Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

The “ID is Creationism in a cheap tuxedo” smear championed by Eugenie Scott et al of NCSE is now Law School Textbook orthodoxy . . .

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From ENV  — even as Dr Eugenie Scott of NCSE retires (having championed the ID is Creationism in a cheap tuxedo smear for years and years in the teeth of all correction . . . ) — we see a development, courtesy a whistle-blowing Law School student:

The latest attempt to insert creationism into the classroom is what is known as the Theory of Intelligent Design. The theory is that all of the complex natural phenomena could not have happened randomly; there had to be a design and a designer. Since the concept of the designer does not require a biblical interpretation, its advocates believe that it could possibly pass constitutional muster. Some states have proposed that science standards be rewritten to include requiring teachers to compare and contrast the design hypothesis with evidence that supports evolution . . . .

The efforts of Christian Fundamentalists to insert the biblical Book of Genesis’ explanation into the teaching of science in the public school classroom evolved in stages from direct state prohibitions to teaching Darwinian evolution, to teaching creation as a science, to balanced treatment of both creationism and evolution, and finally to the latest intelligent design movement (IDM) . . . .

Evidence in the [Dover, it seems] case indicated how the progenitors of intelligent design had adapted their wording and tactics immediately after the U.S. Supreme Court decision in Edwards v. Aguillard. Edwards had struck down a legislative attempt to give “balanced-treatment” to “creation science” along with evolution in public school science classes. The federal court in Pennsylvania said that: “The weight of the evidence clearly demonstrates . . . that the systemic change from ‘creation’ to ‘intelligent design’ occurred sometime in 1987, after the Supreme Court’s important Edwards decision. This compelling evidence strongly supports plaintiff’s assertion that ID is creationism relabeled.” [Apparently: Kern Alexander and M. David Alexander,  American Public School Law (Belmont, CA: Wadsworth, 8th Edn) p. 381.]

This is a blatantly slanderous strawman distortion in defiance of duties of care to truth, accuracy and fairness, and presents in misleading justification a false history of the origin of and motivation for design theory.

ENV’s Casey Luskin, quite properly, replies:

[F]irst off we see the equation of intelligent design (ID) with creationism. Is ID a form of “creationism”? For the purpose of a legal textbook, surely it’s important to see how courts have defined creationism. When the U.S. Supreme Court defined creationism, they found that it “embodies the religious belief that a supernatural creator was responsible for the creation of humankind.” Leading scholars on both sides of this debate agree that creationism generally holds that “supernatural” powers created life. Even under this broad definition of creationism, ID is not creationism. This is because ID does not try to address questions about whether the designer acting in biological nature is natural or supernatural, and in fact explicitly allows that the designer could have been natural. (We’ve discussed this before in detail; see “ID Does Not Address Religious Claims About the Supernatural.”) As should be clear, then, intelligent design lacks the key defining characteristic that makes creationism both unscientific and unconstitutional.

American Public School Law goes on to cite the Kitzmiller v. Dover ruling as having demonstrated that intelligent design is creationism. Does the evidence from that case in fact show that intelligent design fits the U.S. Supreme Court’s definition of creationism? Here’s how biologist Scott Minnich testified in explaining intelligent design to the court:

Q. Do you have an opinion as to whether intelligent design requires the action of a supernatural creator?
A. I do.
Q. What is that opinion?
A. It does not.

(Scott Minnich testimony, November 3, 2005.)

Or as Michael Behe testified:

Q. So is it accurate for people to claim or to represent that intelligent design holds that the designer was God?
Behe: No, that is completely inaccurate.
Q. Well, people have asked you your opinion as to who you believe the designer is, is that correct?
Behe: That is right.
Q. Has science answered that question?
Behe: No, science has not done so.
Q. And I believe you have answered on occasion that you believe the designer is God, is that correct?
Behe: Yes, that’s correct.
Q. Are you making a scientific claim with that answer?
Behe: No, I conclude that based on theological and philosophical and historical factors.

(Michael Behe testimony, October 17, 2005.)

The judge in the case, John E. Jones, refused to allow ID proponents to define their own theory and ignored this testimony in his ruling. But far from being a mere exercise in rhetoric, Behe’s argument is principled, based on a commitment to respect the limits of science. His belief in God is not a hard-and fast conclusion of intelligent design, but something he concludes for different reasons, “based on theological and philosophical and historical factors.” He makes clear that ID doesn’t identify the designer.

For example, let’s say (for the sake of argument) that the DNA encoding the bacterial flagellum gives evidence that it did not arise by a random and unguided process like Darwinian evolution, but instead arose by a non-random and intelligently directed process. The raw data here is a highly complex molecular machine encoded by information in DNA. But that genetic information, and that machine has no way of directly telling us whether the designer is Yahweh, Buddha, Yoda, or some other source of intelligent agency. Based on our present knowledge, identifying the designer lies beyond the competence of science. It is strictly a philosophical or theological matter and, for the scientific theory of ID, it is beyond its scope. Since ID is based solely upon empirical data, the theory must remain silent on such questions.

