Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

A “simple” summing up of the basic case for scientifically inferring design (in light of the logic of scientific induction per best explanation of the unobserved past)

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In answering yet another round of G’s talking points on design theory and those of us who advocate it, I have outlined a summary of design thinking and its links onward to debates on theology,  that I think is worth being  somewhat adapted, expanded and headlined.

With your indulgence:

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>> The epistemological warrant for origins science is no mystery, as Meyer and others have summarised. {Let me clip from an earlier post  in the same thread:

Let me give you an example of a genuine test (reported in Wiki’s article on the Infinite Monkeys theorem), on very easy terms, random document generation, as I have cited many times:

One computer program run by Dan Oliver of Scottsdale, Arizona, according to an article in The New Yorker, came up with a result on August 4, 2004: After the group had worked for 42,162,500,000 billion billion monkey-years, one of the “monkeys” typed, “VALENTINE. Cease toIdor:eFLP0FRjWK78aXzVOwm)-‘;8.t” The first 19 letters of this sequence can be found in “The Two Gentlemen of Verona”. Other teams have reproduced 18 characters from “Timon of Athens”, 17 from “Troilus and Cressida”, and 16 from “Richard II”.[24]

A website entitled The Monkey Shakespeare Simulator, launched on July 1, 2003, contained a Java applet that simulates a large population of monkeys typing randomly, with the stated intention of seeing how long it takes the virtual monkeys to produce a complete Shakespearean play from beginning to end. For example, it produced this partial line from Henry IV, Part 2, reporting that it took “2,737,850 million billion billion billion monkey-years” to reach 24 matching characters:

RUMOUR. Open your ears; 9r”5j5&?OWTY Z0d…

Of course this is chance generating the highly contingent outcome.

What about chance plus necessity, e.g. mutations and differential reproductive success of variants in environments? The answer is, that the non-foresighted — thus chance — variation is the source of high contingency. Differential reproductive success actually SUBTRACTS “inferior” varieties, it does not add. The source of variation is various chance processes, chance being understood in terms of processes creating variations uncorrelated with the functional outcomes of interest: i.e. non-foresighted.

If you have a case, make it . . . .

In making that case I suggest you start with OOL, and bear in mind Meyer’s remark on that subject in reply to hostile reviews:

The central argument of my book is that intelligent design—the activity of a conscious and rational deliberative agent—best explains the origin of the information necessary to produce the first living cell. I argue this because of two things that we know from our uniform and repeated experience, which following Charles Darwin I take to be the basis of all scientific reasoning about the past. First, intelligent agents have demonstrated the capacity to produce large amounts of functionally specified information (especially in a digital form).

Notice the terminology he naturally uses and how close it is to the terms I and others have commonly used, functionally specific complex information. So much for that rhetorical gambit.

He continues:

Second, no undirected chemical process has demonstrated this power.

Got that?

Hence, intelligent design provides the best—most causally adequate—explanation for the origin of the information necessary to produce the first life from simpler non-living chemicals. In other words, intelligent design is the only explanation that cites a cause known to have the capacity to produce the key effect in question . . . . In order to [[scientifically refute this inductive conclusion] Falk would need to show that some undirected material cause has [[empirically] demonstrated the power to produce functional biological information apart from the guidance or activity a designing mind. Neither Falk, nor anyone working in origin-of-life biology, has succeeded in doing this . . .}

In effect, on identifying traces from the remote past, and on examining and observing candidate causes in the present and their effects, one may identify characteristic signs of certain acting causes. These, on observation, can be shown to be reliable indicators or signs of particular causes in some cases.

From this, by inductive reasoning on inference to best explanation, we may apply the Newtonian uniformity principle of like causing like.

It so turns out that FSCO/I is such a sign, reliably produced by design, and design is the only empirically grounded adequate cause known to produce such. Things like codes [as systems of communication], complex organised mechanisms, complex algorithms expressed in codes, linguistic expressions beyond a reasonable threshold of complexity, algorithm implementing arrangements of components in an information processing entity, and the like are cases in point.

It turns out that the world of the living cell is replete with such, and so we are inductively warranted in inferring design as best causal explanation. Not, on a priori imposition of teleology, or on begging metaphysical questions, or the like; but, on induction in light of tested, reliable signs of causal forces at work.

And in that context the Chi_500 expression,

Chi_500 = Ip*S – 500, bits beyond the solar system threshold

. . . is a metric that starts with our ability to measure explicit or information content, directly [an on/off switch such as for the light in a room has two possible states and stores one bit, two store two bits . . . ] or by considering the relevant analysis of observed patterns of configurations. It then uses our ability to observe functional specificity (does any and any configuration suffice, or do we need well-matched, properly arranged parts with limited room for variation and alternative arrangement before function breaks] to move beyond info carrying capacity to functionally specific info.

This is actually commonly observed in a world of info technology.

I have tried the experiment of opening up the background file for an empty basic Word document then noticing the many seemingly meaningless repetitive elements. So, I pick one effectively at random, and clip it out, saving the result. Then, I try opening the file from Word again. It reliably breaks. Seeming “junk digits” are plainly functionally required and specific.

But, as we saw from the infinite monkeys discussion, it is possible to hit on functionally specific patterns if they are short enough, by chance. Though, discovering when one has done so can be quite hard. The sum of the random document exercises is that spaces of about 10^50 are searchable within available resources. At 25 ASCII characters, at 7 bits per character, that is about 175 bits.

Taking in the fact that for each additional bit used in a system, the config space DOUBLES, the difference between 175 or so bits, and the solar system threshold adopted based on exhausting the capacity of the solar system’s 10^57 atoms and 10^17 s or so, is highly significant. At the {500-bit} threshold, we are in effect only able to take a sample in the ratio of one straw’s size to a cubical haystack as thick as our galaxy, 1,000 light years. As CR’s screen image case shows, and as imagining such a haystack superposed on our galactic neighbourhood would show, by sampling theory, we could only reasonably expect such a sample to be typical of the overwhelming bulk of the space, straw.

In short, we have a very reasonable practical threshold for cases where examples of functionally specific information and/or organisation are sufficiently complex that we can be comfortable that such cannot plausibly be accounted for on blind — undirected — chance and mechanical necessity.

