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Scientists often don’t know what they’re talking about

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When reading the following, remember that string theory is taught and discussed in physics courses. Also ask yourself whether Gross’s criticisms apply to evolutionary theory — is it “missing something absolutely fundamental”?

Nobel laureate admits string theory is in trouble
10 December 2005
http://www.newscientist.com/channel/fundamentals/mg18825293.700.html

“WE DON’T know what we are talking about.” That was Nobel laureate David Gross at the 23rd Solvay Conference in Physics in Brussels, Belgium, during his concluding remarks on Saturday. He was referring to string theory – the attempt to unify the otherwise incompatible theories of relativity and quantum mechanics to provide a theory of everything.

“The state of physics today is like it was when we were mystified by radioactivity”
Gross – who received a Nobel for his work on the strong nuclear force, bringing physics closer to a theory of everything – has been a strong advocate of string theory, which also aims to explain dark energy. “Many of us believed that string theory was a very dramatic break with our previous notions of quantum theory,” he said. “But now we learn that string theory, well, is not that much of a break.”

He compared the state of physics today to that during the first Solvay conference in 1911. Then, physicists were mystified by the discovery of radioactivity. The puzzling phenomenon threatened even the laws of conservation of mass and energy, and physicists had to wait for the theory of quantum mechanics to explain it. “They were missing something absolutely fundamental,” he said. “We are missing perhaps something as profound as they were back then.”

From issue 2529 of New Scientist magazine, 10 December 2005, page 6

Comments

Dave, as pointed out in previous threads, information can be destroyed in a deterministic universe.