Going on further, a better informed, more accurate  summary of the history of the roots of design theory would be:

In more recent decades, the resurgence of ID in science and philosophy arose from the confluence of information theory with the discoveries of the astonishingly complex and digital nature of DNA and cell engineering. It was not a response to the legal flaws associated with Biblical creationism, but a recognition that the mechanisms proposed by neo-Darwinism could not adequately explain the informational and irreducible properties of living systems that were increasingly being identified in biological literature as identical to features common in language and engineered machines. The term “intelligent design” appears to have been coined in its contemporary usage by cosmologist Dr. Fred Hoyle and soon thereafter Dr. Charles Thaxton, a chemist and academic editor for the Pandas textbook, adopted the term after hearing it mentioned by a NASA engineer. Thaxton’s adoption of the term was not an attempt to evade a court decision, but rather to distinguish ID from creationism, because, in contrast to creationism, ID sought to stay solely within the empirical domain:

I wasn’t comfortable with the typical vocabulary that for the most part creationists were using because it didn’t express what I was trying to do. They were wanting to bring God into the discussion, and I was wanting to stay within the empirical domain and do what you can do legitimately there.

In their effort to tie ID to creationism, the plaintiffs introduced as their “smoking gun” a comparison of the language in early pre-publication drafts of Pandas that used the term “creation” and later pre-publication drafts as well as published editions that used the term “intelligent design.” They alleged the terminology was switched merely in an effort to evade the Edwards v. Aguillard ruling, which found “creation science” unconstitutional. But the plaintiffs (and Judge Jones, who relied on them) were wrong both historically and conceptually.

Historically, it is clear (as just pointed out) that the research that generated the Pandas textbook came years before any of the litigation over “creation science.” Conceptually, early drafts of Pandas, although they used the word “creation,” did not advocate “creationism” as that term was defined by the Supreme Court.

In Edwards v. Aguillard, the Supreme Court found that creationism was religion because it referred to a “supernatural creator.” Yet long before Edwards, pre-publication drafts of Pandas specifically rejected the view that science could determine whether an intelligent cause identified through the scientific method was supernatural. A pre-Edwards draft argued that “observable instances of information cannot tell us if the intellect behind them is natural or supernatural. This is not a question that science can answer.” The same draft explicitly rejected William Paley’s eighteenth century design arguments because they unscientifically “extrapolate to the supernatural” from the empirical data.

The draft stated that Paley was wrong because “there was no basis in uniform experience for going from nature to the supernatural, for inferring an unobserved supernatural cause from an observed effect.” Another pre-publication draft made similar arguments: “[W]e cannot learn [about the supernatural] through uniform sensory experience . . . and so to teach it in science classes would be out of place . . . [S]cience can identify an intellect, but is powerless to tell us if that intellect is within the universe or beyond it.”

By unequivocally affirming that the empirical evidence of science “cannot tell us if the intellect behind [the information in life] is natural or supernatural” it is evident that these pre-publication drafts of Pandas meant something very different by “creation” than did the Supreme Court in Edwards v. Aguillard, in which the Court defined creationism as religion because it postulated a “supernatural creator.”

(David DeWolf, John West, and Casey Luskin, “Intelligent Design Will Survive Kitzmiller v. Dover,” Montana Law Review, Vol. 68:7 (Winter, 2007) (internal citations omitted).)

So, as we approach the retirement of Ms Scott of NCSE, where are we?

Right where Lewontin said in his infamous 1997 NYRB article, Billions and Billions of Demons:

It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes [[–> another major begging of the question . . . ] to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute [[–> i.e. here we see the fallacious, indoctrinated, ideological, closed mind . . . ], for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door. [If you think this is quote-mined, in accord with a typical counter talking point, kindly cf the larger excerpt with annotations here on.]

Philip Johnson’s reply in November that same year is well deserved:

For scientific materialists the materialism comes first; the science comes thereafter. [[Emphasis original] We might more accurately term them “materialists employing science.” And if materialism is true, then some materialistic theory of evolution has to be true simply as a matter of logical deduction, regardless of the evidence. That theory will necessarily be at least roughly like neo-Darwinism, in that it will have to involve some combination of random changes and law-like processes capable of producing complicated organisms that (in Dawkins’ words) “give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose.”
. . . .   The debate about creation and evolution is not deadlocked . . . Biblical literalism is not the issue. The issue is whether materialism and rationality are the same thing. Darwinism is based on an a priori commitment to materialism, not on a philosophically neutral assessment of the evidence. Separate the philosophy from the science, and the proud tower collapses. [[Emphasis added.] [[The Unraveling of Scientific Materialism, First Things, 77 (Nov. 1997), pp. 22 – 25.]

