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Is the view that there is a God little more than a poorly supported, culturally induced commonplace notion?

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Yesterday, I highlighted a case in Texas in which a School-level Critical Thinking Curriculum has been manipulated to set an assignment (in a section for 20 points) gives a question requiring the answer that “There is a God” is not fact or credible view but a cultural commonplace, poorly supported and dubious assertion that apparently students felt was effectively equivalent to “myth.”

Documents:

God_myth_sch_test

Fox26_God_myth_20pts

Today, we need to begin to address this attempt to discredit ethical theism under colours of education.

At first level, ethical theism is foundational to the charter of modern Constitutional Democracy, the US Declaration of Independence, 1776. Something that can and should be memorised by school students (and which it would be difficult indeed for educators or Courts to ban), e.g. the famous second paragraph:

>>We hold these truths to be self-evident, [cf Rom 1:18 – 21, 2:14 – 15], that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. –That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, –That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security . . . >>

So, we can immediately see that one reason for widespread belief in God is that historically it has been commonly understood that such belief is actually self evident and foundational to the moral order that underpins right and justice in the community. So much so, that as self-evident implies, it is felt (pretensions to erudition and brilliance notwithstanding) that to deny God as foundational to moral government is patently absurd; ending in some species or other of might and manipulation make ‘right.’

In short, we feel, inescapably, that we are under government of moral law, pointing to a final pillar of right and justice, God. Those who dismiss this typically make shipwreck of morality or try to avoid the foundations of morality, justice and law other than by trying to use the rhetoric of confident manner. The consequences of such moral nihilism and wisdom in one’s own eyes are all too sadly evident all around us in a morally increasingly bankrupt and chaotic, confused civilisation.

One needs not accept this as true, for the reasonable man to recognise that it is already evident that this is a responsible view not mere dubious popular sentiment. Mere disagreement on your part (even if dressed up in a lab coat) does not constitute “no evidence” or “no credible or respectable reason” on our part. Nor does mockery or sophomoric rhetoric suffice to undermine this point.

Mere decent respect for history and the common good sense of people should give pause.

Second, it is quite obvious that the curriculum takes dead aim at the Judaeo-Christian worldview foundations of our civilisation and so there is a right of reply as to the reason for the hope one has in the gospel. So, it is appropriate to point to the C1 historical anchorage of the Christian Faith, starting with the five hundred unshakeable witnesses to the resurrection of Jesus from the dead in fulfillment of centuries long prophecy in the scriptures of the Old Testament. A video is a useful 101 here:

[vimeo 17960119]

Again, mere disagreement on your part does not constitute what criticalthinking dot org terms :

>>cultural assumption: Unassessed (often implicit) belief adopted by virtue of upbringing in a society. Raised in a society, we unconsciously take on its point of view, values, beliefs, and practices. At the root of each of these are many kinds of assumptions. Not knowing that we perceive, conceive, think, and experience within assumptions we have taken in, we take ourselves to be perceiving “things as they are,” not “things as they appear from a cultural vantage point”. Becoming aware of our cultural assumptions so that we might critically examine them is a crucial dimension of critical thinking. It is, however, a dimension almost totally absent from schooling. Lip service to this ideal is common enough; a realistic emphasis is virtually unheard of. See ethnocentricity, prejudice, social contradiction.

prejudice: A judgment, belief, opinion, point of view — favorable or unfavorable — formed before the facts are known, resistant to evidence and reason, or in disregard of facts which contradict it. Self-announced prejudice is rare. Prejudice almost always exists in obscured, rationalized, socially validated, functional forms. It enables people to sleep peacefully at night even while flagrantly abusing the rights of others. It enables people to get more of what they want, or to get it more easily. It is often sanctioned with a superabundance of pomp and self-righteousness.

Unless we recognize these powerful tendencies toward selfish thought in our social institutions, even in what appear to be lofty actions and moralistic rhetoric, we will not face squarely the problem of prejudice in human thought and action. Uncritical and selfishly critical thought are often prejudiced.

Most instruction in schools today, because students do not think their way to what they accept as true, tends to give students prejudices rather than knowledge. For example, partly as a result of schooling, people often accept as authorities those who liberally sprinkle their statements with numbers and intellectual-sounding language, however irrational or unjust their positions. This prejudice toward psuedo-authority impedes rational assessment. See insight, knowledge>>

. . . on our part.

