Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Crocker, Sisson, Cordova, Chenette: TV special on ID in Higher Education

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

Caroline Crocker

Feature: The Intelligent Design Controversy in Higher Education
This week on The Coral Ridge Hour we look at Intelligent Design, a movement which is gaining adherents at colleges and universities around the world. But what about professors who dare to challenge evolution by presenting alternatives to students? As you are about to see, the consequences can be severe.

The main focus will be the case of Caroline Crocker, a former professor of biology at George Mason University. Six years ago, in the course of her research, she came to see that Darwinian evolution was scientifically indefensible and untrue. This TV report details the ordeal she endured for the cause of scientific truth in the face of those seeking to suppress it. Edward Sisson, her attorney, will also be featured along with the GMU IDEA club president Christine Chenette and myself (the co-founder of the club). (This is the same band of rebels who were featured in a cover story by the prestigious scientific journal Nature last year.)

The news report will be featured as part of the Coral Ridge Hour, but before I offer any more details, I need to state an important disclaimer: The views of the Coral Ridge organization do no necessarily reflect my views nor the views of other authors at Uncommon Descent.

That said, go to www.coralridgehour.org to get local listings of the shows. The broadcast will also be available on the internet after Sunday. So don’t worry guys if you miss it on TV. The show will last an hour. The news report will air somewhere in between parts of a religious service, but I don’t know where. However, the internet version will carry only the news report, so you all may just decide to watch that.

In addition to Caroline Crocker’s case, this story will touch on the plight of pro-ID students in our nation’s universities. The number of ID friendly students is hard to estimate, but the best numbers I have indicate the biology curriculums have between 10%-33% pro-IDers at the freshman level. No one really knows at this time how many of those will matriculate to graduation. Furthermore, these polls were conducted with varying degrees of rigor and scope. I’ve seen estimates as high as 40% of students accepting special creation, and maybe as many as 75% are at least curious about the topics of ID and special creation. There may indeed be a revolution in the making, and only time will tell, but I’m cautiously optimistic. One can only imagine the effect on scientific culture if legions of Michael Behe’s, Paul Nelson’s, Jon Wells’, Bill Dembski’s, Phil Johnson’s start graduating from our nation’s schools in the next 20 years. You get the picture. :=)

But the aspect I focus on in this essay is not the TV special, but what the TV special signifies with Coral Ridge choosing to air the story, namely, the fact Evangelicals and creationists are warming to ID. Coral Ridge and the Presbyterian Church of America (PCA) are among the first organizations that I’m aware of to have given a degree of endorsement to ID, and this broadcast is important in elevating ID’s reputation among the Evangelicals.

At Uncommon Descent we have celebrated the recent friendliness the Catholic Church has extended toward ID. What is less appreciated is that various Protestant denominations and creationists are beginning to warm to ID. This is good news for ID, because contrary to what critics of ID would have you think, there have been significant rifts between creationists and IDers. But equally important is the fact that creationists are beginning to understand that creationism is theologically premised, but ID is not.

There are many nuances to the relationship between creationists and IDers, and these nuances are not easily described. In brief, the IDers have been welcoming, but the creationists have not always reciprocated. Here was the state of affair six years ago from an IDer’s perspective:

Intelligent Design Coming Clean, November 11, 2000 by Bill Dembski

Theists of all stripes are to be sure welcome. But the boundaries of intelligent design are not limited to theism. I personally have found an enthusiastic reception for my ideas not only among traditional theists like Jews, Christians, and Muslims, but also among pantheists, New-Agers, and agnostics who don’t hold their agnosticism dogmatically. Indeed, proponents of intelligent design are willing to sit across the table from anyone willing to have us.

That willingness, however, means that some of the people at the table with us will also be young earth creationists. Throughout my brief tenure as director of Baylor’s Michael Polanyi Center, adversaries as well as supporters of my work constantly pointed to my unsavory associates. I was treated like a political figure who is unwilling to renounce ties to organized crime. It was often put to me: “Dembski, you’ve done some respectable work, but look at the disreputable company you keep.” Repeatedly I’ve been asked to distance myself not only from the obstreperous likes of Phillip Johnson but especially from the even more scandalous young earth creationists.

I’m prepared to do neither. That said, let me stress that loyalty and friendship are not principally what’s keeping me from dumping my unsavory associates. Actually, I rather like having unsavory associates

In contrast to IDers like Bill rolling out the red carpet, there has been a disappointing lack of reciprocity from the creationists, and occasional hostility. This was epitomized by an irritating YEC promotional campaign against ID: Intelligent design: is it intelligent; is it Christian? by Answers in Genesis (AiG).

But thankfully, there are some creationist and Evangelical organizations who have warmed to ID and understand that ID is not a theological body of ideas, but rather a theology-free science. This upcoming TV show symbolizes growing acceptance of ID’s theology-free origins science in its proper context within Evangelical and creationist circles. This is no small development, because IDers would do well to tap into a large base of potential interest (110 million Americans who accept special creation of humans) rather than trying to persuade individuals who have paid their mortgages and gained respect in society by promoting naturalistic evolution. (And if anyone criticizes me for making an ID sales pitch to religious organizations, I’ll counter by pointing to the NCSE’s Faith Project Director.)

What may be ironic is that the theology-free character of ID is what actually makes it very appealing to people of faith who may be sitting on the fence on various issues. Personally, 6 years ago, I was turned off by heavy-handed tactics by AiG and similar organizations who demanded blind acceptance of their origins theology and labeled anyone who disagreed with or doubted them as either compromisers or agents of the devil. When they lumped James Dobson along with the “compromisers” I decided I had my fill of the prevailing YEC culture, and rather found my home in ID’s big tent. YEC edicts demanding unquestioned belief conveyed desperation, rather than confidence in brute empirical facts. Thus I found the writings of Denton, Jastrow, Berlinski, Tipler, Barrow more compelling than Ken Ham or Henry Morris.

Interestingly in the secular colleges, I’ll ask of even the most conservative Evangelical creationists , “Assuming all things equal, with respect to science, who’s word would carry more weight with you, someone like Michael Denton or a Bible-believer like Ken Ham?” Almost invariably, they’ll answer Michael Denton! This again, reinforces the fact, theology-free science is more persuasive at defeating Darwinism than theology-filled edicts (see: Howard Van Till’s journey from Calvinism into freethought to see the effect of theology-filled edicts.)

