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[Offtopic:] A Different Culture War

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Muslim Gang Rapes and the Aussie Riots
By Sharon Lapkin
FrontPageMagazine.com | December 15, 2005

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Printable.asp?ID=20535

In Australia this week amidst anger over an Islamic man’s rape conviction and the bashing of two Aussie life savers, working-class locals erupted in a rampage of anger and brawling in some of the worst racial riots in decades. But there is more to the story than is being repeated in the American mainstream media….

Four days after he set foot in Australia, the rape spree began. And during his sexual assault trial in a New South Wales courtroom, the Pakistani man began to berate one of his tearful 14-year-old victims because she had the temerity to shake her head at his testimony.

But she had every reason to express her disgust. After taking an oath on the Qur’an, the man – known only as MSK – told the court he had committed four attacks on girls as young as 13 because they had no right to say “no.” They were not covering their face or wearing a headscarf, and therefore, the rapist proclaimed: “I’m not doing anything wrong.”

MSK is already serving a 22-year jail term for leading his three younger brothers in a gang rape of two other young Sydney girls in 2002. In his own defence, he argued that his cultural background, was responsible for his crimes.

And he is right.

In some parts of Pakistan, sexual assault – including gang rape – is officially sanctified as a legitimate form of enforcing the social value system.

One village council recently ordered that five young girls should be “abducted, raped or murdered” for refusing to be treated as chattel. The girls were aged between six and thirteen when they were married without their knowledge, to pay a family debt.

And when Mukhtar Mai’s 12-year-old brother was alleged to have committed an offence in a small Pakistani farming village, the village council ordered that his sister be gang-raped. So, she was taken to a hut where four men repeatedly assaulted her.

According to the Human Rights Commission of Pakistan there were 804 cases of such officially orchestrated sexual assault in 2000, and 434 of these were gang rapes. And if that isn’t bad enough, the victims of these atrocities are then expected to commit suicide because rape victims bring irreparable shame upon their family.

So as MSK committed his acts of rape while visiting Australia, he was simply perpetuating his own cultural heritage. He hails from a society where officially sanctioned sexual violence is commonly employed as a means to enforce the subservience of women.

And this is where two fundamental tenets of the modern Left clash: the irresistible force of cultural relativism collides with the immovable object of gender equality. But in the 21st century it is the latter that must prevail.

The laissez faire attitudes of cultural relativism are unacceptable in modern society. Female genital mutilation is not some quaint tribal custom that we are bound to respect: it is barbarism, pure and simple.

Yet many Western leftists habitually excuse these crimes against women in order to maintain political solidarity with their allies in the Islamic world. After all, it would be tough to make common cause with Muslim groups in the antiwar movement if Progressives began to criticize the practice of polygamy.

But along with Islamic immigration to the West have come Third World value systems regarding the treatment of women. We must not be seduced by the false tenets of cultural relativism into a toleration of forced marriages, officially sanctioned rape, and honour killings.

Australia’s unique brand of multiculturalism confers both rights and obligations: while cultural and linguistic diversity are to be cherished, every Australian must subscribe to a single standard of human rights. Australians must forcefully repudiate the corruption of the multicultural idea that would condone crimes against women and support jihadism.

The dangers of cultural relativism became evident Down Under last weekend when long-festering ethnic tensions erupted into violence at Cronulla Beach near Sydney. The trouble began when a group of Middle Eastern men were assaulted by mobs of angry locals. The local Member of Parliament, Bruce Baird MP, claimed the public outcry was revenge for the Bali bombings and September 11.

But Baird also explained that a series of high profile rapes in the area had spurred locals on and that a group of Middle Eastern men had attacked two Aussie lifesavers the previous weekend. Locals claimed to the media after the riots that they were sick of Lebanese Muslim gangs calling their daughters and wives names, and throwing cigarette butts at them.

Then neo-Nazis showed up in a transparent attempt to exploit local ethnic tensions for their own benefit. But mainstream Australians expressed their frustration with both the violence inflicted by Middle Eastern men, and the equally violent effort by white racists to exploit it.

While rejecting the tenets of neo-Nazism, working-class Aussies who live near Cronulla Beach were saying they’ve had enough of this culturally motivated crime wave in a wave of violence that is also unacceptable. The race riots in suburban Sydney represented a clash between two polar opposites of white supremacy and Islamic male supremacy. But the average Australian seeks a midpoint between these equally vile extremes in which fairness and a single standard of law will apply to all.

