Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

UD PRO-DARWINISM ESSAY CHALLENGE

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On Sept 23rd, I put up an essay challenge as captioned, primarily to objecting commenter Jerad.

As at October 2nd, he has definitively said: no.

Joe informs us that Zachriel has tried to brush it aside:

Try Darwin’s Origin of Species (1859). It’s a bit dated and longer than 6,000 words, (the 6th edition is 190,000 words), but Darwin considered it just a long abstract, and it still makes for a powerful argument.

This is, frankly, a “don’t bother me” brush-off; telling in itself, as a definitive, successful answer would have momentous impact on this blog.

Zachriel’s response reminds me, all too strikingly, of the cogency of  what Philip Johnson had to say in reply to Lewontin’s claims in his NYRB article in January 1997:

For scientific materialists the materialism comes first; the science comes thereafter. [[Emphasis original]We might more accurately term them “materialists employing science.” And if materialism is true, then some materialistic theory of evolution has to be true simply as a matter of logical deduction, regardless of the evidence. That theory will necessarily be at least roughly like neo-Darwinism, in that it will have to involve some combination of random changes and law-like processes capable of producing complicated organisms that (in Dawkins’ words) “give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose.”
. . . .   The debate about creation and evolution is not deadlocked . . . Biblical literalism is not the issue. The issue is whether materialism and rationality are the same thing. Darwinism is based on an a priori commitment to materialism, not on a philosophically neutral assessment of the evidence. Separate the philosophy from the science, and the proud tower collapses. [[Emphasis added.] [[The Unraveling of Scientific Materialism, First Things, 77 (Nov. 1997), pp. 22 – 25.]

There is a serious matter on the table, to be addressed in the context that there is now a significant empirically grounded challenge to the claim that blind chance forces and mechanical necessity can account for the world of life. And, that reminds us to mention that the co-founder of the theory of evolution from 1869 on argued for intelligent evolution, specifically publishing his views at length in The World of Life. Which, is still a powerful argument that that world is “a manifestation of Creative Power, Directive Mind and Ultimate Purpose.”

Hey, let’s add a vid:

[youtube hxvAVln6HLI]

For instance, here — with simplified paragraphing — is a comment in Wallace’s preface:

. . . the most prominent feature of my book is that I enter into a popular yet critical examination of those underlying fundamental problems which Darwin purposely excluded from his works as being beyond the scope of his enquiry.

Such are, the nature and causes of Life itself ; and more especially of its most fundamental and mysterious powers growth and reproduction. I first endeavour to show (in Chapter XIV.) by a care-ful consideration of the structure of the bird’s feather; of the marvellous transformations of the higher insects ; and, more especially of the highly elaborated wing-scales of the Lepidoptera (as easily accessible examples of what is going on in every part of the structure of every living thing), the absolute necessity for an organising and directive Life-Principle in order to account for the very possibility of these complex outgrowths.

I argue, that they necessarily imply first, a Creative Power, which so constituted matter as to render these marvels possible ; next, a directive Mind which is demanded at every step of what we term growth, and often look upon as so simple and natural a process as to require no explanation ; and, lastly, an ultimate Purpose, in the very existence of the whole vast life-world in all its long course of evolution throughout the eons of geological time.

This Purpose, which alone throws light on many of the mysteries of its mode of evolution, I hold to be the development of Man, the one crowning product of the whole cosmic process of  life-development ; the only being which can to some extent comprehend nature; which can perceive and trace out her modes of action ; which can appreciate the hidden forces and motions everywhere at work, and can deduce from them a supreme and over-ruling Mind as their necessary cause.

For those who accept some such view as I have indicated, I show (in Chapters XV. and XVI.) how strongly it is sup-ported and enforced by a long series of facts and co-relations which we can hardly look upon as all purely accidental coincidences. Such are the infinitely varied products of living things which serve man’s purposes and man’s alone not only by supplying his material wants, and by gratifying his higher tastes and emotions, but as rendering possible many of those advances in the arts and in science which we claim to be the highest proofs of his superiority to the brutes, as well as of his advancing civilisation.

From a consideration of these better-known facts I proceed (in Chapter XVII.) to an exposition of the mystery of cell-growth ; to a consideration of the elements in their special relation to the earth itself and to the life-world ; while in the last chapter I endeavour to show the purpose of that law of diversity which seems to pervade the whole material Universe.

In short, Darwin’s co-founder — and a man who was at least as learned on the substantial evidence as Darwin was — plainly argued at book length with copious evidence, that the evidence on the ground strongly points to design and purpose even within an evolutionary frame. Brushing the challenge off off by pointing to Darwin’s book, fails the giggle test.

