Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Message Theory – A testable ID alternative to Darwinism – Part 1

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Message Theory is a testable scientific explanation of life’s major patterns.

That claim should intrigue you. If I heard such a claim, I would nearly leap across the room to demand more details; else I couldn’t sleep that night. That is because I highly value testability, just as all scientists do, (in physics, chemistry, geology, medicine, engineering, etcetera) – and just as evolutionists do in all their court cases.

Message Theory should even intrigue evolutionists, because it offers what they repeatedly demanded from their opponents – a testable, scientific alternative to evolution. Yes, that is exactly what they demanded. In reality, the evolutionists’ response has been exceedingly superficial, falling into two categories: (1) Silence; or (2) They misrepresent Message Theory. (If you are aware of exceptions, let me know.) Therefore, my posts here will not much address the evolutionists’ response to Message Theory, since a serious response doesn’t much exist.

The creationist/ID response has been more varied, and I focus on that here. Many see Message Theory as exciting and promising. For example, Origins Magazine reviewed it saying, “I can give no greater accolade than urging that this book should now be the starting point for all of our discussions.” Phillip E. Johnson calls it “Bold and fascinating … a comprehensive theory.” Carl Wieland calls it, “Masterpiece … incredible … of immense value.” Michael Behe and many others have given glowing reviews, (see this link). To which I say, Thanks! That’s a good start.

However, some creationists/ID-ists are hesitant to investigate Message Theory, and the central reason is its claim of testability – its claim to make numerous coherent, risky, predictions about what we should see, and should not see. Unfortunately, many creationists/ID-ists do not value testability, and some aggressively dislike testability. Without knowing any details about Message Theory, we encounter their leading objection – testability.

For example, some creationists say, “Aren’t you claiming to test God?” To which I answer: No. Message Theory is about life’s data – many observations that must be explained – and Message Theory explains those observations in a testable (falsifiable, vulnerable, empirically risky) manner. It meets all the criteria for a scientific theory. A theory is tested, not God. The thought process is no different than concerning, say, the Piltdown fossils, which needed an explanation. These fossils were a hoax created by an intelligent designer – a testable explanation that no scientist disputes. We need not test the intelligent designer, (indeed, the designer of the Piltdown Hoax remains unidentified), rather we test the theory. In science we test explanations (i.e., theories); not God.

Also, deep down, many creationists want the ‘certainty of faith,’ and they are not yet comfortable with the inherent riskiness of science – they haven’t learned to balance the two types of thought: risk and certainty.

The classic creationist organizations (ICR, AIG, CRS) often do not value testability, (and sometimes they explicitly oppose testability). Instead, they use a different criterion of science; a different value system. They claim “science must be repeatable, and since origins are not repeatable, creation and evolution are equally unscientific.” They are deeply mistaken. For example, we frequently execute murderers (which is not a flimsy thing to do) based solely on scientific evidence, even though the murder is not repeatable.

Instead, repeatability is how we identify naturalistic laws (as opposed to the work of intelligent beings); therefore the creationists’ demand for ‘repeatability’ is implicitly a demand that science must be purely naturalistic and cannot include an intelligent designer. They are shooting themselves in the foot!

Thankfully the ID organizations don’t take that approach. They take a more sophisticated approach, yet they tend to undervalue testability nonetheless, (sometimes through redefining it into obscurity).

In my many discussions with my fellow creationists/ID-ists, the foremost obstacle to Message Theory is their devaluing or misunderstanding of testability. So let me pause to underscore this for my readers: If you do not value testability highly, then leave now, or you will only waste your time, and mine. Let me put it stronger: Anyone (creationist, ID-ist, or evolutionist for that matter) who cheapens testability is a danger to science, and moreover, they miss many opportunities to advance creation/ID as superior science.

Let me put my claim stronger still: Message Theory is testable science, and macro-evolutionary theory (as practiced by its modern proponents) is not. I employ testability – the same tool evolutionists use in all their court cases – to turn the tables on evolutionists.

After handling some comments, I will next discuss Message Theory proper.

