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Darwin lobby: Don’t teach epigenetics, kids won’t understand

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Readers may recall that yesterday we noted that Darwin’s darling Zack Kopplin didn’t want to talk about epigenetics (the way in which interactions with the environment affect our genetic instructions).

A friend writes to say that soon-to-retire “Darwin in the schools” lobbyist Eugenie Scott thinks it’s fine not to teach students about epigenetics because

It was almost a relief when an antievolutionist contended that the books should be rejected because they don’t include epigenetics. At least the epigenetics argument is relatively recent (perhaps only 5-8 years old). In creation-think, including epigenetics in biology textbooks will weaken evolution because epigenetics is evidence against evolution. Yeah, I know it isn’t, but to creationists, any process that isn’t natural selection weakens natural selection as an evolutionary mechanism, and if natural selection isn’t strong enough to produce evolution, that means that evolution didn’t take place, and…and…You get the picture. Never mind that epigenetics isn’t in the TEKS, the state science education standards, and generally isn’t a topic for beginning biology learners. [colour emphasis added]

What’s really interesting here is how important Darwin’s hot 19th century theory about natural selection acting on random mutation seems to her. To doubt its near—or actual (I don’t have the script in front of me)—divine power is to doubt that any kind of evolution occurs.

In short, the best-known Darwin lobbyist thinks the evidence for evolution in general is so weak that doubts about the power of natural selection to randomly produce intricate new equipment must mean that evolution never happens. Good thing she said it herself.

By the way, here’s more evidence that some media sources were floating the story that “Texas law bans teaching about evolution in books” as of late yesterday. Who are these airheads, and why do you rely on them for news, if you do?