So, here is the challenge, placed before the Darwinist (and similar), Blind Watchmaker Thesis objectors to design theory; especially those at TSZ:

The Smithsonian’s tree of life model, note the root in OOL

 

UD PRO-DARWINISM ESSAY CHALLENGE: Compose your summary case for darwinism (or any preferred variant that has at least some significant support in the professional literature, such as punctuated equlibria etc) in a fashion that is accessible to the non-technical reader — based on empirical evidence that warrants the inference to body plan level macroevolution — in up to say 6,000 words [a chapter in a serious paper is often about that long]. Outgoing links are welcome so long as they do not become the main point. That is, there must be a coherent essay, with

(i)an intro,
(ii) a thesis,
(iii) a structure of exposition,
(iv) presentation of empirical warrant that meets the inference to best current empirically grounded explanation [–> IBCE] test for scientific reconstructions of the remote past,
(v) a discussion and from that
(vi) a warranted conclusion.

Your primary objective should be to show in this way, per IBCE, why there is no need to infer to design from the root of the Darwinian tree of life — cf. Smithsonian discussion here —  on up (BTW, it will help to find a way to resolve the various divergent trees), on grounds that the Darwinist explanation, as extended to include OOL, is adequate to explain origin and diversification of the tree of life. A second objective of like level is to show how your thesis is further supported by such evidence as suffices to warrant the onward claim that is is credibly the true or approximately true explanation of origin and body-plan level diversification of life; on blind watchmaker style chance variation plus differential reproductive success, starting with some plausible pre-life circumstance.

It would be helpful if in that essay you would outline why alternatives such as design, are inferior on the evidence we face. [As an initial spark for thinking, contrast my own survey of origins science here on (note the onward resources page), the definition of design theory in the UD resources tab top of this and every UD page, the Weak Argument Correctives in the same tab, the general resources that pop up on clicking the tab itself, and the discussion of design theory in the NWE article here. You may also want to refer to the site of the IDEA Center, and the Discovery Institute CSC site as well as Mike Gene’s Telic Thoughts. Notice IDEA’s essay on the case for design here.] . . . .

I would put this up as an original post, with preliminary contextual remarks and an invitation to respond in the comments section.

I will not submit the post with a rebutting markup or make an immediate rebuttal. In fact, let me make the offer to hold off my own comments for at least five initial comments. I will give you two full days of comments before I post any full post level response; though others at UD will be free to respond in their own right.

And BTW, I am making this offer without consulting with the blog owner or others, I am sure they would welcome a serious response . . .  [NB: I have given how to contact me in the original Sept 23 post, I will not repeat that in a headlined original post.]

That challenge is on the table. In truth, it has always been implicitly on the table. For, as I went on to note on Sept 23:

Now, at any time, in essentially any thread at UD any serious and civil design theory objector could have submitted such an essay, breaking it up into a multi part comment if desired . . .

And, it is quite clear that if there were a cogent, empirically well-grounded blind watchmaker thesis account of the origins of the world of life, there would be no design theory movement in biology.

(There would still be a serious design argument in cosmology, but that is a different matter. That does, however, show that strictly speaking design theory has no need to make its case in the world of life; it is because of the blatant weight of the evidence that there is a design movement on phenomena in the world of life.)

So, there you have it, there is a challenge officially on the table.

Let us see if any of the many objectors to design theory at TSZ or elsewhere — I would even accept a parallel post and discussion here and at TSZ (though, no, I will not be commenting there if that is done) — will be willing to step up to the plate. END

