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L&FP44: What are Self-evident truths [SET’s] and why do they matter?

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A classic case in point of self-evident truth can be seen by splitting our fingers into a two and a three then joining them again — and, sorry, this needs to be hammered home hard as we are cutting across the grain of current education and cultural conditioning.

So, pardon demonstration by undeniable example and re-use of an illustration:

As a bonus, we see another SET that is like unto the first, self-evident, but is subtler. That error exists is not only a massive empirical fact but an undeniable truth. The attempted denial actually supports the Josiah Royce proposition.

By way of Epictetus (c. 180 AD), we can see a third case, SET’s that are first principles of reasoning antecedent to proof and which therefore inescapably pervade our reasoning, including proofs and [attempted] dis-proofs:

DISCOURSES CHAPTER XXV: How is logic necessary?

When someone in [Epictetus’] audience said, Convince me that logic is necessary, he answered: Do you wish me to demonstrate this to you?—Yes.—Well, then, must I use a demonstrative argument?—And when the questioner had agreed to that, Epictetus asked him. How, then, will you know if I impose upon you?—As the man had no answer to give, Epictetus said: Do you see how you yourself admit that all this instruction is necessary, if, without it, you cannot so much as know whether it is necessary or not? [Notice, inescapable, thus self evidently true and antecedent to the inferential reasoning that provides deductive proofs and frameworks, including axiomatic systems and propositional calculus etc. Cf J. C. Wright]

These examples and others that could be brought forward show that SET’s are true, and for one with adequate experience, background and insight to understand, will be seen as necessarily true once understood. That is, the attempted denial is in some way immediately, manifestly absurd so that the certainty of the SET is assured.

Thus, SET’s are objective, warranted to full certainty.

Which makes them suspect to those enamoured with today’s all too common relativism, subjectivism and emotivism. Clearly though if SET’s have been demonstrated — as we saw — then the claim or suggestion that truth is a perception or agreement or feeling regarding an opinion only . . . true to me or to us, that’s all . . . manifestly fails.

Starting with, 2 + 3 = 5 and with, error undeniably exists or that we are undeniably self-aware (conscious) and able to reason responsibly. Illustrating, by contrast with a rock (even one formed into computer hardware!):

However, as the Angelic Doctor long ago noted, having adequate background and inclination to understand and acknowledge the force of a SET can be an issue. Indeed, the case with Epictetus’ interlocutor shows that one may have to be educated to be able to understand a SET. (Recall, we have to be taught basic addition and multiplication facts.)

Epictetus also shows that one might have to be corrected regarding a SET. The silence in response suggests, too, that such correction may not be welcome.

For sure, self-evidence does not mean utterly simple and obvious to one and all.

We may now expand:

SELF-EVIDENT TRUTHS — CHARACTERISTICS:

1] A SET is just that, true, it accurately describes actual states of affairs, e.g. split your fingers on one hand into a 2-cluster and a 3-cluster, then join, you necessarily have a 5-cluster, || + ||| –> ||||| accurately describes a state of affairs.

2] Further, a SET is understandable to anyone of appropriate experience and maturity to have formed the basic concepts and to therefore recognise the sentences expressing it.

3] A SET, is then recognisable as not only true but necessarily and manifestly true given its substance, though of course some may try to evade it or deflect it.

4] That necessity is backed up by a certainty mechanism, specifically that the attempted denial immediately manifests a patent absurdity, not by step by step reduction such as incomensurateness of the side and diagonal of a square, but blatant absurdity manifest on inspection.

5] Where such patent absurdities of denial may come in various forms, e.g.:

– Absurd incoherence or blatant error [ 2 + 3 = 4 X],
– undeniability [E= error exists, ~E is a claim it is error to assert E, so E is undeniable],
– inescapability [Epictetus’ interlocutor who tried to demand a logical proof of the necessity of logic . . . and — yes — the inescapability of appeals to the authority of Ciceronian first duties of reason, even in the face of an ongoing campaign to dismiss and sideline . . . to truth, to right reason, to prudence (including, warrant), to sound conscience, to neighbour, so too to fairness and justice etc . . . where, moral truths are truths regarding states of affairs involving oughtness, i.e. duty — we ought to respect the life, body, freedom and dignity of a young child walking home from school, never mind convenient bushes and dark impulses in our hearts],
– blatant self-referential absurdity [e.g. trying to deny one’s self-aware consciousness and the associated testimony of conscience or crushing of conscience],
– moral absurdity [trying to evade the message of the sadly real world case of a kidnapped, sexually tortured, murdered child]
– etc, there is no end to the rhetoric of evasion.