{This allows us to apply the following flowchart of logical steps in a case . . . ladder of conditionals . . .  structure, the per aspect design inference, and on a QUANTITATIVE approach grounded in a reasonable threshold metric model:

The per aspect explanatory filter that shows how design may be inferred on empirically tested, reliable sign
The per aspect explanatory filter that shows how design may be inferred on empirically tested, reliable sign

On the strength of that, we have every epistemic right to infer that cell based life shows signs pointing to design. {For instance, consider how ribosomes are used to create new proteins in the cell:

The step-by-step process of protein synthesis, controlled by the digital (= discrete state) information stored in DNA
The step-by-step process of protein synthesis, controlled by the digital (= discrete state) information stored in DNA

And, in so doing, let us zoom in on the way that the Ribosome uses a control tape, mRNA, to step by step assemble a new amino acid chain, to make a protein:

Step by step protein synthesis in action, in the ribosome, based on the sequence of codes in the mRNA control tape (Courtesy, Wikipedia and LadyofHats)
Step by step protein synthesis in action, in the ribosome, based on the sequence of codes in the mRNA control tape (Courtesy, Wikipedia and LadyofHats)

This can be seen as an animation, courtesy Vuk Nikolic:

Let us note the comparable utility of punched paper tape used in computers and numerically controlled industrial machines in a past generation:

Punched paper Tape, as used in older computers and numerically controlled machine tools (Courtesy Wiki & Siemens)
Punched paper Tape, as used in older computers and numerically controlled machine tools (Courtesy Wiki & Siemens)

Given some onward objections, May 4th I add an info graphic on DNA . . .

Fig I.0: DNA as a stored code exhibiting functionally specific complex digital information (HT: NIH)
Fig I.0: DNA as a stored code exhibiting functionally specific complex digital information (HT: NIH)

And a similar one on the implied communication system’s general, irreducibly complex architecture:

A communication system
A communication system. Notice the required arrangement of a set of well-matched, corresponding components that are each necessary and jointly sufficient to achieve function, e.g. coder and decoder, transmitter and receiver, Transmitter, channel and receiver, etc.

In turn,  that brings up the following clip from the ID Foundation series article on Irreducible Complexity, on Menuge’s criteria C1 – 5 for getting to such a system (which he presented in the context of the Flagellum):

But also, IC is a barrier to the usual suggested counter-argument, co-option or exaptation based on a conveniently available cluster of existing or duplicated parts. For instance, Angus Menuge has noted that:

For a working [bacterial] flagellum to be built by exaptation, the five following conditions would all have to be met:

C1: Availability. Among the parts available for recruitment to form the flagellum, there would need to be ones capable of performing the highly specialized tasks of paddle, rotor, and motor, even though all of these items serve some other function or no function.

C2: Synchronization. The availability of these parts would have to be synchronized so that at some point, either individually or in combination, they are all available at the same time.

C3: Localization. The selected parts must all be made available at the same ‘construction site,’ perhaps not simultaneously but certainly at the time they are needed.

C4: Coordination. The parts must be coordinated in just the right way: even if all of the parts of a flagellum are available at the right time, it is clear that the majority of ways of assembling them will be non-functional or irrelevant.

C5: Interface compatibility. The parts must be mutually compatible, that is, ‘well-matched’ and capable of properly ‘interacting’: even if a paddle, rotor, and motor are put together in the right order, they also need to interface correctly.

( Agents Under Fire: Materialism and the Rationality of Science, pgs. 104-105 (Rowman & Littlefield, 2004). HT: ENV.)

In short, the co-ordinated and functional organisation of a complex system  is itself a factor that needs credible explanation.

However, as Luskin notes for the iconic flagellum, “Those who purport to explain flagellar evolution almost always only address C1 and ignore C2-C5.” [ENV.]

And yet, unless all five factors are properly addressed, the matter has plainly not been adequately explained. Worse, the classic attempted rebuttal, the Type Three Secretory System [T3SS] is not only based on a subset of the genes for the flagellum [as part of the self-assembly the flagellum must push components out of the cell], but functionally, it works to help certain bacteria prey on eukaryote organisms. Thus, if anything the T3SS is not only a component part that has to be integrated under C1 – 5, but it is credibly derivative of the flagellum and an adaptation that is subsequent to the origin of Eukaryotes. Also, it is just one of several components, and is arguably itself an IC system. (Cf Dembski here.)

Going beyond all of this, in the well known Dover 2005 trial, and citing ENV, ID lab researcher Scott Minnich has testified to a direct confirmation of the IC status of the flagellum:

Scott Minnich has properly tested for irreducible complexity through genetic knock-out experiments he performed in his own laboratory at the University of Idaho. He presented this evidence during the Dover trial, which showed that the bacterial flagellum is irreducibly complex with respect to its complement of thirty-five genes. As Minnich testified: “One mutation, one part knock out, it can’t swim. Put that single gene back in we restore motility. Same thing over here. We put, knock out one part, put a good copy of the gene back in, and they can swim. By definition the system is irreducibly complex. We’ve done that with all 35 components of the flagellum, and we get the same effect. [Dover Trial, Day 20 PM Testimony, pp. 107-108. Unfortunately, Judge Jones simply ignored this fact reported by the researcher who did the work, in the open court room.]

That is, using “knockout” techniques, the 35 relevant flagellar proteins in a target bacterium were knocked out then restored one by one.

The pattern for each DNA-sequence: OUT — no function, BACK IN — function restored.

Thus, the flagellum is credibly empirically confirmed as irreducibly complex. [Cf onward discussion on Knockout Studies, here.]

The kinematic von Neumann self-replicating machine [vNSR] concept is then readily applicable to the living cell:

jvn_self_replicator
The kinematic vNSR shows how stored coded information on a tape can be used to control a self-replicating automaton, relevant to both paper tape and the living cell

Mignea’s model of minimal requisites for a self-replicating cell [speech here], are then highly relevant as well:

self_replication_mignea
Mignea’s schematic of the requisites of kinematic self-replication, showing duplication and arrangement then separation into daughter automata. This requires stored algorithmic procedures, descriptions sufficient to construct components, means to execute instructions, materials handling, controlled energy flows, wastes disposal and more. (Source: Mignea, 2012, slide show as linked; fair use.)