– Walter ReMine

The Biotic Message – the book

Comments
Re #76 Jerry Re #79 Collin I am going to try and avoid going round in circles and take a new tack. The problem is that "design" is not a hypothesis. If I proposed "chance" in the abstract as an explanation of something you would not be impressed. It is just too broad. Try thinking of it in the reverse. Take yourself back 300 years - before Darwin. A large number of intellectuals believe that life was created by God (this is not design - it is much more specific). I propose that "chance" is the cause of life. How do I know? God is the only plausible designer. I know that God does not exist. Therefore it is chance. Aha - you say. How did chance create life? I say - that is not my concern. I am a chance theorist. I just look for evidence of chance. Collin - Mount Rushmore looks like someone designed it because the chances of the rock weathering naturally to resemble four US presidents is incredibly much smaller than the chances that someone carved it that way. Compare this to a situation where e.g grass grows a different colour on my lawn in almost exactly the outline of a US president. Is this evidence of design? At first sight you might say so because the chances of grass growing in that pattern seem very small. But then it turns out someone left a metal outline of the president on the lawn over the winter and recently removed it. As soon as a chance explanation exists then design goes away. You would have to go a specific explanation of how design might have happened and compare it to the specific chance alternative.Mark Frank
February 18, 2009
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Technical note: For two days now, I see a "comments closed" screen before -- on a reload of the original page -- I see the comment box open. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
February 18, 2009
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uoflcard, I encourage you in your communications to be uber-polite. And I think you made a really good point.Collin
February 18, 2009
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This is OT from earlier, but worthy of attention here: This is what was discussed earlier: #6 - landru:
Sorry, off-topic, but this is really interesting. http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_.....021009.php Using OOL to teach general chemistry???
Here is what I posted...#14 uoflcard:
…yeah that is amazing. Is that real? from article:
Klymkowsky and Clemson University chemistry Professor Melanie Cooper were recently awarded a $500,000 grant from the National Science Foundation for a three-year project titled Chemistry, Life, the Universe and Everything, or CLUE. The project includes developing a general chemistry curriculum using the emergence and evolution of life as a springboard to introduce and explain related chemistry concepts, Klymkowsky said.
What is abiogenesis doing in any K-12 science classroom? I’m an ID advocate who doesn’t think ID should be taught in science classrooms yet, although what neo-Darwinism has failed to prove should be taught. But abiogenesis has less of a right to be in a science classroom than ID. That is a blantant example of a worldview being shoved down people’s throats w/o any evidence. I can’t get over how hypocritical that is. They blatantly do the exact thing they accuse ID-supporters of doing - bypassing the scientific method straight for the classroom. If abiogenesis is in classrooms, then ID should be. There is no defending that. It is 100% speculation at this point, has not been scientifically proven to any reasonable extent. Yet the NSF, defender of almighty science, skips all of that and gives $500,000 to have its worldview fed to children
I sent Dr. Klymkowski an e-mail. Here is what I wrote:
Please explain what abiogenesis is doing in high school. Did I miss the memo that anything other than speculation was proven to be possible regarding this process? If not, doesn't this violate the exact reasons the science classroom has been so militantly defended from ID or creationism?
It came out a little more pointed than I intended, but he was gracious, cordial and expedient in his response, which I appreciated. But that didn't hide how shocking it was (emphasis added): Klymkowski:
Well, from a scientific perspective, life must have arisen from non-living physiochemical systems, and there are a growing number of hints as to how that may have occurred. This is a subject of some (but not a lot of research - curing diseases is more pressing) ...
I wrote back saying I think he substituted "science" for "naturalism". Science is not a worldview, it is simply the methodological study of natural phenomena. It doesn't require anything. NATURALISM requires life to have arisen from non-living physiochemical systems. (And btw, my Christian belief does not require anything either way regarding OOL, either natural or supernatural) I wouldn't really care much about what one person says, but this is a guy who just received a $500,000 grant from the NSF to have this worldview (not science) taught to children.uoflcard
February 18, 2009
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Mark Frank, The complexity is positive evidence for design. I find it interesting that nobody arguing for evolution seems to address the arrowhead/Mt. Rushmore argument. How do you infer design from Mt. Rushmore? When someone claims that Mt. Rushmore was created by erosion and I counter that that is very unlikely and that it is more likely that someone design/created it am I only making a negative argument? Even Dawkins says that things evolved to appear to be designed. Isn't that appearance positive evidence? And isn't the attempt to explain why something isn't designed, even though it looks designed, probative as well?Collin