No wonder, Luskin summarises where we have come since the 1920’s  thusly:

The efforts of Darwinian Fundamentalists to insert materialist explanations into the teaching of science in the public school classroom evolved in stages from opposing direct state prohibitions to teaching Darwinian evolution, to opposing balanced treatment of both creationism and evolution, to opposing any mention of scientific alternatives like intelligent design, to refusing to allow even mainstream scientific critiques of their viewpoint to be taught. Thus, while Evolution activists might have had the moral high ground in 1925 during the Scopes trial, Justice Scalia notes that today we have “Scopes in Reverse,” where they try to censor critics by creating a climate of fear and intimidation.

Do you see why I keep on pointing out the warning made by Plato, 2350 years ago now? Namely, this from The Laws, Bk X:

Ath. . . . [[The avant garde philosophers and poets, c. 360 BC] say that fire and water, and earth and air [[i.e the classical “material” elements of the cosmos], all exist by nature and chance, and none of them by art, and that as to the bodies which come next in order-earth, and sun, and moon, and stars-they have been created by means of these absolutely inanimate existences. The elements are severally moved by chance and some inherent force according to certain affinities among them-of hot with cold, or of dry with moist, or of soft with hard, and according to all the other accidental admixtures of opposites which have been formed by necessity. After this fashion and in this manner the whole heaven has been created, and all that is in the heaven, as well as animals and all plants, and all the seasons come from these elements, not by the action of mind, as they say, or of any God, or from art, but as I was saying, by nature and chance only. [[In short, evolutionary materialism premised on chance plus necessity acting without intelligent guidance on primordial matter is hardly a new or a primarily “scientific” view! Notice also, the trichotomy of causal factors:  (a) chance/accident, (b) mechanical necessity of nature, (c) art or intelligent design and direction.] . . . .

[[Thus, they hold that t]he Gods exist not by nature, but by art, and by the laws of states, which are different in different places, according to the agreement of those who make them; and that the honourable is one thing by nature and another thing by law, and that the principles of justice have no existence at all in nature, but that mankind are always disputing about them and altering them; and that the alterations which are made by art and by law have no basis in nature, but are of authority for the moment and at the time at which they are made.– [[Relativism, too, is not new; complete with its radical amorality rooted in a worldview that has no foundational IS that can ground OUGHT. (Cf. here for Locke’s views and sources on a very different base for grounding liberty as opposed to license and resulting anarchistic “every man does what is right in his own eyes” chaos leading to tyranny. )] These, my friends, are the sayings of wise men, poets and prose writers, which find a way into the minds of youth. They are told by them that the highest right is might [[ Evolutionary materialism leads to the promotion of amorality], and in this way the young fall into impieties, under the idea that the Gods are not such as the law bids them imagine; and hence arise factions [[Evolutionary materialism-motivated amorality “naturally” leads to continual contentions and power struggles; cf. dramatisation here],  these philosophers inviting them to lead a true life according to nature, that is, to live in real dominion over others [[such amoral factions, if they gain power, “naturally” tend towards ruthless tyranny], and not in legal subjection to them.

Will it take the infamous 4:00 am knock on the doors by Jack-booted thugs (while the neighbours cower, shivering, behind their doors . . . ), to wake us up?

The authors of a text book that acts like this, should be publicly named and shamed, and the publishers should be exposed as failing in basic duties of care.

On right of fair, credibly informed comment and in light of duties of care for education:

Kern Alexander and M. David Alexander, SHAME ON YOU!

Wadsworth of Belmont, CA: SHAME ON YOU!

And, that this propagation of evident deception under false name of knowledge and education, is in the direct context of shaping the next generation of lawyers, FBI agents, Judges and Legislators, etc, is chilling beyond words.

