioned belief conveyed desperation, rather than confidence in brute empirical facts.
That is not true. Organizations like AIG, ICR or CMI give PLENTY of empirical facts that fit more nicely within the Genesis Creation account than with Darwinian philosophy. I don't know which "creationist" sites have you been into, but your statement is very far from the truth.
Thus I found the writings of Denton, Jastrow, Berlinski, Tipler, Barrow more compelling than Ken Ham or Henry Morris.
Denton, Jastrow, Berlinski tell you half the story (and do good science). Ken Ham, and the late Dr Morris not only do good science, but they tell you what ID cannot say: 1) Who is the Designer (The Lord Jesus Christ) 2)WHY HE designed 3)When He designed 4) How He designed, etc, etc. This is not a either ID or YEC position. ONe can be simpathetic to both (like me).
Interestingly in the secular colleges, I’ll ask of even the most conservative Evangelical creationists , “Assuming all things equal, with respect to science, who’s word would carry more weight with you, someone like Michael Denton or a Bible-believer like Ken Ham?” Almost invariably, they’ll answer Michael Denton!
So what?
This again, reinforces the fact, theology-free science is more persuasive at defeating Darwinism than theology-filled edicts (see: Howard Van Till’s journey from Calvinism into freethought to see the effect of theology-filled edicts.)
It depends on what are your goals. If your goals are to ONLY show scientifically that Darwinism is wrong, you act one way. However, Creationists are not set up to show that Darwinism is wrong, BUT to lay down the Biblical foundation, starting from Genesis. Secondly, in the Darwinian mind (and I guess everyone would agree) there is no "theology-free" science. All interpretation of the evidence is based on your starting axioms. If you believe that Nature did its own creating, you will consider the evidence one way. If you start by assuming that there is a Designer, you will view the evidence diferently. I think this is one of the points Dr Phil Johnson makes in his lectures.
For me personally, the challenge has been persuading people of the Evangelical faith that the science-alone approach of ID does not disrespect their practice of faith. This is challenging in light of Phil Johnson’s admonition to all IDers: the first thing that has to be done is to get the Bible out of the discussion
Notice that this admonition was to all *IDers*, not to Christians. Since the ID movement is filled with non-Christians, Phil's advice makes sence. Secondly, as a Christian, we are to get our ONLY Weapon against deception "out of discussion"?
Contrast this to creationist Ken Ham’s (AiG) approach: Don’t let Bible be let out of the conversation Argue from the authority of the Bible Don’t let young age of the Earth be conceded as that’s how you’ll lose the argument The problem is world views
Amen to that. Consider this, Sal: what is the ONe thing that will instantly show that Darwinism is wrong? Lack of time! If there is no time, then you don't come from slime. It's tragic for me to see Christians all over the landscape trying to defeat Darwinism with molecular biology, fossil record, genetics, but leaving "untouched" the one thing that would dismantle their card castle instantly, meaningly, time. If enough evidence could be gathered that showed that the universe is not "billions of yeasr old", but a few thousands, it doesn't matter how much "evidence" Darwinists would gather, since there wouldn't be enough time for evolution to occur. So while people are fighting Darwinism at the TOP, they are leaving the foundation (millions of years) untouched. For sure you'll say "But Mats, "Science" has shown that the universe is trillions years old!" Yeah, I have heard that before. But is it really? Consider some empirical evidence (the ones you say Creationists don't have) in favor of a young earth: http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v21/i1/seas.asp - by Dr Jonathan Safarti, Ph.D http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/4005.asp - by Dr. Russell Humphreys, Ph.D
But to people of faith, I argue Ken Ham’s approach to the exclusion of all other approaches is wrong,
Why would a Creationist include aproaches that he believes are wrong? That's like asking to ID scientists to include in the big tent people who say that there is no evidence of inteligent design in biology. Would they? Of course not, and logically right in doing so. Similarly, why would a Creationist endorse views that clash directly or indirectly with the Genesis account of creation?
Thus in matters of origins science, to honor my faith, to honor the promise that Nature will testify of design independent of theology, I side with Phil Johnson, and affirm that in many cases (not all), the right thing to do in God’s eyes is to: get the Bible out of the discussion
There is no verse in the Bible that says what the right thing to do in ANY matter is to leave the Bible out. That's problematic since how do you answer to the question of deformities, without apeal to the Genesis account? Notice that I am not sayign that ID should start making apeals to Genesis. What I am saying is that you can't blame Creationists for being consistent with their Religious Writtings. Either you think that is effective or not, that's another point.
Some Evangelicals reading this may have issues with what I said. I point out I’m not alone in my position: The pressure to justify art, science, and entertainment in terms of their spiritual value or evangelistic usefulness ends up damaging both the gift of creation and the gift of the Gospel. Michael S. Horton, Westminster Theological Seminary Where in the World Is the Church?
Not being alone in a wrong view, doesn't make that view right, as you will agree. Darwinists are "not alone in their view", but that doesn't make Darwinism right.