Comments
Peace, Ok, first to pmob1’s first post after mine… You say: - “Here’s some verses and a timeline of the first 67 years of “peace.” with Allah.” Yes Islam is a religion of peace, JUST peace. There is no peace when there is oppression or suppression of the truth and peoples’ desire for it. Islam is a practical religion, and there are times when war is needed to solve what cannot be solved otherwise. Regarding the timeline… I will not comment on the details at this point… But it should be noted that producing a timeline, does not explain the reasons for the battles. This would be interesting to check out. May do that in detail some day… There are always two sides… I have the biography of the Prophet Muhammad (it’s a biography that critically uses sources (critical of Hadith etc…)) by Muhammad Husein Haykal it deals with at the least the first number of battles… Must reread Inshallah (God willing) at some point. As a logical point. What they did, is now actually irrelevant to the discussion, because even IF they had unjust wars (our definitions may vary), unless you can prove that the Qur’an was the source of this, then you have proved nothing except that Muslims had some unjust wars in the past. To pmob1’s next comment: - You say: - “Mohammed reminds us of the old Prophets in some ways. Jesus is definitely something very different. ” What this tells us is that there is one person (according to the claims of his followers) is diverging from the prophets and their message before and after. Recall that Jesus is reported to have said: - "Do not think that I [Jesus] have come to abolish the Law (the Old Testament) or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke or a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law (the Old Testament) until everything is accomplished. (Matthew 5:17-18)" Which would seem to be a contradiction… Seeing as the prophets in the old testament did not preach the Christ (Hebrew Messiah, Arabic Massieh) crucified (to redeem all sins including the so called original sin) or the trinity… Anyway, my argument against the trinity is not historical in nature, but logical in nature… I’ll post my argument in my blog at some stage (I’m extremely busy this year…)… Next to ProudDarulHarbian: - You say: - “I get all my information from Islam from Islam’s brutal sources…ie Quran, Sira, Hadiths and so forth…” The Sira and Hadith cannot be taken at face value to any extent without critical historical analysis as they have the common weaknesses. Some sira are earlier that others… The books of Hadith are very poor Historical resources unless very critically analysed due to the huge amount of fabrication that has been included in their number. The source that acts as the criterion is none other than the Qur’an. Therefore, if you consider it a brutal source, I would ask you to justify this claim. Post here or on my blog as you please. You say: - “And folks take this into consideration when reading Marwan’s posts……he is a Quran only Muslim and thus a heretic from a Orthodox Muslim POV….these are muslims that constitute a very very tiny percentage of overall islam….” Correct. Yet since when has a majority opinion implied truth? The Qur’an says: - And if you obey most of those in the earth, they will lead you astray from Allah's way; they follow but conjecture and they only falsify. (Qur’an 6:116) You say: - “He is Quran only in the hope of avoiding the brutal teachings in the Sira and Hadiths and other writings of Muhammed……” Incorrect. I have taken this position because of (primarily) the fact that the Qur’an states that it is the totality of our guidance and that there is no other source, not the prophet, not anyone. I can amply substantiate this position. I will blog it at some point Allah willing. Secondarily, I adopt this position due to the poor historical preservation of the Hadith. Please read http://www.mostmerciful.com/hadithbook-sectionone.htm for some information in this regard. Avoiding unpleasantness in the hadith was the least of my concerns, and I can honestly say that I learned of most if not all of the absurdities in the Hadith AFTER I decided to do without them. You say: - “but this only confuses the issue further because the Quran without the additional writings is completely absurd…” I disagree, please present your evidence. You say: - “The Quran is neither chronologically or thematically ordered……it is a editor’s nightmare that to this day, Muslim scholars cannot still figure out how it is completely ordered….” The Qur’an is not a book of chronology (like the OT) and it is not ordered by theme. There are reasons for this, 1) It is not a history book, it is a book of guidance, and hence having a chronology from creation (Genesis) to whenever is irrelevant. And 2) A thematically ordered book can become tedious in any section that deal continuously with one topic, the Qur’an is masterful in its intertwining of many topics about a central purpose. Far from a nightmare, the Qur’an is a masterpiece. Please refer to http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Miracle/ and http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Q_Studies/Mirliter.html and http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Q_Studies/Mirshape.html and generally http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Q_Studies/ You say: - “Also consider this…..the Quran is avery very short book covering Muhammed’s false teachings for roughly 23 years” Well I obviously disagree with both pillars of this statement, that it is false or that it was of Muhammad’s concoction. Please refer to http://www.harunyahya.com/c_miracles_quran.php and http://asadi.95mb.com/koranfiles/ and for an excellent debate between a missionary and a Muslim on the topic please visit: - http://www.aswatalislam.net/DisplayFilesP.aspx?TitleID=50027&TitleName=Zakir_Naik and download the audio files titled Qur'an And Bible In The Light Of Science Vs Campbell (1 of 4 to 4 of 4)… Which refute the position that Muhammad concocted the Qur’an. you say: - “Consider in the Quran, that is shorter then the Greek Bible, that you have over 150 admonitions to kill and slaughter…..in such a short book mind you” Context, context and context… I have presented my paper and it is logical, so lets stop with the unsupported statements please. Feel free to refute my paper, I always value thoughtful criticism. You say: - “also the teachings of beating your wife are contained within” I disagree with this point, the word used (Dzarb) can be translated in numerous ways and is used in numerous ways in the Qur’an, one of them is beat, but is does not fit into the Qur’anic context in the verse referred to (I’ll put up a paper on my blog soon for this Allah willing) and so another meaning is used by me. The reason the beat translation is held mostly is because it is corroborated by the books of Hadith and not because it is tune with the Qur’an. (A common problem unfortunately). You say:- “the idea that women are a tilth too you” What is wrong with that? A man sows his seed in his wife, an analogy is being used here, why not? Lets not forget: - 1 Corinthians 11:3 “Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.” 1 Peter 3:5 “For this is the way the holy women of the past who put their hope in God used to make themselves beautiful. They were submissive to their own husbands,” 1 Timothy 2:12 “I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.” This is the NT. You say: - “also slaying the unbeleivers ad infinitum” yawn… again with the unfounded accusations… you say:- “Now do you think that all those muslims and their 1400 years of brutality have somehow misinterpreted Islam and that our friend here Marwan is telling the Truth???” I can say that it is more complicated than that. 1) The context of hostility must be analysed. Not all hostility is unjustified. 2) You cannot judge a book or a religion by its followers (I hope this is not contentious) 3) Unfortunately, the corpus of Hadith has had a negative influence for quite some time, anywhere from 1200 years to 1300 years ago… which obviously affected the accuracy of the beliefs of most Muslims… 4) I AM telling the truth simply because my source is the most truthful, foundational and important Islamic text. By resorting to the most truthful text, I maximise the truthfulness of my statements. Had I on the other hand resorted to made up Hadith, then the accusation of falsehood on my behalf would hold some water. You say: - “Western Muslims are forever distorting and presenting Islam as nothing more then a bunch of misunderstood peaceful boy scouts” For once I agree with you J!!! I do believe that western Muslims have no spine and they do sanitise Islam to suite their secular overlords (Dramatic language I know…) You say: - “Make no mistake….Marwan is either ignorant of Orthodox Islam or is making up stories” Neither is true. I am familiar with orthodox Islam, I simply do not ascribe to it due to its false teachings based upon false sources. I make up no stories, please refrain from personal insults. .. It would help to make exchanges such as these more pleasant. You say: - “and too be fair, most Muslims themselves are not aware of how beastly Muhammed was and his Islam so ignorance could be the issue here….” How nice of you to try your hand at fairness, im sorry to report that you have failed at this attempt, but don’t let that discourage you in the future, fairness is good. I would restate it as follows. Most Muslims are ignorant of the falsehood that has been incorporated into Islam by the false sources that are the opinions of scholars (fatwas) and the Hadith literature. You say: - “Folks….all you have too do is read the Quran if you can get through this horrifically turgid, repititive and violent book…..its all there…….and then work your way through the Sunnah of Islam ……” Obviously I would disagree with your characterisation of the Qur’an… Yes, people should read the Qur’an and then compare with the sunnah to see the massive difference. You say: - “I mean no anger or personal attacks on our Muslim friends….I only attack Islam…..for it deserves our scorn…” Falsehood deserves scorn… Islam does not. Ignorance deserves correction and not scorn. And so I hope I am helping to correct you… To pmob1 again: - You say: - “Christianity: freedom choice redemption Islam: submission submission submission ” Here is my take on it… Christianity: Illogical doctrine requiring blind faith from the very start. Btw, it requires belief or damnation (that is, if one does not accept that Jesus supposedly died for the sins of mankind, he cannot be saved.) Islam: Logical doctrine allowing choice and encouraging submission to the Creator of all that is, AND NO ONE ELSE. Back to ProudDarulHarbian: - You say: - “I am only targetting Islam for when it is taken literally, we end up with Hamas, Bin Ladin, Hizballah, Wahhabism, GIA