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Judge Jones Discussed at 3quarksdaily

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In light of Judge Jones coming to Southern Methodist University today and tomorrow, for what seems to be an unbalanced discussion of ID, I thought I would add some clarity to the affair with these remarks by Nick Smyth  from the blog 3quarksdaily pertaining to Jones’s poor reasoning in his 2005 Kitzmiller decision as to what constitutes science:

For any formal definition of science, it either excludes too much, or includes too much, or both. It is enough to say that today, even those writing anti-pseudoscience manifestos concede that it is not possible to give a complete definition of what constitutes science or pseudoscience. Rather, they tend to revert to weak, vague and totally indefensible “ballpark” definitions that are designed to exclude specific targets. Judge Jones’ 2005 ruling in the Kitzmiller creationism case is a recent example:

ID [Intelligent Design] fails on three different levels, any one of which is sufficient to preclude a determination that ID is science. They are: (1) ID violates the centuries-old ground rules of science by invoking and permitting supernatural causation; (2) the argument of irreducible complexity, central to ID, employs the same flawed and illogical contrived dualism that doomed creation science in the 1980’s; and (3) ID’s negative attacks on evolution have been refuted by the scientific community. (Jones 2005, 64)

It’s hard to properly describe how bad this ruling was, how incredibly vulnerable it is to logical and factual attack.

Take, for example, the second and third requirement. If we banish everyone who has either (2) seriously employed a false argument, or (3) has had some position refuted, it’s hard to imagine that there will be many scientists left to speak of. These requirements are patently absurd.

The first requirement doesn’t fare much better, for its meaning turns on the definition of “natural”, and to my knowledge no-one has been able to define this term meaningfully without resorting to the claim that “nature” is the stuff that natural science talks about. Circularity looms.

However, even if we can define these terms responsibly, this “ground rule” is of questionable historical validity. For example, we are going to have to explain why Newton’s acceptance of alchemical principles and Kepler’s devout mysticism don’t disqualify them as scientists.

This is a serious problem. It’s fine to talk about science in a loose and squishy sense, as a historical phenomenon or as a diverse, loosely related set of practises or what have you, but once you start denying someone else social and political power on the grounds that you are scientific and they are not, you’d better have more to say than simply “your theory is supernatural”. Otherwise, you will quickly be reduced to claiming that you just know science when you see it, and well, isn’t that just the sort of maddening claim that those pesky “pseudoscientists” love to make?

by Nick Smyth
Comments
ellazimm [from 57} - “You cannot prove an historical event. You can only rely on what the evidence infers.” - But . . . . that’s what you all are asking ToE to do!! I am so confused!! And in that confusion, I think you've hit the nail on the head as to the great flaw in 'intelligent design'! In short, unless proponents of ToE can PROVE evolution (which can never be done) Intelligent Design is always the default answer! How ridiculous is that?!Ritchie
September 27, 2009
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"You cannot prove an historical event. You can only rely on what the evidence infers." But . . . . that's what you all are asking ToE to do!! I am so confused!! Okay, if ID currently has no paradigm to study the designers processes is someone working on that? I would!! How about the when question? I would think THAT would be an easier question to examine? Surely someone must have come up with a hypothesis regarding that by now? I'm guessing a lot of ID proponents would say the Cambrian Explosion is a very suspicious time frame. But even that stretches over millions of years. Does the designer work slowly or immediately? I'm just trying to get ID!! I understand the fundamental principle: that based on personal experience some things are better explained by the intervention of an intelligent designer. AND . . . then what? What's next? There has to be something after that!! The scientists working on evolution research are trying to find the details of how it all happened. Surely the ID researchers are doing the same. Yeah?ellazimm
September 27, 2009