For me personally, the challenge has been persuading people of the Evangelical faith that the science-alone approach of ID does not disrespect their practice of faith. This is challenging in light of Phil Johnson’s admonition to all IDers:

the first thing that has to be done is to get the Bible out of the discussion

Contrast this to creationist Ken Ham’s (AiG) approach:

Don’t let Bible be let out of the conversation

Argue from the authority of the Bible

Don’t let young age of the Earth be conceded as that’s how you’ll lose the argument

The problem is world views

But to people of faith, I argue Ken Ham’s approach to the exclusion of all other approaches is wrong, and often dishonoring to the very faith he professes. He is contradicted by Romans 1:20, Acts 17:16-32, John 10:38. Thus in matters of origins science, to honor my faith, to honor the promise that Nature will testify of design independent of theology, I side with Phil Johnson, and affirm that in many cases (not all), the right thing to do in God’s eyes is to:

get the Bible out of the discussion

Some Evangelicals reading this may have issues with what I said. I point out I’m not alone in my position:

The pressure to justify art, science, and entertainment in terms of their spiritual value or evangelistic usefulness ends up damaging both the gift of creation and the gift of the Gospel.

Michael S. Horton, Westminster Theological Seminary
Where in the World Is the Church?

Furthermore, ID does not claim to be infallible nor does it make any theological statement beyond the reasonableness of the scientific method. There is no reason therefore any Evangelical should consider ID contrary to their theology since ID makes no theological claims, and does not assert infallibility. It is no more theologically premised than chemistry, math, physics, and information science. However, I should point out that science with no theological premise does not mean a science with no theological implications. How can that be?

Consider the Laws of Thermodynamics. These laws are as theology-free as one can ask for. These laws strongly suggests stars cannot possibly burn forever, but if so, then that means the stars and all the universe must not have been around forever. This fact, combined with various astrophysical observations (like red shifts), forced scientists to reluctantly conclude the universe had a beginning. But a universe with a beginning has very strong theological implications even though the science leading to those implications was theology-free (see: God and the Astronomers by Robert Jastrow). And then more recently, Belinfante, Barrow, Tipler and others point out that Quantum Mechanics may necessitate a Universal Intelligence at the root of reality (see: Peer Reviewed Stealth ID Classic). In like manner, ID and its surrounding theories are theology-free, but they have theological implications.

With that in mind, I hope the readers will excuse me for trying to reach out to my fellow Evangelicals and creationists reading this weblog by quoting from the scriptures which they reverence. By doing so up front, I can reassure them that there will be times it will be more honoring to their Christian faith to take the Bible out of the discussion than to leave it in. And thus it is my hope by appealing to the beliefs they hold dear, that they will argue the case for origins in the secular world using purely scientific arguments.

50% of the US believes in special creation and another 25% might be sympathetic to some form of ID. It is within this 75% of the nation’s populace that the theoretical underpinnings of ID have the best chance of being heard, received, and researched. This 75% figure carries over to the young, who will be the scientists of tomorrow. It is this demographic group which I think we should seek to reach and encourage more than the 25% who have a financial, social, and personal interests in maintaining the status quo.

It is to that audience, that I have principally made my appeal with this essay. And I encourage this audience to support the diversity of views under ID’s big tent, and to find ways to respectfully cooperate with others who hold different personal beliefs. When an atmosphere is fostered where creationists can be welcoming and supportive of people like Michael Denton, Frank Tipler, John Barrow, David Berlinski, John Angus Campbell, John Davison, Jeffrey Schwartz, Charles Townes, and more people than I can possibly list — then a more effective path will be open for exploration of our origins.

Salvador Cordova
Salvador Cordova
PS
The battles between the die-hard YECers and IDers are there. For example, here is a tiff within my own denomination regarding YECers, IDers and holders of other views. I’m part of the Potomac Presbytery which in the following letter is seen rebuking the Westminster Presbytery: An Open Letter to Our Brother Elders of Westminster Presbytery. Also, from the Mere Creation website, here is a very good look theological issues regarding ID: Report of the Creation Study Committee (Presbyterian Church in America). Their recommendations are welcome news for ID:

Thus, the church must be prepared to address the claimed “scientific truths” of the science communities and be prepared to “manage by fact” as the data from the science pours forth. The present day intelligent design movement would appear to be a good example of how the church in the broader evangelical context can be effective in this manner.