Comments
gensci, I don't at all share your view that "everyone here understands epigenetics". I see a lot of evidence of a great deal of confusion. And to be referred to a children's video series costing rather a lot of dollars as a source, is not helpful. You said it was very simple, and therefore suitable to be taught to children. Please provide a short simple summary of what you think are the key concepts. If they are suitable to be taught to children, this should not be difficult.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 20, 2013
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@Mung You may be interested in Wetware: A Computer in Every Living Cell Thanks. After a quick skim through the TOC and couple dozen pages on Amazon, it is precisely the position on the origin of biological novelty and evolution I have had for some time. That kind of computational perspective will eventually prevail. The sad part is that ID could have naturally taken that entire terrain as its own, but listening to Meyer and others, it doesn't seem it can change its language from the nature spirits talk (aka 'consciousness' talk) to the computational and algorithmic language which is the only way ID can evolve into natural science. Instead, the neo-Darwinists will morph their stories first into it and pretend to have been 'computationalists' all along.nightlight
September 20, 2013
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even define epigenetics
I don't think there is a specific definition for epigenetic except that it is anything not in the genome that affects gene expression. A lot of what is called epigenetics is methylation which is a major factor that affects gene expression. Other non-genetic factors during gestation are in the embryo which also affects body layout and gene expression. Little is known about this except it is most likely in the egg cytoplasm or cell wall.jerry
September 20, 2013
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Hi WD400, I think everyone here understands epigenetics, so no need to define it, correct? If you need a definition, you can purchase and listen to the Jonathan Park audio series for children I linked to earlier. Also, do a search for "Pennisi Evolutionary Heresy Science 2013" and you should come across her article where I got the "raising hackles" quote from, plus a definition of epigenetics.gensci
September 20, 2013
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This is getting tiring. EL:
Germline epigenetic marking (which I gather is the “epigenetics” in question here) is not the same thing as targeted (or non-random) genetic changes.
EL:
And are you talking about somatic or germline epigenetics?
Mung
September 20, 2013
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I agree entirely with those statements Mung. I think you might be confused about what epigenetics is, and how it works...wd400
September 20, 2013
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Elizabeth Liddle:
Genetics is a far greater determiner of the phenotype than germline epigenetics. On the other hand, somatic epigenetics is vital to development, as it is key to tissue differentiation.
Just freaking wow. Elizabeth Liddle:
Nobody here, surely, of all places, disputes that DNA sequences are overwhelmingly responsible for the phenotype...
Elizabeth Liddle:
On the other hand, somatic epigenetics is vital to development...
Mung
September 20, 2013
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What I’m finding is it raises hackles for almost every single evolutionary biologist I talk to, and that’s just weird. That's probably because folks keep saying epigenetics is a problem for evolutionary biology but no one (32 comments into yet another thread on the topic) and say why that's the case... or even define epigenetics.wd400
September 20, 2013
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Elizabeth Liddle:
Nobody here, surely, of all places, disputes that DNA sequences are overwhelmingly responsible for the phenotype...
Really? What do you think epigenetics means, Elizabeth?Mung
September 20, 2013
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The JP message is that God is an awesome creator, and that evoltion"ism" paints a false picture of reality. But hey, it's awesome that you think epigenetics should be included in government school texts, good for you! As a recent article in science said, epigenetics "raises hackles" for some biologists, but you don't seem to be one of those kind so much. What I'm finding is it raises hackles for almost every single evolutionary biologist I talk to, and that's just weird.gensci
September 20, 2013
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Ho-De-Ho:
Is it because we have all been told for many a moon, that Natural Selection working on Random Mutation is responsible for all of the diversity of life around about?
That's a large part of it, I'm sure. But let's keep in mind that the epigenetic (and other related) challenges to neo-Darwinism are not of creationist manufacture. (Not that you've even hinted that they are.) The basic model of neo-Darwinism as that of population genetics. What would "the modern synthesis" be without it? And even our dear Lizzie can see that it wears thin:
But the idea that it might be suppressed because it undermines evolutionary theory really is very strange. It does mean we have to move beyond classical neo-Darwinism, which is a good thing, because I think (being Noble fan) that it is time we moved on from an exclusively gene-centred model.
Has she erected a straw-man? Does she really understand at least this much about neo-Darwinism? It is an exclusively gene-centered model. Then our dear Elizabeth, who doesn't know what 'Darwinism' is, states:
We also need to consider natural selection at between-population level as well as within-population (as Noble, and Shapiro) have argued, rightly in my view.
She knows about the gene-centric nature, and about natural selection at the level of the population, and disagrees with both, but stands in wonder at anyone who would question 'Darwinism.' Not a convincing act by any stretch.Mung
September 20, 2013
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Elizabeth Liddle:
What is interesting about germline epigenetics is that it does potentially provide an additional adaptive mechanism to that of natural selection (although by no means all epigenetic changes are adaptive – some, I don’t know what proportion – are actually maladaptive).
Germline epigenetics? That comes awfully close to being an oxymoron, imo. But please do tell how it helps Darwinism at all? Epigenetics and the germline. Fine-tuning evolution: germ-line epigenetics and inheritance.Mung
September 20, 2013
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nightlight:
The actual process producing evolutionary novelties is increasingly looking like computation by the biochemical networks running anticipatory algorithms, i.e. there is intelligent source of novelties, which is a position well within the ID perspective (minus the gratuitous, sterile “consciousness” mystification by Stephen Meyer and few others).
You may be interested in Wetware: A Computer in Every Living CellMung
September 20, 2013
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Because it’s not Darwinian I find that very hard to understand, since Darwin himself believed in epigenetic inheritancewd400