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---Adel: "What a strange assertion. How could anyone possibly know the limit of what might be learned about a putative designer?" I speak only of what science can do at the moment. I have no idea about ID's potential to learn more. All I know is that, at present, ID has no paradigms to study the designers processes. For my part, I think it was quite a task just to come up with SCI and IR. ---"And even more curious is the complacency with which you accept such an idea of a limit to what can be learned by science." No complacency here. As far as I am concerned, ID should shoot for the moon. On the other hand, some genius will have to come along and develop the right paradigm to learn more about the creator's methods. I have no idea whether that is possible or not, and neither does anyone else. ID is not like Darwinism. It doesn't presume to know what it really doesn't know. ----Let the evidence lead where it may, indeed. Can I take that to mean that you now disavow the methodological naturalism espoused by your comrades, which was designed specifically to forbid design inferences in the name of science?StephenB
September 26, 2009
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----ellazimm, “Stephen: I wasn’t looking for loopholes or asking for clarification. I was just trying to find verifiable quotes from Dr Dembski that I thought were pertinent. I do find it confusing that evolution proponents are asked for a step-by-step explanation but ID excuses itself from that to be . . . a double standard if both approaches are science but it wasn’t my intention to dredge that up at this time.” Pertinent to what? The issue is that ID science has nothing to do with the “supernatural.” Your comments were not pertinent to that fact. In any case, it’s not a double standard. Darwinists claim to know the process, yet they cannot describe its steps, which means that they do not know the process at all. ID already knows that the process has not yet been established and doesn’t claim otherwise. Besides the present subject matter has to do with a misguided judge who said ID isn’t science because it is “tied to the supernatural.” ---"Aren’t you curious? [about mechanisms] I don’t believe you can just stop and not ask about it!! And what’s the harm in asking? I’ve been told time and time again that ID does not deal with that but . . . WHY NOT?? How can there be anything off limits in science???” I don't think anything is off limit to scientists. The point is that ID paradigms are designed for a specific purpose and their purpose is not to study mechanisms. Why would ID scientists seek to please Darwinists while they are doing their research? If some new genius comes along and develops a paradigm that captures the creator's processes, that's fine with me. ----“And, I have to say, I’ve always found it disingenuous that ID asks evolution proponents to produce an step-by-step explanation when they don’t expect to be held to the same standard. Why? What is the explanation? Just because an intelligent designer intervened doesn’t mean you can’t ask question about that designer’s methods and timing . . . . does it? Again, ID doesn’t claim to know the process, Darwinists do. So it is they who are obliged to explain the steps involved in the process. ID makes a much more modest claim. One the one hand, you want ID to advance from its present agenda and study the supernatural; on the other hand, you no doubt sympathize with Dover devotees who claim ID is already studying the supernatural. Make up your mind.StephenB
September 26, 2009
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ellazimm, "I do find it confusing that evolution proponents are asked for a step-by-step explanation but ID excuses itself from that to be . . . a double standard if both approaches are science but it wasn’t my intention to dredge that up at this time." Why should this be confusing? ID and ToE are suggesting very different processes. Why should you expect that ID should explain the processes in the same way as ID proponents expect from ToE? Darwinian ToE makes specific claims about how complex biological organisms adapted and developed through purely natural process, which Darwinists are vague in accounting for. Darwinian ToE furthermore relies largely on a series of fossils, whose collective pattern is highly interpretive, resulting in highly speculative conclusions. ID does not make a claim for exactly how complexity arose (although one could argue that we see complexity arise all the time in human designed machines). The claim is simply that the blind natural processes ToE suggests, cannot account for certain features; and furthermore, that such features are best explained by intentional design (as a known process) as opposed to blind purposeless natural processes (which we have really no known example of). You are looking for a certain kind of rigor where it does not nor cannot exist for either theory, because they are historical scientific theories. You cannot prove an historical event. You can only rely on what the evidence infers. I think your real confusion stems from your apparent belief that ToE is as rigorous a theory as any other non-historical, lab-tested science, and expecting ID to do the same. You need to be a little more realistic.CannuckianYankee
September 26, 2009
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No, you are pointing out that science can only get as far as the “existence” of a designer and no further.