It is time to wake up now, before it is too late. END

Comments
crerationism just needs more good lawyers from the beginning. The answer was always that teaching the truth in origin classes was the only legitimate objective for the class Banning Genesis or God was in fact saying either its not true, so breaking the separation idea, or the truth is not the objective. Thats all one needed to punch home. censorship means the censored is not true according to the state or the truth is not the objective. bring in the jury. No more incompetent judges of ill intent or ill understanding.Robert Byers
May 8, 2013
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dregstudios: What does the Tennessee bill actually say? Can you provide us with the relevant text or a link? I notice you didn't actually cite the law in your blog article. No offense, but I find that is a typical tactic of those who complain about so-called creationist agendas, because when the complained-of law is actually quoted it doesn't lend itself to getting all worked up about.Eric Anderson
May 8, 2013
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Here in Tennessee, we’re just glad to have our thumbs. Don’t think for a second this will end up in Southern Classrooms of the unprogressive. Christian ideology teaches us to deny, deny, deny as teachers are now allowed to put Creationism into debate against hard facts like this new discovery. Read more about the pulpit in the classroom with some evolutionary artwork on my artist’s blog at http://dregstudiosart.blogspot.com/2012/04/pulpit-in-classroom-biblical-agenda-in.htmldregstudios
May 8, 2013
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billmaz: This is really quite simple: 1. Is x designed? 2. Who designed x? I trust you can see that these are separate questions and that it is possible to answer the first without ever answering, or even asking for that matter, the second. The second question may be interesting, it may even be important. But those who claim it must be answered simply by virtue of the fact that the first question was answered are simply, completely, and logically wrong. There is nothing that requires us to go there. ID is not a theory of everything. It is not intended to be. It has never pretended to be. It addresses question 1. Period. End of story. The proper response to all the fuss about "who the designer is" or "who designed the designer" is not to give in and start speculating about the second question. The proper response is to educate people as to why ID doesn't address the second question.Eric Anderson
May 8, 2013
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Intelligent DESIGN is about, guess what, the detection and study of DESIGN. Also science only cares about reality and there is only one reality behind our existence. And that reality dicatates that in the absence of direct observation or designer input, the only possible way to make any scientific determination about the who, when, why and how, is by studying the design and all relevant evidence. And if our investigation leads us to the metaphysical or supernatural, then so be it. Perhaps we will be unable to study that, ie it would be beyond science. That doesn't falsify Intelligent Design nor make it unscientific. What is unscientific is to say, "well the designer is beyond the reach of science, so even though living organisms are designed we have to approach biology as if they weren't."Joe
May 8, 2013
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5: First, let me thank you for sharing your thoughts, you seem to be new. I note that you are in error, an error driven by an ideological context. One where there is a lot of influence from Lewontin's a priori materialism. The point of the design question, is that we do have a need to reconstruct an unobserved past on evidence we see in the present. This is a general and widespread scientific challenge. The solution, has long been that there are sometimes diagnostic traces. If we can observe in the present that such are characteristically produced by observed factors and circumstances, we can then identify signs that point to the sort of forces and processes that credibly acted. In physical geography, we can explain say how a river comes to have meanders and oxbow lakes, a flood plain and a delta. The same logic extends to the world of life, and indeed 150 years ago Darwin thought he had a major explanation, Natural Selection acting on chance variations. This swept not only biology but culture. Today, many simply cannot imagine that such might suffer explanatory failure. However, some 60 to 50 years ago, a new wave of discoveries ensued. We learned that in the heart of the cell, were things like digital code, algorithms and molecular nanotech machines that carried out the operations of the cell. That brings to bear a very different pattern of traces from the remote past of origins, and a very different cluster of signs. As can be seen here, in the current thread that more properly addresses this topic. (I find it interesting that these things are taken up, not where they best fit, with evidence easily to hand, but cross-threaded. I would suggest that it would be better to carry forward such discussions there.) What, in our uniform experience, best accounts for code systems and complex algorithmic, functional information and implementing machines? For functionally specific, complex organisation and/or associated (often, coded) information? [FSCO/I] The answer is obvious in a world of info tech. Design. And so, the sober-minded options before us are: (i) go with the best explanation, or (ii) provide observational evidence that warrants rejecting such observations. What is NOT a serious option, is to suggest that such is a hidden agenda game to smuggle God/creationism into science, call out the thought police. For decades, many people have been taught that "Evolution" has buried God. Plainly, that is a drawing out of worldview level consequences from science, and it was suggested that to doubt the science because of the sort of consequences highlighted since Plato, was improper, the scientific inferences stand or fall on their inductive logic and factual merits, regardless of potential consequences and worldview conclusions. EXACTLY! Only, with the discoveries since 1953, we are looking at sophisticated info systems in the world of life. The actually observed evidence that such spontaneously originates by blind chance and mechanical necessity (discussed in the other thread) is: ___________________ I can fill in the blank: ZIP. Sophisticated code based info systems, on billions of test cases, come about by: ____________________ The blank can again be filled: DESIGN And that is the context of the design inference on the world of life. At cosmological level, we see evidence of finetuning, that speaks for itself. The focal concern for this thread, is that we find a dangerous strawmannish caricature being presented as textbook orthodoxy in an extremely dangerous setting, Law School. That should be of concern to us all, as if this is happening in one area, you can bet it is happening in a lot of other areas. (And there are signs of that . . . ) As law goes, so goes the state. KFkairosfocus