Say what? Not according to Stephen Hawking. Who should I believe, him or you? http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn6151 -ds secondclass
April 4, 2006
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A quote relevant to the discussion: "Inflation itself takes a very small universe and produces from it a very big universe. But inflation by itself does not explain where that very small universe came from. Eternal inflation is eternal into the future, not the past. Those bubble universes may keep inflating eternally into the future, but we’re still left without an explanation for what caused the first bubble. " --Alan GuthGumpngreen
December 17, 2005
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keiths: "If there’s something inherently illogical about positing a multiverse, was it illogical for Curtis to propose that there were many galaxies beyond our own before telescopes were powerful enough to show this?" Yes, there is. An infinite number of infinite universes is infinity-squared more complex than saying God created the universe. And, please tell, how does this infinity-squared complexity compare to simply projecting out from the boundaries of our galaxies? This is a simple projection of the "known" into farther realms, whereas the infinity-squared silliness says that there are an infinite number of universes that are different from the one we live in. The former is like extending the x,y, and z-axes, while the latter is that there is an infinite number of x,y, and z-axes. So, in terms of predicting other galaxies, the multiverse is only 'infinitely' more, and not infinity-squared more, complex.PaV
December 16, 2005
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[...] Update: Ken Silber writes in to point out that William Dembski, one of the most prominent Intelligent Design ideologues, has now latched on to the string theory controversy as evidence that mainstream science is no better than ID. Dembski has both comments on Susskind and comments on David Gross’s admission that string theory is in trouble. [...]Not Even Wrong » Blog Archive » Susskind Interview at New Scientist
December 16, 2005
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PaV, I assume you understood that my citation of Borges was in jest; your response is a bit ambiguous on that point. As for the multiverse hypothesis, it's not obvious to me how it stretches logic "to the breaking point." Could you elaborate? Occam's Razor would suggest that we avoid invoking multiple universes without justification, but if a multiverse model ends up fitting the data better than any single-universe model, and furthermore makes predictions which are testable within our own universe, I see nothing that logically requires us to reject it out of hand. If there's something inherently illogical about positing a multiverse, was it illogical for Curtis to propose that there were many galaxies beyond our own before telescopes were powerful enough to show this?keiths
December 15, 2005
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keiths: Your response reminds me of the 'solution' to the problem of the 'Anthropic Principle': that is, 'an infinite number of infinite universes; ours just happens to be the one that turned out to be conducive to life.' Logic is stretched to the breaking point by these kinds of (pseudo) 'solutions'.PaV
December 15, 2005
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PaV asks: "Beethoven’s Fifth didn’t exist before Beethoven. Therefore, the question is: where did this information come from?" Answer: from the Conservatory of Babel, which is next to, but infinitely far from, the Library of Babel. See Jorge Luis Borges' famous story "The Library of Babel," which describes a library containing all possible books of a certain size written with a fixed character set. Borges' narrator suspects that the library is unlimited but periodic. It can be difficult to find what you're looking for: "For every rational line or forthright statement there are leagues of senseless cacophony, verbal nonsense, and incoherency." But it also contains "all that is able to be expressed, in every language. All -- the detailed history of the future, the autobiographies of the archangels, the faithful catalog of the Library, thousands and thousands of false catalogs, a proof of the falsity of the true catalog, the gnostic gospel of Basilides, the commentary upon that gospel, the commentary on the commentary on that gospel, the true story of your death, the translation of every book into every language, the interpolations of every book into all books, the treatise Bede could have written (but did not) on the mythology of the Saxon people, the lost books of Tacitus." To that I would add 1) the complete text of the upcoming Dover decision, 2) a book entitled "Icons of Intelligent Design: Mt. Rushmore Was NOT Designed!", 3) "Across the Great Divide", an account of the tumultuous but ultimately triumphant love affair of Phillip Johnson and Eugenie Scott, 4) biographical sketches describing Ken Miller's militant atheism and Richard Dawkins' devotion to the Catholic Church, culminating in his martyrdom and sainthood, 5) a book review in which Bill Dembski is described as "the Wayne Newton of information theory", and 6) a musical comedy based on the Dover trial, entitled "That's Not What You Said in Your Deposition!" Borges also wrote (elsewhere): "I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library," though he probably did not have the Library of Babel in mind. Borges was appointed director of Argentina’s National Library in 1955, the same year in which he went blind. He wrote: No one should read self-pity or reproach Into this statement of the majesty of God, who with such splendid irony Granted me books and blindness in one touchkeiths
December 15, 2005
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PAV: “But there still is the matter of the distinction between music and vibrating strings.” DS: It’s the same distinction that exists between a blister and a flame. What’s your point? That's an inept reply. The point is obvious: stringed instruments produce "music": that is, the physical expression of music; but the music, itself, is the product of the human mind. Beethoven's Fifth didn't exist before Beethoven. Therefore, the question is: where did this information come from?PaV
December 15, 2005
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Dave, At one point you gave this definition: "Subjective meaning is what Dembski refers to in CSI as conformance to an independently given pattern." Is the independently given pattern physical? If so, what is the independently given physical pattern that conforms to the subjective meaning "2+2=4"? Dave T.taciturnus
December 15, 2005