6] So, SET’s are not private subjective, GIGO-limited, readily dismissible opinions or dubious notions. They are objective and in fact warranted to certainty backed up by patent absurdity on attempted denial. More than objective, they are certainly true, and especially as regards first principles and first duties of right reason, they are inescapably authoritative and antecedent to reasoned thought or argument.

7] Indeed, self-evident first truths and duties of reason are before proof and beyond refutation. The attempt to object or evade, inescapably, implicitly appeals to their authority in attempting to get rhetorical traction, and attempts to prove equally cannot escape their priority, the first truths and duties are part of the fabric of the attempted proof. So, we are duty bound to acknowledge them, to be coherently rational.

Of course, we are always free to choose to be irrational and/or irresponsible. And others are equally free to note the fact and duly reckon the loss of credibility. Where, cheap shot turnabout projections only confirm the loss of credibility.

As a final point, SET’s are relatively rare, so rare in fact that they cannot by themselves frame a worldview or school of thought. So, what we use them as is plumb lines that test our thinking, especially when we are tempted to make a crooked yardstick into our imposed standard for what political correctness, newspeak word magic, agit prop and lawfare call truth, right, rights, tolerance, conspiracy theories, follow the science, X-phobias, facts, knowledge etc. So, pardon another oldie but goodie:

Self-evident truths are important and precious. Let us therefore prize and use them aptly. END