February 18, 2009
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Venus Mousetrap:
Evolutionary biologists do do math. It’s called population genetics
Lets get back to the point of this thread, Walter ReMine's theorizing. Mr. ReMine has suggested that Haldane's dilemma(Haldane's calculation of just how few mutations could fix between the common ancestor of human and chimp compared to the number of mutations recorded) is still an issue. If I understand ReMine correctly, he did his calcuations assuming about 1.5% difference between human and chimp. The most evolutionary value I have been able to find these days is more like about 6% difference in coding DNA. (The scientific community is coming to recognize that much of non-coding DNA is expressed in the phenotype, so is also relevant.) ReMine's premise is that the math does not work out between human and chimp via classic population genetic analysis. My understanding is that his position, Haldane's position, has not been seriously addressed.bFast
February 18, 2009
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Venus Flytrap, The whole point behind irreducible complexity is that there aren't any previous successes to build on. And that means the larger the number of components the more difficult it would be to bring together based on that- ie no success until the whole thing is not only assembled but functional. Also many scientists are specialists whose research has nothing to do with the debate. I would even go so far as many of them don't understand what is being debated. For example the NCSE seems to support that all evolution is being debated. In Discover Sean Carroll stated the same thing. And Darwin started that myth! IOW most every scientist who opposes both Creation and ID thinks that both teach fixation of species. Bill Nye the science guy was on TV spewing that same garbage. So perhaps those scientists are lying- maybe they are just ignorant of the issue.Joseph
February 18, 2009
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Mark Frank, Your logic escapes me. You know what we are advocating here is. The process is: Making some observations. And then after we have made those observation, we have offered a tried and true way they could have happened. We then observe that no other mechanism has ever produced anything like these observations. And then we conclude that the most likely scenario is the one that has been shown capable to produce the observations and not some hypothetical pie in the sky mumbo jumbo. It is as simple as that. If the MET or whatever it is called today could do it, we would admit it. If some other hypothetical process could do it, we would admit it. We just know of one process that can do it. So we are stuck with that till someone can pull the rabbit out of the hat and produce another. Now there is no known intelligence before man. But somehow the universe was created and is so incredibly fine tuned that it must have been the result of intelligence so the likelihood of an intelligence existing after the universe came into being seem highly reasonable. We also know that the laws of nature existed before life appeared and it is a possibility that these laws could have led to life. That is the position of a lot of people but it has one failing. It has not left any evidence that such a thing ever happened or was even possible. But yet people cling to this illogical low probability hope with an incredible faith.jerry
February 18, 2009
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#72 StephenB Are you saying the design is simply the "reciprocal" of modern evolutionary theory? i.e. that all that ID is proposing is that MET is false? To see what is negative about ID consider what counts as evidence for ID and what counts as evidence for MET. MET counts as evidence: - fossil record shows gradual change that is required - method of inheritance is particulate as required - age of the earth is sufficient - specific episodes of microevolution and speciation have been observed - etc I know where will be comments saying that this evidence is not true. That's not the point of this comment. The point is that the evidence is positive. It is about observations that MET predicts - things that need to hold or are likely to hold. Now look at the "evidence" for ID. It is all about the impossibility of alternatives - then it jumps in with the conclusion that ID is true. CSI and IR are defined in terms of the improbability of alternatives - that's what makes them complex and irreducible. The only evidence that is allowed under ID is assessment of the implausability of MET - anything else would require discussing who, why and how. To look at it another way - if a plausible alternative to ID were identified for any specific outcome e.g. bacterial flagellum, then ID goes away - there is no evidence left. If a plausible alternative to MET were identified then there would be a discussion about which is the more plausible explanation and how to test between them.Mark Frank
February 18, 2009