September 20, 2013
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I know a lot about Darwinian evolution, Mung, as you well know. "Darwinism" is a mystery to me. It seems to mean whatever the writer using it wants it to mean.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 20, 2013
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Mung, how does epigenetics challenge the Darwinian model of HEREDITY? Or how much would evolutionary biology have to change in trans-generational epigenetic inheritance was found to be common-place in biology (it certainly hasn't been yet).wd400
September 20, 2013
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For the simple reason, gensci, that there is a limit to how much can be taught at HS, and right now, germline epigenetic effects are small print, stuff, very much under active research, with lots of unknowns. Which is exactly why it is worth a mention - I think it is very important to teach about topics that are under active investigation as well as well-established mechanisms, like somatic epigenetics and their role in development, and the genetic vector for inheritance. I'd like to know, though, what you think that children's series you linked to, presents. Just a brief simple summary - what is the message?Elizabeth B Liddle
September 20, 2013
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Elizabeth Liddle:
Can you explain why epigenetics is evidence against Darwinian evolution, news?
Because it's not Darwinian. But then, you wouldn't know about that, because you don't even know what Darwinism entails, do you. "I don’t know what 'Darwinism' is, and I am not a “Darwinist” - Elizabeth LiddleMung
September 20, 2013
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Hi Elizabeth, no confusion here. Glad you think somatic epigenetics should be taught. But germline epigenetics are only "worth a mention?" Are you kidding me?! Surely you know we basically have a diabetes epidemic in this country, and epigenetic studies by Randy Jirtle and many others are revealing the huge connections between diet and germline epigenetics. This is more than just "worth a mention."gensci
September 20, 2013
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It was almost a relief when an antievolutionist contended that the books should be rejected because they don’t include epigenetics. At least the epigenetics argument is relatively recent (perhaps only 5-8 years old). In creation-think, including epigenetics in biology textbooks will weaken evolution because epigenetics is evidence against evolution. Yeah, I know it isn’t, but to creationists, any process that isn’t natural selection weakens natural selection as an evolutionary mechanism...
More Darwinist dissembling. Oh, look over here and ignore the real issue.
Ideas about heredity and evolution are undergoing a revolutionary change. New findings in molecular biology challenge the gene-centered version of Darwinism ... In Evolution in Four Dimensions Eva Jablonka and Marion Lamb argue that there is more to heredity than genes.
Epigenetics challenges the Darwinian model of HEREDITY. Eugenie Scott is either ignorant or willfully misleading people.Mung
September 20, 2013
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Gensci, You'd have to explain what "ideology" is at stake when it comes to teaching epigenetics. As yet no one has given a clear argument as to why epigenteics (however they define it) is a problem for evolutionary biology...wd400
September 20, 2013
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gensci, I'm asking you to explain it. Because I think you are confused. I'd like to know what you mean by "the epigenome directs the genome". I've already said that somatic epigenetics should be taught, and that germline epigenetics are worth a mention.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 20, 2013
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Hi Elizabeth, here's a link to an audio series for elementary-aged kids that teaches them epigenetics. If they can explain it to little kids, don't you think HS students could understand it? Seems to me the only reason folks are saying "no" is they are clinging to tightly to their ideology: http://www.visionforum.com/browse/product/jonathan-park-the-voyage-beyond/default.aspxgensci
September 20, 2013
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Hi Elizabeth, everywhere I read, scientists are talking about epigenetics. It is basic biology now to know that the epigenome directs the genome, yet there is zero mention of epigenetics in current government school texts. If mention of epigenetics doesn’t get into Texas textbooks now, it won’t be in for another 10 years, handicapping Texans, plus students in other states who purchase the same books. Do you think it should go in now, later, never?
Could you explain, in HS terms, how you think "the epigenome directs the genome"? And are you talking about somatic or germline epigenetics?Elizabeth B Liddle
September 20, 2013
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No, I did not misread you. Germline epigenetic marking (which I gather is the "epigenetics" in question here) is not the same thing as targeted (or non-random) genetic changes. If the latter is what you are talking about, then you might have a point. Indeed Shapiro has raised this possibility - that mutations may not be orthogonal to fitness, and that mutational processes may preferentially result in fitter genomes in the current environment. This is an intriguing possibility, however, the evidence for it is extremely week. The vast majority of novel genetic sequences are neutral in the current environment. In a well-adapted population, evolutionary theory predicts that beneficial mutations will tend to be rarer than deleterious ones. The balance will tend to move towards beneficial mutations when the environment changes. And indeed, this is what we observe - optimisation is non-linear, proceeding more slowly as optimisation is reached. But it is certainly possible that there some additional factor actually promotes adaptive mutations. There would be population-level reasons to predict this, as Shapiro has suggested (and Noble). But, of course, there could be something even more interesting going on! Certainly, if I were an ID proponent, this is an area of research I would be focussing on.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 20, 2013
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Jerard These change in gene expression is not Darwinian Why do you think that? As Elizabeth has said, the differences the Grant's measured in the Galapagos are heritable, so it's the direct effect of environment. We don't need "epigenetics" (a word that is fast loosing any meaning it once had) to understand that, just turn of the 20th Century quantative genetics. It's seems very unlikely that the traits would be inherited by stable trans-generational epigenetic modifications, but if they were, it would still be selection determining which "epi-allele" goes up or down in frequency.wd400
September 20, 2013