Comments
tribune7 Thanks for making my point better and more simply than I did. I never meant to say “always” leave the Bible out of it, as Matts seems to believe. But the Bible itself says for everything there is a season and a time for every purpose under heaven. There is a time to speak [including a time to speak about the Bible], and a time to remain silent [including a time to remain silent about the Bible]. I know I said I had said my last to Matts, but I have one last question for him. If the specific revelation is the only reliable source of information about creation, why does God say he will hold men accountable solely on the basis of general revelation in Romans 1? Is God unjustly holding men accountable for rejecting unreliable information?BarryA
August 13, 2006
August
08
Aug
13
13
2006
07:38 AM
7
07
38
AM
PDT
Mats asked: YECers should stop saying that OEC are compromising with the millions of years,
I said compromising is an inappropriate word to describe these people. Let me for the sake of argument assume that YEC is true (it could be after all), it would still be inappropriate to label someone who is unintentionally mistaken as a compromiser. It would be like asking some one a question, and if they give a mistaken answer to the best of their knowledge, calling them a willful liar. Furthermore, such nasty talk to others is exactly the thing that will harden their hearts, because their character rather than their ideas is being falsely accused. They will have less reason to receive what you have to say, and more reasons to hope you are wrong if for no other reason than the fact you have offended them. Such an attitude is in violation of 1 Pet 3:15. Thus, I must politely ask you to refrain from further making that accusation here at Uncommon Descent. You may state you're disagreement, you may express that you think others are mistaken, but I'm afraid swipes like this (justifying why people should be labeled compromisers) at other members character in a discussion forum would be counter productive.scordova
August 13, 2006
August
08
Aug
13
13
2006
05:46 AM
5
05
46
AM
PDT
What I disagreed with BArryA and Sal is that, as a Christian, they advised that we should “leave the Bible out of it” when discussing origins. That’s suicide. Mats, I think it depends upon the arena in which the debate is occurring. If it's a courtroom or biology department and you are claiming that your view has equal merit with the prevailing paradigm and does not require Revealed Authority, then you mustn't appeal to Revealed Authority to make it. I think God has shown us a way to do this via complex specified information and irreducible complexity meaning that under the very rules written by the Dawinists we can show that Darwinism is wrong.tribune7
August 13, 2006
August
08
Aug
13
13
2006
05:00 AM
5
05
00
AM
PDT
Hey Sal.
There are OECs and YEC-IDers and people of other faiths bearing the brunt of these developments at secular campuses. That is why, I’m a bit disappointed that certain YEC communities (like AiG) so casually label others as compromisers, when it is many of these “compromisers” who are actully putting their reputations, careers, and diplomas at risk on secular campuses as they assail the strongholds of materialist philosophy.
This is a non-sequitur, Sal, and I am sure you clearly see it. What you are saying is that YECers should stop saying that OEC are compromising with the millions of years, BECAUSE many of the old earthers are fighting against materialism? So what?!
Furthermore, ID organization only have a world-wide combined annual budget of probably not more than 2 million a year (DI-CSC, ARN, IDnetwork, IDEA, IDURC, others).
And which religious segment is mostly active in rightly suporting the good science if ID ? Muslims? Jews? HIndu? Of course, I don't have the exact numbers, but I am very much convinced that the among the people who suport give what they can for ID research, are MANY YECers. I may be wrong, but this is what I believe.
That’s nothing! YEC organizations by contrast command possibly 10 times that much in addition to the fact they can fully exploit the friendship of the churches, whereas doors to ID are often shut.
Sal, when you use words like "exploit" you are assuming that YEC organizations are taking money from them in some deceitful manner. Another thing worth noticing is that ID found a people already prepared against Darwinism. IN other words, the American people, thanks for the many Creationist organizations scatered in the USA, had already been very skeptical against Evolutionism. When ID came, they already found people with an attentive ear for any claims against Darwinism. It's not like all of the sudden people became anti-Darwinian. No. The USA, I repeat, thanks for the work of organizations like ICR, AIG and CSE, were already very open to ID ideias, and for what I have been seeing, YECers will continue to stand with ID as a legitimate scientific enterprise.Mats
August 13, 2006
August
08
Aug
13
13
2006
01:24 AM
1
01
24
AM
PDT
hey BarryA. My comments on your post:
You said: “When Christians talk about origins we cannot leave the Bible out, since it’s the ONLY Reliable Source for origins information.” I replied: “The Bible itself refutes this statement. Look at Psalm 19 (quoted already above) and Romans 1.” Then you said: “For a Christian, the Bible is the Starting Point and the Final Authority in matters of Creation.” Can you see how you argued one thing in your first post and something else in your second. First you say the Bible is the ONLY (your emphasis) source. Then you say the Bible is the “Starting Point.” The Bible is the only *RELIABLE* source of information when it comes to the question of origins since it is the Word of Him Who was there when the universe was made. We can get other evidence for a Young universe, but ultimatly, the Bible is the Only Reliable Source.
“When does God start telling the truth?” God started telling the truth in Genesis 1:1. Unlike you, I do not claim to have an infallible understanding of what that truth is.
Execpt when it comes to the Deity of Christ, where you are totaly sure of that, right? And why? Well, because the Bible says so, right? Wait! But the Bible also says "for inS ix Days The Lord created the heavens and the earth" (Exodus 20:11), YET you don't believe that, isn't it so? Suit yourself.
You need to go back and listen to the Ken Ham link you sent me. It does not say anything about whether an OEC can be a Christian. It just says an evolutionist cannot be.
Actually, Ken says that if you aer a Christian and an evolutionist, you are not being consistent. Since being an evolutionist requires one to believe in million of years, the same goes for "old earthers". You can be a Christian and believe in million of years, however, you are not being consistent.
Are you saying that ALL of the doctrines of Christianity are the central doctrine of Christianity. You seem to be, and that makes no sense.
The Fall is a central to CHristianity bkz without no Fall, there would be no need for God to become Man. EVen atheists can see this:
'Without Adam, without the original sin, Jesus Christ is reduced to a man with a mission on the wrong planet … . Sin becomes not an ugly fate due to man's disobedience, but only the struggle of instincts … . Christianity has fought, still fights, and will fight science to the desperate end over evolution, because evolution destroys utterly and finally the very reason Jesus' earthly life was supposedly made necessary. Destroy Adam and Eve and the original sin, and in the rubble you will find the sorry remains of the son of god. Take away the meaning of his death. If Jesus was not the redeemer who died for our sins, and this is what evolution means, then Christianity is nothing! Christianity, if it is to survive, must have Adam and the original sin and the fall from grace or it cannot have Jesus the redeemer who restores to those who believe what Adam's disobedience took away.' (Bozarth, G.R., The meaning of evolution, American Atheist 20:30, 1978)
Somewhere between those two poles is a line. On one side of the line are “essentials.” On the other side are “nonessentials.” The line may be fuzzy. I do not deny that, but there surely is a line nevertheless. How should I judge people on the non-essential side of the line. The answer is, who am I to judge another’s servants. To their own master they will stand or fall, and they will stand, because God is able to make them stand.