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For all those who are interested, ID is not a “negative” argument. In fact, every negative argument implies a reciprocal positive argument and vice versa. ID is no different. Indeed, it is the positive argument that frames the issue which allows the negative argument to take hold. The principle characteristic of intelligent causation is “directed contingency,” or choice. As most of you know, whenever an intelligent cause acts, it chooses from a range of competing possibilities. This applies to Divine intelligence, superhuman intelligence, humans intelligence, and, some would say, animal intelligence. Whenever one of us writes a post, he/she chooses from among a wide range of possible permutations and combinations. ID always entails choosing some things and ruling out others. The same thing applies to the “designer” of the universe and of life. In that sense, we do know something about the way the designer acts in a very general sense, which is a point that our critics choose to ignore. In any case, the process by which we attain knowledge about these things can be either a DIRECT conclusion (syllogism) or an INDIRECT conclusion, (process of elimination) or "reductio ad absurdum." The latter technique is not “negative,” it is merely the reciprocal of the other form. Example: Design is real [affirmation] Design is not an “illusion” [reciprocal] Now it is true that ID does have a powerful “negative” argument against Darwin’s “general theory” (not his “special theory,” but this argument has been emphasized for strategic reasons to dramatize the point that our adversary’s dogmatic pronouncements have no basis in science. But that negative argument depends on the positive reciprocal argument or it would have no logical force. The positive side of that argument is, “here are the conditions any theory about biodiversity must meet.” In truth, both arguments are positive in their formulation, if we refrain from including the negative reciprocal. [A] Intelligent design [A designer fashioned all life forms either directly or indirectly.] [B] Materialist Darwinism [“Life found a way.” ] Quote from Jurassic ParkStephenB
February 18, 2009
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Davescot: Can you reduce things like a prokaryote acquiring a nucleus to a mathematical model? Quite easily I expect, but then you'll just attack the model. Evolutionary biologists do do math. It's called population genetics, and while I had to bend a few legs to get them to admit it, it does look at exactly the kind of problems ID is talking about; modelling populations and modelling evolutionary change, selection, etc. The problem is when WE apply statistical mechananics to “evolution” law and chance come up as wanting in capacity to produce molecular machinery as it is in producing microprocessors. The numbers just don’t work. But you don't apply statistics to evolution. Remember Kirk's math from a few weeks ago? He modelled evolution as a 10^42 long random walk. Dembski modelled the likelihood of a flagellum assembling by chance in one of his papers; I don't know if he's done better since then. These are tornado-in-the-junkyard scenarios. Evolution isn't like that; it builds on previous successes. You can't say you're applying statistics to evolution if every time you leave out the stuff which makes it, well, evolution. The further problem is that “evolution” devotees just plain ignore the probalistic problems. Because they've heard lots of arguments from improbability before ID. Because, for them, evolution is true they simply accept any improbability, however remote, as something that MUST have happened because that IS the TRUE way life came to be the way it is. This is not reducing things to physics. It’s faith. There isn’t two degrees of difference between faith in the chance & necessity narratives and faith in the biblical narratives. Or, faith that scientists are decent and hard-working people who've spent their lives doing research and have no interest in lying. I mean, honestly, you're accusing thousands of people either of being rubbish at their jobs, or lying every single day of their lives.Venus Mousetrap
February 18, 2009
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B L Harville:
bFast:
Is it not true that all engineering is reduceable to physics?
Unless you’re going to be specific about the methods used by these engineers you’re making a statement about history, not forming a scientific hypothesis.
I saw a show a while back where scientists were using available tools to reproduce the arrowheads that they had found. Now, are you saying that there were no scientific theories about where the arrowheads came from until the scientists did this work? The ID position is as follows: 1 - Engineering is capable of producing the class of complexity that we see in nature. 2 - Non-engineering methods, we claim, are unable to produce the class of complexity that we see in nature. 3 - Therefore either the complexity we see in nature is the product of engineering, or the theory is falsifiable by demonstrating that a non-engineering method can do the job. If engineering can do the job, the scientist is certainly called to seek out who the engineer(s) is/are. However, science is pretty darn lame if it can't detect design without first identifying the designer. Is your science lame?bFast
February 18, 2009
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"the evolution of the capacity for religion." Sounds like the begging of a few questions there.jerry
February 18, 2009
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"Could you not think of a model of ID" Craig Venter and MIT are both involved in modifying life forms. These are two you can use. There are many others who are trying to create something from scratch so you many want to look at them.jerry
February 18, 2009
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"The question of where the limits of those mechanisms lie is still outstanding, but your statement that there is no positive argument is factually incorrect" Since there is no evidence for any mechanism, how is that positive? People have proposed all sorts of mechanisms but when it comes to empirical data, the well is dry. I could posit one eyed purple people eaters from the Andromeda galaxy as the source of DNA for earth and that is a positive assertion but there is no evidence for it. So is that a positive argument or not. Now this silly comment is meant to show that no one can provide any evidence for any mechanism for macro evolution (macro evolution of complex new functional capabilities) other than assertion. So I stand by my comment. The argument is over information and they know it but only throw out trivia and then claim victory.jerry
