Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Not Very NICE

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

Investor’s Business Daily posted an article relating Obama’s Healthcare Bill to the National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence (NICE), the technocrats responsible for the U.K.’s health care.  The article states:

This administration, pledging to cut medical costs and for which “cost-effectiveness” is a new mantra, knows that a quarter of Medicare spending is made in a patient’s final year of life. Certainly the British were aware when they nationalized their medical system.

The controlling of medical costs in countries such as Britain through rationing, and the health consequences thereof are legendary. The stories of people dying on a waiting list or being denied altogether read like a horror movie script.

The U.K.’s National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence (NICE) basically figures out who deserves treatment by using a cost-utility analysis based on the “quality adjusted life year.”

One year in perfect health gets you one point. Deductions are taken for blindness, for being in a wheelchair and so on.

The more points you have, the more your life is considered worth saving, and the likelier you are to get care.

The British are praised for spending half as much per capita on medical care. How they do it is another matter. The NICE people say that Britain cannot afford to spend $20,000 to extend a life by six months. So if care will cost $1 more, you get to curl up in a corner and die.

These NICE people bring to mind another technocratic group I’ve read about called the “National Institute of Coordinated Experiments (NICE)” in C. S. Lewis’s 1945 novel That Hideous Strength: a Modern Fairy-Tale for Grown-Ups.  Those NICE folks in Lewis’s novel were an institution which would decide who lived and who died in accordance to their agenda of control and advancement of the remaining people into a Utopian, omni-competent and global scientific technocracy. That Hideous Strength was the fictional representation of the governmental materialism and scientism philosophy of social control Lewis described in The Abolition of Man, in which Lewis explains:

It is the magician’s bargain: give up our soul, get power in return. But once our souls, that is, ourselves, have been given up, the power thus conferred will not belong to us. We shall in fact be the slaves and puppets of that to which we have given our souls. It is in Man’s power to treat himself as a mere `natural object’ and his own judgements of value as raw material for scientific manipulation to alter at will. The objection to his doing so does not lie in the fact that this point of view (like one’s first day in a dissecting room) is painful and shocking till we grow used to it. The pain and the shock are at most a warning and a symptom. The real objection is that if man chooses to treat himself as raw material, raw material he will be: not raw material to be manipulated, as he fondly imagined, by himself, but by mere appetite, that is, mere Nature, in the person of his de-humanized Conditioners.

The Investor’s Business Daily article continues:

The British [NICE] have succeeded in putting a price tag on human life, as we are about to.

Can’t happen here, you say? “One troubling provision of the House bill,” writes Betsy McCaughey in the New York Post, “compels seniors to submit to a counseling session every five years (and more often if they become sick or go into a nursing home) about alternatives for end-of-life care (House bill, Pages 425-430).”

One of the Obama administration’s top medical care advisers is Oxford- and Harvard-educated bioethicist Ezekiel Emanuel. Yes, he’s the brother of White House Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel and has the ear of his brother and the president.

“Calls for changing physician training and culture are perennial and usually ignored,” he wrote last June in the Journal of the American Medical Association. “However, the progression in end-of-life care mentality from ‘do everything’ to more palliative care shows that change in physician norms and practices is possible.”

Emanuel sees a problem in the Hippocratic Oath doctors take to first do no harm, compelling them “as an imperative to do everything for the patient regardless of cost or effect on others,” thereby avoiding the inevitable move toward “socially sustainable, cost-effective care.”

C. S. Lewis, in his essay “Is Progress Possible? Willing Slaves of the Welfare State“, articulates the danger of this mentality,

Again, the new oligarchy must more and more base its claim to plan us on its claim to knowledge. If we are to be mothered, mother must know best. This means they must increasingly rely on the advice of scientists, till in the end the politicians proper become merely the scientists’ puppets. Technocracy is the form to which a planned society must tend. Now I dread specialists in power because they are specialists speaking outside their special subjects. Let scientists tell us about sciences. But government involves questions about the good for man, and justice, and what things are worth having at what price; and on these a scientific training gives a man’s opinion no added value. Let the doctor tell me I shall die unless I do so-and-so; but whether life is worth having on those terms is no more a question for him than for any other man…

On just the same ground I dread government in the name of science. That is how tyrannies come in. In every age the men who want us under their thumb, if they have any sense, will put forward the particular pretension which the hopes and fears of that age render most potent. They ‘cash in’. It has been magic, it has been Christianity. Now it will certainly be science…We must give full weight to the claim that nothing but science, and science globally applied, and therefore unprecedented Government controls, can produce full bellies and medical care for the whole human race: nothing, in short, but a world Welfare State. It is a full admission of these truths which impresses upon me the extreme peril of humanity at present.