HT CR, here’s a typical representation of cell replication through Mitosis:

And, we may then ponder Michael Denton’s reflection on the automated world of the cell, in his foundational book, Evolution, a Theory in Crisis (1986):

To grasp the reality of life as it has been revealed by molecular biology, we must magnify a cell a thousand million times until it is twenty kilometers in diameter [[so each atom in it would be “the size of a tennis ball”] and resembles a giant airship large enough to cover a great city like London or New York. What we would then see would be an object of unparalleled complexity and adaptive design. On the surface of the cell we would see millions of openings, like the port holes of a vast space ship, opening and closing to allow a continual stream of materials to flow in and out. If we were to enter one of these openings we would find ourselves in a world of supreme technology and bewildering complexity. We would see endless highly organized corridors and conduits branching in every direction away from the perimeter of the cell, some leading to the central memory bank in the nucleus and others to assembly plants and processing units. The nucleus itself would be a vast spherical chamber more than a kilometer in diameter, resembling a geodesic dome inside of which we would see, all neatly stacked together in ordered arrays, the miles of coiled chains of the DNA molecules. A huge range of products and raw materials would shuttle along all the manifold conduits in a highly ordered fashion to and from all the various assembly plants in the outer regions of the cell.
 
We would wonder at the level of control implicit in the movement of so many objects down so many seemingly endless conduits, all in perfect unison. We would see all around us, in every direction we looked, all sorts of robot-like machines . . . . We would see that nearly every feature of our own advanced machines had its analogue in the cell: artificial languages and their decoding systems, memory banks for information storage and retrieval, elegant control systems regulating the automated assembly of components, error fail-safe and proof-reading devices used for quality control, assembly processes involving the principle of prefabrication and modular construction . . . . However, it would be a factory which would have one capacity not equaled in any of our own most advanced machines, for it would be capable of replicating its entire structure within a matter of a few hours . . . .
 
Unlike our own pseudo-automated assembly plants, where external controls are being continually applied, the cell’s manufacturing capability is entirely self-regulated . . . .[[Denton, Michael, Evolution: A Theory in Crisis, Adler, 1986, pp. 327 – 331. This work is a classic that is still well worth reading. Emphases added. (NB: The 2009 work by Stephen Meyer of Discovery Institute, Signature in the Cell, brings this classic argument up to date. The main thesis of the book is that: “The universe is comprised of matter, energy, and the information that gives order [[better: functional organisation]  to matter and energy, thereby bringing life into being. In the cell, information is carried by DNA, which functions like a software program. The signature in the cell is that of the master programmer of life.” Given the sharp response that has provoked, the onward e-book responses to attempted rebuttals, Signature of Controversy, would also be excellent, but sobering and sometimes saddening, reading.) ]}

An extension of this, gives us reason to infer that body plans similarly show signs of design. And, related arguments give us reason to infer that a cosmos fine tuned in many ways that converge on enabling such C-chemistry, aqueous medium cell based life on habitable terrestrial planets or similarly hospitable environments, also shows signs of design.

Not on a prioi impositions, but on induction from evidence we observe and reliable signs that we establish inductively. That is, scientifically.

Added, May 11: Remember, this focus on the cell is in the end because it is the root of the Darwinist three of life and as such origin of life is pivotal:

The Smithsonian's tree of life model, note the root in OOL
The Smithsonian’s tree of life model, note the root in OOL

Multiply that by the evidence that there is a definite, finitely remote beginning to the observed cosmos, some 13.7 BYA being a common estimate, and 10 – 20 BYA a widely supported ballpark. That says, it is contingent, has underlying enabling causal factors, and so is a contingent, caused being.

All of this to this point is scientific, with background logic and epistemology.

Not theology, revealed or natural.

It owes nothing to the teachings of any religious movement or institution.

However, it does provide surprising corroboration to the statements of two apostles who went out on a limb philosophically by committing the Christian faith in foundational documents to reason/communication being foundational to observed reality, our world. In short the NT concepts of the Logos [John 1, cf Col 1, Heb 1, Ac 17] and that the evident, discernible reality of God as intelligent creator from signs in the observed cosmos [Rom 1 cf Heb 11:1 – 6, Ac 17 and Eph 4:17 – 24], are supported by key findings of science over the past 100 or so years.

There are debates over timelines and interpretations of Genesis, as well there would be.

They do not matter, in the end, given the grounds advanced on the different sides of the debate. We can live with Gen 1 – 11 being a sweeping, often poetic survey meant only to establish that the world is not a chaos, and it is not a product of struggling with primordial chaos or wars of the gods or the like. The differences between the Masoretic genealogies and those in the ancient translation, the Septuagint, make me think we need to take pause on attempts to precisely date creation on such evidence. Schaeffer probably had something right in his suggestion that one would be better advised to see this as describing the flow and outline of Biblical history rather than a precise, sequential chronology. And that comes up once we can see how consistently reliable the OT is as reflecting its times and places, patterns and events, even down to getting names right.

So, debating Genesis is to follow a red herring and go off to pummel a strawman smeared with stereotypes and set up for rhetorical conflagration. A fallacy of distraction, polarisation and personalisation. As is too often found as a habitual pattern of objectors to design theory.

What is substantial is the evidence on origins of our world and of the world of cell based life in the light of its challenge to us in our comfortable scientism.

And, in that regard, we have again — this is the umpteenth time, G; and you have long since worn out patience and turning the other cheek in the face of personalities, once it became evident that denigration was a main rhetorical device at work — had good reason to see that design theory is a legitimate scientific endeavour, regardless of rhetorical games being played to make it appear otherwise.>>

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In short, it is possible to address the design inference and wider design theory without resort to ideologically loaded debates. And, as a first priority, we should. END

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PS: In support of my follow up to EA at 153 below, at 157, it is worth adding (May 8th) the Trevors-Abel diagram from 2005 (SOURCE), contrasting the patterns of OSC, RSC and FSC:

osc_rsc_fsc

Figure 4: Superimposition of Functional Sequence Complexity onto Figure 2. The Y1 axis plane plots the decreasing degree of algorithmic compressibility as complexity increases from order towards randomness. The Y2 (Z) axis plane shows where along the same complexity gradient (X-axis) that highly instructional sequences are generally found. The Functional Sequence Complexity (FSC) curve includes all algorithmic sequences that work at all (W). The peak of this curve (w*) represents “what works best.” The FSC curve is usually quite narrow and is located closer to the random end than to the ordered end of the complexity scale. Compression of an instructive sequence slides the FSC curve towards the right (away from order, towards maximum complexity, maximum Shannon uncertainty, and seeming randomness) with no loss of function.