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DaveScot, Graceful as always I see. You keep using the words "objective information" and "subjective meaning" without defining them, as I've asked you to. Saying the words over and over with different insults appended doesn't tell me anything. If you are going to spoonfeed, then spoonfeed me this: What is the definition of "meaning"? Please don't use the word "information" in the definition, because you use the word "meaning" to define "information" and your definitions would be circular. And - this is very important - is "meaning" physical or non-physical? Cheers, Dave T.taciturnus
December 15, 2005
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traciturnus "Therfore there is no way to specify a physical process that can unambiguously measure information." Yes, there is. You fail to distinguish the difference between objective information and subjective meaning. I can spoonfeed this stuff to you if you'd just stop making faces and spitting it out.DaveScot
December 15, 2005
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"But there still is the matter of the distinction between music and vibrating strings." It's the same distinction that exists between a blister and a flame. What's your point? "I’m sure Aquinas expresses these distinctions better than I ever could. So, I suggest you consult his arguments." Taxonomy of the immaterial. You'll forgive me if I don't waste any further time contemplating classification systems for ghosts. I merely pointed out the absurdity of it for the record.DaveScot
December 15, 2005
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Dave Scott: "Dead people don’t fight." No, they don't. But they can, and do, leave legacies. I happen to agree with St. Thomas Aquinas and his, as you call it, "taxonomy" of souls. I'm sure Aquinas expresses these distinctions better than I ever could. So, I suggest you consult his arguments. But there still is the matter of the distinction between music and vibrating strings.PaV
December 14, 2005
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I think my last post was a little unclear. Maybe an example will help. Mercury at a certain level in a thermometer indicates my kid has a 100 degree temperature. There is no ambiguity here. Temperature maps to a definite physical state in one-to-one correspondence. What does the meaning "2+2=4" map to as a physical state of letters? At least, it could map to "2+2=4" or "two plus two equals four" or "10 + 10 = 100", etc., etc., in an infinite variety of ways. There is no way to pre-specify what form information must take. (Or, for DaveScot, meaning encoded as information). Therfore there is no way to specify a physical process that can unambiguously measure information. Dave T.taciturnus
December 14, 2005
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Dave, Here is the problem with defining information as a physical property of matter/energy like temperature. Temperature can be directly measured because it carries a one-to-one relationship across physical processes. The air, my bathwater, and my kid's body will all cause mercury to rise to a certain level in a tube that indicates 98.6 degrees if they are at the same temperature. In other words, 98.6 degrees reflects a limited set of physical possibilities. Unfortunately, information is not limited in this way. "2+2=4" is capable of being encoded in an infinite variety of ways. We might say that the MEANING of "2+2=4" sets no limits on how it might be physically represented. (Of course, some representations are more useful than others.) This is the reason that human language is infinitely variable, but human science will be the same everywhere (assuming it works.) It's also the reason that there will never be an objective, purely physical way of detecting information. There's just no way to say a priori what physical form information must take. It's also the reason some of us doubt the purely material mind. If meaning is capable of being encoded in an infinite variety of physical forms, then whatever it is that understands and/or creates meaning cannot itself be physical, or it would not be potentially able to understand the variety of meaningful representations. That is why the detection of information will always involve a subjective component. Dave T.taciturnus
December 14, 2005
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I'm referring to those among us who see evidence of immaterial information and mind and how it points to a non-phsyical realm, which most would see as a spiritual realm.Josh Bozeman
December 14, 2005
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Information is a physical property of matter/energy like temperature. Like temperature it can be measured and physical laws formulated to predict its behavior. To try to separate information as something separate from matter/energy is like trying to separate temperature from matter/energy. Temperature is meaningless without matter/energy. What y'all here are doing is conflating subjective meaning with objective information. Subjective meaning is what Dembski refers to in CSI as conformance to an independently given pattern. 10976561907761409726786145098725890 is objective information and it can be measured. It's complex information. If it represents a password then it is complex specified information. Dembski's problem is that specification appears subjective and resists measurement. To be scientific, or rigorously mathematical which IMO is the same thing, specification needs to be objectively quantifiable and amenable to measurement. Maybe he's done that and I just don't understand it along with a whole bunch of other folks. The nut is that I intuitively know that he's right. CSI is like beauty - it's difficult to define but we know it when we see it.DaveScot
December 14, 2005
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Josh, Who says I'm religious? Nothing I have written indicates that I am. My arguments are mostly drawn from Aristotle. The irony is that Aristotle's philosophy was resisted in the Middle Ages for being too secular and not sufficiently "mystical". Now he is too religious! Cheers, David T.taciturnus
December 14, 2005
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DaveScot, I'm sorry if I am frustrating you. I don't think my questions are based on mysticism. I can honestly say I don't accept the purely material mind because I have never heard (from you, or anyone else) a satisfactory account of how rational thought can be explained in material terms. Frankly, the situation is the same as Darwinism. A Darwinist shows you a couple of fossils and claims that one evolved from the other. I ask for an account of exactly how one evolved into the other, and the Darwinist flies into a rage and calls me "religious." The materialist points to pathological brain cases and claims that all thought is merely material. I ask him to account for exactly how rational thought can be understood in purely material terms, and he calls me "mystical". (It is revealing that "mystical" is assumed to be an insult. I'm not sure it is. Maybe St. John of the Cross knew something I don't.). "I have explained it. You don’t accept the explanation. You insist that some mystical immaterial stuff or force that no one can