In the words of the Apostle Peter c 65 AD as he awaited unjust execution at the hands of Nero Caesar on the false accusation of treasonous arson against Rome on the night of July 18, 64 AD:

>>2 Pet 1:3 I think it right, as long as I am in this body,[h] to stir you up by way of reminder, 14 since I know that the putting off of my body will be soon, as our Lord Jesus Christ made clear to me. 15 And I will make every effort so that after my departure you may be able at any time to recall these things.

16 For we did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty . . . .

19 And we have the prophetic word more fully confirmed, to which you will do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts, 20 knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone’s own interpretation. 21 For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.>>

I hardly need to add that millions down through the ages and today jointly testify to and manifest the life transforming consequences of encounter with the Living God through penitent trust in the risen Christ.

Where, again, disagreement on your part does not constitute absence of evidence on our part of personal knowledge of God through living encounter with the risen Lord and Saviour Jesus of Nazareth, the Christ. If just one of these millions testifies truly, that is enough. And in fact there are literally millions of credible witnesses, who do not manifest the characteristically disintegrative signs of delusion.

(Nor, is it appropriate to spring an implicit, highly tendentious denunciation of the Christian worldview on twelve year olds in a classroom while using state power to lock out the right of reply by responsible and informed representatives of this major tradition. As can be seen from the common abuse of the clause of the 1st Amdt of the US Constitution that, properly understood on its history means that there is to be no State Church of the USA, via the dubious radically secularist doctrine separation of church and state, that then gives de facto establishment to the lab coat clad anti-church of evolutionary materialist scientism.)

Thirdly, we now need to begin to think in worldview terms, and to understand that  worldviews stand on finitely remote first plausibles that by virtue of our circumstances must be finitely remote, should be factually adequate, logically and dynamically coherent, should not unduly beg key questions and should be explanatorily adequate — not simplistic and not an ad hoc patchwork, but powerful, balanced and elegant.

It cannot be turtles all the way down:

"Turtles, all the way down . . . " vs a root cause
“Turtles, all the way down . . . ” vs a root cause

And so, we see the alternatives:

A summary of why we end up with foundations for our worldviews, whether or not we would phrase the matter that way}
A summary of why we end up with foundations for our worldviews, whether or not we would phrase the matter that way}

In this context, we all have finitely remote faith points that should be assessed on comparative difficulties, rather than being led to make snap dismissals of core propositions as popular but ill-founded notions.

Of course, a full-orbed assessment of worldviews and options, even at 101 level is beyond the typical twelve year old. That is part of why this should never have been put in such a curriculum. Indeed, such attempts will backfire, forcing church leaders to indoctrinate youngsters in the rhetoric of retort by programmed talking point backed up by instructions on referral to legal swat teams.

And again, disagreement on your part with worldview first plausibles of ethical theism in the Judaeo-Christian tradition on our part does not give reasonable grounds for holding that we have “no evidence” or no good reason.

So, already, it is quite evident that such ethical theism is not a mere culturally propagated commonplace, ill supported notion.

Okay, this is enough for a first bite at the issue. More to follow in coming days. END