Comments
The article is good BUT ITS EVEN GRANTS TOO MUCH. DNA Im sorry, can methinks a weasel produce a kidney? These are just letters than have no meaning in russian or chineese--they do nothing unless the rules are layed out in advance by intelligence. Can monkeys design the operating system to build the rotors and turbines in a cell? This monkey typing idea only demonstrates one thing--how utterly dysfunctional the atheist reasoning is. The rules for what you are reading now are layed out in advance..they have no meaning in themselves--they mind as well be sdhfiuahfia9083.)(329. Can a monkey match that? Can randomness produce that? Who cares? There needs to be an operating system or the code just lays there. Shakespeare cannot setup the electrical and pressure system of the 4 chamber heart. The written word cannot in any way shape or form be compared to machine code. Even if you were able to produce a blueprint at random--which you could not--it could not build the Cell. To imagine all you need is what amounts to a word is to be sent immediately to special class. The argument is so obviously juvenile--I cant see why it is even addressed at length. Just because Dawkins is smart--it should not be granted that he even approaches a coherent thought on this topic. What Im afraid is that this not just simple dishonesty--it is mental deficiency. This is simple reasoning a child can see--so how do we explain grown men swiming around in this pile of most ludicrous soup? Bias--and the inability of the atheist brain to detect purpose--a well documented fact.serious123
August 9, 2013
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F/N: Let me extend the clip from ch 2 of NT: _________ >> There cannot be design without a designer; contrivance, without a contriver; order, without choice ; arrangement, without any thing capable of arranging ; subserviency and relation to a purpose, without that which could intend a purpose; means suitable to an end, and executing their office in accomplishing that end, without the end ever having been contemplated, or the means accommodated to it. Arrangement, disposition of parts, subserviency of means to an end, relation of instruments to a use, imply the presence of intelligence and mind. No one, therefore, can rationally believe that the insensible, inanimate watch, from which the watch before us issued, was the proper cause of the mechanism we so much admire in it—could be truly said to have constructed the instrument, disposed its parts, assigned their office, determined their order, action, and mutual dependency, combined their several motions into one result, and that also a result connected with the utilities of other beings. All these properties, therefore, are as much unaccounted for as they were before. IV. Nor is any thing gained by running the difficulty farther back, that is, by supposing the watch before us to have been produced from another watch, that from a former, and so on indefinitely. Our going back ever so far brings us no nearer to the least degree of satisfaction upon the subject. Contrivance is still unaccounted for. "We still want a contriver. A designing mind is neither supplied by this supposition nor dispensed with. If the difficulty were diminished the farther we went back, by going back indefinitely we might exhaust it. And this is the only case to which this sort of reasoning applies . . . >> _________ Notice, carefully, the chain of inference Paley here makes: design is made manifest in the self reproduction mechanism in his thought exercise self replicating watch, as with any other mechanism, by the existence of evident contrivance, the selection and arrangement of parts in complex array to achieve evident and specific, arrangement-dependent functional end. He goes on to make the additional inference that on seeing design as best explanation of contrivance, we can see that sequence of replication events does not answer to whence cometh the mechanism. It is simply irrelevant, and indeed he argues that his holds for even an infinite chain of successive replications. He also makes a significant inference: design implies purpose and purpose implies designing mind. That is, on the evidence of the contrivance that entails, design, he infers further that designs are manifestations of purpose and skill leading to effort that issues in contrivance. So, designs provide evidence of designers. He even makes the point in Ch 1 that remoteness in time is irrelevant. Symbolising:
[a] Observation --> [b] evident complex functionally specific contrivance --> [c] design as best explanation --> [d] purpose as further best explanation --> [e] the mind of a designer as the "place" where purpose lives --> [f] the existence of a designer (even one otherwise unknown) who has that mind
Now, of course, all of this is at intuitive level. Paley is too early also for the results of statistical thermodynamics, so he does not have the apparatus to formally address configuration spaces W and narrow target zones T within that can achieve function, thence search challenges for unintelligent cause in a gamut of 10^57 atoms of our solar system or the 10^80 of our observed cosmos, within 13.7 BY or so. But in truth the intuitive argument on inferring design as process form evidence of contrivance, and thereafter inferring that designs point to designers is right. (It is beyond this, when he makes arguments that try to deduce God from design and the attributes of God in broader theology, and the claims he seems to have made about the nature of the world, that there are material difficulties. We are not interested in such, the focal matter is the basic design inference on evident contrivance, including the issue of function multiplied by the ADDITIONAL facility of reproduction.) The modern development considerably broadens and strengthens the point, without undermining its essential nature. Evident contrivance that is beyond the reasonable search capacity reach of blind watchmaker mechanisms, is reasonable evidence of design. Design, implies purposeful configuration of parts towards a complex specific functional whole. Purpose speaks to mind. So, from evident contrivance of sufficient complexity and specificity of function, we are in our epistemic rights to infer designer at the relevant point of origin. It matters not if that time is c. 5 BYA for the solar system, or 13.7 BYA for the observed cosmos. Such times and atomic resources, as has been shown repeatedly, per needle in haystack or millions of monkeys at keyboards points constrained by the numbers of available atoms and time, are not enough to make something of 500 - 1,000 bits worth of complexity a reasonable product of blind chance and/or mechanical necessity. In addition, we have the weight of a mass of billions of cases in point -- without credible exception -- that we do directly see FSCO/I being made all the time. By design. So, it is time for strawman arguments to be laid aside and for the issue to be seriously addressed on its merits. KFkairosfocus
May 12, 2013