February 18, 2009
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In case anyone is interested and has the time, I am teaching a one-week intensive seminar course this summer at Cornell on the evolution of the capacity for religion. You can find out more about it here: http://www.sce.cornell.edu/cau/on_campus/courses.php?action=class&f=CLASSID&v=13012Allen_MacNeill
February 18, 2009
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Time to end this. I will no longer respond to DaveScot's vile screeds. Anyone who wishes to discuss the issues and is willing to act the way I have acted toward John Sanford, Michael Behe, and Hannah Maxson will be responded to with the respect they deserve.Allen_MacNeill
February 18, 2009
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It's called tenure, Dave; look it up. John Stanford and I have debated on several occasions (including once when he was invited to give a presentation in our introductory evolution course), and never once did he question my authority to debate him. Neither did Michael Behe when he made a presentation in our course. Indeed, John thanked me and Will Provine profusely for our "gentlemanly" treatment of him in our course (something for which you are clearly never in danger of being thanked). I don't teach courses in genetics because my field is evolutionary biology. They're different departments at Cornell. What are they at the university where you teach, Dave? And as for the "Peter Principle", clearly someone stopped promoting you to your level of incompetence long before reaching any position at any institution of higher learning anywhere. Or am I wrong? Are you, in fact, a tenured academic at the DaveScot Institute for Advanced Ad Hominem Argumentation?Allen_MacNeill
February 18, 2009
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Davescot, First , you responded with a model of evolution not ID. Could you not think of a model of ID? Second, if the genomes of species are constantly degrading then it would not just be a problem for evolution, the species would need constant repair. If all the species all over the world all throughout time are in need of constant repair and are yet thriving there is either a problem with the theory that they are falling prey to entropy or we have moved into the realm of the supernatural. bFast:
Is it not true that all engineering is reduceable to physics?
Unless you're going to be specific about the methods used by these engineers you're making a statement about history, not forming a scientific hypothesis. And in the case of ID the historical statement can't be verified since the engineers are nowhere to be found.B L Harville
February 18, 2009
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you might ask yourself why I have been repeatedly asked to teach the introductory evolution course and the upper level history of biology seminar at Cornell Same reason someone else is repeatedly asked to clean the restrooms would be my guess. You might ask yourself why you think you're qualified to argue with Cornell geneticist John Sanford or why you aren't teaching courses in genetics or engaged in genetics research or generating the patents that Sanford did. Look up "The Peter Principle" and you'll have the answer.DaveScot
February 18, 2009
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Re DaveScot in #42: Thanks, Dave, for admitting publicly that you have no rational arguments or evidence with which to rebut my arguments and evidence, and so must resort once again to pure ad hominem attacks. This, indeed, says more about your confidence in your position than virtually anything else you might post. BTW, you might ask yourself why I have been repeatedly asked to teach the introductory evolution course and the upper level history of biology seminar at Cornell, given my seeming lack of qualifications to do so. Might it be that the department of ecology and evolutionary biology thinks that both my scholarship and teaching skills might just be adequate for the task? And while we're on the subject, what are your professional qualifications to comment intelligently on the science of evolutionary biology? Also, at which Ivy League universities have you taught biology and evolution (and received multiple awards for doing so)? Just curious...Allen_MacNeill
February 18, 2009
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Mark Frank:
I am sorry I don’t get the point of your post. All I am saying is that if you find a plausible natural explanation for an observation then it no longer has specified complexity or irreducible complexity. Are disagreeing?
Don't know. Are you saying your plausible natural explanation doesn't have CSI either? Does a book not have CSI because we know someone wrote it (I'm not appealling to metaphysical notions of intelligence though.)JT
February 18, 2009
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Jerry @58
It appears that neither of you are arguing that there is a positive argument for ID.”
Nor is there a positive argument for any naturalistic mechanism for macro evolution. So what else is new.
Jerry, I generally make a point of reading your posts, but you've made similar claims to this on occasion and they don't meet your usual level of intellectual quality. There is an enormous literature discussing possible mechanisms for macro evolution. Allan MacNeill has posted references to some of it elsewhere on this site. That literature discusses positive claims and the results of testing positive predictions. The question of where the limits of those mechanisms lie is still outstanding, but your statement that there is no positive argument is factually incorrect. JJJayM