Comments
I warned about hijacking threads of discussion, took time to give pointers of correction and even link where there are discussions of this sort of sophomoric parody, e.g. http://www.truefreethinker.com/articles/flying-spaghetti-monster-invisible-pink-unicorns-et-al-part-2-4 (as in: this sort of foolishness has long since been corrected, that which is made of parts is essentially composite thus contingent and cannot be a necessary being [a major feature of the idea of God in relevant Systematic Theology and Philosophy of Religion, both significant academic disciplines that the mocking objectors were pointed to but willfully ignored showing malicious threadjacking intent and incorrigibility in the face of an important issue on the table], and to try to redefine components as also not components on silly excuses of comparison to the necessary analogical use of language to address the abstract is not only to abuse language shamelessly but to inject outright contradictions thus explosion into real meaninglessness and necessary falsification of the FSM parody . . . but above those who should know better are only too willing to push the rhetoric of mockery at the cost of their own integrity). I stated that as the focal topic is of a certain importance, carry discussion elsewhere if that is wanted so desperately. To no avail, as I see after coming back hours later. It is clear that we are not dealing with the reasonable but trollish misconduct. Indeed including thinly veiled vulgarities for a thread explicitly about 12 year old children and abuse of the privilege of curriculum development and implementation -- a mark of the grossest contempt and disrespect. Now, it is a longstanding education principle that the disruptive should not be allowed to derail those who are there for genuine learning. I will now terminate in-thread discussion until this series reaches a culminating point, also flagging the reason, insistent trollish misconduct. KF, thread owner.kairosfocus
December 1, 2015
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JJ: "He can do it all he wants. Just like you can come back on this forum with lots of sock accounts but it doesn’t help you." You can keep making this claim if you want. I guess that lying is something you do without any sense of guilt. Thankfully, most of us are not sociopaths.joehalfgallon
December 1, 2015
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“Jack, off of these points…” “And Jack, off of these ideas…” JHG aka William Spearshake etc said "Too subtle? Do you think he got the point?" He can do it all he wants but it is not really going to help the walking contradiction. Just like you can come back on this forum with lots of sock accounts but it doesn't help you. You have more socks than Walmart, that doesn't help you here though. hahahaJack Jones
December 1, 2015
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Larry said "Now Jack, off to the more serious point. If yaschobob was seeking a substantive critique and rebuttal of the FSM — yet one that would not apply as well to a “God” — then that critique/rebuttal has not come, at least to yaschobob’s satisfaction." Because he is not happy then that does not entail that he has not been rebutted. He has to redefine his argument in terms of that which he is arguing against in trying to refute what he is arguing against. It is self defeating. You wouldn't understand that. It shows thew weakness of his position. That a walking contradiction like you supports him is hardly of any use. "Jack, off of these points we might see FSM in the same vein as Russell’s teapot or the “Evil God” concept of Stephen Law (I think it’s his argument). " The vein is that it is a failed sophomoric argument. Hey but you are welcome to endorse it. It is funny when Atheists/Materialists take positions that they do not hold in order to try and argue against something they do not believe in, It just shows the weakness of materialism. "Are these philosophical arguments for a supreme and ideal being anything more than self-contained, self-referential conceit" Nothing wrong with Philosophy, Philosophy means a love of wisdom, You could try and dismiss philosophy because you may hate logic and wisdom and that is why you are a walking contradiction. Your faith however is not consistent with either logic or science. Now.....if you want to believe in never ending natural events prior to this time then you are most welcome, Your faith in the tautological oxymoron of "infinite finiteness" is neither based on logic or science. Now...Why are you such a walking contradiction Larry?Jack Jones
December 1, 2015
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"Jack, off of these points..." "And Jack, off of these ideas..." Too subtle? Do you think he got the point?joehalfgallon
December 1, 2015
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Jack, off of your earlier comment @103: I appreciate your tolerance of my being a walking contradiction! Now Jack, off to the more serious point. If yaschobob was seeking a substantive critique and rebuttal of the FSM -- yet one that would not apply as well to a "God" -- then that critique/rebuttal has not come, at least to yaschobob's satisfaction. Jack, off of these points we might see FSM in the same vein as Russell's teapot or the "Evil God" concept of Stephen Law (I think it's his argument). The shaft and thrust of these arguments have an earlier echo in the critique of Anselm's Ontological Argument, where it was shown that the Argument could be made as well about the perfect island and such. And Jack, off of these ideas the realization should sink in like a tea bag dunking repeatedly in an open cup of waiting, warm water: Are these philosophical arguments for a supreme and ideal being anything more than self-contained, self-referential conceit?LarTanner
December 1, 2015