in Algeria and so forth…..” I am a literalist all the way. And it is logical, coherent and just. You say: - “I grew up with Muslims and even my first gal was a Sunni from Turkey who taught me about Islam and Ataturk” She was not very observant to have had a boyfriend. That is totally forbidden Qur’anically (for both men and women) You say: - “But I will target Orthodox Islam whether in its Sunni or Shia forms” If you wanna attack the Hadith portion of Islam, then great, it deserves it. Much absurdity is there to be attacked. Your attacks on the Qur’an are misguided though… And finally to pmob1 (phew!!!!): - You say: - “Thanks for the verses. I’ll check them out” Great, that can only be good. You say: - “So you would say Islam immediately scoured the world with armies because it was suddenly attacked by the whole world around 632?” Quite possibly, why not. A radical message of monotheism and justice was coming in conflict with idolatry and injustice and the societies which held these positions. You say: - “How could far-flung peoples attack it when they didn’t know it existed yet?” Because as the borders of Islamic lands expanded to encompass their enemies, new enemies who were further away before would suddenly be bordering…Makes sense? Probably. But hey, Ive got some history homework eh?! ;-)… You say: - “Also, I am getting drawn away from my original question about the essential idolatry of Islam, i.e. worship of the Kaaba, a big black rock. It is true that you folks worship a rock? I understand that everyone bows down 5 times a day and faces this rock…” The Ka’bah is not worshipped, it is merely taken as a unified direction for Muslims to direct themselves in prayer, a Qiblah. Much like Christians face Jerusalem (I think) and in the OT too: - "Now when Daniel knew that the writing was signed, he went into his house; and his windows being open in his chamber toward Jerusalem (old qibla), he kneeled upon his knees three times a day, and prayed, and gave thanks before his God, as he did afortime." (Daniel 6:10) Also, its not a big black rock, it’s a cube building covered with a black cloth. Also, Qur’anically, Muslims should pray 3 times a day. Refer to my Salaat in the Qur’an document on my blog for full details. Well, that took some time… I am a busy guy folks… Anyway, I hope I have helped. Peace.Truth_Seeker
December 20, 2005
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Peace, Ok, first to pmob1’s first post after mine… You say: - “Here’s some verses and a timeline of the first 67 years of “peace.” with Allah.” Yes Islam is a religion of peace, JUST peace. There is no peace when there is oppression or suppression of the truth and peoples’ desire for it. Islam is a practical religion, and there are times when war is needed to solve what cannot be solved otherwise. Regarding the timeline… I will not comment on the details at this point… But it should be noted that producing a timeline, does not explain the reasons for the battles. This would be interesting to check out. May do that in detail some day… There are always two sides… I have the biography of the Prophet Muhammad (it’s a biography that critically uses sources (critical of Hadith etc…)) by Muhammad Husein Haykal it deals with at the least the first number of battles… Must reread Inshallah (God willing) at some point. As a logical point. What they did, is now actually irrelevant to the discussion, because even IF they had unjust wars (our definitions may vary), unless you can prove that the Qur’an was the source of this, then you have proved nothing except that Muslims had some unjust wars in the past. To pmob1’s next comment: - You say: - “Mohammed reminds us of the old Prophets in some ways. Jesus is definitely something very different. ” What this tells us is that there is one person (according to the claims of his followers) is diverging from the prophets and their message before and after. Recall that Jesus is reported to have said: - "Do not think that I [Jesus] have come to abolish the Law (the Old Testament) or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke or a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law (the Old Testament) until everything is accomplished. (Matthew 5:17-18)" Which would seem to be a contradiction… Seeing as the prophets in the old testament did not preach the Christ (Hebrew Messiah, Arabic Massieh) crucified (to redeem all sins including the so called original sin) or the trinity… Anyway, my argument against the trinity is not historical in nature, but logical in nature… I’ll post my argument in my blog at some stage (I’m extremely busy this year…)… Next to ProudDarulHarbian: - You say: - “I get all my information from Islam from Islam’s brutal sources…ie Quran, Sira, Hadiths and so forth…” The Sira and Hadith cannot be taken at face value to any extent without critical historical analysis as they have the common weaknesses. Some sira are earlier that others… The books of Hadith are very poor Historical resources unless very critically analysed due to the huge amount of fabrication that has been included in their number. The source that acts as the criterion is none other than the Qur’an. Therefore, if you consider it a brutal source, I would ask you to justify this claim. Post here or on my blog as you please. You say: - “And folks take this into consideration when reading Marwan’s posts……he is a Quran only Muslim and thus a heretic from a Orthodox Muslim POV….these are muslims that constitute a very very tiny percentage of overall islam….” Correct. Yet since when has a majority opinion implied truth? The Qur’an says: - And if you obey most of those on earth, they will lead you astray from Allah's way; they follow but conjecture and they only falsify. (Qur’an 6:116) You say: - “He is Quran only in the hope of avoiding the brutal teachings in the Sira and Hadiths and other writings of Muhammed……” Incorrect. I have taken this position because of (primarily) the fact that the Qur’an states that it is the totality of our guidance and that there is no other source, not the prophet, not anyone. I can amply substantiate this position. I will blog it at some point Allah willing. Secondarily, I adopt this position due to the poor historical preservation of the Hadith. Please read http://www.mostmerciful.com/hadithbook-sectionone.htm for some information in this regard. Avoiding unpleasantness in the hadith was the least of my concerns, and I can honestly say that I learned of most if not all of the absurdities in the Hadith AFTER I decided to do without them. You say: - “but this only confuses the issue further because the Quran without the additional writings is completely absurd…” I disagree, please present your evidence. You say: - “The Quran is neither chronologically or thematically ordered……it is a editor’s nightmare that to this day, Muslim scholars cannot still figure out how it is completely ordered….” The Qur’an is not a book of chronology (like the OT) and it is not ordered by theme. There are reasons for this, 1) It is not a history book, it is a book of guidance, and hence having a chronology from creation (Genesis) to whenever is irrelevant. And 2) A thematically ordered book can become tedious in any section that deal continuously with one topic, the Qur’an is masterful in its intertwining of many topics about a central purpose. Far from a nightmare, the Qur’an is a masterpiece. Please refer to http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Miracle/ and http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Q_Studies/Mirliter.html and http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Q_Studies/Mirshape.html and generally http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Q_Studies/ You say: - “Also consider this…..the Quran is avery very short book covering Muhammed’s false teachings for roughly 23 years” Well I obviously disagree with both pillars of this statement, that it is false or that it was of Muhammad’s concoction. Please refer to http://www.harunyahya.com/c_miracles_quran.php and http://asadi.95mb.com/koranfiles/ etc...and for an excellent debate between a missionary and a Muslim on the topic please visit: - http://www.aswatalislam.net/DisplayFilesP.aspx?TitleID=50027&TitleName=Zakir_Naik and download the audio files titled Qur'an And Bible In The Light Of Science Vs Campbell (1 of 4 to 4 of 4)… Which refute the position that Muhammad concocted the Qur’an. you say: - “Consider in the Quran, that is shorter then the Greek Bible, that you have over 150 admonitions to kill and slaughter…..in such a short book mind you” Context, context and context… I have presented my paper and it is logical, so lets stop with the unsupported statements please. Feel free to refute my paper, I always value thoughtful criticism. You say: - “also the teachings of beating your wife are contained within” I disagree with this point, the word used (Dzarb) can be translated in numerous ways and is used in numerous ways in the Qur’an, one of them is beat, but is does not fit into the Qur’anic context in the verse referred to (I’ll put up a paper on my blog soon for this Allah willing) and so another meaning is used by me. The reason the beat translation is held mostly is because it is corroborated by the books of Hadith and not because it is tune with the Qur’an. (A common problem unfortunately). You say:- “the idea that women are a tilth too you” What is wrong with that? A man sows his seed in his wife, an analogy is being used here, why not? Lets not forget: - 1 Corinthians 11:3 “Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.” 1 Peter 3:5 “For this is the way the holy women of the past who put their hope in God used to make themselves beautiful. They were submissive to their own husbands,” 1 Timothy 2:12 “I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.” This is the NT. You say: - “also slaying the unbeleivers ad infinitum” yawn… again with the unfounded accusations… you say:- “Now do you think that all those muslims and their 1400 years of brutality have somehow misinterpreted Islam and that our friend here Marwan is telling the Truth???” I can say that it is more complicated than that. 1) The context of hostility must be analysed. Not all hostility is unjustified. 