We have on the one hand a desperate need; hunger, sickness, and the dread of war. We have, on the other, the conception of something that might meet it: omnicompetent global technocracy. Are not these the ideal opportunity for enslavement? This is how it has entered before; a desperate need (real or apparent) in the one party, a power (real or apparent) to relieve it, in the other. In the ancient world individuals have sold themselves as slaves, in order to eat. So in society. Here is a witch-doctor who can save us from the sorcerers — a war-lord who can save us from the barbarians — a Church that can save us from Hell. Give them what they ask, give ourselves to them bound and blindfold, if only they will! Perhaps the terrible bargain will be made again. We cannot blame men for making it. We can hardly wish them not to. Yet we can hardly bear that they should.

The question about progress has become the question whether we can discover any way of submitting to the worldwide paternalism of a technocracy without losing all personal privacy and independence. Is there any possibility of getting the super Welfare State’s honey and avoiding the sting?

Comments
"Private systems try to keep it quiet about their “dirty little secret”." It is a much better system when it is has these dirty little secrets. The public system is an abomination. Most of these public systems are living off the breakthroughs developed using the dirty little secret system. With out the so called dirty little secrets we would have a lot worse health care. Truman wanted to institute socialized health care in 1948. Does anyone believe we would have all these miracle treatments, miracle diagnostic techniques and miracle drugs with socialized medicine. The reason we have a problems is that there are so many options.jerry
August 19, 2009
August
08
Aug
19
19
2009
07:17 AM
7
07
17
AM
PDT
jerry @ 44
Maybe the correct word to use is not “rationing” but “restricting” or maybe some other word. Find what is appropriate. But whatever it is there will be more of it in a public plan than if the whole system remains private.
In any system where demand exceeds supply, there will be rationing one way or another. In most, if not all, countries in the world the demand for healthcare outstrips available resources. And it makes no difference whether the system is public or private, some people are not going to get what they want or need. The only difference between public and private in this respect is that, in a public system, the rationing is more obvious because is is discussed more openly. Private systems try to keep it quiet about their "dirty little secret". Seversky
August 18, 2009
August
08
Aug
18
18
2009
09:42 PM
9
09
42
PM
PDT
BillB, you call it a gamble. At least the insurance companies have the law over them, and you have a signed contract which holds weight in a court of law. The “public option” has neither. The government is the law and has never signed a legally binding contract with its citizens over healthcare. They just take the money and say “trust us”. There is no accountability. Liberals continually try to pedal this strange, unfounded belief that government is somehow innately more virtuous than the private sector. All people are bad. What makes them play nice is accountability and authority. The private sector has both. Government has neither. You choose. This is no more rational than lamarck’s tinfoil-hat theories about the 16th amendment. Healthcare reform, if it is passed, will be codified in statutory law and regulations. Those laws are, in fact, binding on the government. If a patient believes the government violated the law with respect to his coverage, he has at least the same remedies as he would against an insurer who reneged on a policy. Citizens sue the government all the time over such breaches. People whose social security benefits are denied, for example, sue the government. It’s quite common. And it’s ridiculous to assert that “there is no accountability.” There is; public finances are public, reviewed both by the government’s own auditors and interested citizen parties. Where there are improper expenditures, corrective action ranges from the aforementioned lawsuits to the ballot box. An aggrieved citizen has more options against the government than against a private insurer, in fact; you can’t vote the AIG CEO out of office.Learned Hand
August 18, 2009
August
08
Aug
18
18
2009
11:07 AM
11
11
07
AM
PDT
jerry: "Maybe the correct word to use is not “rationing” but “restricting” or maybe some other word. Find what is appropriate. But whatever it is there will be more of it in a public plan than if the whole system remains private." Seversky: "Something similar is true when hard decisions have to be made about the allocation of limited healthcare resources. Somebody will be landed with the responsibility of making those choices. Do they toss a coin or try to find a more rational system? This is the reason why the UK National Health Service set up the National Institute for Health an Clinical Excellence (NICE) whose function – since UD is big on function – is described as follows in the Wikipedia entry: As with any system financing health care, the NHS has a limited budget and a vast number of potential spending options. Choices must be made as to how this limited budget is spent. By comparing the cost effectiveness in terms of health quality gained for the money spent. [6]. By choosing to spend the finite NHS budget upon those treatment options that provide the most efficient results society can ensure it is does not lose out on possible health gains through spending on inefficient treatments and neglecting those which are more efficient." Glad to see you guys agree on something. "tragic mishap