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Larry@101 "Thanks for explaining what people ‘should’ or ‘should not’ talk about." You can be a walking contradiction if you want to be. I will point out your inconsistency though. "The point was that there was a reasonable usage of “spaghetti” to denote something timeless, space-less, and immaterial." As a materialist/Atheist then you don't believe in a timeless, space-less immaterial being that created the universe. So if you think being a walking contradiction makes you reasonable then go ahead. "I know you don’t think I should use such a term as mind, but there it is anyway." You can be a walking contradiction then that is up to you Larry. I will point it out though. Why are you such a walking contradiction Larry?Jack Jones
December 1, 2015
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TrollAndAHalf:
As with Christianity, there are stlll many questions to be answered.
So? Go away troll.Mung
December 1, 2015
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As materialists then you really shouldn’t be talking about conceiving at all.
Thanks for explaining what people 'should' or 'should not' talk about. You seemed to understand my sentences, however, and that's the important thing. The point was that there was a reasonable usage of "spaghetti" to denote something timeless, space-less, and immaterial. Maybe yaschobob could have helped you by using capital-S "Spaghetti," as some capitalize the "g" in God to indicate not a god embodied in wood or flesh but one apprehended in the mind. I know you don't think I should use such a term as mind, but there it is anyway.LarTanner
December 1, 2015
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There are a few ultimate questions still to be answered with respect to the FSM. 1) el dente or well cooked? 2) salt in the water or not? 3) Parmesan or naked? 4) rinse with cold water, or hot? As with Christianity, there are stlll many questions to be answered.joehalfgallon
December 1, 2015
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@98 Lartanner "As mere mortals, we cannot conceive" con·ceive k?n?s?v/ verb "form or devise (a plan or idea) in the mind" Nobody has seen your mind and ideas in the mind cannot be seen either, As materialists then you really shouldn't be talking about conceiving at all.Jack Jones
December 1, 2015
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@96 - "Oh you redefined spaghetti as timeless, spaceless and immaterial, which defeats your argument against that which is timeless, spaceless and immaterial." Perhaps he was using "spaghetti" in the Aristotelian-Thomistic-classical sense, in which the term is analogic. As mere mortals, we cannot conceive the maximal spaghetti-ness of FSM, so we use our word to allow us the smallest conception of the divine attribute.LarTanner
December 1, 2015
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KF, I don't believe you can speak accurately of a "God of ethical theism" precisely because "Historical humanity has entertained many differing ideas about God/Gods across cultures and time."rhampton7
December 1, 2015
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@95 "I addressed the spurious use of “he." Because you do not like the use of a term does not entail that it is "spurious" I never used the term however, I may have quoted somebody who did in an earlier post. Furthemore, KF and Mike showed you the sense in which people use the term. "then spaghetti can be just as metaphorical. Fair is fair." Oh you redefined spaghetti as timeless, spaceless and immaterial, which defeats your argument against that which is timeless, spaceless and immaterial. The argument that the fsm is a material being failed, but then to argue that it is timeless, spaceless and immaterial fails because you are just using the term instead of God which would be timeless, spaceless and immaterial, that defeats your whole purpose. So your analogy to try and argue against a non material cause for the universe falls flat on its face. Now..... Your argument for a materialistic explanation fails. Your faith in "infinite finiteness" failed not just because it is a "tautological oxymoron" or because it is impossible to have an infinite amount of past natural events prior to now, but because you had to redefine something material in terms of that which you were arguing against. You ran out of bullets and have been repeating the same failed argument. You can keep doing it but it shows you have run out of ideas. Hey but if you want to believe in the tautological oxymoron of "infinite finitness" with your belief in a never ending series of natural events then that is up to you. How you believe we reached this moment in time with your faith of never ending natural events prior to now must be very strange indeed. But you are welcome to have faith in the tautological oxymoron of "infinite finiteness" Why do you hold such a funny belief?Jack Jones
December 1, 2015
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>Enough has been pointed out on FSM for a serious person to see that sophomoric mockery and parodies fail bigtime. List them then. The one you already listed (spaceless and timeless) doesn't apply, because FSM is the just pasta incarnation of the deity. The deity came before the pasta. The TFT link you linked to makes this fallacy as well: "it raises an even bigger problem than it solves namely: who spaghettied the spaghetti?" Again, this fails because like how your god created human bodies and then used a human body to present itself, our god created pasta and then used pasta to present itself. I'm sorry, but this critique of FSM doesn't really hold up. It's ignorant of the FSM texts. I'd be willing to read more "criticisms", but in general, if the first point the author tries to make is completely wrong, I stop reading the rest. I have to go for now, but will return in a few hours. If you have more criticisms against FSM, I'd like to discuss them in a non-insulting manner. @JJ I addressed the spurious use of "he." If it's literal, then God is not spaceless and timeless. If it's not literal and metaphorical, then spaghetti can be just as metaphorical. Fair is fair.yaschobob