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EA (& J): I think much of this appeal to the alleged wonderful capacity of natural selection would first be deflated if it were consistently asked: on what specific direct empirically observed grounds do you infer this capacity? (It will soon enough turn out that much of the assurance is in the end driven by the a priori materialism of Lewontin backed up by so-called methodological naturalism, which makes the slightest indication of minor adaptations -- finch beaks, blind cave fish and the like -- seem like confirmation of something that is vastly extrapolated. Only, at the price of begging big questions, as Johnson pointed out in reply to Lewontin.) However, the deeper issue, is that this appeal to natural selection by differential reproductive success in the context of chance variation -- per force of the underlying logic -- carries us straight to what EL and ever so many others are wont to try to exclude from consideration (as not being a strict part of the Darwinian theory of evolution), the ROOT of the tree of life. That is, the origin of cell based life. Which is of course the focus of the OP above. For, if something has such a wonderful capacity, it is entirely legitimate to ask, whence came it and how doth it act, with what demonstrated power. And that carries us in turn to the question of how cells replicate and how the required genetic, regulatory and epigenetic information and functionally specific, complex organisation, come to be. Thence, we face the von Neumann Self Replicator [vNSR] facility of the living cell, which is of course code using and an instance of such FSCO/I. Where just the genomes in question credibly (per known genomes) start at about 100,000 - 1 mn bits worth of information, 100 - 1,000 times the number of bits at the FSCO/I threshold. For major body plans we are talking 10 - 100 mn bit increments in genome sizes. All of that information and complex functionally specific organisation have to come from somewhere and there has to be sufficient empirical warrant that we are not dealing with speculation as opposed to empirically warranted theory. Where, the only empirically grounded, needle in haystack plausible source for such information, codes and organisation, is design as causal process. Which renders such design the candidate to beat. Going beyond, we face the further point that Paley raised in Ch 2 of his essay, in which he extended his watch found in the field argument to address precisely the question of the alleged material difference of finding something to be self replicating (and by extension reproducing):
Suppose, in the next place, that the person who found the watch should after some time discover that, in addition to all the properties which he had hitherto observed in it, it possessed the unexpected property of producing in the course of its movement another watch like itself -- the thing is conceivable; that it contained within it a mechanism, a system of parts -- a mold, for instance, or a complex adjustment of lathes, baffles, and other tools -- evidently and separately calculated for this purpose . . . . The first effect would be to increase his admiration of the contrivance, and his conviction of the consummate skill of the contriver. Whether he regarded the object of the contrivance, the distinct apparatus, the intricate, yet in many parts intelligible mechanism by which it was carried on, he would perceive in this new observation nothing but an additional reason for doing what he had already done -- for referring the construction of the watch to design and to supreme art . . . . He would reflect, that though the watch before him were, in some sense, the maker of the watch, which, was fabricated in the course of its movements, yet it was in a very different sense from that in which a carpenter, for instance, is the maker of a chair -- the author of its contrivance, the cause of the relation of its parts to their use. [Nat Theol, 1804]
What I find interesting, after repeatedly calling attention to this argument from 1804, is that it anticipates what we would learn 150 years later about how cells actually reproduce, though of course Paley was too early to know about Babbage's work on algorithmic information processing technology. I also find it significant that it is normally ignored when the usual appeal is made, which has the effect of turning not only Paley's basic argument but the onward and much more sophisticated work of modern design theorists, into a strawman caricature. That should stop. KFkairosfocus
May 12, 2013
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Joe @190: If that is what Lizzie said then she doesn't understand how to use the filter.* Someone please take it away from her before anyone gets hurt. ----- * My hunch is that Lizzie thinks the bacterial flagellum not being designed is because it is part of a self-replicating system? That seems to be the . . . sorry I had to pause for a moment due to laughter . . . and again . . . key to her imagination of what wondrous things natural forces can accomplish.Eric Anderson
May 11, 2013
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It looks like they just need to pay the rent...Joe
May 11, 2013
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Looks so, I hope that is not another wave of hacking. I don't wish that on anyone. KF PS: I now recommend monster passwords, 15 + characters, mixing upper and lower case, numerals and symbolic characters, as that makes search spaces big. 128^15 ~ 4 * 10^31, 26^15 ~ 1.7 * 10^21, 26^8 ~ 2 * 10^11. Such are the realities of config spaces W, and Target zones within, T.kairosfocus
May 11, 2013
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Well it appears the TSZ is down for now anyway...Joe
May 11, 2013
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Joe: Except, perhaps, to see just how the thinking she is using looks in the cold light of day. The flagellum has in it say 30 unique proteins, at 200 AA per -- lowish, we see 6,000 codons needed, at three letters per codon. 2 bits each: 36,000 bits without reckoning with self assembly, regulation, integration into sensing and response etc. Far beyond the FSCO/I threshold. KFkairosfocus
May 11, 2013
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OK one last one that demonstrates it is hopeless to get through to Lizzie:
We apply it to Stonehenge. It comes back positive. Cool. We know (with whatever degree of confidence you like, it needn’t be 100%) that a designer is necessary for Stonehenge to exist, therefore we can infer a designer for Stonehenge. Now we apply it to a bacterial flagellum. It comes back negative.
In who's book and by what methodology does the bacterial flagellum produce a negative but something much more simple and a lot less intricate, like Stonehenge, brings back a positive? 50,000+ generations of E. coli and there isn't any indication that darwinian processes can produce multi-protein systems. Lizzie believes what she does in spite of the evidence. And that means there isn't anything that would convince her otherwise. But then again, I am sure most everyone here already knew that...Joe
May 10, 2013
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F: Do you want to take up the Darwin essay challenge or at least give us a list of 10 substantive objections? KFkairosfocus
May 10, 2013
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OM is still bunbling around:
Then why did it take so long and so many generations for the intelligence already embedded in Lenski’s bacteria to make the required changes so it could digest citrate?
Because it didn't require that to survive. And there were obvioulsy more than one way to keep surviving. BTW all of Lenski's bacteria have the ability to digest citrate.
In fact, you would expect all lineages to have that change, but they all did not.
That is false and demonstrates your total lack of understanding. Only if getting the citrate in the presence of O2 was the ONLT way to survive would we expect such a thing. And that was NOT the case. IOW OM still thinks that its ignorance is some sort of refutation.Joe
May 10, 2013
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F: First, your resort to insinuations of cowardice, is an uncivil personality, especially when a reason has already been given. As in, what part of I see no good reason to wade into a long, time wasting exchange -- do you recall the 2 months exchange on UB's simple summary of what information systems in the relevant sense are about, which is instantly recognisable to someone familiar with modern information theory and communication systems? or, the long and silly word games over the term "arbitrary" -- with the abusive, enablers of the abusive and too often the willfully obtuse, is it too hard to understand? (Or, are we now so Biblically illiterate that we have forgotten a saying in the Sermon on the Mount about pearls and those utterly disinclined to appreciate them?) I have laid out a case in simple summary above. That case is based on an inductive exercise in light of reliable signs and their signified states of affairs. If it has been falsified, it will not be on word games or speculative assertions or question-begging redefinitions of science, or the like, but by clear, empirically backed observed counter-example, with particular reference to the origin of life. Or else, by evident reason showing a breakdown in inductive logic. If you