May 8, 2013
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billmaz
The point is evident, however, which I’ve been trying to make on this blog for some time, that “they” won’t let you get away with simply saying “I detect design” without delving into who that designer might be.
Why should ID cater to what "they" think if they choose to misunderstand and misrepresent the ID hypothesis and its inherent methodological limitations?
You can yell and scream all you want that ID is not concerned with who the designer is, but the hypothesis demands that scientists at least ask the question and propose ways of finding out, politics be damned.
How can a hypothesis "demand" anything? Does the archeologist's hypothesis that an ancient hunter's spear was designed demand that he ask about the hunter's identity? If you are looking for a scientist who thinks he can make the leap from scientific evidence to God, why not try Hugh Ross or Robert Spitzer?
My only point, and I don’t want to ruin this thread, is that the designer is part of SCIENCE, not philosophy or religion, because it forms the core of the ID hypothesis.
So, now it's "your" point? I thought it was "their" point. Just who is it that is "not going to let ID get away with" the inference to an unidentified design agent? It is "them" or is it you? In any case, ID doesn't refer to the existence of the designer as a philosophical concept in the context of its scientific methodology, which means that you don't really have a point.StephenB
May 8, 2013
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"One can’t say that ID is a scientific hypothesis and have at its core of explaining evolution the scientific concept of a designer and then turn around and say that the concept of a designer is a philosophical one, never meant to be looked at scientifically. Do you see the contradiction?"
I don't think I've made this claim. I have suggested that the best tools for examining the requisite properties and nature of "the designer" are philosophy and theology. I'm open to the possibility that a scientific methodology might someday exist for answering different questions than the ones ID seeks to answer. However they would indeed be separate questions, and I've no idea what such methodologies might look like. This is where you might make some progress with a unique theory, but may not be employable in design detection. ID studies the effects of intelligence, and reasons based upon common properties present in those effects when they are observed. This is distinct from studying the nature of the source. The effects of intelligence are apparent in the artifacts it produces. Here is the take home point. There are three "causal" aspects of reality. Without all three, we cannot account for everything we observe in reality. These three aspects are chance, necessity, and agency. Necessity is entailed in physics and chemistry. Chance is accounted for somewhat by probability and statistics, and it has its own unique patterns. Agency accounts for things which exhibit properties readily distinguishable from the former two, which are always observed coming from intelligent beings. The study of each of these aspects of reality requires its own separate methodologies. Intelligent Design seeks to deal with the properties of the effects of the third pillar: intelligence. It really is that simple. As a footnote, nobody claims that ID seeks to encompass accounts of all aspects of intelligent causation. There is plenty of room for other disciplines to develop methodologies for discovering other properties of intelligence and its effects. If culturally we can dispose of the ridiculous notion that everything we observe is the product of physical laws and the interaction of material elements, we might discover some new frontiers of inquiry.Chance Ratcliff
May 8, 2013
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2 cents: I feel that scientists should look at the immediate questions first. To ask who designed a designer should only really be considered when there is tangible evidence to suggest more can be discovered to that end. I.e. don’t trouble yourself over something that is out of our league. If we ever gain a much fuller understanding of dna, for example, to the extent that we can conclude that it could not conceivably have been written/produced/fallen together though natural causes alone – then, and only then really should science start to ask questions like that. I wonder how much time has been wasted in the past by humans naively assuming that something was impossible when in actual fact it was correct all along. My point is this I suppose, do not dismiss that which you do not have the knowledge yet to dismiss and at the same time do not worry about the things you are not yet capable of tackling. To state there is no designer in my option is to state that you FULLY understand dna, both how it works and how it came to be and in light of that knowledge; that there is no room for a architect/engineer (I prefer those terms). It would be Same probably applies the other way, so say there is a designer would suggest that you fully understood that dna could not possibly have arisen naturally. That said it is far easier to say there is evidence for a designer given what we know at the moment than to say there is none. Hmm, I read that back and it doesn’t make as much sense as I intended – articulation is not my thing, too many years of coding will do that to a man. Anyways a quick thanks to everyone on this site (from both sides of the story) I appreciate the time taken to express your thoughts I truly enjoy reading them.bw
May 8, 2013
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I think Casey Luskin's quote in the OP nails it. The reason ID doesn't meet the legal definition of creationism (in his view) is because it does not address the question of who the designer is. Of course if it did address that question, as is shown on this site, the answer is the Christian god. So the whole thing about not investigating who the designer is, is just a legal mechanism to avoid running foul of the law.5for