Comments
Folks: Anyone notice the continued chirping crickets on the focal topic? KFkairosfocus
October 7, 2012
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Ditto. FYI, a "minimise what was done then try to twist it about" does not reach a reasonable threshold. If you go into someone's living room and slander him thoughtlessly, then on refusing to take back are asked to leave then keep coming back and doubling down, what is that saying; it is not intrinsically different online. FYI, as linked on already there is a longstanding and harmful willful, spiteful well-poisoning slander of design theory per Forrest et al. If you want to discuss design issues on the merits, you do not propagate or allude to it as though it has [no] merit. KFcritical rationalist
October 7, 2012
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Kantian Naturalist,
That’s quite right — and the exact same point holds for “the genetic code”. We make sense of it in terms of “information,” the only difference between that we make sense of genes in terms of protein sequences and we make sense of tree-rings in terms of seasonal variations. If the the organization of tree-rings is ‘informative’ in only an anthropocentric, projective sense, then so too is the organization of nucleotides
Without even the slightest hint of equivocation, this is simply and plainly untrue. It is not defensible from an evidentiary standpoint. To result in the effect “Hey this tree has lived 10 years” requires the protocol in my visual cortex (and cognitive faculties). To result in the effect of adding leucine to a growing polypeptide requires only the protocol imbedded in the genetic translation system. It requires nothing of me.Upright BiPed
October 7, 2012
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Jerad, I notice neither your first nor your second comment to me challenges the fact that Darwinian evolution cannot be the source of the very thing it requires in order to exist and operate. I assume from this it will remain unchallenged.
But if you and I look at the same artefact, like DNA, and you conclude design (and therefore a designer) and I conclude no design then isn’t it fair to consider the matter undecided and therefore no designer or design has been established?
You are absolutely free to consider all the evidence and conclude non-design. Do you extend to me the same latitude in the face of evidence you cannot resolve? For instance, if you are a student of biology, should you be free to conclude design without having your University faculty pole students and track how many they were able to "convert" over the course of a semester? Or if you are on the faculty, should you be allowed to conclude design without having the remaining faculty post a special page on the University's website for the express purpose of railing against you? Or if you are among a technical staff who produces course materials on origins, should you be allowed to produce (however modestly) course materials that mentions these issues and their possible implications? Or should these issues simply be ignored, and the possibility of design unambiguously promoted as resolved? And what if you are neither a student of biology, nor a professor or coursework provider; but simply a citizen of a modern culture. Should pseudo-governmental associations leap over your conclusion (that the question of design is open) and seek public policy and court judgments to the contrary? Just exactly how far are you willing to offer me the freedom which you will, in turn, expect from me - and are you prepared to actually stand for your convictions if you find they are being trampled upon?
Are you saying that unobserved information is not information? Like an unobserved falling tree in the forest makes no sound?
A tree falling in the woods creates sound as a matter of physical law, requiring nothing of an observer.
Does DNA have information before it’s observed or acted upon? Is it arranged?
I am not certain this is a coherent question. Does an information carrying medium carry information if it is not arranged to carry information?
If I write a phrase on a piece of paper, show it to a friend (so the information is perceived) and then leave it in a cave where it sits for 200 years not being observed does it lose its information?
It retains its representation(s) over the time it is unread, but no information is transferred from those representations (i.e. think Rosetta stone). These are not difficult concepts to understand.Upright BiPed
October 7, 2012
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Kantian Naturalist:
That’s quite right — and the exact same point holds for “the genetic code”. We make sense of it in terms of “information,” the only difference between that we make sense of genes in terms of protein sequences and we make sense of tree-rings in terms of seasonal variations. If the the organization of tree-rings is ‘informative’ in only an anthropocentric, projective sense, then so too is the organization of nucleotides.
You don't see any fundamental difference between tree rings and ordered sequences of nucleotides that a read off a strand of DNA?Mung
October 7, 2012
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Jerad:
Tree rings can also indicate dry and wet years and other ‘information’ about the climate at the time the ring was made.
Well, you do seem to be coming on board with the idea that information, to be information, must be information about something. Now, to whom, or to what, do tree rings communicate information about climate?
Are you saying that unobserved information is not information?
That's what you are saying, if you'd just stop long enough to think about it. :)
Does DNA have information before it’s observed or acted upon? Is it arranged?
Think about why DNA is different from tree rings.
If I write a phrase on a piece of paper, show it to a friend (so the information is perceived) and then leave it in a cave where it sits for 200 years not being observed does it lose its information?
It never had any in the first place. Assume you wrote in Fnglish. 40,000 years from now some alien with no knowledge of English comes across the (miraculously preserved) paper. Does the alien, having observed the paper, obtain the same information as your friend? If not, what happened to the information?Mung
October 7, 2012
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Kantian Naturalist:
As for myself, I think that the question as Fuller frames it — are we junior creators or are we senior creatures? — is really the heart of the entire issue, and we should just talk about that.
I say we're both!Mung
October 7, 2012
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KN: One wonders how the Thomists can put up with it at all. Indeed!Mung