What a strange assertion. How could anyone possibly know the limit of what might be learned about a putative designer? And even more curious is the complacency with which you accept such an idea of a limit to what can be learned by science. Let the evidence lead where it may, indeed.Adel DiBagno
September 26, 2009
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And, I have to say, I've always found it disingenuous that ID asks evolution proponents to produce an step-by-step explanation when they don't expect to be held to the same standard. Why? What is the explanation? Just because an intelligent designer intervened doesn't mean you can't ask question about that designer's methods and timing . . . . does it? I am so confused!!ellazimm
September 26, 2009
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Stephen: I wasn't looking for loopholes or asking for clarification. I was just trying to find verifiable quotes from Dr Dembski that I thought were pertinent. I do find it confusing that evolution proponents are asked for a step-by-step explanation but ID excuses itself from that to be . . . a double standard if both approaches are science but it wasn't my intention to dredge that up at this time. But I do wonder: why doesn't ID need to consider mechanisms? I mean . . . don't you want to know? Aren't you curious? I don't believe you can just stop and not ask about it!! And what's the harm in asking? I've been told time and time again that ID does not deal with that but . . . WHY NOT?? How can there be anything off limits in science???ellazimm
September 26, 2009
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---Dembski: “[D]esign theorists recognize that the nature, moral character and purposes of this intelligence lie beyond the remit of science.” ---racingiron: "If you can’t use science (or even imagine it being used) to directly investigate something, aren’t you conceding that it is supernatural?" No, you are pointing out that science can only get as far as the "existence" of a designer and no further. You can't discover the designer's identity or moral character by detecting patterns in nature any more than you can detect the identity or character of an ancient hunter by detecting patterns in his spear.StephenB
September 26, 2009
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ellazimm looking for loopholes in Debmski's comments: ---"The conceptual soundings of the [intelligent design] theory can in the end only be located in Christ” What is it about the "bridge" between science and THEOLOGY that you do not understand. On the other hand, what is it about ID methodology, as opposed to the former that you do not understand. ----“Not only does intelligent design rid us of this ideology, which suffocates the human spirit, but, in my personal experience, I’ve found that it opens the path for people to come to Christ. Indeed, once materialism is no longer an option, Christianity again becomes an option." What is it about the difference between ID methodology as opposed to Christian apologetics that you do not understand. What is it about the difference between ID methodology and the social consequences of ID vs. Darwinism that you do not understand? ----“You’re asking me to play a game: “Provide as much detail in terms of possible causal mechanisms for your ID position as I do for my Darwinian position.” ID is not a mechanistic theory, and it’s not ID’s task to match your pathetic level of detail in telling mechanistic stories. If ID is correct and an intelligence is responsible and indispensable for certain structures, then it makes no sense to try to ape your method of connecting the dots. True, there may be dots to be connected. But there may also be fundamental discontinuities, and with IC [irreducibly complex] systems that is what ID is discovering.” What is it about the fact that ID does not or need not study "mechanisms" that you do not understand?StephenB
September 26, 2009
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In his book Intelligent Design: The Bridge Between Science and Theology William Dembski wrote: "The conceptual soundings of the [intelligent design] theory can in the end only be located in Christ" He also wrote in an article for designinterference.com: "Not only does intelligent design rid us of this ideology, which suffocates the human spirit, but, in my personal experience, I've found that it opens the path for people to come to Christ. Indeed, once materialism is no longer an option, Christianity again becomes an option. True, there are then also other options. But Christianity is more than able to hold its own once it is seen as a live option. The problem with materialism is that it rules out Christianity so completely that it is not even a live option. Thus, in its relation to Christianity, intelligent design should be viewed as a ground-clearing operation that gets rid of the intellectual rubbish that for generations has kept Christianity from receiving serious consideration." And he once said: "You're asking me to play a game: "Provide as much detail in terms of possible causal mechanisms for your ID position as I do for my Darwinian position." ID is not a mechanistic theory, and it's not ID's task to match your pathetic level of detail in telling mechanistic stories. If ID is correct and an intelligence is responsible and indispensable for certain structures, then it makes no sense to try to ape your method of connecting the dots. True, there may be dots to be connected. But there may also be fundamental discontinuities, and with IC [irreducibly complex] systems that is what ID is discovering."ellazimm
September 26, 2009
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OK then, take out "moral character and purposes" from the statement and you're left with science unable to touch the "nature" of the designer. Why is it presumed that science is unable to do this? Generally, when we find an artifact suspected to have been created by intelligent beings, we use scientific processes to try to determine who made it, how they made it, when they made it, why they made it, etc. Why is it that these questions don't apply in this case if the intelligence is not necessarily supernatural?racingiron
September 25, 2009
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racingiron,
“[D]esign theorists recognize that the nature, moral character and purposes of this intelligence lie beyond the remit of science.” - William Dembski, Intelligent Design: The Bridge Between Science and Theology If you can’t use science (or even imagine it being used) to directly investigate something, aren’t you conceding that it is supernatural?