measure is at work. I guess I need to start cueing up the Ghost Buster’s theme again. Do you believe in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny too?" I must have missed the explanation. All I have seen you do is say over and over again that to store information, you need matter and energy, then personally insult anyone who disagrees with you. What is needed is an account of how rational thought can be understood in purely material terms, just like Darwinists need to give an account of how eyes and wings evolved in purely material terms, not merely point to fossils that indicate that organisms with wings came later than those without, claim they are done, then dismiss anyone objecting as "religious" (or as "mystics.") Case in point: "2+2=4 is not information. It’s a mutually agreed upon meaning. You are confusing subjective meaning with objective information." Your statement says nothing without an explanation of "meaning" on a purely material basis. It merely displaces the question of whether "information" is physical to the question of whether "meaning" is physical. If "meaning" is non-physical, then you need to give an account of how a purely material mind can have contact with and understand the non-physical. If "meaning" is physical, then you need to give an account of where it exists and how we can share it, since we do not share the matter of our brains. There is nothing "mystical" about these questions. They follow logically from your assertions. Please bear with me. Cheers, Dave T.taciturnus
December 14, 2005
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Dave never fails to belittle the religious among us. Comparing them to believers in santa claus and the easter bunny.Josh Bozeman
December 14, 2005
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There's a saying: "Never argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level then beat you with experience." It's time for a corrollary. "Never argue with mystics. They drag you down to their level then beat you with experience."DaveScot
December 14, 2005
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PaV "You can fight it out with St. Thomas Aquinas" Dead people don't fight.DaveScot
December 14, 2005
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Taciturnus "Then why do you remain so silent about giving a positive account of how rational thought can be explained in purely material terms?" I have explained it. You don't accept the explanation. You insist that some mystical immaterial stuff or force that no one can measure is at work. I guess I need to start cueing up the Ghost Buster's theme again. Do you believe in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny too?DaveScot
December 14, 2005
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Taciturnus 2+2=4 is not information. It's a mutually agreed upon meaning. You are confusing subjective meaning with objective information.DaveScot
December 14, 2005
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"All the same information, taking many different forms, no matter or energy is actually transferred, etc." Yes, it is. You just don't understand physics behind it well enough. Photons travel from one point to another in any visual messages such as skywriting. Electrons are shuffled around in the phone. Chemical and electrical changes occur in your brain when you hear it. It's all very physical.DaveScot
December 14, 2005
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Thanks David. That's what I'm saying with the physical and information. You have to use matter to represent information but not reduce it to matter. The link (I think it's in this thread) of the message (information) that takes numerous different forms...a cell phone from someone on a beach, to someone else who hears it over the phone, without an exchange of matter itself, the person on the phone then tells another person via sign language (a totally different format, no way it could be a transfer of matter), that person sends a plane that then rights the same message with the same information content in the sky over the original caller's head. All the same information, taking many different forms, no matter or energy is actually transferred, etc.Josh Bozeman
December 13, 2005
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Josh, The source of the illusion that information is mere matter comes from the fact that matter can be used to *represent* information. But the information *itself* can't be matter, or you wouldn't be able to use two different bits of matter to represent the same information. It's a simple syllogism: 1. The same piece of matter cannot be in two different places at the same time. 2. Information is a piece of matter. 3. Therefore information cannot be in two different places at the same time. If true, then you and I can't know "2+2=4" at the same time. But we CAN know "2+2=4" at the same time, which means that either premise #1 or #2 is false. Since #1 is obviously true, #2 must be false. Matter represents information, but is not that information itself. This argument is very ancient, and as I am learning, modern materialists don't refute it, they just ignore it. Cheers, David Ttaciturnus
December 13, 2005
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“A coding system always entails a nonmaterial intellectual process. A physical matter cannot produce an information code. All experiences show that every piece of creative information represents some mental effort and can be traced to a personal idea-giver who exercised his own free will, and who is endowed with an intelligent mind.... There is no known law of nature, no known process and no known sequence of events which can cause information to originate by itself in matter...” -- Werner Gitt. In the Beginning Was Information. CLV, Bielefeld, Germany, pp. 107, 141 (just found these 2 quotes in Bill's cafepress shop).Josh Bozeman
December 13, 2005
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“The real duality at every level of biology is the duality of matter and information. The philosophers of mind-science fail to understand the true nature of information because they assume that it is produced by a material (i.e. Darwinian) process and hence is not something fundamentally different from matter. But this is merely a prejudice that would be swept away by unbiased thinking.” -- Phillip E. Johnson, The Wedge of Truth: Splitting the Foundations of Naturalism , Intervarsity Press, Illinois, 2000, p. 123Josh Bozeman
December 13, 2005
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Well, you'll have to argue that point with Dembski then, because even he says in his writing that information isn't reducible to matter or energy. ID, if I'm not mistaken, is partly based on the very fact that we now have to contend with 3 fundamental properties of the universe- matter and energy which we knew about, but now we have information which is neither matter nor energy.Josh Bozeman
December 13, 2005
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