October 7, 2012
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Ditto. KFcritical rationalist
October 7, 2012
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Snip, for cause. KFcritical rationalist
October 7, 2012
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Of course, we are natural symbol-making, information-genrating entities, and it is completely normal for us to think that things “contain information”. But for a human to view a tree trunk and say that it has grown for 10 seasons, he must acknowledge that he has put himself into the system and it is he that has become informed. Without him, that information would not exist, even though the state of the tree trunk remains.
That's quite right -- and the exact same point holds for "the genetic code". We make sense of it in terms of "information," the only difference between that we make sense of genes in terms of protein sequences and we make sense of tree-rings in terms of seasonal variations. If the the organization of tree-rings is 'informative' in only an anthropocentric, projective sense, then so too is the organization of nucleotides.Kantian Naturalist
October 7, 2012
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UBP (46)
This position only really makes sense for the person who happens to know that no designer exists, otherwise it assumes its implied conclusion. It also attempts to offer parity to evidence we don’t have in lieu of evidence we do have. I do not have to know whether or not a designer exist in order to know that Darwinian evolution requires recorded information to exist and operate. And finally, this position ignores the fact that we believe in many things we cannot see. We believe in them because we see their effects. To say that the recorded information (which makes life possible) is not such an artifact is, once again, simply an assumed conclusion.
But if you and I look at the same artefact, like DNA, and you conclude design (and therefore a designer) and I conclude no design then isn't it fair to consider the matter undecided and therefore no designer or design has been established?
The rings of a tree trunk are nothing more than the state of a tree trunk after having grown for a number of seasons. Those rings (spcifically their number) only becomes information if a capable mechanism brings that information into existence (of which transcription by our visual system is one such capable mechanism). Also, if the arrangement of a thing is “recorded information” merely by virtue of its existence, then everything is recorded information, and we’ll need a new word for those things which are actually arranged to record information. We will have taken a very unique physical phenomenon in the cosmos (information about something recorded in a material medium), and by virtue of our seemingly endless ability to create information from all things, we will have forced that phenomenon onto all things. Its an anthropocentric fallacy, and is completely unecessary. Of course, we are natural symbol-making, information-genrating entities, and it is completely normal for us to think that things “contain information”. But for a human to view a tree trunk and say that it has grown for 10 seasons, he must acknowledge that he has put himself into the system and it is he that has become informed. Without him, that information would not exist, even though the state of the tree trunk remains.
Tree rings can also indicate dry and wet years and other 'information' about the climate at the time the ring was made. Are you saying that unobserved information is not information? Like an unobserved falling tree in the forest makes no sound? Does DNA have information before it's observed or acted upon? Is it arranged? If I write a phrase on a piece of paper, show it to a friend (so the information is perceived) and then leave it in a cave where it sits for 200 years not being observed does it lose its information?Jerad
October 7, 2012
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KN: I see your:
I think the challenge is somewhat unfair to Darwinists. The challenge, as I understand it, is to provide “an adequately empirically warranted account on blind watchmaker thesis chance and necessity mechanisms that accounts for OOL and OO body plans etc.” The reason I say this is unfair is because I just don’t think that any Darwinist, even the most extreme hyper-adaptationists, would say that they regard chance and necessity as necessary and sufficient for explaining abiogenesis and morphogenesis. In other words, I really don’t think that they believe what you believe they believe. What they believe, I believe, is that (i) heritable variation and directional selection are causally responsible for most kinds of microevolution (e.g. adaptation); (ii) that they are also responsible for speciation; (iii) and there is nothing other than speciation to account for. I think that (iii) is the real kicker, the real obstacle to a productive conversation between Darwinists and anti-Darwinists.
Au contraire, we ALL know that in schools it is routinely taught -- on pain of administrative action against teachers and legal action against school boards that dare to suggest otherwise -- that we had origin of life by spontaneous chemical and physical forces in some warm pond or similar venue, leading to a gradual process of branching-tree evolutionary development from a common ancestor to the various body plans in the fossil record and today, including us. This is taught in the name of Big-S Science. Those who dare to question or challenge, are dismissed as carrying forward a "war against Science," often in alleged service to some suggested right wing fundamentalist theocratic tyrannical conspiracy. Let me cite the US National Science Teachers Association Board in an official statement:
The principal product of science is knowledge in the form of naturalistic concepts and the laws and theories related to those concepts . . . . [[S]cience, along with its methods, explanations and generalizations, must be the sole focus of instruction in science classes to the exclusion of all non-scientific or pseudoscientific methods, explanations, generalizations and products . . . . Although no single universal step-by-step scientific method captures the complexity of doing science, a number of shared values and perspectives characterize a scientific approach to understanding nature. Among these are a demand for naturalistic explanations supported by empirical evidence that are, at least in principle, testable against the natural world. [--> as in by chance and necessity, as Monod wrote in his well known 1970 book of that title] Other shared elements include observations, rational argument, inference, skepticism, peer review and replicability of work . . . . Science, by definition, is limited to naturalistic methods and explanations and, as such, is precluded from using supernatural elements in the production of scientific knowledge. [[NSTA, Board of Directors, July 2000.]