Not at all. You can't use science to determine logic, what morality is, what freedom is, what someone "ought" to do in a crisis, etc. etc. You wouldn't use science or a lab to determine if your girlfriend wants to marry you, or if you like your momma's cooking.Clive Hayden
September 25, 2009
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"[D]esign theorists recognize that the nature, moral character and purposes of this intelligence lie beyond the remit of science." - William Dembski, Intelligent Design: The Bridge Between Science and Theology If you can't use science (or even imagine it being used) to directly investigate something, aren't you conceding that it is supernatural?racingiron
September 25, 2009
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Learned Hand, Your willfull ignorance is duly noted. ID doesn't not require the supernatural and there isn't anything you can say to change that.Joseph
September 25, 2009
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----Learned Hand: "The problem is that ID “invokes and permits supernatural causes.” Oh, please. On the one hand, you have to ask how the ID scientist could "invoke" a supernatural cause. Does Learned mean, that the ID scientist "invokes" a supernatural agent, or did he mean anything at all. The word implies that ID petitions, calls out, or asks favors of what--a cause---a supernatural agent? I know that I am wasting my time asking this question, but can Learned provide an example of Dembski or Behe publically lighting a candle in the lab and praying for an answer to a scientific question in the name of intelligent design. On the other hand, it makes perfect sense that ID should "permit" a supernatural cause, for crying out loud. What exactly should the ID scientist do if, as it turns out, he finds the words, "made by yahweh" inscribed in a DNA molecule? Hide the kids and destroy the evidence? Oh, wait, the answer is yes. For Darwinists, the Constitution is defined as a document which protects them from evidence that could potentially offend them. This is the point to which mindless political correctness has brought us.StephenB
September 25, 2009
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----Learned Hand: "I’m sorry, but I think our conversation is over. Your complaints about not being able to read material cited by page number and source, and in fact quoted verbatim, are tedious and tendentious." Learned, I am trying to cultivate a kindler, gentler persona on this blog, I really am. However, you are making it very difficult with your rather obvious evasions. I will now stop asking you to provide evidence that Dembski and Behe have made remarks tying ID methodology to the supernatural, because I already know for a fact that no such remarks were ever made. So my position could not possibly be any stronger. You tried to make the reverse argument, but you have nothing to support it because you cannot change the nature of the facts in question. Indeed, you cannot provide even a single quote that comes close. Again, the reason for that is simple enough: no such quotes are available. So, we have to ask ourselves what that could mean. As I told you earlier, Judge Jones is not a trustworthy interpreter, so if you are relying on his decision as a source for your information, you will continue to find yourself in intellectual quicksand. The old me would have made hay out of your attempt to make me and my reading habits the issue. But this is the new, kindler, gentler me, so I will just say this: If our conversation is over, it is only because you have no case.StephenB
September 25, 2009
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Clive, The distinction between "everyone who has either … seriously employed a false argument" and "the argument of irreducible complexity" needs hardly be explained . . . except that apparently it needs to be explained. Smyth contends that the judge's rationale extends to “everyone who has either … seriously employed a false argument." That is plainly false; everyone has "seriously employed a false argument." Science is built on the correction of false arguments; the advocates of those arguments aren't demonized or excluded. The judge's point is that ID is still based on a false argument. It is actively promoting the discredited and logically unsound dualism that doomed creation science. Moreover, the court is looking to the idea, not necessarily the advocates of that idea, as Smyth says. The distinction is both in the tense (has employed