May 8, 2013
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Correction to #13. "It merely seeks to quantify some of its properties by the effects it produces." It's more accurate to say, It merely seeks to quantify some properties of the effects it produces.Chance Ratcliff
May 8, 2013
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Bill, you wrote,
"If the word designer is used in a scientific hypothesis (ID) then it has to be used in a scientific way, it is a scientific term or concept, by definition."
It follows then, that when any word is used in any scientific hypothesis which might reference an entity inviting additional explanation, that hypothesis must also explain the origin of that entity. That is an unjustifiable requirement. Chemistry presupposes matter, but does not account for its origin. It takes the existence of matter for granted, just as ID takes the existence of intelligence as given, based upon direct observation. Chemistry seeks to elucidate the laws by which material interactions occur at the atomic and molecular level. It does not pretend to be able to account for those laws in the first place. Neither does ID pretend that it can account for the origin of intelligence, as is evident in the universe. It merely seeks to quantify some of its properties by the effects it produces. There's no point in a double standard here.Chance Ratcliff
May 8, 2013
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Bill, you refer to "the designer." With ID methodology, the designer is any being possessing the property of intelligence which is capable of producing the effect in question. For example, instances of writing require a being with at least the capability of written language. This is a threshold condition, not a personal identification. As a matter of philosophy, we could infer certain properties of the designer based upon those observed effects, and reason to general theism: an immaterial, eternal, all-powerful, personal being. As a matter of theology, we could argue that the Biblical God best satisfies the requirements of such a personal being, and justify this based upon special revelation. The concept of a designer is empirical. The identification of the designer of the universe or of living systems is beyond the scope of ID methodology and is either philosophical, or perhaps xenoarchaeological. You might not agree that this should be the case, but the fact remains that it is. You seem to be seeking an additional option, perhaps hoping that ID will identify a designer that is not already a candidate for creator. However, there is nothing new under the sun. ID uses concepts such as specified complexity and irreducible complexity to indicate the involvement of an intelligent being. Let me ask two questions. 1) How would the concepts of irreducible complexity and complex specified information be extended to make a specific identification of a technologically advanced alien race, a new-age universal consciousness, a pantheistic deity, a god of classical theism, or something else entirely? 2) If you agree that the methodologies of item #1 are not useful here, what methodologies would you suggest ID adopt to make such an identification, and how would these differ significantly from the already useful tools of philosophy and theology?Chance Ratcliff
May 8, 2013
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If the word designer is used in a scientific hypothesis (ID) then it has to be used in a scientific way, it is a scientific term or concept, by definition. Otherwise it doesn't belong in a scientific hypothesis. This is important, because one can't have it both ways. One can't say that ID is a scientific hypothesis and have at its core of explaining evolution the scientific concept of a designer and then turn around and say that the concept of a designer is a philosophical one, never meant to be looked at scientifically. Do you see the contradiction?billmaz
May 8, 2013
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My only point, and I don't want to ruin this thread, is that the designer is part of SCIENCE, not philosophy or religion, because it forms the core of the ID hypothesis.billmaz
May 8, 2013
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Billmaz, I get the point. It's natural to want to know everything we can possibly know about something, especially when a mystery is presented. However the methodologies we use to solve such mysteries are different from the ones used to determine whether there is a mystery to solve. When a person finds an arrowhead, that person knows it was the product of intelligence. But how do they know? One might say, "They know because arrowheads have a well-understood purpose." The same is true with pottery and such, which may have been discovered in an archaeological dig. When these types of artifacts are discovered, we use a variety of means to try and determine who, when, why, etc. But there's a hidden assumption smuggled into the process. Arrowheads, pottery, coinage, jewelry, inscriptions, and other artifacts are instinctively understood to be the products of design. But how do we really know? Why is it that an ancient coin discovered buried in the ground should be thought to be the product of intelligence, rather than the result of a geological, material process? How is it that designed objects have features that distinguish them from the products of chance and necessity? What are those features? How do we quantify the difference? Those are a specific set of questions. They require specific answers. If a coin with an inscription indicates the activity of an intelligent being, then how do we differentiate the shape of the coin and the content of the inscription from other debris which might have also been buried with the coin? How is it that we can tell the difference? The usual answers are uninteresting. To answer, "It's because we have experience with that sort of object being produced by humans," is banal, and does nothing to explain how we know. Why is it that when a pebble is unearthed while digging in the ground, nothing of consequence is pondered or searched? Yet if we unearth an ancient coin, we want to know where it comes from, and what civilization left it behind? Those are all interesting and even important questions, but they don't answer this: how do we know that the coin