August 18, 2009
August
08
Aug
18
18
2009
10:25 AM
10
10
25
AM
PDT
Ok tragic goodbyelamarck
August 18, 2009
August
08
Aug
18
18
2009
10:19 AM
10
10
19
AM
PDT
lol @ lamarck Go away, you're embarrassing yourself. BillB, you call it a gamble. At least the insurance companies have the law over them, and you have a signed contract which holds weight in a court of law. The "public option" has neither. The government is the law and has never signed a legally binding contract with its citizens over healthcare. They just take the money and say "trust us". There is no accountability. Liberals continually try to pedal this strange, unfounded belief that government is somehow innately more virtuous than the private sector. All people are bad. What makes them play nice is accountability and authority. The private sector has both. Government has neither. You choose.tragic mishap
August 18, 2009
August
08
Aug
18
18
2009
09:53 AM
9
09
53
AM
PDT
I've noticed quite a lot of conservative Americans saying quite bizarre things about the British and other European healthcare systems. Those of us like me (who's parents both worked in the NHS) observing from the UK and Europe can only laugh at this behaviour and pity you poor Americans as you get suckered into believing that making insurance company owners into millionaires is the best way to provide healthcare, and that getting the richer to help the poorer is evil - Christian values anyone? I see nothing wrong with having private healthcare, we have it in the UK, but health insurance is always a gamble, you pay a company money and they, in the interest of profits, will do their best to avoid paying out. I prefer not to gamble with my life and feel so much safer living in a country where I know that I will receive treatment without question, regardless of my age or ability. The question I want to know is will we ever get an apology from these Americans for spreading lies about our countries? Probably not.BillB
August 18, 2009
August
08
Aug
18
18
2009
09:30 AM
9
09
30
AM
PDT
If anyone's interested Taiwan's government backed healthcare is a diamond in the ruff. Key take-away: UHC works in successful economies. Debtor nations need not apply.Oramus
August 18, 2009
August
08
Aug
18
18
2009
04:01 AM
4
04
01
AM
PDT
I just found a very spirited comment on our current health care "debate" over at Orac's blog Respectful Insolence (he's a physician and researcher). Here's a snippet:
What I'd like to know is what is so civilised about a healthcare system that excludes millions because they don't have insurance, or that rations healthcare according to the wealth of an individual. And what's so civilised about about a healthcare system where the main priorities are Insurance company profits, drug company profits, medical professionals' profits, lawyers' profits? I suppose as long as it's not "Socialism" who cares! Americans annually spend twice the percentage of GDP that the Brits spend on healthcare, and it's still a nation of sick and ailing fatties, addicted to therapy and quackery.
The commenter is a citizen of the UK living in the US, by the way.David v. Squatney
August 17, 2009
August
08
Aug
17
17
2009
06:36 PM
6
06
36
PM
PDT
jerry @ 41
If I have a terminal illness and there is a possibility that a treatment may work and it is not sanctioned by the insurance companies or the government, I have the right to buy that treatment if I can come up with the money. So health care is no different than other economic good. The reason is has become an issue is that so many new options are available to let us live longer and better that people want it. NO! They demand it as a right. They want it all and like every other so called right, they want other people to pay for it.
I seem to remember a famous document which says in part:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness
I could be wrong but I am pretty sure that by "life" the authors meant more than just existing in something like a persistent vegetative state. They meant the ability to live life to the full which cannot be done unless you have your health. So, yes, I would say the right to health is implied in the right to life. Of course, you can have an entirely free market in healthcare where you can buy the best treatment available if you have the money which is apparently the sort of system that right-wing libertarians lean towards. What they tend to be less outspoken about is the downside to such a system, which is that those who cannot afford it, for whatever reason, go without. Going without, of course, means that they can get sick and even die. But then from the libertarian perspective it is probably their own fault they do not have enough money and why should the rest of us bail out those too lazy to work? In fact, from that perspective, personal wealth is a measure of the skill, talent and hard work of the individual. They are the richest members of society because they are the fittest and as such their survival benefits society. The rest can be left to be flushed out of the gene pool. Of course, there are other names for such a policy - names like "social Darwinism" or "eugenics".Seversky
August 17, 2009
August
08
Aug
17
17
2009
05:40 PM
5
05
40
PM
PDT