Aren't you assuming that the account of creation, or the days of creation, are "non-essencial"? If you are, you are begging the question: who said that the days of creation are non-essential? God blessMats
August 13, 2006
August
08
Aug
13
13
2006
01:12 AM
1
01
12
AM
PDT
I would therefore like to encourage Henry Morris and all young-earth creationists to view intelligent design as a friend in the destruction of Darwinian materialism and in developing the scientific understanding of design in nature.
And that is what I do, and many YECers do. In fact, this is so much so that YEC organizations sell ID material joyfully. We don't disagree with the science in ID. What I disagreed with BArryA and Sal is that, as a Christian, they advised that we should "leave the Bible out of it" when discussing origins. That's suicide. For sure, ID, not being a religious doctrine, doesn't have to apeal to Revealed Authority, but since YEC has a diferent ultimate goal than ID (preach Jesus Christ), we cannot, and will not "leave the Bible out of discussion".Mats
August 13, 2006
August
08
Aug
13
13
2006
01:00 AM
1
01
00
AM
PDT
Here is a very good essay by Bill Dembski on YEC and ID: A REPLY TO HENRY MORRIS
intelligent design is not a biblical or religious doctrine. ..... Morris, however, thinks that stressing this partial truth does disservice to the Christian faith. According to him, intelligent design is freeing Christians from having to confront the Genesis record of a young earth and global flood. But if Christians are ignoring Genesis, that's not a problem with intelligent design but with Christians not devoting sufficient care to biblical studies .... no one in the ID movement claims that ID is the Gospel. If you want the Gospel, read the Bible and especially the New Testament. .... ID is engaging the culture in ways that creationism never could. Young earth creationists have tended to operate in well insulated enclaves. True, they have been the butt of much ridicule and attack from the outside, but by having their own schools and publishing houses, they have tended to be well-supported internally. Design theorists, by contrast, have squarely confronted the cultural mainstream (scientific, academic, and media). ID's voice is heard in places where young earth creationism is ignored. But cultural engagement has come with a cost. Because ID advocates are unwilling to push design farther than its logic will go, we receive criticism from young earth creationists (Morris's criticism in his review of my book is mild by comparison with Ken Ham's). At the same time, the scientific and academic establishment has spared no effort to undermine, derail, and in some cases ruin the careers and efforts of ID advocates (my own case at Baylor has been widely publicized; I can provide details of numerous other cases; the fall-out from the article by Stephen Meyer that appeared in the Proceedings of the Biological Society of Washington is the most recent case in point). The Bible warns us to take heed if everyone is speaking well of us. In that case, ID advocates may have even less to worry about than young earth creationists. ... I would therefore like to encourage Henry Morris and all young-earth creationists to view intelligent design as a friend in the destruction of Darwinian materialism and in developing the scientific understanding of design in nature.
Note: Henry Morris passed away this last February. Uncommon Descent paid tribute herescordova
August 12, 2006
August
08
Aug
12
12
2006
10:40 PM
10
10
40
PM
PDT
Here is snapshot of what our embattled IDEA club witnessed last year at GMU, which affected OECs, YEC-IDers and people of all faiths, not just Christians: 1. Caroline Crocker dismissed from the school 2. Professors who didn't come forward in the Nature article fearful of reprisals if they did 3. GMU staff reluctant to be advisors to IDEA for fear of reprisal 4. Pro-ID students subject to humilation by Darwinist professors. Pro-ID biology students shouted at by Darwinist professors. 5. December 1, 2005 the science faculty corral 400 or so GMU students to a talk given by Eugenie Scott "Why Scientists Reject ID". Many of the students were required by their science professors to attend this talk. No disrespect to Eugenie (see : My Correspondence with Eugenie Scott, but GMU (a state school) was spending money to publicly slam ID with no opportunity for rebuttal. This amounted to a public humilation of pro-ID students and pro-ID faculty. There are OECs and YEC-IDers and people of other faiths bearing the brunt of these developments at secular campuses. That is why, I'm a bit disappointed that certain YEC communities (like AiG) so casually label others as compromisers, when it is many of these "compromisers" who are actully putting their reputations, careers, and diplomas at risk on secular campuses as they assail the strongholds of materialist philosophy. Furthermore, ID organization only have a world-wide combined annual budget of probably not more than 2 million a year (DI-CSC, ARN, IDnetwork, IDEA, IDURC, others). That's nothing! YEC organizations by contrast command possibly 10 times that much in addition to the fact they can fully exploit the friendship of the churches, whereas doors to ID are often shut. All that to say, perhaps a little more charity is in order from YECs toward these "compromisers".scordova
August 12, 2006
August
08
Aug
12
12
2006
10:09 PM
10
10
09
PM
PDT
Matts, My last comment on this subject: “If the Word of God is not enough to convince you, then nothing will.” Arrogant statements like this make it hard to have a dialogue. You said: “When Christians talk about origins we cannot leave the Bible out, since it’s the ONLY Reliable Source for origins information.” I replied: “The Bible itself refutes this statement. Look at Psalm 19 (quoted already above) and Romans 1.” Then you said: “For a Christian, the Bible is the Starting Point and the Final Authority in matters of Creation.” Can you see how you argued one thing in your first post and something else in your second. First you say the Bible is the ONLY (your emphasis) source. Then you say the Bible is the “Starting Point.” “When does God start telling the truth?” God started telling the truth in Genesis 1:1. Unlike you, I do not claim to have an infallible understanding of what that truth is. You need to go back and listen to the Ken Ham link you sent me. It does not say anything about whether an OEC can be a Christian. It just says an evolutionist cannot be. Me: “I am a Christian and this [i.e., the deity of Christ] is the central tenant of the Christian faith.” You: “So is the Fall, the literal Garden of Eden, etc., etc., etc.” Are you saying that ALL of the doctrines of Christianity are the central doctrine of Christianity. You seem to be, and that makes no sense. Me: “I am selectively dogmatic. About the essentials of the faith (i.e., dogma), I am dogmatic.” You: “How do you determine what is ‘essential’ ?” Good question. Some churches use grape juice for the Lord’s Supper. Others use wine. Should the juicers say to the winers you have violated a central tenant of the faith, so you are no longer Christians.” (or vice versa). I am sure you will agree they should not. In some churches they say, “Jesus is God, the second person of the Trinity.” In other churches they say, “Jesus was a great prophet, but he was not God.” Should the “Jesus is God” side say to the other “You have rejected a fundamental tenant of the faith as confessed by everyone, at all places in all times for 2,000 years. If you do not repent you will die in your sins.” I am sure you will agree the answer is yes. Somewhere between those two poles is a line. On one side of the line are “essentials.” On the other side are “nonessentials.” The line may be fuzzy. I do not deny that, but there surely is a line nevertheless. How should I judge people on the non-essential side of the line. The answer is, who am I to judge another’s servants. To their own master they will stand or fall, and they will stand, because God is able to make them stand. Best wishes to you. BarryBarryA
August 12, 2006
August
08
Aug
12
12
2006
03:41 PM
3
03
41
PM
PDT