December 1, 2015
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The funny thing is, although atheists don’t actually believe in the FSM, that without God atheists are forced to believe that the FSM, as well as fluffy pink unicorns, are actually real in some universe:
Why Most Atheists Believe in Pink Unicorns – May 2014 Excerpt: Given an infinite amount of time, anything that is logically possible(11) will eventually happen. So, given an infinite number of universes being created in (presumably) an infinite amount of time, you are not only guaranteed to get your universe but every other possible universe. This means that every conceivable universe exists, from ones that consist of nothing but a giant black hole, to ones that are just like ours and where someone just like you is reading a blog post just like this, except it’s titled: “Why most atheists believe in blue unicorns.” By now I’m sure you know where I’m going with this, but I’ll say it anyway. Since we know that horses are possible, and that pink animals are possible, and that horned animals are possible, then there is no logical reason why pink unicorns are not possible entities. Ergo, if infinite universes exist, then pink unicorns must necessarily exist. For an atheist to appeal to multiverse theory to deny the need of a designer infers that he believes in that theory more than a theistically suggestive single universe. And to believe in the multiverse means that one is saddled with everything that goes with it, like pink unicorns. In fact, they not only believe in pink unicorns, but that someone just like them is riding on one at this very moment, and who believes that elephants, giraffes, and zebra are merely childish fairytales. Postscript While it may be amusing to imagine atheists riding pink unicorns, it should be noted that the belief in them does not logically invalidate atheism. There theoretically could be multiple universes and there theoretically could be pink unicorns. However, there is a more substantial problem for the atheist if he wants to believe in them and he wants to remain an atheist. Since, as I said, anything can happen in the realm of infinities, one of those possibilities is the production of a being of vast intelligence and power. Such a being would be as a god to those like us, and could perhaps breach the boundaries of the multiverse to, in fact, be a “god” to this universe. This being might even have the means to create its own universe and embody the very description of the God of Christianity (or any other religion that the atheist otherwise rejects). It seems the atheist, in affirming the multiverse in order to avoid the problem of fine-tuning, finds himself on the horns of a dilemma. The further irony is that somewhere, in the great wide world of infinities, the atheist’s doppelganger is going to war against an army of theists riding on the horns of a great pink beast known to his tribesman as “The Saddlehorn Dilemma.” https://pspruett.wordpress.com/2014/05/12/why-most-atheists-believe-in-pink-unicorns/ Pink Fluffy Unicorns Dancing On Rainbows – music https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-xWhG4UU_Y
The epistemological failure inherent in atheistic materialism is further borne out by the fine turned 1 in 10^10^123 initial state of entropy for the universe:
Multiverse and the Design Argument - William Lane Craig Excerpt: Roger Penrose of Oxford University has calculated that the odds of our universe’s low entropy condition obtaining by chance alone are on the order of 1 in 10^10(123), an inconceivable number. If our universe were but one member of a multiverse of randomly ordered worlds, then it is vastly more probable that we should be observing a much smaller universe. For example, the odds of our solar system’s being formed instantly by the random collision of particles is about 1 in 10^10(60), a vast number, but inconceivably smaller than 1 in 10^10(123). (Penrose calls it “utter chicken feed” by comparison [The Road to Reality (Knopf, 2005), pp. 762-5]). Or again, if our universe is but one member of a multiverse, then we ought to be observing highly extraordinary events, like horses’ popping into and out of existence by random collisions, or perpetual motion machines, since these are vastly more probable than all of nature’s constants and quantities’ falling by chance into the virtually infinitesimal life-permitting range. Observable universes like those strange worlds are simply much more plenteous in the ensemble of universes than worlds like ours and, therefore, ought to be observed by us if the universe were but a random member of a multiverse of worlds. Since we do not have such observations, that fact strongly disconfirms the multiverse hypothesis. On naturalism, at least, it is therefore highly probable that there is no multiverse. — Penrose puts it bluntly “these world ensemble hypothesis are worse than useless in explaining the anthropic fine-tuning of the universe”. http://www.reasonablefaith.org/multiverse-and-the-design-argument Does a Multiverse Explain the Fine Tuning of the Universe? - Dr. Craig (observer selection effect vs. Boltzmann Brains) - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pb9aXduPfuA Big Brain Theory: Have Cosmologists Lost Theirs? - January 2008 Excerpt: it’s hard for nature to make a whole universe. It’s much easier to make fragments of one, like planets, yourself maybe in a spacesuit or even — in the most absurd and troubling example — a naked brain floating in space.,, Alan Guth, a cosmologist at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology,,, pointed out that some calculations result in an infinite number of free-floating brains for every normal brain, making it “infinitely unlikely for us to be normal brains.” Nature tends to do what is easiest, from the standpoint of energy and probability. And so these fragments — in particular the brains — would appear far more frequently than real full-fledged universes, or than us.,, http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/15/science/15brain.html?