IRQ Conflict, Just saw your posts. Regarding the Aaron Russo article, it's filled with straw men and diversions. Bottom line is apportioned means just that and the 16 amendment was never fully ratified. I'm not a tax dodger myself, you have to choose your battles. I'm not christian but it's my understanding that the keystone of christian values is fighting evil so I'd look into this stuff more. We're in the information war phase and before it becomes a hot war maximum damage needs to be done informing people. "The creature from Jekyll Island" covers what the Fed reserve is well. 9/11 without question had US involvement. Here's a vid of Alex Jones destroying a kool aid drinker: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMjgyzKoXy4 and yes I stream Alex's radio show every day and he's that riveting all the time. Regarding the big picture, take it out of the "belief" mode and simply look at what they do and more importantly what they say. There's more quotes as damming as the one I posted earlier. Re: extreme views, if your not "extreme" you simply don't care. Hope this helps.lamarck
August 17, 2009
August
08
Aug
17
17
2009
05:36 PM
5
05
36
PM
PDT
vjtorley @ 21
I wish to state that I am utterly opposed to the Quality of Life Years system used by the UK National Health Service. However, the principle of universal coverage is a separate moral issue, and people in Britain overwhelmingly support it.
I understand your concern and I agree entirely with you that it is wrong to try and argue that one life is more valuable than another. The presumption should be that all lives are equally valuable. Of course, there are occasionally cases where doctors find themselves in the invidious position of being forced to make a choice between two lives, such as when an emergency arises during a pregnancy and either the mother or the child can be saved but not both. Something similar is true when hard decisions have to be made about the allocation of limited healthcare resources. Somebody will be landed with the responsibility of making those choices. Do they toss a coin or try to find a more rational system? This is the reason why the UK National Health Service set up the National Institute for Health an Clinical Excellence (NICE) whose function - since UD is big on function - is described as follows in the Wikipedia entry:
As with any system financing health care, the NHS has a limited budget and a vast number of potential spending options. Choices must be made as to how this limited budget is spent. By comparing the cost effectiveness in terms of health quality gained for the money spent. [6]. By choosing to spend the finite NHS budget upon those treatment options that provide the most efficient results society can ensure it is does not lose out on possible health gains through spending on inefficient treatments and neglecting those which are more efficient. NICE attempts to assess the cost-effectiveness of potential expenditures within the NHS to assess whether or not they represent 'better value' for money than treatments that would be neglected if the expenditure took place. It assessess the cost effectiveness of new treatments by analysing the cost and benefit of the proposed treatment relative to the next best treatment that is currently in use [7]. NICE determines the most effective parameters for treatment use. [8].
Seversky
August 17, 2009
August
08
Aug
17
17
2009
04:37 PM
4
04
37
PM
PDT
Jerry, First, I'm sorry to hear about your friend. That would be an awful way to go.
You are quibbling over words to find the supposed contradictions and not dealing with the substance.
Well, it is true that my post didn't get into the substance of the debate. I was merely pointing out IBD's deceptive use, for rhetorical purposes, of the scary word "rationing".David v. Squatney
August 17, 2009
August
08
Aug
17
17
2009
04:25 PM
4
04
25
PM
PDT
But I believe there are other countries where that is not true and certain medical treatments are indeed rationed. Is this the proposed model for the new system? I haven’t been following the debate, but I was not under the impression that private treatment contracts would be barred, any more than they already are. There may be exceptions in the UK and even here in the US and one that comes to mind is transplants. Since they are relatively rare I do not know if even a large amount of money could get you one in certain circumstances. Not legally. A contract for the purchase or sale of an organ is illegal everywhere in the United States, so far as I know, and precedence on the transplant list is supposed to be an unsalable good. I don’t know about foreign jurisdictions, but I suspect that with enough money, you could get a grey-market transplant. So maybe here is a health item that is really rationed. As noted, all health items are “really rationed.” All items that can be bought or sold are “really rationed.” Economists use the word “rationing” to refer to the allocation of goods and services; in a free market, they are allocated to the party willing to pay the highest price. “Rationing” in the more colloquial sense is called “non-price rationing.” There was a provision in Hillary Care and there was some mention of it being possibly in the new bill that one could not buy additional insurance or even pay a doctor for a service if one was in the public program. Citation, please? Maybe the correct word to use is not “rationing” but “restricting” or maybe some other word. Find what is appropriate. But whatever it is there will be more of it in a public plan than if the whole system remains private. We do already ration healthcare, under all three definitions: it’s price-rationed (anyone can pay for most treatments); it’s partially price-rationed (most people cannot afford the market without risk-pooling, which subjects them to an insurer’s decisions about what treatments are cost-effective, and those decisions are only partially subject to external market forces); and in some sectors it’s fully non-price rationed (transplants). Would rationing under the new system actually be any different from the current system, from the perspective of a consumer who cannot currently afford expensive treatments without risk-pooling? It’s a complicated question, that requires a very complex economic analysis. Such analyses exist, but I haven’t read any. Have you?Learned Hand