The US National Academy of Science is subtler but makes the same basic point:
In science, explanations must be based on naturally occurring phenomena. Natural causes are, in principle, reproducible and therefore can be checked independently by others. If explanations are based on purported forces that are outside of nature, scientists have no way of either confirming or disproving those explanations. Any scientific explanation has to be testable — there must be possible observational consequences that could support the idea but also ones that could refute it. Unless a proposed explanation is framed in a way that some observational evidence could potentially count against it, that explanation cannot be subjected to scientific testing. [[Science, Evolution and Creationism, 2008, p. 10]
Indeed, we know that in a recent case, where a radical new attempted redefinition of science that turns it into applied materialist ideology, was being challenged, these two august bodies jointly threatened that students who were taught a traditional, historically and philosophically well warranted understanding of what science is, does and achieves, with the inescapable limitations [tracing to the limits of inductive -- and yes that is a proper and valid term, whoever may want to pretend otherwise -- reasoning and knowledge], would be branded with a scarlet C by this new magisterium and held hostage against admission to good Colleges and jobs etc. As to the claim that Darwinists don't really believe what has been summarised, let us clip from comment 18 above [safely buried and apt to be forgotten under dozens of subsequent comments for the moment . . . ], where Wiki is standing in for the empty chair:
Evolution is the change in the inherited characteristics of biological populations over successive generations. Evolutionary processes give rise to diversity at every level of biological organisation, including species, individual organisms and molecules such as DNA and proteins.[1] Life on Earth originated and then evolved from a universal common ancestor approximately 3.7 billion years ago. Repeated speciation and the divergence of life can be inferred from shared sets of biochemical and morphological traits, or by shared DNA sequences. These homologous traits and sequences are more similar among species that share a more recent common ancestor, and can be used to reconstruct evolutionary histories, using both existing species and the fossil record. Existing patterns of biodiversity have been shaped both by speciation and by extinction. . . . . All organisms on Earth are descended from a common ancestor or ancestral gene pool. [173][245] Current species are a stage in the process of evolution, with their diversity the product of a long series of speciation and extinction events[246] . . . organisms can be classified using these [homologous] similarities into a hierarchy of nested groups – similar to a family tree.
Nor is this anything new, as I cite in the IOSE unit on Body Plan origin, here is how Darwin closed late editions of Origin:
It is interesting to contemplate a tangled bank, clothed with many plants of many kinds, with birds singing on the bushes, with various insects flitting about, and with worms crawling through the damp earth, and to reflect that these elaborately constructed forms, so different from each other, and dependent upon each other in so complex a manner, have all been produced by laws acting around us. These laws, taken in the largest sense, being Growth with Reproduction; Inheritance which is almost implied by reproduction; Variability from the indirect and direct action of the conditions of life and from use and disuse: a Ratio of Increase so high as to lead to a Struggle for Life, and as a consequence to Natural Selection, entailing Divergence of Character and the Extinction of less-improved forms. Thus, from the war of nature, from famine and death, the most exalted object which we are capable of conceiving, namely, the production of the higher animals, directly follows. There is grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed by the Creator into a few forms or into one; and that, whilst this planet has gone cycling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being evolved. [[Origin, Ch 15. Emphasis added.]
He was of course clever enough to rule a datum line across origin of life (hence the rhetorical weasel words on a Creator) -- a case where his appeal to natural selection would run into the problem that this is not there as a possibility before reproduction arises, and only put his thoughts on that down in a letter, full well knowing that this would soon enough be ferreted out in the typical Victorian "Life and Letters of . . . . " that was bound to be written for him sooner rather than later. The very fact that the ONLY diagram in Origin as first published was the expanding tree of life, serves to highlight that a tree has a root, and that the idea was that origin of species was intended to point to origin thereafter of major body plans by cumulative descent with unlimited modification to span the world of life. So, the question, where is the root, is a relevant and reasonable one. It is also the case that most plainly shows the basic gap in the whole, want of a mechanism that adequately explains the origin of FSCO/I on a basis that has good and reliable empirical warrant. So, the silence is indeed speaking loudly. Louder and louder in fact. The challenge is still on the table, for good reason. KFkairosfocus
October 7, 2012
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as to per CR:
What “empirically grounded” evidence do you have for the claim that “God’s knowledge, which is eternal, cannot also have be created.”?