vs. is employing) and the object (the idea vs. the advocate). Comments to Mr. Smyth's article pointed out this same logical failure; if he has responded, I haven't seen it. I’m still waiting on your definition of natural and supernatural, as this is the only real crux of the philosophical position at hand in this opinion, and the only one worth debating. You're going to be waiting a long time for my definition, because I'm still thinking about it. I'm now inclined to say that repeatibility is the core criteria; a natural cause works the same way, every time, given the same conditions; a non-natural cause may or may not follow the natural rules, and cannot be truly predicted. But my definition is a sideshow. It's less important than both the consensus approach to science, which is relevant to the court's Constitutional duty, and IDists' definitions, which were the rope by which they were hung in the opinion. If you can point us to statements by Dembski, Behe, Fuller, Johnson, etc., setting out their definitions, I'd be obliged. I googled for them and found some relevant material, but nothing really explicit.Learned Hand
September 24, 2009
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Stephen, I'm sorry, but I think our conversation is over. Your complaints about not being able to read material cited by page number and source, and in fact quoted verbatim, are tedious and tendentious. Clive, I agree that defining "natural" and "supernatural" is critical. In context, we must look primarily to the IDists' use of the term. Generally IDists are not shy about saying up front that ID permits an appeal to the supernatural. Fuller, for example, testified as follows: Q. Now, intelligent design is committed to introducing supernatural causation into the current science paradigm. Is that correct? A. That's not exclusively what it does, but it's certainly open to that. That seems unambiguous. Other statements are more complex; Behe, for example, says that he's rejecting natural sources for IC, but we can probably read an implicit "unguided" into his words. In other words, he'd accept a natural intelligent designer in theory. But it's not about whether Behe or other IDists would, in theory, accept a natural designer. (In practice I doubt they would, and for those IDists who insist that natural causes can't result in abiogenesis, I don't see how they could.) The court didn't find that ID accepts only supernatural causes. The problem is that ID "invokes and permits supernatural causes." The problems implicit in invoking supernatural causes are well-known, and I doubt you need me to explain them to you. Here especially, however, we must consider context; the court was ruling on a First Amendment challenge. The invocation of supernatural causes, which are clearly religious in character, is not just a philosophical problem, but also a Constitutional one. I take your point that natural causes can be called "supernatural" before they are truly understood. I agree. It would be possible to construct a legitimate, scientific study of possible design. It would not look much like the ID movement of Dembski or Behe. It would involve actual research, experiments, and publication of rigorously reviewed results. More fundamentally, it would investigate all the questions posed by the design hypothesis--when did design happen? Is it still happening? What does the design tell us about the designer?--rather than ruling certain questions out of bounds for strategic reasons.Learned Hand
September 24, 2009
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R0b, Thanks, but Dr. Dembski himself claims that the designer can be natural. I don't off the top of my head remember you using vague language, Diffaxial, however, was a master at saying nothing of substance---not all the time, but sometimes he had to seriously be distilled to discern the point at hand, which was usually nothing grande once the distillation was complete. But you, I can't remember using vague language. I don't think I should have included you, maybe I should have, I just don't remember, and so I retract that statement. What what I've seen lately you're not vague in your comments.Clive Hayden
September 24, 2009
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LH,
Mr. Smyth has either not read the opinion, not understood it, or is simply lying about its contents. I was astonished that he expected his readers to take such a silly mischaracterization at face value, and I am honestly disappointed that you have done so.