August 17, 2009
August
08
Aug
17
17
2009
03:48 PM
3
03
48
PM
PDT
Yes, rationing is not used correctly in the IBD article because as I understand in the UK one can usually buy any medical treatment if one has the cost. But I believe there are other countries where that is not true and certain medical treatments are indeed rationed. There may be exceptions in the UK and even here in the US and one that comes to mind is transplants. Since they are relatively rare I do not know if even a large amount of money could get you one in certain circumstances. For example, I had an elderly friend die recently who because of 3 pack a day smoking had severe COPD (stopped smoking 11 years ago) and was scheduled for a lung transplant but was rejected at the last minute when he came down with prostrate cancer. One has to be cancer free for 5 years to get a transplant so he told me it was a death sentence. He was very depressed because he knew he might have 5-10 years or more to live if he got the transplant. So maybe here is a health item that is really rationed. But maybe if he had a couple million dollars to burn he would still be alive. I don't know. There was a provision in Hillary Care and there was some mention of it being possibly in the new bill that one could not buy additional insurance or even pay a doctor for a service if one was in the public program. In other words you could not pay to go to the head of the line or get the service outside the system. It was to be illegal. If that was true then indeed there would be real rationing as some bureaucrat decides who gets treatments. You are quibbling over words to find the supposed contradictions and not dealing with the substance. We can get into a discussion of what the word rationing means and I am sure if someone wanted to investigate all transactions in this country we could find many things that are truly rationed besides the transplants I just mentioned. Outside of the medical issues discussed, off the top of my head I can think of appointments to West Point or Annapolis are restricted or you could say rationed. I am sure there are others such as camp sites in the High Sierras during the summer or mineral leases in certain government lands, etc. Right now I am rationing a certain machine that has been discontinued (couple hundred still in inventory). I am restricting it to current customers only as a replacement if case their current machine breaks down. I had one guy who wanted to pay three times the price for one and I refused. So I am rationing. Maybe the correct word to use is not "rationing" but "restricting" or maybe some other word. Find what is appropriate. But whatever it is there will be more of it in a public plan than if the whole system remains private.jerry
August 17, 2009
August
08
Aug
17
17
2009
03:07 PM
3
03
07
PM
PDT
Jerry, One addendum to #42: If you believe that health care is not rationed in the US because you can always get it if you are willing and able to pay, then you must agree that the following sentence from the IBD piece is incorrect:
The controlling of medical costs in countries such as Britain through rationing, and the health consequences thereof are legendary.
If you have deep pockets, you get buy whatever health care you want in Britain, ergo no rationing.David v. Squatney
August 17, 2009
August
08
Aug
17
17
2009
01:48 PM
1
01
48
PM
PDT
Not true. Name one health care option that is rationed to the public. Name one person who could not get that health care option if they wanted it and had the means to pay for it. Do not pounce on the phrase ” the means to pay for it,” because every good in this country is rationed except for air and even in some places there is better air than others or cooler air or warmer air at a price. Even water is rationed by price. Housing, vacations, automobiles, education etc. are all rationed by the ability to pay for it.
Jerry, first you challenge me to name a health care option which is rationed, then in the next paragraph you concede that everything is rationed, except perhaps air. This makes no sense. Of course if you are willing and able to pay for it yourself, you will be able to buy any sort of health care you want, regardless of whether this reform passes or not.David v. Squatney
August 17, 2009
August
08
Aug
17
17
2009
12:09 PM
12
12
09
PM
PDT