Comments
WJM, ontological cart before going concern world, epistemological horse. We reveal the first principles in our behaviour, even in your further you got me wrong argument, an appeal to duties to truth, right reason and warrant. Noting those inescapably authoritative first principles from observable consistent patterns of behaviour it is reasonable to ask, what sort of world best explains that. But the pattern revealing pervasive first principles comes first. KFkairosfocus
June 11, 2021
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KF said:
To the root of reality? Yes, as fulfillment of our proper potential for good is an obvious end for our rational, responsible, freely acting, conscience-guided nature.
From my #48:
A duty does not, cannot “reveal itself,” for a very simple reason. The concept of a duty requires (1) an authority that holds one responsible for fulfilling one’s duties, and (2) consequences for both fulfilling and not fulfilling said duty. Absent those conditions, it cannot be said that a duty exists. A duty is revealed or made known by the presence of those conditions, QED.
Without God (root of reality) as the agent that holds us accountable, and inescapable outcomes, no existential, inescapable duty can be said to exist. These are ontological conditions. Thus, the idea of such duties are necessarily the product of a particular ontology that contains the necessary conditions for any such duty to exist, much less be revealed or understood as such a duty.William J Murray
June 11, 2021
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I have time for a very quick comment. KM writes:
You know very well that without the demands of an authoritarian power, “God”, let’s say, there’s no basis for for “demands” or “duties”, except for relative ethical “duties” that one might commit to, such as lawyers and doctors.
You are in the right ballpark. More accurately, without an objective basis for duties, there is only a subjective basis. This is certainly true and I wonder why you think I would be reluctant to admit that. It is practically a synthetic statement. The issue is and always has been, does an objective basis exist. As KF and SB and others have argued there are many good reasons for believing so. Can any of these reasons be established in an apodictic sense? No, and neither can their negations. We all start with first plausibles, not first certainties, as KF as explained.Barry Arrington
June 11, 2021
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SB said:
The problem is that you often try to deny the plain meaning of words when you think it will help your case.
Nope. I don't deny the plain meaning of any words. I apprise people when the implications of the meaning of some words are different under the IRT paradigm than they are under the usual DRT paradigm, such as "objective." Objective still means objective (existing regardless of any individual's perspective,) but it doesn't imply the same thing - an external of mind concrete physical-material world. It is objectively available information, which different individuals can subjectively experience.
What you said to Kairosfocus means exactly this: “You have a duty to explain yourself.”
I'm sure that's what my words mean to you, because you are interpreting what I say from basically the same paradigm as KF. That's obviously not what they meant to me when I said "You don't get to ...." because I've explicitly stated what I meant when I said those words. I have explicitly stated what I believe duty to mean, and have argued what conditions are logically necessary for a duty to be revealed as such. I have explicitly explained my meaning when I used the words "you don't get to." For you to claim I didn't mean what I have explicitly stated and defined what I mean, and did not mean, is just an irrational attempt at mind-reading or perhaps caused by an inability or unwillingness to think outside of your paradigm. I guess it's easier to win arguments when you get to tell other people what they mean when they say whatever they say.William J Murray
June 11, 2021
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KF said:
WJM, either you are acknowledging a legitimate first duty or you are cynically manipulating a widespread delusion.
I understand those are the only two options available to you under your worldview. That's really the essential problem in this debate. I've already addressed the rest of your comment in prior posts.William J Murray
June 11, 2021
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WJM:
Your inference is not my implication. When I say that, I’m saying I do not accept his insertion of those terms absent a description or explanation of what they specifically mean.
The problem is that you often try to deny the plain meaning of words when you think it will help your case. What you said to Kairosfocus means exactly this: "You have a duty to explain yourself." They are embedded in the words "You don't get to," meaning that Kairosfocus has a moral duty (obligation, moral responsibility) to explain himself. There is no other way to interpret your comment. The point is that YOU showed that YOU believe that Kairosfocus has a duty to explain what he means.StephenB
June 11, 2021
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The objective is an endless number of inane comments as one nonsense provocation after the other breeds more stupidity by answering.jerry
June 11, 2021
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Mahuna, I nowhere said whose policy history was at stake. It is enough that this was the single most destructive war on record, with massive associated genocidal crimes against humanity. I would note for record that English then British policy since the Elizabethan era was to contribute a balance to the dominant AGGRESSIVE European power of the day. In the run-up to WW1, Britain's splendid isolation was broken by Wilhelm's folly of creating a rapidly growing blue ocean navy with Britain as obvious target. Germany could easily have thrived without that, but a threat to Britain's sea arteries was and is a survival threat, as the Kaiser was explicitly counselled but ignored. However, that is just a note for record, it is far afield from the issue of the reality of self-evident truth as a first principles level issue. KF PS: My understanding is that as of the post Civil War massive immigration the largest single European ethnicity in the American population was German, and I gather that is more or less still the case though ethnicities are being blended away.kairosfocus
June 11, 2021