I'm frankly baffled that you cannot see that his "characterization" fits perfectly with what Jones wrote. I am disappointed, it is so obvious that is barely qualifies as a characterization, I would say it's just saying the same thing in another way for points 2 & 3.
(My request is not rhetorical. Please do cite the language in the opinion that militates against “everyone who has either … seriously employed a false argument, or … has had some position refuted.”)
(2) the argument of irreducible complexity, central to ID, employs the same flawed and illogical contrived dualism that doomed creation science in the 1980’s; and (3) ID’s negative attacks on evolution have been refuted by the scientific community. (Jones 2005, 64) It's so obvious, I'm surprised I have to spell it out like this LH. Nick Smyth is right in his critique. Jones's criteria for what constitutes as science is ridiculous. I'm still waiting on your definition of natural and supernatural, as this is the only real crux of the philosophical position at hand in this opinion, and the only one worth debating.Clive Hayden
September 24, 2009
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---Learned Hand: "I have given you quotations and citations to primary sources. I cannot make you read them." I have already read them, and there is nothing there. If you can find something, then don't just tell me it's there, provide the quote. ---"In other words, if natural causes are not responsible, then design is, but design need not be supernatural? If not A, then B, but B may be A?" It doesn't work that way. Dembski uses the word "natural causes" in his methodology to refer to law and chance. On the other hand, his adversaries have changed the word "natural" to mean "anti-supernatural" and "supernatural" to mean "anti-natural" without defining either. The purpose of doing that is to reframe the issue and distract from Dembski's own well-defined scientific constructs. Thus, in order to answer his critics, who refuse to use his own terms as he uses them, he must then use their arbitrary definitions even though they don't mean anything specific. This is clear enough from the fact that you, yourself, cannot define supernatural or natural, without of course, hearkening back to Dembski's own construct, which you, neverless, refuse to acknowledge as the official definition. ---"Similarly, I’m baffled that your claim that the refutation of methodological naturalism “has nothing to do with the supernatural.” What does MN exclude, if not the supernatural?" MN doesn't just exlude the supernatural, it excludes any methodology or thought pattern that could be interpreted by Darwinists as hinting of either supernatural or even superhuman activity, or anything like it. In other words, it forbids the scientist to follow wherever the evidence leads. In effect, it declares that nature must be studied as if "nature is all there is." That isn't science; that is ideology. To overturn methodological naturalism is to simply gain the freedom to follow evidence wherever it may lead.StephenB
September 24, 2009
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Stephen, I asked your for a quote that ties Dembski’s or Behe’s methodology to the “supernatural.” Let’s go ahead and establish that fact that you have nothing to put up, and that all your references were distractions from that fact and then we can move on. I have given you quotations and citations to primary sources. I cannot make you read them. If natural causes, which Dembski defines as law/chance are not responsible, then design is indicated, and, from a scientific perspective, the source of that design need not be supernatural at all. In other words, if natural causes are not responsible, then design is, but design need not be supernatural? If not A, then B, but B may be A? Similarly, I'm baffled that your claim that the refutation of methodological naturalism "has nothing to do with the supernatural." What does MN exclude, if not the supernatural?Learned Hand
September 24, 2009
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---"The former. If Dr. Dembski argues that natural causes cannot result in abiogenesis, how can he plausibly deny that ID is rooted in supernaturalism?" I asked your for a quote that ties Dembski's or Behe's methodology to the "supernatural." Let's go ahead and establish that fact that you have nothing to put up, and that all your references were distractions from that fact and then we can move on. [You are free to provide those quotes at any time (NO statute of limitations here] With regard to your question, the answer is quite simple: If natural causes, which Dembski defines as law/chance are not responsible, then design is indicated, and, from a scientific perspective, the source of that design need not be supernatural at all. ---"Moreover, what possible benefit is it to overturn methodological naturalism, if your theory is not bound up with supernaturalism?" Are you joking? Methodological naturalism is a rule established by the Darwinist academy which defines ID methodology as non scientific. To overturn this arbitrary rule is to be admitted and welcomed into the wider commumity of researchers and scholars. It has nothing to do with the supernatural.StephenB