Furthermore, ID does not claim to be infallible nor does it make any theological statement beyond the reasonableness of the scientific method.
ID is being consistent with its intended goal, just like Creationists are being consistent in their intended goal. I like ID bkz it's good science. I like YEC bkz it's good science AND good theology. Like I said previously, this is not a "either ID or YEC".
By doing so up front, I can reassure them that there will be times it will be more honoring to their Christian faith to take the Bible out of the discussion than to leave it in.
But if we "leave the Bible out of it", we are going against our faith, SPECIALLY when it comes to Creation. We can't leave the Bible "out of it" no more than a soldier can leave his armor, sword and breast protection out, before engaging in a combat. Origins is a very sensitive area, and an area where there can't be no compromise whatsoever. You can't possibly ask us Creationists to leave outside the Only Reliable Source of Information regarding that distant past, right?
And thus it is my hope by appealing to the beliefs they hold dear, that they will argue the case for origins in the secular world using purely scientific arguments.
Like they have been doing for decades BEFORE ID became what it is today. Creationists have been using scientific evidence in favor of the Genesis account for a long time. As a final note, I hope you don't take my comments as some sort of attack on ID for not apealing to Genesis. I think that, as a scientific theory, ID is strong and will eventualy defeat Darwinism. The apeal it has for us Creationits is that it is closer to the Truth, and we welcome scientific sanity. However, we don't agree with the "mear creation" position in "leaving the Bible out of it". Secondly, let's not forget why Creationists don't leave the Bible out of it. The purpose of a Christian is not to win scientifc arguements, but to bring people to a saving knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ. What's the point in giving massive evidence for Creation, and NOT tell them Who is the Creator, why He created, why there is death and other thigns we can see in nature? You may not agree with the Creationist position, but you have to see what is our final goal.Mats
August 12, 2006
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Rick, Thank you for your thoughts and kind words. (To the readers at UD, I will address my discussion to Evangelical readers. The remainder of this post is really outside ID proper, but for the sake of the Evangelicals and creationists who are curious about ID, I wish to give ID's context in the scheme of their beliefs. So I beg your consideration.)
Rick asked: John 10:38–not sure what this has to do with whether one should allow the Bible in discussions of origins. Typo, or am I just missing the point?
The part of the passage in the NASB reads "though you do not believe Me, believe the works". There is an interesting theology here. Christ acknowleges that someone may not have the Christian worldview. He says so by saying, "though you do not believe Me" (which means, though you're not a Christian!). He then gives a remedy for not having the Christian worldview "believe the works". I point this out to show that Ham has it backward. There are people coming to the table who may not have the worldview Ham is insisting one must have to see the works of God. The scriptures teach otherwise. One may not have the correct worldview to begin with, but one will have the capacity to "believe the works". This tells me, worldview is secondary to brute empircal facts. Paul on the road to Damascus did not have the right world view, but brute facts changed his mind, if you know what I mean... Moving on, I've mingled with the James Madison Freethinkers for the last 3 years. One of them became a Christian, and you would be surprised what reading material I actually recommended which led to her conversion. I recommended: 1. God and the Astronomers by the agnostic Robert Jastrow 2. Evolution a Theory in Crisis by agnostic and former creationist Michael Denton Within six week, she read Jastrow's books and met some Christians in class, and of her own free will, against the wishes of her family, became a Christian. She has since been very faithful to her new found beliefs. In 1 Peter 3:1 how an individaul can be won "without a word". Thus, there are appropriate ways the faith is witnessed by: 1. teaching of the scriptures 2. conduct in secular affairs 3. silence 4. any number of other ways As Solomon said, there is a time for everything under the sun. To insist that one and only one formula is the only way I think is mistaken. I think Ham's approach is too insistent on a single formula and goes beyond what the Scriptures actually teach, and ends up becoming dogma. Think what might have happened to the person above if I used Ham's approach. Its the very approach that would have driven a free-thinker like the person in question from the Christian faith. Rather than any coercion or prodding, the young lady of her own free-will chose to read the Scriptures and accept the faith after I presented theology-free science to her. I would not have it any other way... What has deeply concerned me is that the attitude by the die-hard YECs is starting a minor civil war in my own denomination, and I do not want the theology-free science of ID to suffer victim to sectarian dogma. To do so would cause the church to destroy the very thing that can help defend her and her children from materialist philosophy. Thank you for reading. Salvadorscordova
August 12, 2006