"The point I was trying to make in my post is that health care is already rationed here in the US, in part by insurance companies." Not true. Name one health care option that is rationed to the public. Name one person who could not get that health care option if they wanted it and had the means to pay for it. Do not pounce on the phrase " the means to pay for it," because every good in this country is rationed except for air and even in some places there is better air than others or cooler air or warmer air at a price. Even water is rationed by price. Housing, vacations, automobiles, education etc. are all rationed by the ability to pay for it. If I have a terminal illness and there is a possibility that a treatment may work and it is not sanctioned by the insurance companies or the government, I have the right to buy that treatment if I can come up with the money. So health care is no different than other economic good. The reason is has become an issue is that so many new options are available to let us live longer and better that people want it. NO! They demand it as a right. They want it all and like every other so called right, they want other people to pay for it.jerry
August 17, 2009
August
08
Aug
17
17
2009
11:28 AM
11
11
28
AM
PDT
Daniel Hannan comments on British NHS and NICE: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2x1yD8vCmE He supports Singapore style system of individual healthcare accounts: http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danielhannan/100006356/interrupting-my-holiday-with-some-thoughts-on-the-nhs/tragic mishap
August 17, 2009
August
08
Aug
17
17
2009
10:24 AM
10
10
24
AM
PDT
I'd love to see healthcare reform, where you could buy health insurance like car insurance. health insurance should not be provided by your employer. but this 'healthcare' reform being pushed by the democrats isn't about healthcare, its about power people's lives...and making people utterly and totally dependent upon the government.tsmith
August 17, 2009
August
08
Aug
17
17
2009
06:21 AM
6
06
21
AM
PDT
oh yes I'm hoping for a wonderful system like they have in Britain, so I can see my new dentist, Dr. PLIARS!!tsmith
August 17, 2009
August
08
Aug
17
17
2009
06:18 AM
6
06
18
AM
PDT
lamarck, you may want to see this: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/31/movies/31russ.html?_r=1IRQ Conflict
August 16, 2009
August
08
Aug
16
16
2009
11:55 PM
11
11
55
PM
PDT
Insurance companies aren't the same as health care by force. You will be fined if you don't sign up for a plan which will of course eventually include buying into companies that got no bid contracts or something similar. Good luck starting a small business if you don't like their health care company options, which will OF COURSE if not at the outset than later give you less for more money because competition is gone. IT'S PRECEDENT SETTING. People don't get the founding fathers. Once their philosophy is explained to the average american, they want nothing to do with these radicals. The government isn't there to ensure public safety apart from foreign invasion. This wasn't laziness on Jefferson's part, this was necessity. Safety and health concerns are ALWAYS ALWAYS the trojan horse. Seatbelts laws too. Think libertarians don't like seatbelt laws in and of themselves? No, it's because that puts us on the slippery slope. Here's a blunt reality. People must die because of lack of safety regulation imposed by the government. Kids must be shot with guns they pulled out of the closet. School buses MUST be T-BONED by truckers because truckers weren't super regulated and hadn't slept in a day. The founding fathers insisted that these people must die, because otherwise you have cambodia or people butchered enmass in africa with machetes. Equivocation with this hard reality results in soft communism then genocide. A system that's good enough for the whole must be left alone, because man has never conceived of a better system and will only devolve into chaos otherwise. Government isn't a precise tool to effect social change except where it can be established to keep itself in check with competing equal powers almost completely.lamarck
August 16, 2009
August
08
Aug
16
16
2009
10:16 PM
10
10
16
PM
PDT
DATCG, Nice rant :D The point I was trying to make in my post is that health care is already rationed here in the US, in part by insurance companies. Therefore the argument that we shouldn't have health care reform because it will lead to rationing is bogus. A couple of links for your reading pleasure: http://www.businessweek.com/careers/workingparents/blog/archives/2009/06/rationing_healt.html http://covertrationingblog.com/introduction-to-the-covert-rationing-blogDavid v. Squatney
August 16, 2009
August
08
Aug
16
16
2009
09:53 PM
9
09
53
PM
PDT
DavidvS. "More to the point, isn’t it clear that these same sorts of decisions are made by health insurance companies (provided you are fortunate enough to have health insurance)?" Uh right, so your in favor of being forced into a government run rationed healthcare plan for yourself? You want to share this with the poor? You want your parents to wait for months or not get any healthcare at all? Or, would you rather have the opportunity to make decisions for yourself? To decide to not buy that sports car, or new sofa, or even a new house, but to determine to take care of your parents? I can see how the government taking over such processes lets many people off the hook. I know many people that could care less.
Sorry Mom, Dad, can't do anything about it. You'll just have to suffer cuz Uncle Sam is a Socialist nation now. Gee, I'd really like to work harder, earn more money to help you get better healthcare, but now that Uncle Sam's in charge I can't do nuthin bout it. Hey, did you guys make your wills yet? Yeah.. can I get that old cherry colored mustang when you die(ahmmm), I mean when you have a discussion with your "life consultant" euthanasia doctor Pop?