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"To our civilisation and wider humanity? Yes, the neighbour principle extends. Do I need to say more than, the demonic chaos of two world wars, the Nuremberg trials, a cold war and an emerging fourth de facto global war in a hundred years are lesson enough?" You gotta read more actual History, Jack. For several HUNDRED years, English foreign policy was based on the insane idea that England's "enemy" was the CURRENT "strongest country on the Continent". And so after fighting the powerful French for several HUNDRED years, England switched teams after Germany won the Franco-Prussian War and demonstrated they had the strongest Economy on "the Continent", England SUDDENLY tagged the Kaiser as "the Enemy" and began trying to collect allies to kill Germans. Oh, it's also important to note that MANY Americans [most especially Franklin Roosevelt] hated Germans as a PEOPLE. And so Germany had to be DESTROYED regardless of the much greater threat from Communist Russia. So, you can NEVER understand ANY chunk of History until you understand the actual Goals in the current situation. Current American foreign policy still has holdovers from when we hated Red China because they were dirty Commie rats. Many of the guys currently in charge of the US couldn't care less who's a dirty Commie rat because their focus is on international economics.mahuna
June 11, 2021
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WJM, either you are acknowledging a legitimate first duty or you are cynically manipulating a widespread delusion. If the latter, that already speaks for itself. However, as was pointed out many times over the years, the fact is we do have a built in sense and voice pointing to duty (save for the seriously defective). If any significant aspect of our rationality is delusional, there is no firewall and we are under grand delusion, credibility of rationality collapses. That is patently a reduction to absurdity, it is manifestly self-evident and undeniable on pain of grand delusion Plato's Cave absurdity that we are legitimately rational, responsible, conscience guided morally governed creatures. That focusses on intellectual responsibility, honesty and justice, which naturally expand into the Ciceronian first duties of reason. Just to remind on what you would brush aside, duties to truth, to right reason, to prudence [including warrant], to sound conscience, to neighbour, so too to fairness and justice etc. Where, too, the holographic/ microcosm/ facets principle applies, the whole is manifest in the facet and the facet contributes to the whole; coherence on steroids. KFkairosfocus
June 11, 2021
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KF @ 49: Bravo! Now we're getting to the necessary conditions for it to be said we have any duty at all (described succinctly in #48.) I appreciate it.William J Murray
June 11, 2021
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F/N: I think there should be a response too, to the challenge, to who, whom or what are morally freighted duties owed? To start with, to oneself. We have manifest capabilities and potential that should be fulfilled as much as possible. Our rationality has truth, in love, wisdom and justice as a patent end and self-frustration of that is a manifest evil. The chaotic consequences of evil are manifest and will spread to our neighbours, starting with our families. To our families? Yes, we are part of the chain of the race expressed through its natural units of reproduction and nurture. Family is our first neighbourhood. To our communities? Yes, we are part of the circle of society and community is the collective of more or less immediate neighbourhood. This naturally extends to the nation. The civil peace of justice is a framework for our mutual thriving and sets up a framework for sound law and government. The chaotic consequences of subverting, perverting or frustrating such speak for themselves, not least in the bloodily bought, tear stained lessons of history. To our civilisation and wider humanity? Yes, the neighbour principle extends. Do I need to say more than, the demonic chaos of two world wars, the Nuremberg trials, a cold war and an emerging fourth de facto global war in a hundred years are lesson enough? To the root of reality? Yes, as fulfillment of our proper potential for good is an obvious end for our rational, responsible, freely acting, conscience-guided nature. KFkairosfocus
June 11, 2021
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A duty does not, cannot "reveal itself," for a very simple reason. The concept of a duty requires (1) an authority that holds one responsible for fulfilling one's duties, and (2) consequences for both fulfilling and not fulfilling said duty. Absent those conditions, it cannot be said that a duty exists. A duty is revealed or made known by the presence of those conditions, QED. Furthermore, the only sense by which it can be said that I myself am operating from duty, is if I am aware of and have accepted that duty as my duty. It is irrational to claim I am acting or behaving out of duties I am neither aware of or have agreed to.William J Murray
June 11, 2021
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More mind-reading from Sandy:
Mister McClownnus you don’t seem to understand that what you accuse KF, actually you are doing. “You should listen to me McClownnus because I tell the truth.You shouldn’t listen to KF .” ?
Thus, the argument for moral duty boils down to mind-reading. Not a good argument.William J Murray
June 11, 2021
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I think SB, Vivid and KM have moved this conversation forward in an instructive manner. KF attempts to make an argument that his use of the term "duties" describes some fundamental aspects of human behavior; however, absent of the description of the framework that provides for the existence of a duty (an agency that holds one accountable and consequences), no such "duty" can be successfully described or said to exist. To make up for that, KF attempts to make the case that certain "common" expectations, reactions and behaviors reveal a self-evidently true duty. The problem is that the idea that these expectations, reactions and behaviors are "from" or "in reference to" a duty is an inference from behavior about something (duty) that requires more than just behavior to be said to exist. Duties require a framework that provides for it's existence, as I've pointed out. A "duty" without an authority that holds us responsible, or without consequences, cannot be said to be a duty. Behavior by itself doesn't make a duty. Self-evidently true statements do not rely on inferences and do not require anything other than understanding the statement. On the other hand, when I say that everyone's behavior is preferential in nature, that by itself has the same force and weight of other self-evidently true statements, to the point of it being a trivial, valid