Quantum teleportation! That a photon would actually be destroyed upon the teleportation (separation) of its 'infinite' information to another photon is a direct controlled violation of the first law of thermodynamics. (i.e. a photon 'disappeared' from the 'material' universe when the entire information content of a photon was 'transcendently displaced' from the material universe by the experiment, when photon “c” transcendently became transmitted photon “a”). Thus, Quantum teleportation is direct empirical validation for the primary tenet of the Law of Conservation of Information (i.e. 'transcendent' information cannot be created or destroyed). This conclusion is warranted because information exercises direct dominion of energy, telling energy exactly what to be and do in the experiment. Thus, this experiment provides a direct line of logic that transcendent information cannot be created or destroyed and, in information demonstrating transcendence, and dominion, of space-time and matter-energy, becomes the only known entity that can satisfactorily explain where all energy came from as far as the origination of the universe is concerned. That is transcendent information is the only known entity which can explain where all the energy came from in the Big Bang without leaving the bounds of empirical science as the postulated multiverse does. Clearly anything that exercises dominion of the fundamental entity of this physical universe, a photon of energy, as transcendent information does in teleportation, must of necessity possess the same, as well as greater, qualities as energy does possess in the first law of thermodynamics (i.e. Energy cannot be created or destroyed by any known material means according to the first law). To reiterate, since information exercises dominion of energy in quantum teleportation then all information that can exist, for all past, present and future events of energy, already must exist. notes:
Quantum Teleportation - IBM Research Page Excerpt: "it would destroy the original (photon) in the process,," http://researcher.ibm.com/view_project.php?id=2862 Quantum no-hiding theorem experimentally confirmed for first time Excerpt: In the classical world, information can be copied and deleted at will. In the quantum world, however, the conservation of quantum information means that information cannot be created nor destroyed. This concept stems from two fundamental theorems of quantum mechanics: the no-cloning theorem and the no-deleting theorem. A third and related theorem, called the no-hiding theorem, addresses information loss in the quantum world. According to the no-hiding theorem, if information is missing from one system (which may happen when the system interacts with the environment), then the information is simply residing somewhere else in the Universe; in other words, the missing information cannot be hidden in the correlations between a system and its environment. http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-03-quantum-no-hiding-theorem-experimentally.html
bornagain77
October 7, 2012
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Has anyone saved CR's posts? If so please post the link here. Thx, Tobi.JWTruthInLove
October 7, 2012
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F/N: Day four, and the crickets are still chirping. Of course, the usual pattern of attack attack attack continues. KF PS: KN, we know that UD is closely, even obsessively monitored and harshly [often, utterly unfairly] critiqued by several objector sites. TSZ is just one of these, and is full of some very familiar names. We can be assured that the objectors know the offer is on the table but are refusing to take it up; knowing that if they had something devastating that actually cogently outlined a clear warrant for their blind watchmaker OOL and OO body plan as well as OO man, mind etc claims, it would have devastating impact. The highly obvious fact of studiously sustained silence, especially in the teeth of the glaring fallacies in the summaries from Wikipedia standing in for the empty chair, speaks volumes.kairosfocus
October 7, 2012
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Jerad,
Is that not a pitfall of the design hypothesis? Until you’ve proven a designer exists that is. Otherwise aren’t you begging the question?
This position only really makes sense for the person who happens to know that no designer exists, otherwise it assumes its implied conclusion. It also attempts to offer parity to evidence we don't have in lieu of evidence we do have. I do not have to know whether or not a designer exist in order to know that Darwinian evolution requires recorded information to exist and operate. And finally, this position ignores the fact that we believe in many things we cannot see. We believe in them because we see their effects. To say that the recorded information (which makes life possible) is not such an artifact is, once again, simply an assumed conclusion.
Also, would you consider tree rings recorded information? Or air bubbles trapped in ancient layers of ice? Or datable sedimentary layers of rocks with fossils?
The rings of a tree trunk are nothing more than the state of a tree trunk after having grown for a number of seasons. Those rings (spcifically their number) only becomes information if a capable mechanism brings that information into existence (of which transcription by our visual system is one such capable mechanism). Also, if the arrangement of a thing is “recorded information” merely by virtue of its existence, then everything is recorded information, and we'll need a new word for those things which are actually arranged to record information. We will have taken a very unique physical phenomenon in the cosmos (information about something recorded in a material medium), and by virtue of our seemingly endless ability to create information from all things, we will have forced that phenomenon onto all things. Its an anthropocentric fallacy, and is completely unecessary. Of course, we are natural symbol-making, information-genrating entities, and it is completely normal for us to think that things “contain information”. But for a human to view a tree trunk and say that it has grown for 10 seasons, he must acknowledge that he has put himself into the system and it is he that has become informed. Without him, that information would not exist, even though the state of the tree trunk remains.Upright BiPed
October 7, 2012
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Kantian, I think you may appreciate this article I ran across yesterday:
How Order Arises from the Random Motion of Particles in the Cosmos - ScienceDaily (Oct. 4, 2012) Excerpt: One of the unsolved mysteries of contemporary science is how highly organized structures can emerge from the random motion of particles. This applies to many situations ranging from astrophysical objects that extend over millions of light years to the birth of life on Earth. The surprising discovery of self-organized electromagnetic fields in counter-streaming ionized gases (also known as plasmas) will give scientists a new way to explore how order emerges from chaos in the cosmos. This breakthrough finding was published online in the journal, Nature Physics on Sept. 30. "We've created a model for exploring how electromagnetic fields help organize ionized gas or plasma in astrophysical settings, such as in the plasma flows that emerge from young stars," said lead author Nathan Kugland, a postdoctoral researcher in the High Energy Density Science Group at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory (LLNL). "These fields help shape the flows, and likely play a supporting role alongside gravity in the formation of solar systems, which can eventually lead to the creation of planets like the Earth." http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/10/121005092939.htm