have such a clear counter example, give it. If you have a substantial objection on cogent reasoning or evident facts, give it. That you did not but resorted to personalities already, shows that it is highly likely that you cannot meet that basic, long since well known test of scientific reasoning. If that is not the case, prove me wrong. Failing that, it seems you are playing at denigratory emotional rhetorical manipulation tactics and perception games in absence of actual cogent argument on soundly established, observed facts. Demanding that I prove my courage by wandering over to a venue where, on experience over quite a fair length of time now, I will find little substance and abundant fallacies, is not going to hack it. When something significant has been popped up here, I have answered it, and when there were long exchanges on the subject here over the course of literally years, I answered them. The evidence I see so far is that we are dealing with recycled, long since answered points, multiplied by evasions of the core case, an inductive logic case on empirical evidence over the source of FSCO/I. Where also the inductive logic involved should be instantly familiar to those who have seriously dealt with the common experience in science of having to deal with things that are not directly observable. You will notice for instance, a summary on what seems relevant for the moment, at 157 and 170 above, etc. Let me help you. List your top ten questions, if that is what you think is needed. KF PS: I have simply responded to what has been brought here (and on a long base of experience), trusting or failing to trust Joe has nothing to do with it: cf examples of what I have found myself having to deal with at TSZ here most recently (OM, AF, RTH, also EL -- the invidious comparison to Nazism and witch hunts, cf. 170 above), here (Toronto -- could not get empirically grounded, provisional inference to best explanation regarding inferring on unobservables straight) and here (Petrushka -- claimed, demonstrably falsely, that I threatened banning for mere disagreement). Insistent, slanderously unwarranted invidious comparison to nazism, backed up by enabling behaviour or gross fallacies and willful, well-poisoning misrepresentations do not commend your site, F. It marks a descent to the fever swamp level of sites that I will not even name. The obvious implication is: if you have a case to make, bring it on on the merits. Starting with the now nearing eight month old open free kick at goal challenge to provide a 6,000 word essay on the Darwinian tree of life, with the root in OOL, and onwards to the main body plan branches and upwards to the origin of man with linguistic, reasoning ability. The above summary on our side takes up a bit over half that length and covers the main case with a focus on OOL.kairosfocus
May 10, 2013
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franklin:
kf, it is your failure to directly address the criticisms presented at TSZ that speaks volumes as every onlooker can attest too.
All I see is whining. I have asked them to lead by example and they fail to do so. And until we know what they will accept, which they can do without us, there isn't anything to respond to. And if it wasn't for me, the fine denizens of UD wouldn't even know nor care what happens over there. So perhaps you should just thank me and leave it at that. And you can shove your innuendos [SNIP]... Please do better! Coward.Joe
May 9, 2013
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kf, it is your failure to directly address the criticisms presented at TSZ that speaks volumes as every onlooker can attest too. Instead you 'hide' behind a UD firewall and from your responses it appears that you 'trust' Joe to be a fair arbiter and reporter of the content and context of what is posted at TSZ. That speaks volumes as to your credibility given Joe's track record around the internet. If you had the courage of your convictions you would engage your critics directly rather than sniping at them from your sanctuary. Please do better!franklin
May 9, 2013
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TSZ Denizens: I have yet to see any good reason to try to invest time & effort and put up with the sort of attitude and behaviour that are evident in situations like that. Not interested, save maybe in speaking for record -- and UD is at least as good for that. If your case cannot be made under forum rules that enforce a modicum of civility, the case is not worth the effort to deal with it. The fact is, in a bit over a week, it will be eight months of silence -- apart from some snipping, strawmannising and fallacy-laced sniping -- on a free kick at goal. That failure to take up a good faith offer to make the case speaks volumes. And this very thread lays out a simple version of the design inference on a pivotal case (at significantly shorter length than 6,000 words, 3600+ I think). The reactions from objectors I am seeing do not impress me for cogency or substance. KFkairosfocus
May 9, 2013
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OM responds:
Well, apart from anything else (such as the link above) we’ve never seen any evidence of it being intelligently guided.
The link above has been refuted and you haven't given any indication that you know how to evaluate evidence.
But int he meanwhile you said something about Newton and unneeded entities? Well, that. So the possibility remains open, but we have an explanation we’re happy with thanks.
LoL! Your "explanation" is untestable and tehrefor not scientific.
So it’s not been determined that evolution is unguided.
Obvioulsy it has otherwise there wouldn't be any issues with ID. And again OM provides absolutely nothing to support anything it posted. BTW what negative do you think I am intent on proving? Asking you for POSITIVE evidence for your position is not asking to prove a negative. Only a moron would think so and here you are. So there you have it, they have nothing but bald assertions and false accusations and are apparently proud of it.Joe
May 9, 2013
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Richie "cupcake" Hughes is having difficulty with my post in 136. He doesn't understand that if we cannot answer the question in the decision box that it just stays there and we say "we don't know". That is unbelieveable stupidity, even for Richie.Joe
May 9, 2013
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Eric:
Ya know, I went outside the other day and saw some rocks. At first I thought perhaps they weren’t designed, but then I realized they couldn’t self-replicate, which tipped me off that they must have been designed. Yeah, right. How can someone actually think that: (i) self replication automatically provides the means for design substitute, and (ii) the absence of self-replication is a reliable criterion of design?
To which om responded with:
Yes, because that’s what being claimed Eric. And they complain about being misrepresented!
Who is making that claim and what is the reasoning? I ask because it does not make any sense that (i) self replication automatically provides the means for design substitute, and (ii) the absence of self-replication is a reliable criterion of design. So please, clarify yourself, if you can. Unfortunately OM doesn't seem to be capable of being clear.Joe
May 9, 2013
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Lizzie is just deluded:
Joe G is obviously {EL, snip!] that he got banned here...
So my getting banned is the reason why you misrepresent Intelligent Design? THAT is what [Joe, snip], Lizzie. THAT and the fact you constantly overstate your position and never provide anything to substantiate your claims. All of that [snip], Lizzie. And all of that is the reason for my link that caused you to have a hissy fit. Then an obtuse [snip] chimes in:
If their position is being misrepresented then all it takes is KF, once, to come over here and set the record straight.
We have set the record straight. It isn't our fault that you and your ilk are hopeless losers. And it is very noticeable and telling that they still don't lead by example. And that is something else that [snip], Lizzie. You and your ilk run your mouths but never ante up. "it looks like unguided evolution to me" isn't science...Joe