tautology. The case that every willful intention is made towards increasing or managing direct and abstract enjoyments is blatantly obvious to everyone. Indeed, if "doing our duty" carried with it no direct or abstract promise of an eventual outcome that is preferential, more enjoyable than the alternative, SB agrees that nobody would even care about moral duties. Also, Vivid and SB have pointed out exactly and directly where they are inferring from my statements when they believe I am appealing to KF's duties. That is not true. That is not how I think, not what I believe, not how I conduct my business in life. I interact with others based on an entirely different worldview. I have expectations of the behavior of others based to some degree on my history of interaction with them, but I certainly do not hold that pattern as inviolable or representative of some "duty" on their part. Again; inferences and common behaviors, emotional reactions, and expectations do not a duty make or reveal, much less a self-evident, inescapable, existential one.William J Murray
June 11, 2021
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Karen McMannus KF, You don’t even seem to understand the point I just made: even if your philosophy is true, it’s a prescriptive philosophy. Duties! Thou shalt do! WJM’s philosophy is descriptive: what humans do. You can’t see the difference?
Mister McClownnus you don't seem to understand that what you accuse KF, actually you are doing. "You should listen to me McClownnus because I tell the truth.You shouldn't listen to KF ." ?Sandy
June 11, 2021
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SB said:
Incredible. You just refuted yourself. To say “you don’t just get to add the term duty or include a concept like “moral absurdity without explaining what you mean” is exactly the same thing as saying “you have a duty to explain yourself.”
Your inference is not my implication. When I say that, I'm saying I do not accept his insertion of those terms absent a description or explanation of what they specifically mean. If he wants me to accept those terms, he has to explain and describe them adequately. He has to provide the framework any "duty" requires in order to be considered a duty in the first place, much less a self-evident one.William J Murray
June 11, 2021
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Vivid said:
WJM I am one of your biggest fan and certainly no match with you intellectually however the above sure looks like to me that your appealing to some kind of duty on KFs part.
It looks to KF like I and others are being evasive. It looks to Jerry like I'm a troll. "Looks to me like" is not a case for a self- evident, existential, inescapable moral duty.
WJM, I am simply sickened, saddened.
By what? That I don't acquiesce to your emotional pleading?
KM, the observation of the pervasiveness of duties of reason is not a philosophy.
You cannot observe these things, KF, you can only infer them from things you observe. Nobody can observe whether or not I am actually appealing to your duty when I say the things I say. That is an inference you have made from my and common behaviors. You infer I and others are being evasive from our behavior. Jerry infers that I'm a troll from my behavior. Lots of people infer lots of things from people's behaviors. I don't believe or think you or anyone has any duty whatsoever to reply in any particular manner to me. Do I expect a reasonable and rational response, as best you and some others here can provide? Yes, but not because of any duty I believe you have; it is because I have observed your behavior, or what you write here. There are people I do not interact with much because I don't expect to have an enjoyable, thoughtful, rational exchange with them. I also have an expectation that Jerry will turn every comment I make to him into a snarky, but often funny, dismissal of my words. Do I see that as Jerry's "duty?" If someone always makes snarky, condescending, dismissive comments, and I start expecting them, are they operating from a duty to format their comments that way? Am I then referring to their duty when I interact with them? If everyone expects me to wear a COVID mask, does that make it my "duty" to them to wear that mask? The expectations and common emotional reactions of others do not a self-evident duty describe or make. Your inferences about what I'm appealing to when I talk do not a duty make.William J Murray
June 11, 2021
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F/N: Notice, again, how truth has been defined. That is, as accurate description of actual states of affairs. If you want to extend to possible worlds not instantiated, as would obtain were they actualised; an advantage for logic of being analysis. Going further, there is thus the understanding that there can be truths regarding duty-bound actual or potentially actual states of affairs. More simply, truths about duty, especially as regards the civil peace of justice; involving, due balance of rights, freedoms and responsibilities. Yet more simply, there are moral truth-claims, which if valid, are moral truths. (What a sad and perilous state our civilisation is in, that reasonably educated people have to be led, step by step, through this.) Where, the denial or evasion of such truths is manifestly a truth claim about such a domain, i.e. it is a moral truth claim in disguise. In short it is undeniable that there are moral truths as the attempted denial is automatically such a claim. If true it is false, if false -- and by self referential incoherence it is false -- then directly, moral truths obtain. Where, we see here that such is an undeniable truth, and therefore warranted to certainty. By demonstration, then, we can and do know moral truths, again invalidating moral-form relativism, subjectivism and emotivism. Any scheme of thought that denies objective, knowable moral truth is falsified by undeniability of moral truth, thus knowability as a close corollary. Where, by corollary, it is equally undeniable that there is also moral error, requiring means of right reason to keep us on safe ground. Which then brings us back to the Ciceronian first duties. To truth, to right reason, to prudence [including warrant], to sound conscience, to neighbour, so too to fairness and justice, etc. KFkairosfocus
June 11, 2021