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Sal, I'm glad to see you speak your mind. It makes it easier to see what you mean without any equivocation. And from this I think you have somewhat mischaraterised Ken Ham and AIG's stance perhaps. Their stance is not that you can not know there is God (the intelligent designer in yours and my perspectives) without the Bible. They do not deny Romans 1:20 - they in fact emphaize it [ex. http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v23/i3/kids.asp] I think the stance that needs to be distinguished is this: There is general revelation, such as God and His attributes. And general revelation can be seen from creation. Then there is special revelation whcih can not be gleened from nature. Where can you get from creation that Jesus Christ came and died for the sins of the world? You can't - that's why we have the Bible - it's special revelation. Anyway, I believe that the age of the earth is a special revelation matter. We couldn't possibly know the age of the earth without the Bible. Lay out all the data and evidence, and the best we can say is that we can't conclude that it's old or young. There is evidence for both, even though I'd argue it favours young. Yet, even with the preponderance of data suggesting young, how can we be sure? It's not the same as finding a watch and saying it came about by an intelligent cause. Anyway, I may have missed something out of this. So, I apologize if I'm the one that actually ended up mischaracterising your points in the above.JGuy
August 12, 2006
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Salvador, I'm pretty much a daily visitor to Uncommon Descent, and I appreciate much of the comment I read. I have lots of respect for what Dr. Dembski and other ID leaders are doing. I also have respect for what creationist ministries such as AIG and ICR do--though I'm afraid I've perceived representatives of the former as rather abrasive at times. Nevertheless, since these are explicitly Christian ministries, I have great respect for the logic and consistency of their YEC stance. It certainly goes against mainstream science--but then, well, so does ID. You quoted Ken Ham's statement, "Don’t let young age of the Earth be conceded as that’s how you’ll lose the argument." I suppose it depends on what you're trying to do. If all you're after is getting someone to accept the evidence for design, then I don't see how the age of the earth is relevant. If you're trying to get someone to accept the message of the Bible, then I think Ham has a point. I also agree with Phil Johnson's advice to remove the Bible from the discussion of ID. After all, ID isn't about the Bible; it's about the recognition of design in the world. The Bible is no more necessary for this than is a knowledge of the history of Mount Rushmore required to recognize that someone--an intelligent agent--carved those faces. Apologies, I suppose, for reiterating the obvious. On the texts you cited: Romans 1:20--yes, certainly--and if modern science were a dispassionate search for truth, I think no one would question that there's a an intelligent designer out there. Possibly, too, this designer would be recognized as eternal God. Of course, this recognition in itself wouldn't lead people to answers to life's questions or to Jesus Christ. But then, that's not a job for science anyway--it's the job of the Bible. Acts 17--yes, Paul's talk on Mars Hill. No use of Scripture, since it wouldn't have meant much to the audience anyway. Often contrasted in this regard with Peter's sermon in Jerusalem at Pentecost. Paul's approach was "culturally relevant"; however, even though he made no appeal to the Scriptures, he certainly attempted to get at the gospel, telling his listeners of the future judgment and of the resurrection of God's Chosen One from the dead. True, he apparently lost most of his audience at this point; however, a few did stick around to hear more. Interestingly, this appears to illustrate that it's not the Scriptures per se that turn people off; it's the message itself that many find unpalatable. John 10:38--not sure what this has to do with whether one should allow the Bible in discussions of origins. Typo, or am I just missing the point? Will be interested in seeing the Coral Ridge show. Keep up the good work! Rickintp147
August 12, 2006
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jpark320 asked: "Could you clarify what you mean by “leave the Bible out of the conversation”?
Exactly that, when one is trying to carry on a scientific discussion be it genetics, chemistry, mathematics, physics, information science, or intelligent design. There is nothing wrong with mentioning a personal belief, but it should be delineated from a scientific opinion. When a mathematical derivation is made, is it made any more or less true by mingling it with scripture?
jpark320 wrote: All those verses, I take, you are using to say that we can use our God given mind to figure out He is there w/o opening the Bible
Scriptures promise Nature and His works would speak of Him. Whether human minds are capable or willing to see it is another story.
Your church is even using ID in an “evangelical context,” I would consider this “Bibie in” and not “theologically free.”
Our church also uses electricity and water to help further the work of Christ. It does not make electricity and water "Bible in".
I think it is unfair to apply those verses to ID if you are not using ID to win ppl to Christ.
The New Testament makes secular pursuits honorable in God's eyes. Therefore even in that way, being an ID thinker is as honorable as being a mathematician or chemist. The irony is that this purely secular pursuit has the opportunity to defeat the philosophies that oppose the church. But for it to really succeed it must have the chance to be free-from theology. That means, if an IDer, like Frank Tipler says something a creationist doesn't like, fine, it's not rejected outright by theological fiat. Furthermore, I would not consider it wrong for Christians to read and seriously study Darwin's writings or that of any other evolutionist.
The pressure to justify art, science, and entertainment in terms of their spiritual value or evangelistic usefulness ends up damaging both the gift of creation and the gift of the Gospel. Michael S. Horton, Westminster Theological Seminary Where in the World Is the Church?
scordova
August 11, 2006
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Could you clarify what you mean by "leave the Bible out of the conversation"? All those verses, I take, you are using to say that we can use our God given mind to figure out He is there w/o opening the Bible, but as opposed to ID, those verses are to point specifially to the Christian Triune God not some "designer." Your church is even using ID in an "evangelical context," I would consider this "Bibie in" and not "theologically free." I think it is unfair to apply those verses to ID if you are not using ID to win ppl to Christ.jpark320
August 11, 2006
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