2) You cannot judge a book or a religion by its followers (I hope this is not contentious) 3) Unfortunately, the corpus of Hadith has had a negative influence for quite some time, anywhere from 1200 years to 1300 years ago… which obviously affected the accuracy of the beliefs of most Muslims… 4) I AM telling the truth simply because my source is the most truthful, foundational and important Islamic text. By resorting to the most truthful text, I maximise the truthfulness of my statements. Had I on the other hand resorted to made up Hadith, then the accusation of falsehood on my behalf would hold some water. You say: - “Western Muslims are forever distorting and presenting Islam as nothing more then a bunch of misunderstood peaceful boy scouts” For once I agree with you!!! I do believe that western Muslims have no spine and they do sanitise Islam to suite their secular overlords (Dramatic language I know…) You say: - “Make no mistake….Marwan is either ignorant of Orthodox Islam or is making up stories” Neither is true. I am familiar with orthodox Islam, I simply do not ascribe to it due to its false teachings based upon false sources. I make up no stories, please refrain from personal insults. .. It would help to make exchanges such as these more pleasant. You say: - “and too be fair, most Muslims themselves are not aware of how beastly Muhammed was and his Islam so ignorance could be the issue here….” How nice of you to try your hand at fairness, im sorry to report that you have failed at this attempt, but don’t let that discourage you in the future, fairness is good. I would restate it as follows. Most Muslims are ignorant of the falsehood that has been incorporated into Islam by the false sources that are the opinions of scholars (fatwas) and the Hadith literature. You say: - “Folks….all you have too do is read the Quran if you can get through this horrifically turgid, repititive and violent book…..its all there…….and then work your way through the Sunnah of Islam ……” Obviously I would disagree with your characterisation of the Qur’an… Yes, people should read the Qur’an and then compare with the sunnah to see the massive difference. You say: - “I mean no anger or personal attacks on our Muslim friends….I only attack Islam…..for it deserves our scorn…” Falsehood deserves scorn… Islam does not. Ignorance deserves correction and not scorn. And so I hope I am helping to correct you… To pmob1 again: - You say: - “Christianity: freedom choice redemption Islam: submission submission submission ” Here is my take on it… Christianity: Illogical doctrine requiring blind faith from the very start. Btw, it requires belief or damnation (that is, if one does not accept that Jesus supposedly died for the sins of mankind, he cannot be saved. (I hope this is accurate)) Islam: Logical doctrine allowing choice (refer to war in Islam document on this blog and my own) and encouraging submission to the Creator of all that is, AND NO ONE ELSE. Back to ProudDarulHarbian: - You say: - “I am only targetting Islam for when it is taken literally, we end up with Hamas, Bin Ladin, Hizballah, Wahhabism, GIA in Algeria and so forth…..” I am a literalist all the way. And it is logical, coherent and just. You say: - “I grew up with Muslims and even my first gal was a Sunni from Turkey who taught me about Islam and Ataturk” She was not very observant to have had a boyfriend. That is totally forbidden Qur’anically (for both men and women) You say: - “But I will target Orthodox Islam whether in its Sunni or Shia forms” If you wanna attack the Hadith portion of Islam, then great, it deserves it. Much absurdity is there to be attacked. Your attacks on the Qur’an are misguided though… And finally to pmob1 (phew!!!!): - You say: - “Thanks for the verses. I’ll check them out” Great, that can only be good. You say: - “So you would say Islam immediately scoured the world with armies because it was suddenly attacked by the whole world around 632?” Quite possibly, why not. A radical message of monotheism and justice was coming in conflict with idolatry and injustice and the societies which held these positions. You say: - “How could far-flung peoples attack it when they didn’t know it existed yet?” Because as the borders of Islamic lands expanded to encompass their enemies, new enemies who were further away before would suddenly be bordering…Makes sense? Probably. But hey, Ive got some history homework eh?! ;-)… You say: - “Also, I am getting drawn away from my original question about the essential idolatry of Islam, i.e. worship of the Kaaba, a big black rock. It is true that you folks worship a rock? I understand that everyone bows down 5 times a day and faces this rock…” The Ka’bah is not worshipped, it is merely taken as a unified direction for Muslims to direct themselves in prayer, a Qiblah. Much like Christians face Jerusalem (I think) and in the OT too: - "Now when Daniel knew that the writing was signed, he went into his house; and his windows being open in his chamber toward Jerusalem (old qibla), he kneeled upon his knees three times a day, and prayed, and gave thanks before his God, as he did afortime." (Daniel 6:10) Also, its not a big black rock, it’s a cube building covered with a black cloth. Also, Qur’anically, Muslims should pray 3 times a day. Refer to my Salaat in the Qur’an document on my blog for full details. Well, that took some time… I am a busy guy folks… Anyway, I hope I have helped. Peace.Truth_Seeker
December 20, 2005
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pmob, as already stated the Kaaba is not a rock, it is a temple building from pre-islamic arabia. There is a black stone attached to one of the walls which is revered and kinda worshipped, it is thought to be a shivalingam (hindu idol) by many people especially hindus as it looks like one and there were many Indians in mecca, shivalingams were often used as conerstones or buried in the foundation or walls of many ancient and modern hindu temples. In Mecca at the time of the prophet Muhammed the Kaaba was a temple for the religion of the meccans and contained 360 idols (repesenting the days of the year, for astrological purposes every idol represented an aspect of God for that particular day). http://kaaba.biography.ms/ The reason muslims worship at mecca is because Muhammed was a meccan and he was thrown out of mecca. When he came back he took over and replaced the central religious practices while keeping the central temple of the meccans. The Kaaba was the central temple and in hindu fashion (to this day) it was circumnambulated 7 times in a clockwise direction as a purificatory rite. So Muhammed smashed all the idols and took over the temple as a sign of his taking power to the meccan people who had rejected him earlier. He kept the Kaaba as the central point of their enforced religion and the circling of the Kaaba was kept as well, except done in a counter clockwise direction. The Islamic story is that the Kaaba is revered because it was built by Adam and rebuilt by Abrahama and Noah.mentok
December 20, 2005
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Marwan, Thanks for the verses. I’ll check them out. So you would say Islam immediately scoured the world with armies because it was suddenly attacked by the whole world around 632? How could far-flung peoples attack it when they didn’t know it existed yet? Also, I am getting drawn away from my original question about the essential idolatry of Islam, i.e. worship of the Kaaba, a big black rock. It is true that you folks worship a rock? I understand that everyone bows down 5 times a day and faces this rock…pmob1
December 20, 2005
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An Addendum... Marwan, you seem like a nice chap and I want too say that most Muslims I am sure are moderate decent people.........I am only targetting Islam for when it is taken literally, we end up with Hamas, Bin Ladin, Hizballah, Wahhabism, GIA in Algeria and so forth..... I grew up with Muslims and even my first gal was a Sunni from Turkey who taught me about Islam and Ataturk........and my best friends growing up were muslims from Trinidad and they and their whole family are wonderful people.......I want you too understand that I am making a dichotomy between Islam and its 1 billion followers........ I will not broadbrush all muslims as fanatics like Hamas or Bin Ladin....thankfully those are a minority....But I will target Orthodox Islam whether in its Sunni or Shia forms.....Thankfully most Muslims the world over do not take every teaching of Muhammed literally today!!ProudDarulHarbian
December 20, 2005
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Marwan, You write: "...why is christianity superior to Islam..." Christianity: freedom choice redemption Islam: submission submission submissionpmob1
December 20, 2005
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Marwan, I get all my information from Islam from Islam's brutal sources...ie Quran, Sira, Hadiths and so forth... And folks take this into consideration when reading Marwan's posts......he is a Quran only Muslim and thus a heretic from a Orthodox Muslim POV....these are muslims that constitute a very very tiny percentage of overall islam.... He is Quran only in the hope of avoiding the brutal teachings in the Sira and Hadiths and other writings of Muhammed......but this only confuses the issue further because the Quran without the additional writings is completely absurd... The Quran is neither chronologically or thematically ordered......it is a editor's nightmare that to this day, Muslim scholars cannot still figure out how it is completely ordered.... Also consider this.....the Quran is avery very short book covering Muhammed's false teachings for roughly 23 years .......its context is limited to this short time and only to a small part of the levant... Consider in the Quran, that is shorter then the Greek Bible, that you have over 150 admonitions to kill and slaughter.....in such a short book mind you......also the teachings of beating your wife are contained within, the idea that women are a tilth too you.....also slaying the unbeleivers ad infinitum.... You see, it wouldn't be so bad in the Quran if Muhammed and his cohorts in crime simply limited all the gore and murder to that particular time.......but incredibly, over and over and over again the admonitions are not only historical, but they are prescriptive for all TIME.....in other words, Muslims can wreak havoc ad infinitum and they have done so for 1400 years.......REMEMBER this folks, that within 100 years of Muhammed's poisened induced death, that his maniacal followers had made it too the gates of Tours in France because of the deranged teachings in the Quran...THAT is historical fact..... Now do you think that all those muslims and their 1400 years of brutality have somehow misinterpreted Islam and that our friend here Marwan is telling the Truth??? Hardly....Western Muslims are forever distorting and presenting Islam as nothing more then a bunch of misunderstood peaceful boy scouts........this is how Islam gets idiotic westerners to convert.....by not telling the whole brutal truth that is the Quran ...... Make no mistake....Marwan is either ignorant of Orthodox Islam or is making up stories..........and too be fair, most Muslims themselves are not aware of how beastly Muhammed was and his Islam so ignorance could be the issue here.... Folks....all you have too do is read the Quran if you can get through this horrifically turgid, repititive and violent book.....its all there.......and then work your way through the Sunnah of Islam ...... Thankfully, we are seeing Millions of Muslim bravely leaving Islam throughout Persia and the former Soviet Union and even among the Great Kurdish and Berber peoples.......and not too mention African Muslims where Islam is wonderfully hemoraging.... I mean no anger or personal attacks on our Muslim friends....I only attack Islam.....for it deserves our scorn.... ThanksProudDarulHarbian