No thanks, I'd rather work hard and buy my own healthcare thanks and solve the existing problems 1 by 1 instead of SCRAPPING THE ENTIRE Free Market System! The current system that is the best in the world and that takes care of 90% of the people in America, plus illegals. Stupid is as Stupid does and Socialist are Stupid robots. I never thought Americans would become so dumbed down and ignorant to put themselves in chains to the government. While the Socialist Bureaucrats - they all get a waiver - and are on a totally different healthcare plan. No waiting periods, not rationed care. And benefits for life. So, I guess you want to work for the government? Or be a professor? Or teacher? Or even a union worker? The Unions had an exemption last time I looked. Though I doubt that stays. But hey, lets screw over the rest of American white collar workers, business owners, farmer joes and all those evil business people that actually produce goods and services. Even more to the real point. "Isn't it clear" that the Congress, the President, Judges, Federal Employees are exempt from this massive socialist takeover? Why? Why shouldn't they have to be rationed like everyone else? Should we all declared ourselves Socialist political bureaucrats today? Or Union workers? Whats the point of working in a private free enterprise if I cannot make my own choices? And am forced to pay for everyone elses insurance? This is not France and our Founding Fathers were much smarter than the humanist revolution there. They set out firm pillars for our nation to never come under the control of the government. By giving healthcare control over to the government, we become more enslaved. It is the stupidest idea ever for this nation, besided Cap and Tax Americans to death. There is a reason our nation became exceptional among all nations and why people risk their lives to leave communist nations from the four corners of the world to get to America. They see the shining light. They see the freedoms we enjoy. We do not need to follow the socialist failures around the world. Instead, we need to fix the specific problems of our current system, shut down our borders to illegals and shut down ambulance chasing lawyers from scamming billions off of doctors and hospitals. Or, we should all just close up our businesses, take up welfare and live on the dole of the government. Are you aware that 85% of people are happy with their healthcare? Are you aware that Obama/Dems refused to include Tort reform? Are you aware Doctors are paying as much as $200,000/year for malpractice? Are you aware as a result many doctors, including OBGYNs are dropping out due to the cost? Are you aware that Medicare/Medicaid is bankrupt? Are you aware that Obama/Dems want to cut $200 billion from MediCare? Are you aware that Medicare/Medicaid started out as a $60million a year budget item? And has ballooned into trillions? That the same healthcare plan they want to implement today is estimated 1.3 trillion or more? That no savings will be made in the budget? That our budget will balloon into an unsupportable busted wreck? I realize that Rahm Emanuel and Soros thugs love a crisis to make money and policy. But I'm not going to cooperate with a fugitive from france(Soros) or thugs from Chicago. I'm going to fight back against the elitist who think they own us. It is the American way, our forefathers and founding fathers all stood against this lunacy and set this nation on a direct opposite course from tyranny of the few over the masses. Are you aware our massive debt is hemorraghing so much that we have a Communist nation in China teaching us about finances now? Keynesian economics and spend, spend, spend is not the solution, neither is any healthcare system based upon Singer/Emanuel social construct that believes in killing the elderly off softly in favor of the 15-40yr groups. It is nothing but the return of Darwinian Eugenics programs, except the bigotry and prejudice this time is against the babies and the elderly. Pathetic. And curse all the media zealost who carried these peoples water during the election. This is ruining our nation and it will take decades to recover once these theives are gone from office.DATCG
August 16, 2009
August
08
Aug
16
16
2009
09:12 PM
9
09
12
PM
PDT
"Do you think health care coverage should be universal?" I do not have much time and this is a complicated problem. My answer is no. But something must be done for those who cannot pay and to those who opt out of insurance and something should be done to accommodate those with previous conditions. But a public health care system to me is anathema. And I am strongly against a system which legislates that all get identical health care. It also depends on what is meant by universal health care? There are lots of parameters. Should everyone has access to the best doctors or just an adequate list of doctors. Suppose you know there is a heart surgeon who is considered better than anyone else, does universal health coverage mean that he gets assigned cases by lottery and gets paid the same as everyone else. I would never want to live in such a system. I prefer the best get paid more and get to choose who they treat. My experience is that there is enough good doctors who would be willing to take some patients on a lottery basis, that is provide care to some unfortunate peoples who cannot afford a better insurance policy or afford to pay for high level treatment. I want them all to try to get a reputation that will bring people to them and pay them more because of their excellent treatment. The worst possible system is one where doctors get paid salaries unless they opt to do