Rick Thanks for the reminder on focusing on being on the same side. per my #13 above, encourage focusing back on what are the issues that matter in building ID to be a "big tent" that clearly detects intelligent causation in recent, historic and origin situations. Then two tasks: 1) Apply the principles to the data, show clear evidence of intelligent causation, 2) Develop a robust theory of Intelligent Design that is much more useful and predictive than "macroevolution" and abiogenesis based on materialistic naturalism.DLH
August 12, 2006
August
08
Aug
12
12
2006
03:26 PM
3
03
26
PM
PDT
Salvador, thanks for explaining your use of John 10:38. In context, Jesus was answering a charge of blasphemy. He appears to have been telling his accusers to look past the difficulty they had with his claim to be the Son of God and recognize that his life, and the works ("miracles" in NIV) he did, were consistent with the works of God. This recognition should lead them to believe that that he was, in fact, one with the Father. Salvador wrote: "To insist that one and only one formula is the only way I think is mistaken." Certainly. The biblical examples of Peter at Pentecost and Paul on Mars Hill gives evidence of this. Of course, consistent with the illustration you gave of the woman you met in the Freethinkers group, being flexible with one's approach doesn't negate the Christian's objective of leading people to Christ. Salvador wrote: "What has deeply concerned me is that the attitude by the die-hard YECs is starting a minor civil war in my own denomination, and I do not want the theology-free science of ID to suffer victim to sectarian dogma." This is too bad. It sounds like something that can cause you only grief and frustration. Now, in a Christian denomination, I believe there is good reason for insisting on YEC. At the same time, it sounds as though the ones who are doing so in your denomination may be taking an unwise approach; and this, unfortunately, can give a very negative slant to a position that is essentially sound. While I certainly wouldn't promote materials whose objective was to help Christians harmonize the Bible with a belief in an old earth, I would have no hesitation at all with materials that are strictly on ID. Although such materials may assume and allude to the conventional age of the earth and universe, that issue is extraneous to their main point. As I've looked through the many comments that have been accumulating here, I've read things I very much agree with, as well as things that seem to me foolish or misinformed. Part of me is inclined to respond to specifics, but what would be the point? This forum isn't about theology, after all; it's about ID--and I'm sure that most of the people who have contributed to this thread would agree that the evidence for design is obvious. When it comes to ID, I think most of us are on the same side of the fence. It has been noted that YEC Christians have seemed rigidly unreceptive to ID, and there is some justification for this perception (e.g., in some of what appears on the AIG Web site). On the other hand, as a Christian who holds firmly to the YEC perspective, I have seen unfavorable allusions from others in the ID camp to those who believe the earth is only around 6,000 years old--as though we're still clinging childishly to outmoded fundamentalist beliefs. The difference, perhaps, is that some of the detracting remarks on the YEC side have actually come from official leaders. I'm not aware of any ID leaders similarly distancing themselves from YEC Christians in a public way. To the contrary, I noted with appreciation Dr. Dembski's response to the advice to "distance" himself from the "obstreperous" Phil Johnson and especially from those (cringe) young-earth creationists. Yet YEC and ID should have no conflict. As far as I know, ID as a developing field of scientific inquiry doesn't make claims beyond the fact that design is detectable and that the design we see in the natural world is real and therefore indicative of intelligence. Salvador, I've seen evidence of your participation in lots of places where the issue of origins science comes up, and I think that's great. You're not just "preaching to the choir" but seem to be challenging the opponents on their own ground. I have a lot of respect for those who have the courage to do that and could wish I saw this admirable virtue in myself. I likewise have much respect for people like Dr. Dembski and others in the ID movement. I know I would disagree with many of them on the age of the earth; however, these guys are at the forefront of something I think is very important, and I admire them for it. They are actually getting their hands dirty and drawing fire by speaking, publishing, and providing the rest of us with good resources. Rickintp147
August 12, 2006
August
08
Aug
12
12
2006
03:11 PM
3
03
11
PM
PDT
Hey BarryA. Here are my comments:
“If you notice in Paul’s speech in Mars Hill he starts with Creation” Yes, but he did not pound them over the head with a particular interpretation of Genesis.
Actually, he says that God is the Creator, and that all mankind comes from ONE man, as clearly stated in Genesis. Secondly, no one said that Paul "pounded" anyone's head. My point is that the methodology used by Paul when dealing with non-Creation based culture is the same AIG, ICR and CMI use to this very day. If you notice Paul's speach to the Jews, you'll notice that he seldom (if ever) apeals to Creation. Why? Bkz the Jewish culture was already a Creation based culture. For an example of what I mean, you should try to get Ken Ham's final speach on the Mega Creation Conference - 2005.
I have been studying YEC material for decades, including but not limited to, AiG and ICR. I remain unconvinced.
Well, that's your problem not theirs.
God may well have created the universe with an illusion of vast age. Being God, that’s his prerogative. All I am saying is that I remain unconvinced that we can be certain that He did so.
If the Word of God is not enough to convince you, then nothing will.
“When Christians talk about origins we cannot leave the Bible out, since it’s the ONLY Reliable Source for origins information.” The Bible itself refutes this statement. Look at Psalm 19 (quoted already above) and Romans 1.
Really? Can you know by looking at the heavens why God created? Can you know when God created by looking at nature? Can you say, without the Bible, why there is death, desease and sufering in the world? Can you say, without the BIble, why we have a 7 day week? Can you say, without the Bible, which life forms were created first, and whcih caem later? etc, etc. For a Christian, the Bible is the Starting Point and the Final Authority in matters of Creation.
Maybe it’s just Ham’s arrogance that angers me. I have personally watched him on TV and listened to him on the radio. He almost always asks the question, “If you don’t believe Genesis chapter 1 [by which he means if you don’t believe his interpretation of Genesis chapter 1], how can you believe the rest of the Bible?”
That is 100% right. If not, just think of this: Genesis 1-11 is written in the narrative fashion as Genesis 12 onwards. If you say that Gen 1-11 is not a recoletion of historical events, how do you know that Gen 12 is? What makes you judge that Gen 1 is not an historical description of events, and Gen 12, where Abram leaves his homeland, is? When does God start telling the truth? In Exodus? Or maybe in Numbers? Or perhaps in 2 Kings? See, if you open the door to "alternative interpretationss", totaly void of Biblical consistency, you will loose all the ground you need. Think of this: what do you think destroyed Christianity in most european nations? Wasn't it the compromise Christian churches did with the milliosn of years? ONce that door was opened, evolution came in and defeat soon after.
I would like to see where he flatly says an OEC can be a Christian. Please provide a source.
http://www.answersingenesis.org/AnswersMedia/play.aspx?mediaID=000626_ans In here, you'll see that he doesn't deny that you can be a Christian and believe in evolution. What he points out is the inconsisteny of such a position. Regarding your question: in order to be an evolutionist, you haev to accept the "millions of years", therefore, we can infer that, in Ken's View, you can believe in millions of years and be a Christian. However it is very inconsistent.
“Are you ‘dogmatic’ about the Deity of the Lord? Why?” Yes. I am a Christian and this is the central tenant of the Christian faith.