May 9, 2013
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Apparently for Dr Liddle, if something can undergo Darwinian evolution, then it doesn't even need an explanation, She repeats her slogan - Why invoke design? Just believe in evolution'. Ohhhh, but wait-
Elizabeth Liddle: You know, Upright BiPed, you are absolutely right! Darwinian evolution doesn’t explain how replication with heritable variation in reproductive success first came into being!
(Elzinga, it does not indicate, nor does it require "hatred" to recognize someone as intellectually dishonest).Upright BiPed
May 9, 2013
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Eric @177,
"How can someone actually think that: (i) self replication automatically provides the means for design substitute..."
I think they believe that the burden of evidence for unguided evolution has been met: nobody has shown it to be impossible. There is one "scientific" biological theory of diversity: unguided evolution.Chance Ratcliff
May 9, 2013
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And, as I have said many times, the big hint that MarsHenge was designed is that it doesn’t self-replicate . . .
That has to rank as one of the most ridiculous comments I've heard all week. Why would anyone think that is even a rational statement? Ya know, I went outside the other day and saw some rocks. At first I thought perhaps they weren't designed, but then I realized they couldn't self-replicate, which tipped me off that they must have been designed. Yeah, right. How can someone actually think that: (i) self replication automatically provides the means for design substitute, and (ii) the absence of self-replication is a reliable criterion of design? Is anyone home?Eric Anderson
May 9, 2013
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Poor widdle Mikey Elzinga thinks that because we say Lizzie misrepresents our arguments and is incapable of honestly reprsenting them, means that we hate her. Mikey knows quite a bit about hate as it is obvious that he is driven by his hatred of Morris, Gish and other dead & living creationsists and IDists. And all widdle Mikey can do is falsely accuse us of not understanding science yet he too fails to provide examples of how it is supposed to be done properly.Joe
May 9, 2013
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There is questionable reasoning afoot. According to what I gather from Joe's cut-and-pasted comments of EL: 1) A thing can exhibit the features of design yet unless we can identify the designer we cannot infer design. 2) Something can exhibit the features of design yet if it self-replicates we cannot infer design. In both cases, something can exhibit the features of design, so I suppose that's an admission that design is objectively detectable after all. EL just appeals to two separate, contrived technicalities in order to avoid the inference. It's not really a position of strength.Chance Ratcliff
May 9, 2013
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Lizzie just doesn't get it:
And, as I have said many times, the big hint that MarsHenge was designed is that it doesn’t self-replicate, so that option is off the table.
Umm, Lizzie, your position cannot explain self-replication. And just because you can say that the question of who designed it cannot be separated from the question of is it designed, that doesn't make it so. Reality refutes you as it is a given that we have to figure out that it was designed before we can figure out how and who designed it. Archaeology- Stonehenge is designed and THEN the who & how, and we still don't know exactly who & how.Joe
May 9, 2013
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Why is there so much hatred towards her on the part of the UD people?
Well, I certainly don't hate Lizzie. Indeed, I actually enjoyed some of her thoughts and our exchanges when she posted here. However, it has become apparent over time that she is unwilling or incapable of honestly representing the design argument, notwithstanding numerous and repeated corrections. That results in a loss of credibility. Further, she exhibits a blind faith and enamorment in the power of materialist natural processes to produce what they have never been known to produce. That isn't so much a credibility issue, but it does make us shake our heads sometimes.Eric Anderson
May 9, 2013
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This is why science is iterative.
The explanatory filter is an iterative process. And it happens to be an iterative process mandated by scientific investigation-> see Newton's Four Rules
This is why ID is not science.
And yet we arrive at any given design inference via an iterative process that requires knowledge gained via observations, experiments and experiences. Why don't YOU lead by example Lizzie? Why don't you tell us the iterative process(es) used to determine that the diversity of living organisms evolved via unguided, purposeless, blind, mindless processes. And then tell us why these processes do not live up to expectations when they are directly observed. For example after more than 50,000 generations Lenski's bacteria still haven't developed any new proteins, let alone new protein-to-protein binding sites. Present to us these alleged testable hypotheses and predictions borne from darwinian processes. You keep saying that we are doing it wrong yet you cannot show us how you guys do it correctly. Why is that?Joe
May 9, 2013
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ME: I pity EL, at this stage. I do not hate -- and never have hated -- her. She has however stood up in public to champion a view and in so doing has distorted the views of others to the advantage of what she hopes to promote. I have a right of fair comment in reply. KFkairosfocus
May 9, 2013
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Joe (& EA, as well as EL et al): It is clear that the first pivotal question is: Q1: Are there things in our world of experience, which exhibit SIGNS that, per repeated empirical observation amounting to a regularity, reliably indicate the already known state of being designed? A1: There are such, FSCO/I being a good umbrella term for many of such. Posts in this thread and over at objecting sites are good examples, showing the difference between:
OSC: ghghghghghgh . . . , RSC: fheihtu3hbhwfyf . . . and FSC: a functional sequence in English, ASCII-coded text
. Q2: Are we then epistemically entitled to trust such SIGNS in cases where we have not seen the actual direct cause of the relevant objects? A2: Such is the nature of inductive reasoning, and of science, where on observing an evident uniformity, we have reason to trust it unless shown not to be general. Such, for instance is how Newton reasoned. And, as we saw, it is how Lyell and Darwin reasoned, IN ADDRESSING THE REMOTE, UNOBSERVABLE PAST. Namely, if we see an evidently uniform pattern where a given sign or cluster of signs is characteristic of a given causal factor, we have good reason to infer from sign to signified, unless and until the sign is shown to have limitations or to be an error. To pick and choose where this is accepted is to play at selectively hyperspeptical games and to entertain a double standard of warrant. Q3: Are such signs pointing reliably to design in our obserevation relevant to the world of C-Chemistry, aqueous medium cell based life? A3: Yes, from DNA and mRNA with the associated algorithmic codes and executing machinery on up. Cf. OP. Q4: Has it been shown per observation that blind chemical, physical, thermodynamic, or biological processes are capable of accounting for the OOL without design, and particularly for the FSCO/I found in say coded DNA? A4: Not at all, and one of the best indicators -- yes, this is another level of signs pointing to an objective state of affairs -- is how objectors constantly duck away from providing counter examples, or when they try, the counter examples they attempt prove the opposite of what they wish. This latest one seems to be trying to pretend that he focus of design inferences is not empirical evidence leading to demonstrated reliable signs that indicate design as a relevant cause. In short, a strawman caricature. Q5: But, you cannot have designs without a designer? So, isn't the attempt to pretend that you are not talking about designers -- especially supernatural ones -- a hidden agenda tactic? A5: The logical first question is, do you have a design at all, as indicated by a reliable, objective sign? Design theory is about showing on tested reliable signs, that tweredun, it is not in the primary sense or context, a whodunit exercise. Until there is evidence of deliberate setting of a fire or killing, we do not have reason to open up an arson or murder case. Whodunit is subsequent to that tweredun. As has been repeatedly pointed out to EL et al -- literally for years -- and as is simple common sense. Q6: Why, then is there a resistance to that point? A6: patently, on long observation, because of an ideological a priori -- cf Lewontin et al --and objection to the possibility that empirical evidence and inductive logic could possibly provide support for undesired candidate designers, such as God. That is the context in which Lewontin tried to cite Beck to the effect that God is a chaotic, irrational idea, that would make all nature arbitrary. Theologically of course, Gods is seen as the author of creation and the sustainer thereof, a God of order. next, the imagined source of chaos -- miracles, are also SIGNS. And, the point of a sign is that it is an index that points and to do so must stand out from its background. As we can see from text on this screen. That is, miracles MUST be rare, in order to successfully point, and MUST be against the backdrop of a highly predictable orderly pattern of nature. Also, we are supposedly under the moral government of God, but that requires a highly predictable and influence-able order of the world so we know likely and reasonable consequences. Where, God is envisioned as Reason himself, so the natural world would communicate intelligible characteristics reflecting that character, rendering it intelligible. But what is happening is that seeing an intelligible order, many have imagined that we can have order as self-explanatory without organiser. That means that anything that potentially points differently will find itself violently objected to. As is happening. Q7: but isn't this all a hidden agenda scheme to smuggle God in, inside a lab coat? A7: This is ignorant of the history of science and of the actual views of many practising scientists today. God is not "smuggled in" into science, unless one is redefining science as applied atheism, which then runs into the problem of science being confined to a question-begging materialist circle by notions such as methodological naturalism. If empirical evidence could possibly point to a cause that is beyond the realm of nature, then science cannot be both open to the truth the evidence could point to and at the same time lock out any such possibility by injecting Lewontin's a priori. IN SHORT, WE ARE HERE SEEING A DEMAND TO TAKE SCIENCE CAPTIVE TO MATERIALIST IDEOLOGY. Sorry, science as an open-minded pursuit of the truth about our world in light of evidence takes priority over such ideological power games. Q8: But, isn't design theory inherently about the designer, and can you have design without a designer? A8: Strawman again. Design theory is about the empirical investigation of our world and objects in it that may exhibit signs that point to design as cause. At simple level, there is a recognisable difference between a stone and a hand-axe. There is something about that reputed room full of evident artifacts of unknown cause in the Smithsonian that marks them out as distinct from nature. If we were to find some things on Mars or the Moon, those would tell us: designed. Surely, we can systematise such. if SETI finds a signal, that too will be different from natural phenomena. How, per observable, tested, reliable indicators, can we tell such apart? That is the direct scientific purpose of design theory. And the proper issue is that you will not be willing to entertain the possibility that there are reliable signs of design, unless you are willing to consider the POSSIBILITY of a relevant designer. So, we need again to point to the signs of a priori ideological materialism and its fellow travellers and ask the pointed question: is the root of many objections a refusal to entertain what would otherwise be a reasonable possibility, design? Q9: But you are jut blowing up the image of a human being unto the sky? A9: Nope. We do recognise from our experience and observation that designers are possible, indeed actual. We see as well cases such as beavers that indicate that such is not in fact or in principle confined to humans. Instead, we recognise that design is a functional pattern of behaviour: in accord with an intelligible goal, entities are so configured and integrated as to achieve a purpose, adapting materials, forces and circumstances as means to ends. There is no good reason to lock that down to humans, so if we wish to learn the truth about our world, it is reasonable to identify reliable signs of design and listen to them when they speak, even in strange corners like the world of the cell or the configuration of the physics of the observed cosmos. Q 10: Isn't this all a hidden Christo-fascist right wing fundy theocratic agenda, designed to undermine liberty and bring back the inquisition, the index, the rack, witch hunts etc? A10: No, such is little more than propagandistic projection. Witches were hunted and hated because it was thought that they had real power to do harm and used it. Once it was seen that such was unlikely and that the methods used were unlikely to find truth and achieve justice, they were stopped. Horrific, and an abuse of unaccountable power, backed up by the madness of crowds, but not likely to return in such a form. However in our day, the sort of false accusations made against design thinkers and the sort of blame the victim career busting tactics and outing games seen, should give pause. The rack is a torture device, again utterly unlikely to return. The index of forbidden books is not likely to return, we have enough problems with restricting outright pornography and other such gruesomely exploitive and destructive materials. the inquisition actually still exists over in Rome, as a council for investigating theology that has gone off the rails. The most it has been able to do is to say to theologian X, that you may not teach A, B, C and still say you are doing so within the Catholic fold. I suspect that would make such a theologian even more popular in some quarters. Evangelicals simple have no interest in the support or approval of the Roman Church, and secularists would probably hold up such a censure as a badge of honour. As to conspiracy theorising, such deservedly has little weight in reasonable minds. It will help to get some facts straight too, fascism -- as Mussolini's roots and the name of the National Socialist German Worker's [= NAZI] Party should tell us -- is actually a politically messianistic, statist ideology of the LEFT. It envisions an unprecedented crisis that targets some mass-based victim group and justifies the rise of some Nietzschean nihilistic, beyond morality and law superman political saviour who shall deliver utopia. Blasphemous idolatry, in a nutshell. (Cf. here. And for those fgullible enough to be taken in by the "Hitler was a Christian" smear, cf. here.) And of course the projection of imagined Christian conspiracies to take over this that and the other, sounds a little strained coming from advocates of secularist agendas and ideologies that are seeking to dominate our civilisation. If you live in a glass house . . . ======= KFkairosfocus
May 9, 2013
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Mikey Elzinga wants to know:
What do you get out of badgering Elizabeth?
We get to expose her (and the rest of the TSZ ilk) as the scientifically illiterate dolt that she is.
Why is there so much hatred towards her on the part of the UD people?
She constantly misrepresents our position and claims and she constantly oversells unguided evolution. And she never supports any of her claims with actual evidence. She is nothing but a spewer of rhetoric.Joe
May 9, 2013
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