December 20, 2005
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Marwan, Your points on the Trinity are well taken. They have been argued by Christians for a long time. There is the old joke that ends with the Rabbi saying: “Why should I get it retail when I can get it wholesale?” Christianity is, indeed, a religion full of intercessors. The Reformation was an attempt to break with some of these, perhaps in the way Jesus broke from the Pharisees and moneychangers. You wrote: Edward Gibbon says: “The Roman Christians, ignorant of his (Christ’s) birth, fixed the solemn festival to the 25th of December, the Brumalia, or Winter Solstice, when the Pagans annually celebrated the birth of Sol” Yes. The 25th was formerly a Mithras celebration. Christians elsewhere celebrated the birth on other days or not at all. Easter, the death-resurrection day, was top dog for hundreds of years. Christmas, with its birth-incarnation theme, is now at least equal. Mohammed reminds us of the old Prophets in some ways. Jesus is definitely something very different.pmob1
December 20, 2005
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Marwan, Here’s some verses and a timeline of the first 67 years of “peace.” with Allah. It is not for any Prophet to have captives until he hath made slaughter in the land. Smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger tips of them." Take him and fetter him and expose him to hell fire. And then insert him in a chain whereof the length is seventy cubits. Lo! he used not to believe in God the tremendous, and urged not on the feeding of the wretched. Therefore hath he no lover hear this day nor any food save filth which none but sinners eat." The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet and alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. -- • 626: Expedition of Banu Mustaliq. • 627: Battle of the Trench. Killing and enslavement of Banu Quraiza Jews. • 628: Treaty of Hudaybiyya. Battle of Khyber. Muhammad sends letters to various heads of states. • 629: Muhammad pilgrimage to Mecca. Expedition to Mu'ta. • 630: Conquest of Mecca. Battle of Hunayn. Battle of Auras. Siege of al-Ta'if. • 631: Battle of Tabouk, Ghassanids • 632: Farewell pilgrimage at Mecca. • 632: Death of Muhammad. Abu Bakr assumes power as Caliph. Battles of Zu Qissa.Battles of Zu Abraq. Battle of Buzakha. Battle of Zafar. Battle of Naqra. Campaigns against Bani Tamim and Mosailima. • 633: Campaigns in Bahrain, Oman, Yemen, and Hadramaut. Raids in Iraq.Battle of Kazima, Battle of Mazar, Battle of Walaja, Battle of Ulleis, Battle of Hirah, Battle of Anbar, Battle of Ein, Battle of Daumatul Jandal, Battle of Firaz. • 634: Battle of Basra, Battle of Damascus, Battle of Ajnadin. Death of Abu Bakr. Umar ibn al-Khattab becomes the Caliph. Battle of Namaraq, Battle of Saqatia. • 635: Battle of Bridge, Battle of Buwaib, Conquest of Damascus, Battle of Fahl. • 636: Battle of Yarmuk, Battle of Qadsiyia, Conquest of Madain. • 637: Conquest of Syria, Conquest of Jerusalem, Battle of Jalula. • 638: Conquest of Jazirah. • 639: Conquest of Khuizistan. Advance into Egypt. • 640: Battle of Babylon in Egypt. • 641: Battle of Nihawand; Conquest of Alexandria in Egypt. • 642: Battle of Rayy in Persia; Conquest of Egypt. • 643: Conquest of Azarbaijan and Tabaristan (Russia). • 644: Conquest of Fars, Kerman, Sistan, Mekran and Kharan. Death of Umar. Uthman ibn Affan becomes the Caliph. • 646: Campaigns in Khurasan, Armeain and Asia Minor. • 647: Campaigns in North Africa. Conquest of the island of Cyprus. • 648: Campaigns against the Byzantines. • 651: Naval battle of the Masts against the Byzantines. • 652: Disaffection against the rule of Uthman. • 656: Uthman is killed. Ali ibn Abi Talib becomes the Caliph. Battle of the Camel. • 657: Ali shifts the capital from Medina to Kufa. Battle of Siffin. • 658: Battle of Nahrawan. • 659: Conquest of Egypt by Muawiyah I. • 660: Ali recaptures Hijaz and Yemen from Muawiyah. Muawiyah I declares himself as the Caliph at Damascus. • 661: Ali killed. Accession of Hasan bin Ali and his abdication. Muawiyah becomes the sole Caliph. • 662: Kharijites revolts. • 666: Raid of Sicily. • 670: Advance in North Africa. Uqba bin Nafe founds the town of Qairowan in Tunisia. Conquest of Kabul. • 672: Capture of the island of Rhodes. Campaigns in Khurasan. • 674: The Muslims cross the Oxus. Bukhara becomes a vassal state. • 677: Occupation of Samarkand and Tirmiz. Siege of Constantinople. • 680: Death of Muawiyah. Yazid I becomes Caliph. Battle of Karbala and Husayn bin Ali is killed. • 682: North Africa Uqba bin Nafe marches to the Atlantic, is ambushed and killed at Biskra. The Muslims evacuate Qairowan and withdraw to Burqa. • 683: Death of Yazid. Muawiya II becomes Caliph. • 684: Abd Allah ibn Zubayr declares himself as the Caliph at Mecca. Marwan I becomes the Caliph at Damascus. Battle of Marj Rahat. • 685: Death of Marwan I. Abd al-Malik becomes the Caliph at Damascus. Battle of Ain ul Wada. • 686: Al-Mukhtar declares himself as the Caliph at Kufa. • 687: Battle of Kufa between the forces of Mukhtar and Abd Allah ibn Zubayr. Mukhtar killed. • 691: Battle of Deir ul Jaliq. Kufa falls to Abdul Malik. • 692: The fall of Mecca. Death of ibn Zubayr. Abdul Malik becomes the sole Caliph. • 695: Kharijites revolts in Jazira and Ahwaz. Battle of the Karun. Campaigns against Kahina in North Africa. The Muslims once again withdraw to Barqa. The Muslims advance in Transoxiana and occupy Kish. • 700: Campaigns against the Berbers in North Africa.pmob1
December 20, 2005
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It seems the two posting Bible believers have no qualms about making disrespectful and ignorant remarks... If you want to present both sides of the topic and not just the biased and illogical faithfreedom, please refer to www.answering-christianity.com/ac.htm and www.islamic-awareness.org and www.understanding-islam.com. I am truely amazed by how ignorant the comments have been, with decided attempts to offend... How would you like it if i got all my information on christianity from disgruntled, ignorant and foul mouthed christian apostates? Because that is your method. Just to leave you with a taste of your ignorance... Here is a paper I wrote on war on islam that soundly refutes your bloosthirsty accusations... Unlike the 'turn the other cheek' methodology which is totally impracticable in a world of evil, the Qur'an is a manual for living in the real world... WAR IN ISLAM. To find out the Islamic truth on this issue, one must analyze the Qur’an. Let us look at Noble Verses 15:2-3 "Again and again will those who disbelieve, wish that they had bowed (to God's will) in Islam. Leave them alone, to enjoy (the good things of this life) and to please themselves: let (false) hope amuse them: soon will knowledge (undeceive them)." Let us look at Noble Verses 10:99-100 "If it had been thy Lord's will, they would all have believed, all who are on earth! wilt thou then compel mankind, against their will, to believe! No soul can believe, except by the will of God, and He will place doubt (or obscurity) on those who will not understand." Let us look at Noble Verse 18:29 "Say, 'The truth is from your Lord': Let him who will believe, and let him who will, reject (it): for the wrong doers We have prepared a Fire whose (smoke and flames), like the walls and roof of a tent, will hem them in: if they implore relief they will be granted water like melted brass, that will scald their faces, how dreadful the drink! How uncomfortable a couch to recline on!" Let us look at Noble Verse 27:92 "And to rehearse the Qur'an: and if any accept guidance, they do it for the good of their own souls, and if any stray, say: 'I am only a Warner.'" Let us look at Noble Verse 10:99 "If it had been thy Lord's will, they would all have believed,- all who are on earth! wilt thou then compel mankind, against their will, to believe!" Allah Almighty doesn't like us to compel people into belief. "Say: 'Behold all that is in the heavens and on earth'; but neither Signs nor Warners profit those who believe not. Do they then expect (any thing) but (what happened in) the days of the men who passed away before them? Say: 'Wait ye then: for I, too, will wait with you.” (The Noble Quran, 10:101-102) Notice how Allah Almighty orders us to say "Wait" to those who reject Islam. This clearly says that we can't force anyone into Islam, or punish anyone for leaving Islam. Let us look at Noble Verse 10:108 "Say: 'O ye men! Now Truth hath reached you from your Lord! those who receive guidance, do so for the good of their own souls; those who stray, do so to their own loss: and I am not (set) over you to arrange your affairs.'" Whoever believes benefits his soul and whoever doesn't, harms it, and Prophet Muhammad is not in charge of people to arrange their affairs. Only Allah Almighty is. "Say: 'Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger: but if ye turn away, he is only responsible for the duty placed on him and ye for that placed on you. If ye obey him, ye shall be on right guidance. The Messenger's duty is only to preach the clear (Message). (Qur’an, 24:54)" Prophet Muhammad's duty was only to preach. "And those who take as protectors others besides Him - Allah doth watch over them; and thou art not the disposer of their affairs. (Qur’an, 42:6)" Again, Allah Almighty here told Prophet Muhammad that he has no authority over those who reject Islam. Let us look at Noble Verse 2:256 "Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy handhold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things." The Holy Quran prohibits Muslims to force any person into Islam. Muslims must not let people resent Islam and Muslims. They must leave people decide for themselves because the "Truth stands out clear from error" (2:256). Compulsion is incompatible with religion: Because (1) religion depends upon faith and will, and these would be meaningless by force; (2) Truth and Error have been so clearly shown up by the mercy of Allah Almighty that there should be no doubt in the minds of any persons of good will as to the fundamentals of faith; (3) Allah Almighty's protection is continuous, and His Plan is always to lead us from the depths of darkness into the clearest light. I give you these verses so that you may know that