So is the Fall, the literal Garden of Eden, the literal Curse, the doctrine of marriage, presented initialy in Genesis, the literal creation week, etc, etc. If you don't believe in the "bad news" mentioned in Genesis, you don't have no foundation for the Good News. The reason we have the Good News it's due to what happened in Genesis 3. If you knock down the Authority of your own Holy Bool RIGHT where it sets the tone for the rest of the Book, you loose all stand. That is why the humanists are so interested in shoving Evolutionism into the churches, bkz they know that, the moment you accept it, you are rejecting Genesis, and in turn, opening the door for totaly eradication of Christianity. Just see what happened in Europe.
I am selectively dogmatic. About the essentials of the faith (i.e., dogma), I am dogmatic.
How do you determine what is "essential" ?Mats
August 12, 2006
August
08
Aug
12
12
2006
02:22 PM
2
02
22
PM
PDT
Mats, God bless you as well. We can ill afford to be at odds. But if I may plead that you consider something. To be mistaken is not the same as being a compromiser. Even in the Old Testament the Lord distinguished between willful sin and unintended wrongs. Let's hypothetically say YEC is true. Would that make James Dobson a compromiser (a person willfully defying God to please the world) or someone mistaken? The label compromiser or servant of evil carries horrible connotations, and if in the eyes of God distinctions are made between willful sin and that which is wrong but unintended, then how much more ought Christians to bear with those, even leaders who are well-meaning but perhaps mistaken. For OECs and IDers to be labeled such things I think is unjust. But even more to the point of why there is distaste over this issue amongst your OEC and OE-IDer brethren: in Academia, it's the Old-Earth IDers who are being persecuted and who are suffering. They have been the one's showing character and evidencing quite the opposite of people who could be labled "compromisers". It is they who are assailing the once impregnable fortresses of materialism, and it is they who are suffering casualties. Consider that Guillermo Gonzalez was confronted with hundreds of signatures plastered on the doors protesting his work, that people are doing what they can to ensure he is punished for his work on Privileged Planet -- isn't it a bit much for YECs (such as those in Westminster Presbytery) to label people like Gonzalez "compromisers"? Thankfully, for me, I'm in Potomac Presbytery where I won't be hunted down as a heretic. And one congregation in our Presbytery, McLean Presybyterian, Virginia (PCA) showed Privileged Planet on a Friday night last Fall. I find it a little much to be labeling such activities as compromise or spreading the lies which lead to decay in morals and society. And the real irony is ICR is selling the video! I mean, is ICR now being complicit in perpetrating stealth OEC? I would assert, perhaps there are things of greater priorty which should be granted credal status (as in what is required for church membership or leadership). I don't think such things as ID or age of the Earth should be elevated to credal status. Even though I do believe there is a right and factual answer regarding origins, and even though I lean toward YEC, if someone is undecided or even mistaken about what is true on these issues, perhaps these matters are not something that should be used to describe someone's character. The end result of such labeling is only ruffling feathers, and giving the materialists more opportunity to over run our churches as we exercise our freedom of religion. God bless you, Mats. And I hope we can work together, and that the creationists will find ways to support the theology-free science of ID. Salvadorscordova
August 12, 2006
August
08
Aug
12
12
2006
02:03 PM
2
02
03
PM
PDT
Sal, Nothing in my posts sugests that I deny ID's place as a valid scientific theory. My comments were to clarify some issues regarding Genesis, Young Earth Creationists and their relationship with ID. I hope nobody's toes were stepped on. ;) God bless!Mats
August 12, 2006
August
08
Aug
12
12
2006
01:21 PM
1
01
21
PM
PDT
Matts, Very briefly: “If you notice in Paul’s speech in Mars Hill he starts with Creation” Yes, but he did not pound them over the head with a particular interpretation of Genesis. He was speaking of creation generally, not the Genesis account. He was doing nothing more than building common ground with fellow theists. To suggest that he was arguing for a particular view of scripture is not supported by the text. “but if you read more YEC material, specially the sites I provided to Sal, you’ll see that the evidence best fit with YEC.” I have been studying YEC material for decades, including but not limited to, AiG and ICR. I remain unconvinced. I do not exclude a young earth in principle. God may well have created the universe with an illusion of vast age. Being God, that’s his prerogative. All I am saying is that I remain unconvinced that we can be certain that He did so. “But that is what IDers do, not Christians.” Well, I hope there is some overlap between the two categories. “When Christians talk about origins we cannot leave the Bible out, since it’s the ONLY Reliable Source for origins information.” The Bible itself refutes this statement. Look at Psalm 19 (quoted already above) and Romans 1. “‘Ken Ham angers me when he implies that if you don’t share his interpretation of Genesis 1 you can’t be a Christian.’ Where exactly did he say that?” Maybe it’s just Ham’s arrogance that angers me. I have personally watched him on TV and listened to him on the radio. He almost always asks the question, “If you don’t believe Genesis chapter 1 [by which he means if you don’t believe his interpretation of Genesis chapter 1], how can you believe the rest of the Bible?” The implications of the question are clear enough. I would like to see where he flatly says an OEC can be a Christian. Please provide a source. “‘No, Ken is wrong. I did not reason forward from the truth of Genesis to the deity of Christ.’ Paul did. Was he wrong?” Actually, Paul reasoned from being whacked on the road to Damascus to the existence of a whacker. “Are you ‘dogmatic’ about the Deity of the Lord? Why?” Yes. I am a Christian and this is the central tenant of the Christian faith. If I were not dogmatic about this, I would not be a Christian. “And if you are ‘dogmatic’ about the Deity of the Lord Jesus, why not be consistent and be ‘dogmatic’ with the rest of the Holy Bible? Or you are selectively ‘dogmatic’?” Why yes, I am selectively dogmatic. About the essentials of the faith (i.e., dogma), I am dogmatic. About matters that are not essential (i.e., non-dogma), I am not dogmatic. Read Romans 14.BarryA
August 12, 2006
August
08
Aug
12
12
2006
01:18 PM
1
01
18
PM
PDT
J Guy, I did not see your earlier posts. Some things that get stuck in the moderation queue are beyond my control. I can appreciate it may seem I mischaracterized Ham. All I can say is that the letter from my Presbytery shows deep concern that people like me would become outcasts in the church, and even though I'm a creationist! This is negative development by for ID in the PCA that is thankfully being counter balanced by other Presbytery's such as mine and D. James Kennedy's and the General Assembly. For example, it is public knowledge, David Snoke is an elder in the PCA as well as a respected physicist. Will he be ditched from service if he happens to discuss Old-Earth ideas (I do not know what he believes, I'm only pointing out a hypothetical situation)? Or gasp, what if he is caught showing clips of Privileged Planet to others? I guess in the spirit of news reporting, it is apparent, that in some respects I'm concerned that ID might get dismissed by theological fiat. Thus, I find myself in the unenviable position of someone like Eugenie Scott pleading with people of faith that the idea I'm selling is theologically neutral. lol! Finally regarding speed of light and the outcast of outcasts, you may want to read: Brown on Setterfield, Barrow, Trotsky, Van Flandern and others. And finally, just to let you know there are competing ideas on the subject, read: Reports of the Death of Speed of Light Decay are Premature. It details a legendary parry between 2 groups of YECs: Setterfield, Norman, Dolphin and Montgomery (independents) vs. Aardsma (ICR), R. H. Brown (GRI-Loma Linda), Humphreys(ICR-AiG) and Evered And if you really want some mental exercise, you might visit www.setterfield.org Salvadorscordova