February 18, 2009
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Joseph @45
1. High information content (or specified complexity) and irreducible complexity constitute strong indicators or hallmarks of (past) intelligent design.
Unfortunately, as has been discussed extensively in multiple threads here, there is no rigorous definition of specified complexity that can be objectively applied to arrive at the same answer by different, independent individuals. Further, it has not been demonstrated that such information is uniquely the product of intelligence.
2. Biological systems have a high information content (or specified complexity) and utilize subsystems that manifest irreducible complexity.
Again, the current information measurements such as CSI are insufficiently rigorous to support this claim. In addition, "irreducible complexity" is too often positioned as "ID of the gaps", relying on lack of knowledge rather than positive knowledge.
3. Naturalistic mechanisms or undirected causes do not suffice to explain the origin of information (specified complexity) or irreducible complexity.
Unproven, partly due to the lack of rigor in the measurement definitions.
4. Therefore, intelligent design constitutes the best explanations for the origin of information and irreducible complexity in biological systems.
Since the first three premises are unsupported, the conclusion is highly suspect. I would like to see the mathematical arguments for ID strengthened, but I suspect that support for ID is more likely to come from investigating the limits of MET mechanisms in the short to medium term. I'd be delighted to be proven wrong, of course. However, as long as it is so easy for even a sympathetic listener such as myself to shoot down the common ID argument you've presented, DaveScot and other ID proponents here should refrain from making the resulting unsupported claim. It makes it too easy for ID opponents to dismiss the whole idea. JJJayM
February 18, 2009
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"It appears that neither of you are arguing that there is a positive argument for ID." Nor is there a positive argument for any naturalistic mechanism for macro evolution. So what else is new.jerry
February 18, 2009
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Re JT #52. I am sorry I don't get the point of your post. All I am saying is that if you find a plausible natural explanation for an observation then it no longer has specified complexity or irreducible complexity. Are disagreeing?Mark Frank
February 18, 2009
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KF [54]: A binary string does not reek of FSCI regardless of that fact that if you throw it at a computer it can be executed. Furthermore, when you think of a computer, think "turing machine"- an utterly simplistic device. All the optimized subsystems of a typical computer are not intrinsic to computer as a concept and can be thought of as software. Any arbitrary binary string is software as well.JT
February 18, 2009
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Re #50 and #51. Joseph make a comment with the title: "The Positive Case for Design" and also links to a Casey Luskin article with a similar title. I point out the negative assumption underlying this. You respond: Nearly all the arguments in the evolution debate are negative. It is the lack of the positive that is at the heart of the debate and As if pointing out that the explanation doesn’t fit the evidence is a weakness of some kind (see Copernicus, Einstein, Mendel, Wegener, Denton, Behe) It appears that neither of you are arguing that there is a positive argument for ID.Mark Frank
February 18, 2009
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PS: When we try to shift to programs that "generate" observed -- i.e. physical -- strings, we must remember that such only happens when we have: algorithms, languages, coded programs, and executing machinery. these all reek of FSCI, and as well are known to be: artifacts of intelligence. the "escape" from the force of observing FSCI is only apparent.kairosfocus
February 18, 2009
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Material context: INFORMATION (per Shannon et al) is defined in probabilistic terms, not just FSCI or CSI. In praxis, we can count bits objectively enough, and when we do so in a functional context they are functionally specified [e.g. the number of bits in this message]. We do this all the time when we talk about file, memory stick or hard drive sizes. When we go over 1,000 bits, we have passed a threshold of complexity such that no random-walk based search on the gamut of the cosmos will have a reasonable chance of hitting the message. (Cf diagram at the just linked.) So, I am very comfortable in saying that if we have a functioning entity that works based on at least 1,000 bits of working info, it will be FSCI in the relevant sense. We may easily enough show many cases of such FSCI tracing to intelligent action. Notice that for all objections made to date, we have yet to see a case where chance + necessity have been observed to produce such a case. BOTTOMLINE: FSCI is a reliable, empirically justified, provisional - as are all scientific inductive inferences -- sign of intelligence. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
February 18, 2009
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18
2009
08:33 AM
8
08
33
AM
PDT
1 2 3 4 5

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