_r=3&pagewanted=1&8dpc A Matter of Considerable Gravity: On the Purported Detection of Gravitational Waves and Cosmic Inflation - Bruce Gordon - April 4, 2014 Excerpt: Thirdly, at least two paradoxes result from the inflationary multiverse proposal that suggest our place in such a multiverse must be very special: the "Boltzmann Brain Paradox" and the "Youngness Paradox." In brief, if the inflationary mechanism is autonomously operative in a way that generates a multiverse, then with probability indistinguishable from one (i.e., virtual necessity) the typical observer in such a multiverse is an evanescent thermal fluctuation with memories of a past that never existed (a Boltzmann brain) rather than an observer of the sort we take ourselves to be. Alternatively, by a second measure, post-inflationary universes should overwhelmingly have just been formed, which means that our existence in an old universe like our own has a probability that is effectively zero (i.e., it's nigh impossible). So if our universe existed as part of such a multiverse, it would not be at all typical, but rather infinitely improbable (fine-tuned) with respect to its age and compatibility with stable life-forms. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2014/04/a_matter_of_con084001.html
Moreover, as if the epistemological failure inherent in the atheistic conjecture of multiverses was not enough by itself to refute atheistic materialism, the atheistic materialists also, in their denial of God, end up literally 'loosing their minds':
"that “You”, your joys and your sorrows, your memories and your ambitions, your sense of personal identity and free will, are in fact no more than the behaviour of a vast assembly of nerve cells and their associated molecules. As Lewis Carroll’s Alice might have phrased: “You’re nothing but a pack of neurons.” This hypothesis is so alien to the ideas of most people today that it can truly be called astonishing.” Francis Crick - "The Astonishing Hypothesis" 1994 "What you’re doing is simply instantiating a self: the program run by your neurons which you feel is “you.”" Jerry Coyne The Confidence of Jerry Coyne - January 6, 2014 Excerpt: But then halfway through this peroration, we have as an aside the confession that yes, okay, it’s quite possible given materialist premises that “our sense of self is a neuronal illusion.” At which point the entire edifice suddenly looks terribly wobbly — because who, exactly, is doing all of this forging and shaping and purpose-creating if Jerry Coyne, as I understand him (and I assume he understands himself) quite possibly does not actually exist at all? The theme of his argument is the crucial importance of human agency under eliminative materialism, but if under materialist premises the actual agent is quite possibly a fiction, then who exactly is this I who “reads” and “learns” and “teaches,” and why in the universe’s name should my illusory self believe Coyne’s bold proclamation that his illusory self’s purposes are somehow “real” and worthy of devotion and pursuit? (Let alone that they’re morally significant: But more on that below.) Prometheus cannot be at once unbound and unreal; the human will cannot be simultaneously triumphant and imaginary. http://douthat.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/01/06/the-confidence-of-jerry-coyne/?_r=0 “We have so much confidence in our materialist assumptions (which are assumptions, not facts) that something like free will is denied in principle. Maybe it doesn’t exist, but I don’t really know that. Either way, it doesn’t matter because if free will and consciousness are just an illusion, they are the most seamless illusions ever created. Film maker James Cameron wishes he had special effects that good.” Matthew D. Lieberman – neuroscientist – materialist – UCLA professor Sam Harris's Free Will: The Medial Pre-Frontal Cortex Did It - Martin Cothran - November 9, 2012 Excerpt: There is something ironic about the position of thinkers like Harris on issues like this: they claim that their position is the result of the irresistible necessity of logic (in fact, they pride themselves on their logic). Their belief is the consequent, in a ground/consequent relation between their evidence and their conclusion. But their very stated position is that any mental state -- including their position on this issue -- is the effect of a physical, not logical cause. By their own logic, it isn't logic that demands their assent to the claim that free will is an illusion, but the prior chemical state of their brains. The only condition under which we could possibly find their argument convincing is if they are not true. The claim that free will is an illusion requires the possibility that minds have the freedom to assent to a logical argument, a freedom denied by the claim itself. It is an assent that must, in order to remain logical and not physiological, presume a perspective outside the physical order. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/11/sam_harriss_fre066221.html (1) rationality implies a thinker in control of thoughts. (2) under materialism a thinker is an effect caused by processes in the brain. (3) in order for materialism to ground rationality a thinker (an effect) must control processes in the brain (a cause). (1)&(2) (4) no effect can control its cause. Therefore materialism cannot ground rationality. per Box UD