so. Every year new treatments and new drugs come on the market so does universal health care mean that everyone is eligible for every drug and every treatment. This is one of the two main drivers of cost increases and unless we stop medical and drug research, will continue ad infinitum. Should all have equal access. I don't believe so and if someone has enough money to pay for it, then so be it. For the rest of us, I don't have the money to pay for everything out there, if something came up I would have to weigh what resources I had against what it might do for me or a loved one. I have an elderly friend who spent nearly everything he had on making his mother comfortable (literally hundreds of thousands of dollars) and now he has nothing and ekes out a living on social security. So I have seen what it does to someone to spend all their resources on this but that was his choice. I am willing to limit what is available for me but I am not ready to provide those who are piggy and want everything and someone else to pay for it. If they have the money for the best doctors and best treatment, more power to them. Otherwise some form of adequate treatment should be the norm for those who cannot pay. I am far from an expert but there was a two tiered system proposed a few years ago which I am for. Everyone gets catastrophic care paid for by taxes and would cover pregnancy and treatment of severe previous conditions and would be run by private or as they are now proposing, non profit organizations. Take health care coverage away from business and let everyone pay for incidental health care out of pocket. People could also have the option to purchase with a tax deduction an insurance policy to cover every day expenses such a routine visit to the doctor or a broken leg etc. And if they are truly indigent, then subsidize them. But keep the government out of it except as a means of financing catastrophic care and the truly indigent. But catastrophic care does not mean care for everything. Such a debate is what should be going on in Washington, not a fiat fueled by a political ideology which is what was just attempted by Obama and the Democrat leadership in Congress. And I think the CBO should do an analysis based on the elimination of pain and suffering awards by the courts and the capping of legal fees for suits. It would be an eye opener.jerry
August 16, 2009
August
08
Aug
16
16
2009
08:10 PM
8
08
10
PM
PDT
Darn, wasn't finished... The amount of information vs. disinformation out there is as extreme as the notions themselves imo. I do know that I should oppose what I view as an attack on my conservative Judeo/Christian sensibilities. This, imo is the only way I know to keep a solid foundation under my thinking and reaction to apparent "conspiracies". I don't know, what do you think of the probability these 9/11 theories are true? Why?IRQ Conflict
August 16, 2009
August
08
Aug
16
16
2009
07:49 PM
7
07
49
PM
PDT
lamarck, regarding the video. These are some pretty extreme claims. If true, how can you prove it? Further, what could anyone do about it? I'm on the fence with this and still don't know if my head is stuck in the sand or not on these issues. The funny thing is, I can see people like this, having all the power and money playing the 'game' of control simply because of their unfulfilled and petty lives "dancing on strings of powers they cannot perceive". I do however think that the woman's lib thing is entirely plausible. It makes sense.IRQ Conflict
August 16, 2009
August
08
Aug
16
16
2009
07:44 PM
7
07
44
PM
PDT
American Thinker has a great article on the history of the US medical farce: "Furthermore, they grossly overstate the problem. We hear constantly about the "47 million uninsured." These figures include 10 to 25 million illegal immigrants, 14 million people who are already eligible for medical benefits but haven't availed themselves, and 10 million people earning $75,000 or more who could presumably afford their own insurance if they chose to. Even assuming the lowest estimate for illegal immigrants, the true number of uninsured would be only 13 million. Yet the Democrats want to nationalize the entire industry, currently 17 percent of GDP, to provide benefits to 4 percent of the U.S. population." http://www.americanthinker.com/2009/08/manufactured_healthcare_crisis.htmlIRQ Conflict
August 16, 2009
August
08
Aug
16
16
2009
07:26 PM
7
07
26
PM
PDT
I'm a little troubled that no one commented on the vid I posted on socialism. Why don't people listen? Here's another one. The health care debate is a power grab and a tax and that's it. The delicacies of "the greatest good" and the minutia of european vs. american medicine aren't on the REAL ruler's minds one bit. You're assuming near utopian results compared to the ACTUAL direction we're headed? "We are grateful to the Washington Post, The New York Times, Time Magazine and other great publications whose directors have attended our meetings and respected their promises of discretion for almost forty years. It would have been impossible for us to develop our plan for the world if we had been subjected to the lights of publicity during those years. But, the world is now more sophisticated and prepared to march towards a world government. The supranational sovereignty of an intellectual elite and world bankers is surely preferable to the national auto-determination practiced in past centuries."" David Rockefeller Baden-Baden, Germany 1991lamarck
August 16, 2009
August
08
Aug
16
16
2009
04:33 PM
4
04
33
PM
PDT
1 2

Leave a Reply