Can you spot their unwarranted philosophical assumption Kantian?bornagain77
October 7, 2012
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UBP (42):
To say otherwise is to propose that a thing which does not exist can cause something to happen, and can be an explanation of it happening.
Is that not a pitfall of the design hypothesis? Until you've proven a designer exists that is. Otherwise aren't you begging the question? Also, would you consider tree rings recorded information? Or air bubbles trapped in ancient layers of ice? Or datable sedimentary layers of rocks with fossils?Jerad
October 6, 2012
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Maybe there's a more precise way of putting some of these issues: (1) teleology: should we be realists or anti-realists about teleology? (2) agency: does teleology require an agent, or can teleology come about without agency? I can happily accept that (Epicurean) materialism entails anti-realism about teleology, and since I am a realist about teleology, I'm not an (Epicurean) materialist. It is a further issue as to whether Darwinism entails Epicurean materialist. Now, here we have to be very careful. It's quite true that many passionate defenders of Darwinism have been Epicurean materialists, some reluctantly and others as if they were bringing tidings of joy. (I presume that it is the anti-clericalism which makes Epicurean materialism as attractive now as it was in ancient Greece.) But guilt by association is not logical entailment, and as a quasi-philosopher, it's the latter which interests me. Which is to say: would be irrational for someone to affirm Darwinism and reject materialism? I do not see any reason why it would be. Hence, Darwinism does not entail materialism -- which is completely different from whether someone who was already committed to materialism might find Darwinism attractive. I said above that I might an "anti-Darwinist" on a suitable interpretation. Here's why: if Darwinism entails anti-realism about teleology, then I'm against it. If it doesn't, I don't care so much. Now, on the second question, about agency: clearly, there are some teleological systems that are the result of agency. We call those "artifacts". But clearly it doesn't follow that just because some teleological systems are artifacts, they all must be. What would be needed here is an argument that the feature which artifacts and organisms have in common -- namely, their teleological structure -- is best explained in terms of what we know about artifacts -- namely, they are (typically) the result of some intelligent agent. From where I sit, the differences between artifacts and organisms are so great that the comparison just can't work. It boils down to some version of, "artifacts and organisms are exactly the same, except for all the differences". Matters are made somewhat worse by the belief that empirical knowledge alone cannot identify the nature of the intelligent being responsible for organismal teleology. If were to begin with the assumption that the designer is God (perhaps made on a priori grounds?), then at least we could frame the issue in the terms that Steve Fuller uses: is biology just divine technology? And, as he nicely puts it, the real issue is about how we regard ourselves: as "junior creators" or "senior creatures"? As for myself, I think that the question as Fuller frames it -- are we junior creators or are we senior creatures? -- is really the heart of the entire issue, and we should just talk about that.Kantian Naturalist
October 6, 2012
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Hello Kantian Naturalist, just a couple of quick comments...
The reason I say this is unfair is because I just don’t think that any Darwinist, even the most extreme hyper-adaptationists, would say that they regard chance and necessity as necessary and sufficient for explaining abiogenesis and morphogenesis>
The issue is guided versus unguided. And their answer to your question resides in the reaction given to any consideration of the former.
What they believe, I believe, is that (i) heritable variation and directional selection are causally responsible for most kinds of microevolution (e.g. adaptation); (ii) that they are also responsible for speciation; (iii) and there is nothing other than speciation to account for.
Darwinian evolution exists as a result of recorded information. As a consequence, it is entirely dependent on the material requirements of recorded information. Darwinism cannot be the source of those material requirements, and hence, it cannot be an explanation for them. To say otherwise is to propose that a thing which does not exist can cause something to happen, and can be an explanation of it happening. So there is definitely something else to account for - there are many.Upright BiPed
October 6, 2012
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Kantian Naturalist & Critical Rationalist. You 'guys' are good. Taxonomy is a creation of humans' need to categorise things after the fact. It's a family tree just like any other. There are no lines of demarcation really. 'Species' is a fuzzy category; you can't look at the history of lifeforms and point to one parent-offspring coupling and say: here a new species formed. It's all a giant continuum. From my perspective, it is completely futile to participate in KF's challenge if 150 years of research and publications have not convinced some members of this forum. What could I possibly say that had not already been brought up and discussed before? I'm not saying there is an inherent bias against the very idea of information and knowledge being created but it's very tiring just to be continually told 'you have NO evidence' and 'your view is illogical and unproveable'. There's no reason to bother with a 6000 word essay in the face of such nay-saying. Why create a new target which will not further a dialogue or convince anyone?Jerad
October 6, 2012
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Correction: The idea that God's eternal knowledge could be created is self evidently absurd.StephenB
October 6, 2012
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Specifically, If you believe “God’s knowledge, which is eternal, cannot also have be created.” then the idea that there could possibility be an explanation for how this knowledge was created would seem absurd. You would consider any proposed explanation impossible from the start.