is a product of intelligence but a pebble is just a pebble? Intelligent Design Theory is about answering that very specific question. What features distinguish the products of intelligence from the background of material effects? How did we ever know that ancient and indecipherable inscriptions were the products of intelligent causes, and not just the effects of wind and erosion? It's one thing to say that questions about designers are important, and that who, what, when, where, how questions need to be answered. It's another thing to saddle a theory of design detection with answering those questions. The methodology employed in distinguishing the properties of designed objects from the background noise is entirely separate from the methodologies that would be employed to answer subsequent questions. When we detect design, whatever the context, the subsequent question set changes. When a geologist finds a rock of an odd composition, she would naturally want to know exactly what that composition is, and also what geological processes might have led to its formation. The geologist is not interested in who designed the rock, or when, or what it was used for, because it wouldn't exhibit the properties of design. When an archaeologist finds an ancient coin, he wants to know who made it, and when, perhaps even how. These two question sets are completely different, and hinge on a single prerequisite question: was the object designed? The answer to that question determines which set of questions are subsequently asked. How do we know the difference? What features of designed objects lead to our intuitive recognition of design? What are the qualitative differences? How do we go about quantifying them? Intelligent Design is about answering those specific questions, and not questions from either set of those which follow. Insisting that Intelligent Design Theory be able to identify the designer couldn't be more inappropriate, because it's simply not part of the methodology. Determining the features of designed objects and how they differ from the effects of chance and necessity is the specific goal of IDT. We don't ask geologists who designed the rocks, because that line of questioning is completely inappropriate to the methodology of geology. We don't ask archaeologists to explain how geological processes brought about ancient coinage because it is irrelevant to the line of inquiry. Likewise we don't ask ID theorists to identify the designer because the scientific methodology for design detection does not employ the philosophical and theological tools required to answer such questions. It couldn't be any plainer. Design detection is a specific and focused methodology. Asking ID theorists to identify the designer is about as relevant as asking them to pick next week's lottery numbers. It doesn't employ the tools to answer questions which cannot be addressed by ID methodology. Asking ID to do that which it is not intended to do is asking a scientific pursuit to become a philosophical or theological one. It's simply not reasonable. Philosophical and theological questions can be asked and answered by their own methodologies. Anyway, this is off topic for this thread. Perhaps at some point an OP will address the question: Why should scientific methodologies not be expected to answer philosophical and theological questions?Chance Ratcliff
May 8, 2013
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BM: A quibble, off topic, where an active thread could take up and has background. Also, a second: QM cannot create anything, it is an explanatory theory. Forces acting could create something. As of the discovery and confirmation of cosmological expansion, our observed cosmos cannot always have been there. A multiverse, as was pointed out in an earlier thread -- why do these points jump threads so context has to be repeated over and over? -- is unobserved, thus philosophy nor science. In addition the isolation of the operating point that enables the cosmos we observe, leads to the Leslie isolated fly on the wall swatted by a bullet problem discussed in the always linked. Some stretches may be even carpeted with the beasties, but here there's but one. A reasonable target. And, splat. That needs explanation. To the "get away" talking point, the answer is, that we are doing SCIENCE. Thus, we are reasonably constrained by evidence and where it goes. That may be limited, but it is important. Again, what does the empirical evidence warrant as the causal process that creates FSCO/I again? Design, with supportive evidence that makes blind chance and mechanical necessity maximally unlikely. OOL has for decades resisted naturalistic explanation, and we see the problem getting worse. A pivot is the abundance of FSCO/I in cells. Thus, the known adequate cause of such is relevant. The ONLY empirically warranted cause. And that puts design at the table of evidence-led, truth seeking explanations. And to turn science into applied atheism and sci edu into indoctrination in same -- cf. Lewontin et al and four more major clips in the linked in the OP -- is to de facto create the state established anti-church of secularist radical relativist materialism and its fellow travellers. Which undermines science as disinterested, evidence led empirically grounded investigation targetting the truth about our world. Turns science de facto into an ideological propaganda arm for an establishment. With all that Plato warned against in The Laws brought to bear, the ghost of Alcibiades hovering at his shoulder. Do we as a civilisation REALLY want to go there, in light of repeated consequences, some in living memory? Time to think again. KF PS: BM, you seem to be in search of a worldview, I suggest here on in context and onwards. (Notice the difference between a worldview level and a scientific investigation.)kairosfocus
May 8, 2013
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In his new book, Why does the World Exist? http://www.amazon.com/Why-Does-World-Exist-Existential/dp/0871403595/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1368034092&sr=1-1&keywords=tim+Holt+why+does+the+world+exist Tim Holt examines the history of philosophy, religion and science in trying to answer that question. Of course, he doesn't come up with an answer. Possibilities include "God created it," "It has always been there," and "Quantum Mechanics created it," which still leaves open the question of who created quantum mechanics. The point is evident, however, which I've been trying to make on this blog for some time, that "they" won't let you get away with simply saying "I detect design" without delving into who that designer might be. You can yell and scream all you want that ID is not concerned with who the designer is, but the hypothesis demands that scientists at least ask the question and propose ways of finding out, politics be damned.billmaz