Islam is a religion of maximum justice, even to those who reject the Almighty creator. I invite you to accept the content of the above verses as reflecting the spirit of the Qur’an on this topic. If you feel that I have neglected a ‘telling’ verse, please bring it to my attention and I will send you a response (God/Allah willing). So when can a Muslim fight so that he can take someone’s life? I shall give a few verses that will clarify this issue and I will also deal with a regularly quoted (or misquoted) verses in the holy Qur’an. Please note that from the verses below we can see the guidelines for war, guidelines that must be followed by Muslims. Muslims are forbidden from attacking others who do not attack them (* this is qualified soon): "Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God loveth not transgressors. (Qur’an, 2:190)" Fighting in the cause of GOD Almighty those who fight us is a duty for Muslims. I can't go and kill a non-Muslim just because he is a non-Muslim. That is absolutely forbidden in Islam: "Those who invoke not, with God, any other god, nor slay such life as God has made sacred except for just cause, nor commit fornication; - and any that does this (not only) meets punishment. (But) the Penalty on the Day Of Judgement will be doubled To him, and he will dwell Therein in ignominy. (Qur’an, 25:68-69)" “The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;” (Qur’an, 5:33) War can only be declared when the Muslims are attacked (*this is qualified soon). Muslims are not allowed to attack those who do not attack them. And even when war breaks out, if the enemy offers an honest peace, then we should accept it and end the bloodshed: "But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in God: for He is One that heareth and knoweth (all things). (Qur’an, 8:61)" And if a treaty of peace was made, then we must honor that treaty to the end: "Except those who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty (of peace), or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. If God had pleased, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you: Therefore if they withdraw from you but fight you not, and (instead) send you (Guarantees of) peace, then God Hath opened no way for you (to war against them). (Qur’an, 4:90)" "How can there be a league, before God and His Apostle, with the idolators, except those with whom ye made a treaty near the sacred Mosque? As long as these stand true to you, stand ye true to them: for God doth love the righteous. (Qur’an, 9:7)" It should be noted that for Muslims there is a law of retaliation. A life for a life is something that Muslims believe, "O ye who believe! the law of equality is prescribed to you in cases of murder: the free for the free, the slave for the slave, the woman for the woman. But if any remission is made by the brother of the slain, then grant any reasonable demand, and compensate him with handsome gratitude, this is a concession and a Mercy from your Lord. After this whoever exceeds the limits shall be in grave penalty.” (Qur’an, 2:178) (* = reference is here) A situation when war may be declared is as follows:- “How should ye not fight for the cause of Allah and of the feeble among men and of the women and the children who are crying: Our Lord! Bring us forth from out this town of which the people are oppressors! Give us from thy presence some protecting friend! Give us from Thy presence some defender!" (Qur’an, 4:75) “But if they cease, Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrong-doers.” (Qur’an, 2:192-193) We MUST fight tyranny and oppression when there are those seeking our help. If you call this terrorism, then you are either in the side pocket of an oppressor, or, you are yourself aligned with an oppressor. If you are not unjust to Muslims, you have nothing to fear. I shall now take one example, which I imagine has been misunderstood. Please keep in mind the above mentioned verses that are the regulating verses with regards to war. “Fight and slay the Polytheists wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war);” Wow, this really seems to shut me up! But there are two issues:- 1. This is totally out of context. 2. You must not forget the earlier regulating verses with regards to war. I shall go through the relevant verses which will help you to understand the context. Below are the relevant verses:- (9:1) Freedom from obligation (is proclaimed) from Allah and His messenger toward those of the idolaters with whom ye made a treaty. (9:2) Travel freely in the land four months, and know that ye cannot escape Allah and that Allah will confound the disbelievers (in His Guidance). (9:3) And a proclamation from Allah and His messenger to all men on the day of the Greater Pilgrimage that Allah is free from obligation to the idolaters, and (so is) His messenger. So, if ye repent, it will be better for you; but if ye are averse, then know that ye cannot escape Allah. Give tidings (O Muhammad) of a painful doom to those who disbelieve, (9:4) Excepting those of the idolaters with whom ye (Muslims) have a treaty, and who have since abated nothing of your right nor have supported anyone against you. (As for these), fulfil their treaty to them till their term. Lo! Allah loveth those who keep their duty (unto Him). (9:5) Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters/polytheists wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. (9:6) And if anyone of the idolaters seeketh thy protection (O Muhammad), then protect him so that he may hear the Word of Allah, and afterward convey him to his place of safety. That is because they are a folk who know not. (9:7) How can there be a treaty with Allah and with His messenger for the idolaters save those with whom ye made a treaty at the Inviolable Place of Worship? So long as they are true to you, be true to them. Lo! Allah loveth those who keep their duty. (9:8) How (can there be such a league), seeing that if they get an advantage over you, they respect not in you the ties either of kinship or of covenant? With (fair words from) their mouths they entice you, but their hearts are averse from you; and most of them are rebellious and wicked. (9:9) They have purchased with the revelations of Allah a little gain, so they debar (men) from His way. Evil is that which they are wont to do. (9:10) In a Believer they respect not the ties either of kinship or of covenant! It is they who have transgressed all bounds. (9:11) But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then are they your brethren in religion. We detail Our revelations for a people who have knowledge. (9:12) But if they violate their oaths after their covenant, and taunt you for your Faith,- fight ye the chiefs of Unfaith: for their oaths are nothing to them: that thus they may be restrained. (9:13) Will ye not fight people who violated their oaths, plotted to expel the Messenger, and did attack you first? Do ye fear them? Nay, it is Allah Whom ye should more justly fear, if ye believe! (9:14) Fight them, Allah will punish them by your hands and bring them to disgrace, and assist you against them and heal the hearts of a believing people. I would first recommend that you read the above verses once more. Now I will give you the verses and briefly explain them by each other, i.e., by understanding the context. So, you should read:- (9:1) Freedom from obligation (is proclaimed) from Allah and His messenger toward those of the idolaters with whom ye made a treaty. (9:2) Travel freely in the land four months, and know that ye cannot escape Allah and that Allah will confound the disbelievers (in His Guidance). (9:3) And a proclamation from Allah and His messenger to all men on the day of the Greater Pilgrimage that Allah is free from obligation to the idolaters, and (so is) His messenger. So, if ye repent, it will be better for you; but if ye are averse, then know that ye cannot escape Allah. Give tidings (O Muhammad) of a painful doom to those who disbelieve, And (9:5) Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. And realize that they are qualified by:- (9:4) Excepting those of the idolaters with whom ye (Muslims) have a treaty, and who have since abated nothing of your right nor have supported anyone against you. (As for these), fulfil their treaty to them till their term. Lo! Allah loveth those who keep their duty (unto Him). In fact if we were to assume that Muslims were supposed to just randomly go around killing any idolaters they found, then the next verse would be confusing:- (9:6) And if anyone of the idolaters seeketh thy protection (O Muhammad), then protect him so that he may hear the Word of Allah, and afterward convey him to his place of safety. That is because they are a folk who know not. It does not say force them into Islam, it does not say kill them… it says, ‘protect him so that he may hear God’s word’. A place of safety means a place of mutual safety, i.e., a place where the idolater can’t cause trouble (hence safety for the Muslims), and a place of safety for the idolater. In the next verses a) the mentality of those with whom Muslims cannot maintain a treaty is exposed. And b) The kind of actions which warrant both fighting and the breaking of a treaty (now from the Muslim side) are explained:- A) (9:7) How can there be a treaty with Allah and with His messenger for the idolaters save those with whom ye made a treaty at the Inviolable Place of Worship? So long as they are true to you, be true to them. Lo! Allah loveth those who keep their duty. (9:8) How (can there be such a league), seeing that if they get an advantage over you, they respect not in you the ties either of kinship or of covenant? With (fair words from) their mouths they entice you, but their hearts are averse from you; and most of them are rebellious and wicked. (9:9) They have purchased with the revelations of Allah a little gain, so they debar (men) from His way. Evil is that which they are wont to do. (9:10) In a Believer they respect not the ties either of kinship or of covenant! It is they who have transgressed all bounds. Notice how clearly we are told “So long as they are true to you, be true to them”. Which logically implies that we can only attack (and hence break a treaty) once they are no longer true to the treaty. B) (9:12) But if they violate their oaths after their covenant, and taunt you for your Faith,- fight ye the chiefs of Unfaith: for their oaths are nothing to them: that thus they may be restrained. (9:13) Will ye not fight people who violated their oaths, plotted to expel the Messenger, and did attack you first? Do ye fear them? Nay, it is Allah Whom ye should more justly fear, if ye believe! (9:14) Fight them, Allah will punish them by your hands and bring them to disgrace, and assist you against them and heal the hearts of a believing people. The above verses also qualify (9:1-3,5). If people just looked at the Qur’an logically, they would see its magnificence. It is obvious that the above verses are self explanatory, as Allah says:- (9:11) …We detail Our revelations for a people who have knowledge. But if you come in with bad intentions, you will be blinded by those intentions.Marwan_Boustany