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Hi Elizabeth, everywhere I read, scientists are talking about epigenetics. It is basic biology now to know that the epigenome directs the genome, yet there is zero mention of epigenetics in current government school texts. If mention of epigenetics doesn't get into Texas textbooks now, it won't be in for another 10 years, handicapping Texans, plus students in other states who purchase the same books. Do you think it should go in now, later, never?gensci
September 20, 2013
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@8 Elisabeth B Liddle
No, really, it is not. Nobody here, surely, of all places, disputes that DNA sequences are overwhelmingly responsible for the phenotype, or that polymorphisms have phenotypic effects. You are not seriously suggesting that germline epigenetic marking is what primarily makes us different from each other, rather than the alleles we inherit?
You misread my objection to the neo-Darwinism: its fundamental problem is the random attribute of the mutation as the source of evolutionary novelty. The emphasis is on gratuitous attribute "random" (aimless, 'orthogonal' as you labeled it), not on the mutation (i.e. DNA transformation) or phenotypic role of DNA or evolution. The last three elements are not problematic for ID at all since they have close analogues in other well known instances of intelligently guided evolution, such as those of technologies, sciences, arts, fashions, etc. Systems that evolve and improve require greater intelligence to design and construct than the static, unchanging ones anyway, hence the phenomenon of biological evolution is the friend of ID, not the enemy. The actual novelty generator is a far smarter class of algorithms than the random trial and error of neo-Darwinism. These algorithms computed by the cellular biochemical networks (which run these algorithms) aim the genetic and epigenetic changes toward the phenotypic objectives that yield the most favorable outcomes for the present or anticipated environments. These networks with adaptable links are the same general kind of distributed self-programming computers as the more familiar networks such as those of neurons forming the human brains. They are all mathematically modeled by neural networks which are general computers (they can compute anything that is mathematically computable). Their links adapt locally without need for supervision by an external oracle (to guide them to some higher level objectives), merely seeking to optimize their local net {rewards - punishments} signals. Such systems spontaneously develop (see an earlier post on how they do that and its followup) and run a common type of anticipatory algorithm for such optimization, consisting of internal model of their environment, which includes the self-actor (the system itself) as well as the model-actors of other networks in the environment as the components of the internal model. Then they run this internal model with all its actors forward in model time, play out different admissible moves by the self-actor and evaluate the resulting future net {rewards-punishments} on the network, then select the highest scoring actions by the self-actor as the one to execute in the actual environment (that implements the so-called "free will" endowed by the creator to its creatures). Hence, this common algorithm works like a chess player thinking ahead about the next move, by playing out different legal moves in the mental model of the current position, then possible opponent's responses to each, then own responses to those,... several moves ahead (even dozen or more by stronger players), evaluating each final ('terminal') position and choosing the best one to make on the real chess board. In the above context, the rising appreciation and understanding of the role of epigenetic mechanisms in the operation of the biochemical networks merely adds another computational layer, rendering the neo-Darwinian "random" trial and error algorithm seem ever more naive and archaic, an irrelevant relic of the 19th century. Unfortunately, the loudest ID advocates are presently either from the softer disciplines (lawyers, philosophers of science, theologians, etc) or those from hard science but religiously overecommitted to certain ancient scriptures, who are doing disservice to the ID perspective by needlessly shifting the debate to the nebulous "conscious" intelligence (a bottomless tarpit that has drowned countless philosophers over the last 2-3 millennia). What they need to do to make their valuable observations and insights gain the traction as the seed for genuine natural science is to rephrase the "conscious" intelligence talk into the computational and algorithmic language which is what it comes down to when logically followed through. For this reason, the most effective ID proponents, unwitting and unwilling allies as they may be, are actually James Shapiro and the folks at Santa Fe Institute developing "Complexity Science" last couple decades. What is already happening (and what your own posts reflect) is that neo-Darwinists are hurriedly morphing their story toward the latter developments, adopting them as their own (even though they dismissed and fought them as conjectures throughout decades) and are just about ready to declare, yeah, that's what we were always saying, while quietly dethroning the "random" attribute of the mutation as the source of evolutionary novelty, eventually dropping it altogether. In the meantime, the present style ID will likely continue drowning in its own self-inflicted 'consciousness talk' tarpit for another few millennia.nightlight
September 20, 2013
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Jerry
My guess is that some or a lot of examples of evolution have not been evolution but examples of change in gene expression. Darwin’s finches being probably one. These change in gene expression is not Darwinian and should not be considered as evolution. The end result may be that Darwin’s ideas would be trivialized even more than they have been in recent years. Maybe that is what they are afraid of.
Actually my "I agree" was only to your first sentence. Certainly the changes in Darwin's finches were changes to gene expression, and expression of at least one gene governing beak length has been identified (BMP4). But it is far more likely that the difference in gene expression was due to alleles in regulatory sequences than germline epigenetic marking, although that is of course possible. However, it is contra-indicated by the Grants' work on the family trees of the finches. Beak size in chicks was strongly determined by beak-size in parents, even though the environment was common to all finches. An epigenetic explanation would be much less parsimonious than a genetic one, expecially given that we know that alleles of regulatory genes do produce marked phenotypic effects.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 20, 2013
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...Sorry. I forgot to comment on the 'kids won't understand' epigenetics - humm., It is pretty mind blowing when you really sit down and think about it all. But, that's because we are stuck in the old paradigm. Personally, I think kids will absolutely get it and be saying - 'sure that's obvious - how else would a caterpillar change into a beautiful butterfly?' It's just another excuse to try and save face, because epigenetics alone blows Darwinian evolution right out of the water.cosmicrabbit
September 20, 2013
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