Thus the atheist, in denying God, and thus denying his own mind and free will, ends up forsaking rationality altogether.bornagain
December 1, 2015
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William's sock account said "The adults are trying to talk." Indeed they are, You should go and play with your toys because you are not big enough to talk with the adults.Jack Jones
December 1, 2015
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JJ, shhh. The adults are trying to talk.joehalfgallon
December 1, 2015
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@90 JHG aka William Spearshake aka brian etc says "I don’t think “correction” means what you think it means. Y disagrees with your argument. Your opinion is not a correction, it remains an opinion." We are not talking about disagreement about an argument because the thing being attacked was not being argued by KF. It was a strawman. Because you do not recognize it does not mean it wasn't a correction William.Jack Jones
December 1, 2015
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KF: "Y, you are now setting up and knocking over strawmen in the teeth of correction." I don't think "correction" means what you think it means. Y disagrees with your argument. Your opinion is not a correction, it remains an opinion. " It seems you need to humble yourself enough and get enough respect for others to take time to properly understand what ethical theists mean by God." Respect is a two-way street KF. It is something you earn, not something you are entitled to. You will not get respect when you simply dismiss those who disagree with you as trolls, or by condescending to everyone you disagree with. But, to get back on topic. I have read a lot about the controversy surrounding this school and the teacher. Do I think that the lesson was misguided? Yes. Do I think that it was an intentional effort to undermine religion? No. It was a lesson on critical thinking. The answer to "God exists" can not be "fact". It can only be "Opinion", or possibly "Common Assertion". I know that you disagree with this, but that, again, is opinion. Opinions can be correct, but how do you prove that God is fact? You can't. As such, her existance remains something less than fact. The teacher's mistake was in mentioning God in a public school, an area that is supposed to be religiously neutral. And she has been reprimanded. A good Christian would forgive her poor judgment. Why can't you?joehalfgallon
December 1, 2015
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Y, you are now spamming the thread with foolishness in the teeth of cogent correction you refuse to heed. And in the face of a suggestion that if you want a discussion on matters at best tangential to the thread once they have gone beyond a cycle or two of response. Enough has been pointed out on FSM for a serious person to see that sophomoric mockery and parodies fail bigtime. (U/D: For more kindly cf here in context: http://www.truefreethinker.com/articles/flying-spaghetti-monster-invisible-pink-unicorns-et-al-part-2-4 ) If you are serious, you have been directed to a list of topics where you need to do some fairly serious worldviews repair and remedial work. What it looks like now is setting up and knocking down strawmen for purposes of distractive mockery over and over again, often the very same strawmen. That is not a sign of a serious interlocutor. Do you want us to begin to treat you as a troll? KFkairosfocus
December 1, 2015
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@85 "Hey, I’m just going by what you said when you called god “he." You attributed words to me in comment 76 that I did not say. You said "@76 Next, you seem to now want something to be/not be a “he” to suit your rhetorical purposes, a mark of an argument riddled with ad hoc and contradictory assertions. " I made no such comment in 76. @69 "You called god a “He." No I didn't. However mike and KF more than adequately dealt with your problem with the usage of that term. KF and Mike more than adequately dealt with your objection about the use of the term "He" however and you are doubling down. Still waiting for you to show in comment 76 where I said what you claim. "The FSM books actually address how it became made of spaghetti. It existed before spaghetti, but decided it wanted to create pasta, so it made a pasta body for it to occupy. Then, since it wanted people to worship it, sent prophets to Earth to spread the Gospel of the Pasta. We know this is true because man-kind makes and eats pasta, which is exactly what it wanted." That is called argument ad nauseam, Arguing a failed argument that we have already debunked. You argued a failed argument and are arguing ad nauseum which is a logical fallacy. You attributed words to me on comment 76 that I never made. You have a problem with the use of the term "he" Both Mike and KF more than adequately dealt with that but you seem to think ignoring and arguing ad nauseum is a replacement for your failed argument. You need to come back with something better if you want to be taken seriously. If you have to argue ad nauseam and strawman and make up things that were not said by me which you have done, then that just shows the failure of your position. Still waiting for you to come up with something better than your argument ad nauseum with the fsm. Try again.Jack Jones
December 1, 2015
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@mike exactly, so "he" isn't meant to be taken literally, thus, it is acceptable to use literary devices to refer to the creator in such a way that is appeasing to the masses. In either capacity, spaghetti is synonymous with he.yaschobob
December 1, 2015