December 20, 2005
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I would like too say too the muslim apologists here that you are defending the indefensible.....better luck defending Marxism or Nazism then Islam!! However, if people want too get honest answers about Islam and not the usual pile of lies , please talk to the legions of ex muslims out there in cyberspace or perhaps even in person!! 2 of my dearest friends are apostates from Sunni Islam and I have learned much from them and others about Islam and its brutal founder muhammed!! One of the best sites too talk to ex muslims is www.faithfreedom.org run by the great persian canadian Dr. Ali Sina......there are gaggles of ex muslims on the forums where you can ask any question about the cult that is islam and you will get an honest answer too be sure!! In short, Muhammed was a brutal man from a brutal period and a brutal part of the world.....he never rose above the brutality that was part and parcel of the levant in the 7th cent....... He was a murderer of innocent Jews and poets, he was a looter, a advocate of beating wives, a advocate of raping captive women, and incredibly he married a 6 year old girl while he was in his 50's and slept with Aisha when she was 9??? You should see how muslims try to spin this act of degeneracy!! Also, and this is crucial, Islam advocates the murder of those that leave this brutal ideology.........all of these brutal teachings are contained either in the Quran (think Mein Kampf for Arabs) or the Sahih Hadiths or Sira..... As another poster pointed out, the harshness of the Bible is contained in its earlier covenants and give way too the Greek Bible and Christ's teachings... In Islam, it is the exact opposite.......Muhammed while at Mecca was quite decent and peaceful......when he fled to Medina and took power there, he became the murderous petty thug that we all know about.... Islam gets uglier as it proceeds........the exact opposite of the Bible!! ThanksProudDarulHarbian
December 19, 2005
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I apologise for the previous rash response... There is really no point in allowing discussion to degenerate. pmob1... You are free to believe what you like, but when you choose to make offensive statements, you must expect 2 things: - 1) To offend people. (By the way, how is this manner of yours a part of the christian "reformation"?) 2) You will be asked to provide evidence. So I ask you, why is christianity superior to Islam and in what way is this related to the reformation you speak of? Provide your evidence... In what way is islam a blood thirsty and unjust religion. Provide your evidence. Peace...Marwan_Boustany
December 19, 2005
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If they are inspired by the Qur'an, I would challange you to provide your proof. Second, can i have thhe exact references to the history you speak of? Quote me the Qur'anic evidence... And regarding the reformation you speak of... I would say two things... 1) Christianity is different to anything brought by any of the old testament prophets, it is infact only similar to older polytheistic religions which had God families and trinities... Consider: - 1) The Egyptian triad of Ramses II, Amon-Ra, and Nut. 2) The Egyptian triad of Horus, Osiris, and Isis. 3) The Palmyra triad of moon god, Lord of the Heavens, and sun god. 4) The Babylonian triad of Ishtar, Sin, and Shamash. 5) The Mahayana Buddhist triune of transformation body, enjoyment body, and truth body. 6) The Hindu triad (Tri-murti) of Brahma, Vishnu, and Siva. Edward Gibbon says: “The Roman Christians, ignorant of his (Christ’s) birth, fixed the solemn festival to the 25th of December, the Brumalia, or Winter Solstice, when the Pagans annually celebrated the birth of Sol” Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, vol. ii, Gibbon, p. 383. Many such facts, with the Christianity you do not have a reformation, but a revolution to the old pagan ways. 2) You say Islam has a bloodlust, provide the Qur'anic evidence. Peace... etc...Marwan_Boustany
December 19, 2005
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Marwan, I’ll choose my own bibles, thanks. The references to banditry, throat-slitting and vicious conquering hordes of library-burners are references to something called history. Check it out some time. The actions I noted were inspired by the Qur’an (and still are, of course). The biblical quotes you provide only underline my original point, that Islam is an Old Testament religion. You reaffirm my thesis. A Reformation requires a New Testament. Islam never got that far. Therefore, a Reformation will not suffice to cure Islam of its Old Testament blood lust. Peace and Love,pmob1
December 19, 2005
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brief response. why isnt it being posted? first to the article... it really needs to be stated that there is a world of difference between arab traditionalism and islam. Much in that article can be easily resolved in this regard. Gender equality? The bible says that the man is the head of his wife, nowhere in the Qur'an is this said. Woman will be ruled over / dominated by the husband is found in (GENESIS 3:16) 1 Corinthians 11:3 "Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God." 1 Peter 3:5 "For this is the way the holy women of the past who put their hope in God used to make themselves beautiful. They were submissive to their own husbands," 1 Timothy 2:12 "I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent." Rape is absolutely not allowed qur'anically, for any reason, in fact if a man were cast aspersions on a woman’s modesty without clear evidence he is to be flogged 80 times. Contrast this to From the NIV Bible recall (Matthew 5:17-18), Deuteronomy 22:28 which says: - "If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives." Just pay 50 shekels and its ok, then the woman is forced to marry her rapist. Just because that so called muslim who went to america said what he said, that means nothing, he is just an ignorant hypocrite. Who deserves brutal punishment for what he inflicted on those girls. polygamy (or polygyny)? the old testament is full of polygyny, Abraham, king david, solomon, King Solomon's son Rehoboam etc... if it was good for them... Anyway, qur'anic position on polygyny is restricted for a special purpose. he says "But along with Islamic immigration to the West have come Third World value systems regarding the treatment of women." Islamic immigration? what the hell does that mean? and I like the way he tries to link 3rd world value systems with it. What are first world value systems anyway? The right to deny God and denigrate God and indoctrinate children in atheism and moral relativity, the right to promiscuity and the treating of women as sex objects to be gawked at in every advert and pornographic movie? The right to destroy familys and all they stand for etc... gimme a break. The right (or "freedom") to homosexual marriage and the sexualisation of children? The right for women to act like men in order to have worth? just seriously gimme a break... The article is just so much ignorance... Ill write more if i have time and feel like it... now to pmob1: - first of all, check your niv bible and realise that the “Let him who is without sin cast the first stone.” section is recognised as not authentic... so forget that. next your statements are so full of ignorance that i am forced to say "should i expect more?"... I would advise you read the Qur'an before you cast such repulsive statements around like so much chaff... you say: "His message was: back to the caves, boys, and let’s shoot up that caravan and slit some throats. I don’t recall that Jesus made his big break by raiding camel caravans. Totally different deal." Really? was this his message? this is what he taught? The Qur'an is a manual of monotheism and submission of the will of humanity to the All mighty. It teaches charity, honesty, justice, kindness, doing good to parents and the poor and the needy and any who ask. and so much more... yet in it I have yet to come across the teaching of "back to the caves, boys, and let’s shoot up that caravan and slit some throats."... If you actually want biblical quotes for that kind of thing well here are some examples: -- Numbers 31:1-18, And the Lord said unto Moses, "Avenge the children of the Mid'-an'ites.. They warred against the Mid'-i-an'ites, as the Lord commanded Moses, and they slay all the males. And they took all women as captives, and their little ones, and took the spoil of all their cattle, and all their flocks, and all their goods. And they burnt all their cities wherein they dwelt, and all their goodly castles, with fire. Moses said, "HAVE YOU SAVED ALL THE WOMEN ALIVE? NOW KILL EVERY MALE AMONG THE LITTLE ONES, AND KILL EVERY WOMAN that has known a man by lying with him, but all the young girls who have not known a man by lying with him keep alive for yourselves." keep the girls as concubines... hmnnn… [Joshua 6:20-24]which contains the following: - "The people utterly DESTROYED ALL THAT WAS IN THE CITY, BOTH MAN AND WOMAN,YOUNG AND OLD, AND OX AND SHEEP, AND ASS, WITH THE EDGE OF THE SWORD" etc... There is really no point in comparing Jesus to Muhammad, Muhammad was a prophet more in the style of Moses... Plenty more to say, but you are just a drop in the ocean (as is the article's author) and i haven’t the time. Peace.Marwan_Boustany
December 17, 2005
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pmob you wrote: "You wrote: “His message was: there is no god but God (so don’t worship idols made of stone and wood).”Come on. Your life’s mission is to go to Mecca and grovel in front of a big black rock." Are you talking about the Kaaba? The large black cube in Mecca? If so, a little info: It's not a rock, the black color is fabric, underneath is a building, an ancient hindu temple actually, the muslims call it a pagan temple but is was actually a hindu temple. There is a long story as to how it came to be treated the way it is. Here it is Vedic Past of Pre-Islamic Arabia - Part 1 Vedic Past of Pre-Islamic Arabia - Part 2 Vedic Past of Pre-Islamic Arabia - Part 3 Vedic Past of Pre-Islamic Arabia - Part 4 Vedic Past of Pre-Islamic Arabia - Part 5 Vedic Past of Pre-Islamic Arabia - Part 6 Vedic Past of Pre-Islamic Arabia - Part 7 Vedic Past of Pre-Islamic Arabia - Part 8 mentok
December 17, 2005
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Ben, So are they Islamic Lebs or Catholic? Will they assimilate? Since you appear to have an (actual) unemployment rate of 12% or so, who’s bringing in all the casuals anyway?pmob1