September 24, 2009
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Stephen, Are we talking about Dembski’s official position, which is all that should matter, or your perception about its consistency with his other views, which is irrelevant to the issue. The former. If Dr. Dembski argues that natural causes cannot result in abiogenesis, how can he plausibly deny that ID is rooted in supernaturalism? Moreover, what possible benefit is it to overturn methodological naturalism, if your theory is not bound up with supernaturalism?Learned Hand
September 24, 2009
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----Rob: "Clive, Dembski’s current position is that design is natural, or could be natural, “provided that nature is understood aright”. Of course, one could also argue that computers are food provided that food is understood aright, and it comes down to the question of who gets to decide what the “right” definition is." The issue is whether Dembski or Behe said anything that can be reasonably construed as tying ID methodology to the supernatural as Judge Jones understood the supernatural. It was he, after all, who made the declaration that ID is tied to the supernatural and therefore it is he that assumed the burden of defining it. That means that only his definition of supernatural is relevant. It is in that context, that learned hand has declared that ID scientists have conceded that their science is tied to the supernatural. Thus, we are asking him to support that assertion, and thus your comment is a distraction.StephenB
September 24, 2009
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The debate is not "natural vs supernatural". The debate is "undirected vs directed". If the designer existed before nature then the designer is PRE-natural. And natural processes only exist in nature therefor cannot account for its origin.Joseph
September 24, 2009
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Clive, You certainly should not be criticizing my reading comprehension. Mr. Smyth quotes the court, then writes the passage I quoted in the second comment: Take, for example, the second and third requirement. If we banish everyone who has either (2) seriously employed a false argument, or (3) has had some position refuted, it's hard to imagine that there will be many scientists left to speak of. These requirements are patently absurd. This passage is original to Mr. Smyth. It is not taken from the court’s opinion. It is what is called a “paraphrase,” or a “characterization.” It is a false and misleading characterization, or what is called a “mischaracterization” of the source material. I’ll repeat my request: please cite what language from the court supports the suggestion that it intended to “banish everyone who has either … seriously employed a false argument, or … has had some position refuted.” Mr. Smyth has either not read the opinion, not understood it, or is simply lying about its contents. I was astonished that he expected his readers to take such a silly mischaracterization at face value, and I am honestly disappointed that you have done so. (My request is not rhetorical. Please do cite the language in the opinion that militates against “everyone who has either … seriously employed a false argument, or … has had some position refuted.”) And do you find his criterion for what constitutes as science based on his philosophy of what constitutes the natural and supernatural compelling? In short, can you answer the questions of my previous comment? I do. Bear in mind, however, the context of his comment. Constitutional law bears on the standards he is applying. I will write more later, but for now really must run.Learned Hand
September 24, 2009
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Clive, Dembski's current position is that design is natural, or could be natural, "provided that nature is understood aright". Of course, one could also argue that computers are food provided that food is understood aright, and it comes down to the question of who gets to decide what the "right" definition is. Note also that in the past, apparently before he understood nature aright, he held that design is not natural. e.g. "Since chance, necessity, and their combination characterize natural causes, it now follows that natural causes are incapable of generating CSI. (NFL, page 159, emphasis in original) BTW Clive, in this thread you accused Diffaxial and I of intentionally using vague language. I've asked you twice what you were referring to. Did I miss your answer?R0b
September 24, 2009
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----Clive: "I know that Dr. Dembski’s position is that the Intelligent Designer can be entirely natural." Yes, indeed. ----"How, if natural causes are insufficient for abiogenesis?" Are we talking about Dembski's official position, which is all that should matter, or your perception about its consistency with his other views, which is irrelevant to the issue.StephenB
September 24, 2009
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