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KF, I looks like this thread has exposed the irrational basis of Materialistic Atheism big time -- the hatred is palpable coming from the FSM (I had to look it up) crowd towards the world of Biblical faith. I would like to return to what I think was the focus of your OP -- the explicit and underlying Christian faith of the founders of this nation -- and for many years following, the faith that guided this "shining city on a hill." I've been noticing a pair of parallel tracks: 1) The track that purposefully ignores and perverts the faith based history of science and pretends that science began with the birth of one Charles Darwin, or something to that effect. Truth is that there would be no modern science without those early giants of faith that took their inspiration from the belief that the ordered intelligibility of nature and the universe was placed there by the God of the Bible, and they set out to discover and understand that intelligibility . The bed rock foundation of science is the Bible -- no, we don't teach algebra, chemistry or physics from the Bible, but the bed rock inspiration of those disciplines is from faith. 2)The second track, and the one you speak of so eloquently, is the faith based foundation of this nation called the United States of America. The Atheists such as the FSM crowd and those at places such as NCSE purposefully ignore and pervert the faith based history of this nation, and pretend that the history of this nation began in the early 1900s when again, Mr. Darwin showed the world the Flying Spaghetti Monster as the true foundation of the nation. As in the case of the history of science, The bed rock foundation of the Constitution and this nation is the Bible -- no, we don't permit the formal establishment of a state religion, but the bed rock inspiration of the Constitution and this nation is from faith.ayearningforpublius
December 1, 2015
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@JJ Hey, I'm just going by what you said when you called god "he." Since you're assuming "spaghetti" is meant to be 100% literal, that I must then take "he" to be 100% literal, therefor, you believe god has an X and a Y chromosome, thus, god isn't spaceless and timeless and is made of material things. The FSM books actually address how it became made of spaghetti. It existed before spaghetti, but decided it wanted to create pasta, so it made a pasta body for it to occupy. Then, since it wanted people to worship it, sent prophets to Earth to spread the Gospel of the Pasta. We know this is true because man-kind makes and eats pasta, which is exactly what it wanted.yaschobob
December 1, 2015
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yaschobob: So you admit that god has XY chromosomes and is thus a literal he (not timeless and spaceless). Neither English nor Hebrew has a neuter personal pronoun. One could use "it" in reference to God, but to most people, "it" doesn't seem to do justice to God's personal nature.mike1962
December 1, 2015
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Y, you are now setting up and knocking over strawmen in the teeth of correction. It seems you need to humble yourself enough and get enough respect for others to take time to properly understand what ethical theists mean by God. (Indeed your suggestion of chromosomes implies you still do not understand the issue of a composite being being necessarily contingent and thus in a categorically different mode of being from God.) I suggest you do a little study on the idea of God and read some basic systematic theology before further exposing your lack of relevant background. KFkairosfocus
December 1, 2015
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"So you admit that god has XY chromosomes and is thus a literal he (not timeless and spaceless)." I have made no admission of anything in the comment 76 you replied to, I am asking you to show me where I said anything about God not being a He in comment 76. I made no comment about it. Where in comment 76 did I say the words you attributed? try again.Jack Jones
December 1, 2015
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yaschobob: Scientifically, that’s a contradiction. It's not a contradiction, it is simply not scientific. Science is a useful method humans have devised to make models and predictions based on those models. But science can't tell us everything. I can crack open a nut, eat the contents, show you the shell later, but cannot prove scientifically the shell ever contained what I claim I ate. You can have no scientifically based access to the truth the way I do about that fact. Your judgement of my credibility will have to be based on non-falsifiable, non-scientific criteria. You cannot know the truth of it scientifically. 1) Absolutely. 2) People hallucinate and make mistakes. All. The. Time. 3) Experiments must be repeatable for all scientists. And sometimes people experience non-repeatable things and accurately relate the experience. In which case, the scientific method is of no assistance. If someone were to make a serious claim about witnessing the FSM, one might investigate various things in order to ascertain the credibility of the witness. For example, do they seem sane in all areas of their life? Were there multiple witnesses experiencing the same thing concurrently? Are there any likely motives, such as financial, that might tain their witness? Sure, you can adopt the position that you simply won't accept anything whatsoever that is not subject to scientific falsification. But you won't last long in the world. There are truths that you cannot reach via scientific inference. If you are unsure if you let the cat outside, a scientific inference cannot help you. You have to get up and go look for the cat. Or ask someone who may have witnessed it.mike1962
December 1, 2015
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@JJ So you admit that god has XY chromosomes and is thus a literal he (not timeless and spaceless). Got it.yaschobob
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