August 12, 2006
August
08
Aug
12
12
2006
12:56 PM
12
12
56
PM
PDT
J Guy! Thanks! There is hope this world yet. ICR sells heretical Old-Earth pro-ID material: Privileged Planet How scandalous. Salvadorscordova
August 12, 2006
August
08
Aug
12
12
2006
12:30 PM
12
12
30
PM
PDT
Greetings, I would like to pose a question for any OEC Bible-believing Christian in this discussion. If, hypothetically, God had indeed created the world in six actual 24 hour days, how would Genesis 1 have been written? If you are a OEC Christian, you MUST believe the Genesis text to read that the world was created in days (periods), each consisting in millions of years. Therefore, how would Genesis have been written if God had intended to convey that He created the world in six 24 hour days? On a side note, it is interesting that "day" in Hebrew is never associated with a long period of time when an ordinal adjective (i.e. the sixth day) is associated with it. Thanks, Saxesaxe17
August 12, 2006
August
08
Aug
12
12
2006
12:03 PM
12
12
03
PM
PDT
Mats, One of my posts is apparently in the moderation queue (probably spam filtering). I can see the members here have irreconcilable differences on theology. Can we just agree to disagree at this point, lest this thread seriously deteriorate? Can I count on your support of ID as a scientific exploration? Can I count on you to try to let people know ID does not assert infallibility or even theology? ID can ill afford to lose the support of creationists, imho. Salvadorscordova
August 12, 2006
August
08
Aug
12
12
2006
11:49 AM
11
11
49
AM
PDT
hey bFast. Allow me to comment on a few points:
Let me make the ‘mini-case’. 1 - On interpretation of scripture, we note that God said to Adam, “In the day you eat of it, you will surely die.” At the time God said this, this was the only Scripture that had yet been revealed to Adam. Yet when Adam ate, his immediate “death” was metaphorical, not literal. His literal death came over 500 years later. This to say, a “literal unless literal cannot be supported” interpretive position is in error. I repeat, ALL SCRIPTURE THAT Adam HAD would indicate that literal, physical death should follow his sin within 24 hours. Correct interpretation was metaphorical, even though a literal interpretation was feasible.
Actually, bFast, the hebrew reads "dying you shall die", and Adam started to die when he sinned. Thus, this arguement won't stand.
The best single case I can find for an old earth interpretation of Geneis 1 (not the only case) is this: In Genesis 2, Adam was asked to name all of the animals. It became clear that none of the animals would make a reasonable mate for him, and Eve was made. All of this activity, especially any sense on Adam’s part of his own loneliness, fitting within 24 hours is not reasonable. Genesis 1 clearly says that on the sixth day, “man and woman created he them.” The literal interpretation, therefore, is not a comforatable fit.
Actually, bFast, Adam was to name all the basic KINDS God created. For example, the lion, the tiger, the cheetah and the bobcat, and all other interfertile large felines could have come from a single created kind. Thus, he didn't have to name "millions" of animals, but only the basic kind. Secondly, he only had to name land animals and birds (Gen 2:20). bFast, all these arguements against the literal days in Genesis are written over and over again in YEC's sources. I am sure you can find them in there..
All this to say, please don’t go playing the Devil’s role of “accuser of the brethren” when trying to strong-arm us other Christians into accepting a YEC position.
Paul accused his brethren Peter when he saw that Peter was wrong doing. Why can't YEC's do the same, respectfully and in loving manner, to those who profess the CHristian faith yet deny the plain meaning of Genesis?
There is no scientific evidence of a flood that whiped out all but 7.
Except for the million of fossils found all over the world. Seven? WHo did you leave out? The Bible says 8 people (Gen 7:7, Gen10:1): Noah + his wife - 2 Shem + his wife - 4 Jephet + his wife - 6 Ham + his wife - 8 Anyway, I hope you don't take offense at my comments. In no way I mean any harm. I just hope people would stop and think about the mindset that says "YEC is going nowhere, let's all jump into the ID bandwagon". Perhaps the attacks Darwinists make upon ID as being "Creationism in disguise" leads many IDers people say unfriendly things about Creationism, but, in my view, I don't think that is necessary. ID can stand on its own, and Creationism has clearly stood on its own for decades. God blessMats
August 12, 2006
August
08
Aug
12
12
2006
11:43 AM
11
11
43
AM
PDT
Gentleman (and ladies), I sense we are not going to agree on many issues, and I perhaps am as guilty as any for lighting a fire in the forest. But before we descend into anything like a PZ vs. Lenny Flank exchange, please everyone try to calm down. I've accused Ham of being unbiblical, and I can understand why others may see me as unbiblical. My aim was to appeal to creationists who are undecided about ID. I'm distressed to hear things like Intelligent design: is it intelligent; is it Christian?. Ok, let's say for argument sake a creationist have issues with ID on theological grounds, can I at least count on you guys to support us on scinetific grounds? Mats, jpark320, your help, please? ID can ill afford making any more enemies than it already has. If you can support the science within ID, perhaps that is the most I can ask from some. If there are congregational elders out there reading this, I hope that I have at least made the point clear ID does NOT assert to be infallible or God's word, any more than scientific theories like Zero-Point-Energy or quasi-particle theory. Because ID does not claim infallibility, there is no reason I think it should be rejected on theolgoical grounds. As a theory, it will ultimately live or die on brute empirical and theoretical facts. Salvadorscordova
August 12, 2006
August
08
Aug
12
12
2006
11:28 AM
11
11
28
AM
PDT
Salvador, You said: "Actually the ICR carries all of Johnson’s books. I would hope they’ll be willing to carry Privileged Planet by Gonzalez, but maybe that would be a bit much." Just to let you know, I live in San Diego near ICR. For convenience, I bought my copy of Priviledged Planet DVD in ICR's bookstore, as well as 'Unlocking the Mystery of Life' - and Behe's book & Remine's book...etc... and they are online: http://www.icr.org/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=2638 http://www.icr.org/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=2550 I hope this puts you at ease ;) jokingJGuy
August 12, 2006
August
08
Aug
12
12
2006
11:24 AM
11
11
24
AM
PDT
Hi BarryA. I would like to comment on your post #12
Paul wrote, “follow me as I follow God,” i. e. follow my example. Why some YEC’s refuse to follow his example in the origins controversy is a matter that has always puzzled me.
If you notice in Paul's speach in Mars Hill he starts with Creation (Acts 17:24), mentioning that we all descendents of one man (17:26), as mentioned in Genesis, and ends up in the Gospel (17:31). This is PRECISELY the methodology used by YEC's. So, when you attack YEC's methods, you are actually attacking the method used by the apostle when among a non-Creation based culture. The problem is that non YEC preach to evolutionists as if they are talking with a creation based culture, thus, not having an kind of Biblical foundation.
If the debate turns on whether the earth is only 6,000 years old, you lose. Period.
That's your view, and I respect it, but if you read more YEC material, specially the sites I provided to Sal, you'll see that the evidence best fit with YEC. Secondly, naturally, if you are teaching ID, you leave the Bible out since ID is not religion. But that is what IDers do, not Christians. When Christians talk about origins we cannot leave the Bible out, since it's the ONLY Reliable Source for origins information.
Ken Ham angers me when he implies that if you don’t share his interpretation of Genesis 1 you can’t be a Christian.
Where exacly did he say that? Can you provide any reference for this claim? I very much would love to see that, Barry, considering that AIG never denies that one can be a Christian and believe that the world is millions of years old. But anyway, I would love to see the reference for your claim.