May 8, 2013
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Q: Most of the credit here goes to the brave whistle-blower. Notice, no names given, no prizes for guessing why. (I wonder what would happen to the grades of a student who as a term paper would take apart that text book slander. Given the import of the assertions above, I fear I would have to doubt that the grades for such an assignment would be fair.) And most of the rest is to Luskin et al. I am here more bringing it to our notice than anything else. KFkairosfocus
May 8, 2013
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NBJ: Thanks for sharing your thoughts. A bit off topic, but I will give some pointers. When I look at your post on screen, I infer naturally from the FSCO/I in that post to there being a person using NBJ and commenting here, not to lucky noise that somehow got through the explicit and implicit web filters. And BTW, it is nor merely off complexity -- random text of long enough strings is complex too, but has no evidence of design. The thing is JOINT complexity beyond a reasonable threshold AND functional specificity that confines us to a narrow zone T in a much bigger space of possible strings, dominated utterly by gibberish. Notice the inference is direct and in one stage: from evidence as sign to signified process of cause. That sort of cause, design, we habitually and for good reason associate with intelligent, purposeful, knowledgeable and skilled choice-capable entities. Let me add a symbolisation: I: [Si] --> O, on W I, an observer in a world of experience, observe, I:, a sign or cluster of such, [Si], and rationally infer an objective state of affairs O on a warrant W. Where I came from or where the world came from, etc, or the nature of being able to infer etc are not directly a part of the process. That comes from our being here in a position to act and to reason. I also assume further that you have parents, who had parents, and so forth in a chain back to let us just say Adam and Eve, however many generations back and whatever they looked like and wore. (I did notice that when they did find a cave man wearing fur coat and pants [well leggings], they were TAILORED! Otzi was it?) Inference from FSCO/I to design and onward acceptance that there is a designer who effected the designed object -- the post -- and that the best candidate is NBJ, is independent of whether NBJ is an original original designer or one of a long chain. The evidence supports design as cause and we see other evidence that makes NBJ a good candidate. Now, there would be no infinite regress of designers for life in this cosmos, as the OBSERVED cosmos terminates credibly at a finitely remote time. Usual estimate, 13.7 BYA. To make the inference that NBJ is a good candidate designer for the post does not imply that I have to reflect on however many generations of ancestors are implied by NBJ's existence. All that is relevant is that such a candidate is possible and capable of design. That cosmos itself, also shows strong signs of being fine tuned for life. That points to a reasonable inference being a designer capable of building a cosmos, space-time continuum and contents in toto. A good candidate for such would be a being that is awesomely powerful and with a mind, knowledge and skills to match. Notice, we are not here discussing OOL or of body plans etc, but signs point5ing to design of the observed cosmos. There is a known discussion as to the possibility of a necessary being [we are now looking at phil topics], and one serious candidate for such status, would be able to fit the profile as just described. A necessary being is one that unlike those that are contingent, has no external dependence on an enabling causal factor, i.e. there is no condition that needs to be turned on for such to begin or continue; it has no beginning, has no end will exist in any POSSIBLE world. (A simple example is the truth in 2 + 3 = 5. Always so, in any possible world, never began, will not end.) So, inferring design on signs does not commit one to infinite regress, nor does a regress of causes have anything to do with the validity of the immediate inference. KFkairosfocus
May 8, 2013
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The thing is, the Darwinists should welcome with open arms the challenge of a trojan horse creationist agenda, if they trust the filter of science. If you can't welcome people with a hidden agenda into the fold, that just means the scientific method is inadequate as a filter. So motive-mongering is an admission by Darwinists that motive mongering is part and parcel to the current scientific method. Nice one KF.qwerty
May 8, 2013
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And you can take that to the bank. No better make that, the credit union. They WILL lose.Axel
May 8, 2013
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Yes, but they must accept the truth of the supernatural as the definitive, primordial reality, rather than IDists that it be material. Physics and the mathematics insists upon it. One day soon that Law School will be covered in the same ignominy, well, as the legal profession always has been in the eyes of the general public. Do figs grow on thorns? They just about share that ignominy in equal measure with the politicians into which they so naturally transmogrify, both sharing that natural, mutual affinity, as the rulers of this World - albeit by grace and favour of the plutocrats.Axel
May 8, 2013
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I accept intelligent design as a valid scientific inference from the complexity observed in living things. I also accept that that evidence cannot tell us the nature of the designer. However, if we assume that the designer is natural (and not supernatural), are we not forced into an infinite regression? The obvious question would be, "Who designed the (natural) designer?" I know the evolutionists trot out this same question when the initial assumption is that the designer is supernatural. It seems to me that we are stuck with this question in either case, except for the fact that the supernatural designer (God) is the uncaused first cause.NeilBJ
May 8, 2013
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