December 17, 2005
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Logan, You wrote: “Is this the same practice of stoning that is endorsed by the Divinely revealed Old Testament?” Right. Not to shock, but their have been further revelations. The rest of us stepped over the older stuff long ago. Islam is still rolling in it. You wrote: “His message was: there is no god but God (so don’t worship idols made of stone and wood).” Come on. Your life’s mission is to go to Mecca and grovel in front of a big black rock. You wrote: “The Koran’s counter-response was “Permission to fight is given to those who fight because they have been wronged…” Okay, so after raiding a bunch of caravans, raising armies, cutting the heads off all the male Jews, (you know, the usual stuff), the Muslims say to themselves, Hey, we’ve been “wronged” by the entire populations of N. Africa, Spain, France, Turkey, Mesopotamia, Persia, everyone. None of these people even knows yet that we exist but Allah says go cut their heads off. You wrote: “Indeed they are totally different deals. The Prophet of Islam(s) is much more comparable to Moses or King David: like them he was required to wage war.” Right. Exactly as I said. You need a New Testament before you can have a Reformation. The Muslims put an Old Testament together very late in the game, did a little idol-smashing and never got an inch further. By that time, David had been dead for 1500 years.pmob1
December 17, 2005
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The problem gangs in Sydney aren't pakistani, they're lebanese. It's been remarkable to me as an Australian just how many elementary details of this story the American and British media have got wrong. Incidentally, the vast majority of the violence and property damage has been inflicted not in the original white riots but in revenge attacks by the Lebs.BenK
December 16, 2005
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"Status of women in Pakistan From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. Pakistan is the first Muslim country to elect a woman (Benazir Bhutto) as a Head of Government. Women are well represented in politics and in many upper-middle-class professions. Nevertheless, within Pakistan, there are wide diversities and divergences between provinces and territories, and between urban/metropolitan areas and remote rural localities. The complexity of these is daunting. While Pakistani women continue to struggle for advancement, they have made strides by a number of measures. Among these are the rising numbers of women in well-paid professional occupations, increased activism by feminist groups, and a recent rapid reduction in the number of children per woman. Women in Pakistan have progressed in various fields of life such as politics, education, economy, services, health and many more. The Pakistani women of today enjoy a better status than most Islamic and Middle Eastern women. Pakistan is the only country to have a Female Major-General in the army; Pakistan is the only Muslim country to have women fighter pilots in its Air Force/Military; Pakistan fares much better then all its neighbors, many Western European countries and the USA, when it comes to women's representation in the Parliament and local governments; a MINIMUM of 33% seats have to be occupied by women, by law. Pakistani women have always played a very important part in its society. Asma Jehangir, the human rights activist is a great Pakistani woman. Nowadays, you see Pakistani women excelling in all facets of life; they are in the police, in the Commando unit of the police and security forces, they lead corporations (e.g. Unilever Pakistan,) they are respected journalists etc. There are many good role models to young girls on various Pakistani Television channels who are females, such as singers and talented actresses in Pakistani TV dramas. Yet much more remains to be done in terms of equal rights and protection as well as amendments to biased and defunct Hudood Laws." That is one side of Pakistan, the middle and upper class side. But the fact is that most people in Paksitan are poor, and there are many many women who are the targets of all kinds of exploitation and violence. The influence of Wahhabism has exasperated the situation as well.mentok
December 16, 2005
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There seems to be some mistaken ideas on these responses. In the blog post was about Pakistani immigrants in Australia who are criminals, the man's defense was no doubt a lawyers tactic to garner sympathy vis-a-vis political correctness and multiculturalism. Secondly Islam does not condone what goes on in various tribal/ethnic locales in Pakistan. Actually you can find the same types of barbarity in various tribal/ethnic cultures in India as well. In India a big problem is dowry violence and murder. It is almost a common occurence amongst backwards poor people to throw acid on the faces of their brides if the promised dowry is not delivered, or even killing the bride. In these backward poor ethnic/tribal communities women are a commodity and if they don't go along with the business deal then violence ensues against them. It's not an Islamic thing, it's a cultural thing found amongst certain poor ethnic/tribal communities in Pakistan and India. That does not mean that women in Islamic countries have as much equality as in the west, though it varies from country to country and community to community. Take Pakistan for example. On the one hand you can find the most brutal treatment of women in the Islamic world there in various poor ethnic/tribal communities. But also in Pakistan you will find a large sector of society who view Islam much the same as how most people in the west view religion, i.e they rarely go to church, and religion is not given too much thought or consequence in their daily lives. In Pakistan the upper and middle class are very westernized and are not religious fanatics at all, women are not treated as second class citizens, in fact they hold prominent positions of influence and power throughout Pakistani society, their prime minister was a women a few years ago. That is why Mushareff can get away with being a big supporter of George Bush. That couldn't happen in any other Islamic country. It is due to the middle and upper classes in Pakistan seeing themselves as modern progressive westernized people. They like American society and culture and send their children to America for their schooling. They are Indian people, not arabs, they are not fanatic jihadists, in fact they are hardly religious at all. But in the last few decades Saudi Arabia has poured millions of dollars into Pakistan to build madrassahs (religious schools) which teach Wahhabism. Paksitan's Islam had been a mix of influences due to the nature of the creation of the state of Pakistan. Pakistan was created by the partition of British India and the result of that partition was a large exodus of muslims from all over India into what used to be the western part of India. The hindus who lived there fled into India and the muslims who lived there were in large part poor tribal peoples. Due to partition a flood of Indian muslims who were well educated and economically successful moved into Paksitan and became it's elites and middle class. Their religious beliefs are liberal compared to the Arab world and they are much more westernized in their social outlook then the rest of the Islamic world. They identify more with the west then with the Islamic world. The Saudis changed Paksitani society. With their madrassahs teaching the most conservative and jihadist form of Islam, a whole generation of poor young people have been indoctrinated into Wahhabism. Just recently those madrassahs have been shut down. This situation has caused great concern among the middle class and elites. They fear the jihadists amongst them and because of that they have to be careful of seeming to anti jihadist and pro west. It's a cultural phenomena not a religious one.mentok
December 16, 2005
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"I mean you have to have something to work with, and they didn’t even come close the first time. Jesus, confronted with a typical stoning, said “Let him who is without sin cast the first stone.” " Is this the same practice of stoning that is endorsed by the Divinely revealed Old Testament? (Deuteronomy... Leviticus...I can't recall now.) If God endorses something, could you please explain why it is so bad? "His message was: back to the caves, boys, and let’s shoot up that caravan and slit some throats." Eh, what? His message was: there is no god but God (so don't worship idols made of stone and wood). The pagan response was: we will torture you and throw you out for insulting our gods. The Koran's counter-response was "Permission to fight is given to those who fight because they have been wronged; and God is Able to give them victory. Those who have been driven from their homes unjustly, for no cause other than for their saying: Our Lord is God." (22:39-40) Now where exactly is the problem in all this? "I don’t recall that Jesus made his big break by raiding camel caravans. Totally different deal." Indeed they are totally different deals. The Prophet of Islam(s) is much more comparable to Moses or King David: like them he was required to wage war.Logan
December 16, 2005
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Some say Islam needs a Reformation but I think it goes deeper than that. I mean you have to have something to work with, and they didn’t even come close the first time. Jesus, confronted with a typical stoning, said “Let him who is without sin cast the first stone.” I don’t recall Mohammed ever making that leap and he came 600 years later when a whole lot of folks, not just Jesus, knew better. His message was: back to the caves, boys, and let’s shoot up that caravan and slit some throats. I don’t recall that Jesus made his big break by raiding camel caravans. Totally different deal. If Islam is a religion, then Tookie Williams must qualify as an Imam. Put another way, apologists for Islam are like the folks who rallied for Williams the other day. No diff. It’s a gangsta thing. Sharon Lapkin writes: “But the average Australian seeks a midpoint between these equally vile extremes in which fairness and a single standard of law will apply to all.” A midpoint between vile extremes… Sheese, Sharon, I think we can do better than that.pmob1
December 16, 2005
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This 2004 article by Aussie ex-cop Tim Priest is remarkably prescient: http://www.quadrant.org.au/php/archive_details_list.php?article_id=581BenK
December 16, 2005
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