I will take Paul’s word over Ken’s.
Then you should preach just like Paul did, using the Genesis testemony as a starting point, and ending with the Gospel, like AIG does.
Paul says that if I confess with my mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in my heart that God has raised him from the dead, I shall be saved. Paul does NOT say if I confess with my mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in my heart that God has raised him from the dead AND hold a particular hermeneutic that leads to a particular interpretation of the first chapter of Genesis I shall be saved.
This is ......ludicrous! I can't believe you made this type of arguement. Are you serious?!
No, Ken is wrong. I did not reason forward from the truth of Genesis to the deity of Christ.
Paul did. Was he wrong?
I reasoned backwards from the empty tomb to the deity of Christ, and since Christ, who is God, says Genesis chapter 1 is true, I believe it is true, but I am not dogmatic about what it means.
Are you "dogmatic" about the Deity of the Lord? Why? And if you are "dogmatic" about the Deity of the Lord Jesus, why not be consistent and be "dogmatic" with the rest of the Holy Bible? Or you are selectively "dogmatic"?
After many years of thought on the subject, I have come to a place where I am perfectly comfortable saying, “One thing I know for sure. His tomb is empty, and everything else hangs on that one thing. Other things I do not know for sure, and that’s OK
Others have given many years of thought and have concluded that Gensis 1 is totally essential for a consistent Christian doctrine, and they are not ashamed in being "dogmatic" about the Truth. The BIble says "no lie is of the Truth", so there is no harm in being intolerant of evolutionary falsehoods.Mats
August 12, 2006
August
08
Aug
12
12
2006
11:11 AM
11
11
11
AM
PDT
Whatever a creationst may say about IDers theologically, to the extent they keep selling pro-ID books by those who accept Old-Earth and/or common ancestry, I'm not going protest. I found this heretical Old Earth and/or common ancestry pro-ID material at the AiG bookstore: Darwin's Black Box by Michael Behe Evolution a Theory in Crisis by Michael Denton Or how about this scripture free creationist offering by IDer Walter ReMine The Biotic Message or this one by an old Earth non-Evangelical Not by Chance by Lee Spetner or this at ICR by Phil Johnson: Darwin on Trial Actually the ICR carries all of Johnson's books. I would hope they'll be willing to carry Privileged Planet by Gonzalez, but maybe that would be a bit much. :-)scordova
August 12, 2006
August
08
Aug
12
12
2006
10:34 AM
10
10
34
AM
PDT
Sal, I've felt the speed of light would be related to the rate of radioactive decay. That has been my gut instinct. Of course, that is just me & my gut :) And I once posted a remark based on my gut before, that I was curious if it had any merit. Let me ask you - Do you think that there are any reasons that the rate of expansion, or amount of expansion of the universe (my thoughts are revolving around space density) has any bearing on the speed of light and/or rate of radioactive decay? I hope this isn't too off topic. BTW: I do also think this (the 'constancy' of the speed of light) is something that should be considered seriously.JGuy
August 12, 2006
August
08
Aug
12
12
2006
10:16 AM
10
10
16
AM
PDT
DLH wrote: On Mars Hill, Paul appealed to an historic supernatural intervention in their own culture memorialized by altars to the unknown God - referring to stopping the plague after sacrificing to the unknown God on 7 altars. See Richardson, Don, Eternity in Their Hearts. Regal Books 1981
Thank you for that data point. I did not know that. In our day and age, with respect to the origin of the universe, it is the Unknown Intelligent Designer. To the readers at UD who come to the discussion from a different persptective than those represented here, I'd like to thank your indulgence for allowing me to to discuss things outside of ID proper. I felt it necessary because, as is often the case, it is one's philosophy that may support or resist the theology-free approach of ID. Furthermore, many creationists do not understand what ID really is, and it was my hope that this essay would especially educate creationists what ID is and is not. Coral Ridge is a PCA ministry with strong creationist ties. I am glad to see creationists from such a concervative organization report favorably on ID. This is not as big news as Pope Benedict's friendliness to ID, but in my circles, it's big news!scordova
August 12, 2006
August
08
Aug
12
12
2006
10:01 AM
10
10
01
AM
PDT
Sal -- I have to agree with you here. It often seems that YECs (if not the scientists, certainly the non-scientists) want to get too quickly "married" to an idea and say "this is the truth". What often happens is the same thing that they complain about happening in the secular world -- if your faith is bound on science which is changing constantly, then your faith will be changing constantly. This is true whether your science is uniformitarian or catastrophism. This is why I was thrilled to see in the latest Journal of Creation a paper on australopithecus walking upright. This is very significant because it goes against a lot of what has been published in that journal previously, and on their websites. Now I don't personally care whether australopithecus walked upright or not. But it is encouraging that JoC/TJ was able to put aside the impact that the paper might have on their previous apologetics and publish the paper. I also think that there is a difference between science led by apologetics and science led by faith. I hope for less of the former and more of the latter. I certainly don't mind apologetics, but I think it has been shown to be dangerous for science to be led primarily by apologetic reasoning, and in fact there is more apologetic value in science led by faith than apologetics. Having said that, I don't hold the same contempt for many of the YEC organizations and activities (past and present) that many in the ID movement do. I think they have served a significant purpose -- if only sometimes to get people thinking about and asking the questions that hadn't been asked for a long time. If I remember correctly, Dembski, while he does not subscribe to the YEC/flood geology view, was first inspired by reading one of Morris's books. I think I can safely say that for many of the people doing good science in a Christian perspective, very few of them would have even thought to do so if it weren't for the work of those organizations who have gone before, even if we don't approve of everything they do, teach, or even how they go about their work.johnnyb
August 12, 2006
August
08
Aug
12
12
2006
09:37 AM
9
09
37
AM
PDT
Mats, I hope what I have written has not unduly offended you. Whether I am right or wrong, I hope you will not cease from your particiaption at UD because of what I and others have said. Even if you disagree with me, IDers can ill afford to lose the support of people like you. So, my apologies if I have offended you. That was not my intent. Salvadorscordova
August 12, 2006
August
08
Aug
12
12
2006
09:32 AM
9
09
32
AM
PDT
Doing so, however, is entirely a matter of faith and a definitive rebuttal is beyond scientific debate, hence “The Earth is young because the Bible says it” is not science. And, of course, just because it's not science, doesn't mean it's not true. :-)tribune7
August 12, 2006
August
08
Aug
12
12
2006
09:27 AM
9
09
27
AM
PDT
Salvador, great points as always. I don't think YEC is irrational or that it is wrong to cite the Bible as your authority in understanding matters of the universe. Doing so, however, is entirely a matter of faith and a definitive rebuttal is beyond scientific debate, hence "The Earth is young because the Bible says it" is not science. It is not beyond the pale to use the Bible as a starting point to find testable truth, and this has been done in archaeology, but of course once things are claimed to be testable, they can be tested and subject to failure which means it is a grave mistake to base one's faith in the spirtual on the testable. Anyway: Happy the man who bears within him a divinity, an ideal of beauty and obeys it; and ideal of art, and ideal of science, an ideal of country, and ideal of the virtues of the Gospel. -- Louis Pasteurtribune7
August 12, 2006
August
08
Aug
12
12
2006
09:25 AM
9
09
25
AM
PDT
1 2 3

Leave a Reply