You are not thinking very clearly. The idea that God's eternal ridiculous.knowledge could be created is self-evidently absurd. Neither a Darwinian model nor an ID model could explain such a self contradictory idea. There is no reason to consider it in any context.
On the other hand, I think Darwinism is a better explanation because it explains how this knowledge was created and ID does not.
Again, you are not thinking clearly. Darwinistic processes cannot, in any way, explain God's knowledge, which would, by definition, precede Darwinistic processes. That which precedes the process cannot also be caused by the process.
What “empirically grounded” evidence do you have for the claim that “God’s knowledge, which is eternal, cannot also have be created.”?
I don't need empirically grounded evidence to say that God's eternal knowledge cannot have been created. The only requirement in this case is to be capable of rational thought. That which always existed (eternal knowledge) cannot also have begun to exist (created knowledge).StephenB
October 6, 2012
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Similarly, removed for cause. If CR wishes to participate in these threads, he knows what he needs to do, which is reasonable. KFcritical rationalist
October 6, 2012
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I can think of several reasons why the "challenge" has gone unanswered. I mean, did you issue a call for papers? Did you advertise on other blogs? Did you just assume that all the best and the brightest of Darwinists would stumble across Uncommon Descent? On a more general point, I think the challenge is somewhat unfair to Darwinists. The challenge, as I understand it, is to provide "an adequately empirically warranted account on blind watchmaker thesis chance and necessity mechanisms that accounts for OOL and OO body plans etc." The reason I say this is unfair is because I just don't think that any Darwinist, even the most extreme hyper-adaptationists, would say that they regard chance and necessity as necessary and sufficient for explaining abiogenesis and morphogenesis. In other words, I really don't think that they believe what you believe they believe. What they believe, I believe, is that (i) heritable variation and directional selection are causally responsible for most kinds of microevolution (e.g. adaptation); (ii) that they are also responsible for speciation; (iii) and there is nothing other than speciation to account for. I think that (iii) is the real kicker, the real obstacle to a productive conversation between Darwinists and anti-Darwinists. (You can put me down as "both" or "neither," on suitable interpretations.) The key insight of Darwinism -- and here I think both Ernst Mayer and Michael Ghiselin are very good on the point -- is its anti-essentialism about species. A species, according to Darwinism, is nothing more than a population. It's not a kind, form, essence, whatever. It's just a collection of interbreeding individual organisms. (Which is why applying the concept of species to bacteria is problematic, but OK.) And, there's nothing other than species. All of the rest of the taxa -- genus, family, order, class, etc. -- none of that is real. Darwinism is committed to anti-realism or conventionalism about everything above the species-level, and to anti-essentialism at the species level. The whole account is driven by a pretty rigorous and demanding nominalism. (One wonders how the Thomists can put up with it at all.) In other words, once you concede that variation and selection can result in speciation, the Darwinist thinks that there's nothing else to be conceded -- it's all been given away. So, I think that if you really want a viable philosophical or empirical objection to Darwinism, it's going to have to be at that level: of showing that Bauplaene ("body-plans") are real, or showing that there's some biological reality represented by taxonomic categories above the species level. A quite separate point is whether "materialism" is philosophically plausible. There are no shortages of good (even, I happen to think, devastating) objections to materialism, but they don't affect Darwinism one way or the other. All they show is that Darwinists should not be materialists, because no one should be. One would need a separate argument to show that Darwinism entails materialism. For all I know, the right philosophical conclusion could be that if one is a Darwinist at all, then one had better be a theistic evolutionist.Kantian Naturalist
October 6, 2012
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If the answer to both of these questions was “No.”, and God himself was not created but has always existed, this knowledge was not created either. As such, any theory that suggests this knowledge was genuinely was created, such as Darwinism, would be in direct conflict with it,
If, by "this knowledge," you mean the knowledge necessary to create biodiversity, and if by "it," you mean the truth expressed in John 1:1, then you have stumbled onto a truth, however loosely connected it might be to the subject matter under discussion.
IOW, when we look at them both in a critical light, it’s unclear how you can hold these two contradictory beliefs concurrently.
I don't hold those two contrary beliefs, concurrently, alternately, or any other way. God's knowledge, which is eternal, cannot also have be created. Either way, I think that the point of this exercise has been made clear. So far, no Darwinist has stepped forward to provide a rational defense for the neo-Darwinistic paradigm. Arguments have been replaced with irrelevant distractions, nothing more. This is typical.StephenB
October 6, 2012
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SB: Give me one good reason to believe that unguided, naturalistic forces can, or ever did, create a new body plan. CR:
That’s an impossible challenge, as it conflicts with John 1:1, which you believe to be true.
There is no relationship whatsoever between your inability or unwillingness to make a case for Darwinism and my theological orientation. I can readily understand why KF is deleting your comments.StephenB
October 6, 2012
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Similarly removed for cause. KFcritical rationalist
October 6, 2012
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Removed for cause of willful insistence on slander and refusal to reconcile the matter as a reasonable condition of further participation in UD threads posed by the undersigned. KFcritical rationalist
October 6, 2012
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