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KM, why are you resorting to personalities? The matter on merits is quite clear, even in your resort to "nincompoops" you imply that we are failing in duties of right reason and warrant; here by reason of alleged incompetence. Where, "toadies" -- singularly inapt -- implies intellectual dishonesty, thus also wrongful behaviour of the incompetent. Similarly, in decrying my allegedly muddled thinking, you imply much the same first duties of reason are binding, as in clear thinking that is sound. Which yet again underscores the core point you have refused to acknowledge from the outset, that even those who object to the Ciceronian duties, just to gain rhetorical traction, are forced to appeal to their legitimate authority over -- and pervading -- our life of reason. Such inescapability is precisely the signature of first principles, as say Epictetus discussed 1800+ years ago. Inescapable, so true and self evident as first principles of reason; here, regarding the duties of reason. Yes, that admittedly raises onward issues as to what sort of world . . . and, further onward, therefore, root of worlds . . . accounts for creatures like this, but that is precisely the point, they are ONWARD questions, driven by our self-evident realities of finding ourselves as responsible, rational, significantly free [enough to be rational], en-conscienced, inescapably morally governed creatures. KF PS: Just for record, the IS-OUGHT gap is in material part about the difference between what states of affairs obtain vs what should obtain were we to act consistently to the good, wise, true and right etc. The positivist attempt to privilege is failed, long since. And indeed that should have been evident at outset, we clearly have responsibilities and duties of reasoning, even as John C Wright points out, starting with honesty, i.e. truthfulness undergirded by right reason, prudence, sound conscience and duty to neighbour etc. Dishonest reasoning, as he highlighted, is worse than useless. Were it to become pervasive, it would be ruinous to civilisation, indeed that is the lying example commonly used to illustrate the Kantian Categorical Imperative. And yes, human thriving as a social creature in community enjoying the civil peace of justice marked by due balance of rights, freedoms and duties is a naturally manifest proper end of the good state of affairs we term civilisation. For technical details, consult Copi or any other competent Logic 101 textbook. Notice the unmistakable call to duty in such books.kairosfocus
June 11, 2021
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Gave you the benefit of the doubt, assumed you would have out grown bad manners and sneers if you were older. My mistake.Belfast
June 10, 2021
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Belfast: Arrogance in the young is unbecoming. Fooled many, and never fooled by any. I'm an old battle axe, baby doll. ;)Karen McMannus
June 10, 2021
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@ Karen McMannus @ 36 “ I ask: who here knows the difference between prescriptive and descriptive? If you don’t know the difference, there’s no point in going on. Let’s see who knows.” Don’t half fancy yourself, do you, Karen? Going to ask if they know about the Principle of Least Action, or Ethical Egoism, or Categorical Imperatives, or how about a simple one like the definition of Triskaidekaphobia? Arrogance in the young is unbecoming.Belfast
June 10, 2021
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Barry: KF, thank you for your indefatigable resolve. Why? Because he's on your team? You know very well that without the demands of an authoritarian power, "God", let's say, there's no basis for for "demands" or "duties", except for relative ethical "duties" that one might commit to, such as lawyers and doctors. Why have you been so silent? The others are relative nincompoops, but you're pretty smart. Where art thou, Barry? Make the case if you can. KF and his toadies can't.Karen McMannus
June 10, 2021
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I ask: who here knows the difference between prescriptive and descriptive? If you don't know the difference, there's no point in going on. Let's see who knows.Karen McMannus
June 10, 2021
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SB, yes, that is yet another case of failure to observe and recognise the pervasiveness and inescapable legitimate authority of ciceronian first duties in our thought and argument. This pervasiveness of course reflects their governing role in respect of reason, how they act as first principles present as we think, speak, write, argue and quarrel. Going beyond, the progressive, cumulative nature from duty to truth to duty to justice erects a frame for sound law and government, for lawful protective, freedom fostering society. I suspect objectors fail to realise the alternative is the ruthlessness of clan lords and blood feuds. Where, writ large, we are looking at lawless oligarchs imposing will by naked power. To itch at the restrictions of lawful liberty is to return to slavery. Do what thou wilt is a lie. KF PS: Such were pointed out, point by point, over and over, or sometimes in summary. The main argument ran that even objectors were unable to escape the inevitable appeal to such, showing inescapable truth thus self evidence. Disregarded. I suspect the fear that this shows moral government as an inescapable part of responsible rationality thus opening the door to a cosmos level moral governor. So they express objection to the latter by denying, dismissing or evading the former regardless of self-referential incoherence.kairosfocus
June 10, 2021
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WJM:
What then are the duties you are talking about? What agency is holding me responsible?
By definition, the moral law is all about duty. By definition, the moral law is about a moral obligation. That is why they call it a "law." The call to duty is built into the moral code. This is a self-evident truth.
You don’t just get to add the term “duty,” or include a concept like “moral absurdity,” without explaining what you mean.
Incredible. You just refuted yourself. To say "you don't just get to add the term duty or include a concept like "moral absurdity without explaining what you mean" is exactly the same thing as saying "you have a duty to explain yourself."StephenB
June 10, 2021
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KM, the observation of the pervasiveness of duties of reason is not a philosophy. Building a worldview comes long after observations on SET's. The OP noted, again, that SET's do not amount to enough to build a worldview. KF PS: Could I suggest, that duty or oughtness is a reflection of freedom? That is, because we are free we can act wisely or ill advisedly, destructively or constructively, i/l/o proper ends or in frustration of such. Passive entities such as rocks are governed by mechanical forces and are not free, they are dynamic-stochastic. Consequently they are not rational, yes, including computational substrates governed by mechanical necessity, stochastic effects and organisation. We are rational, able to choose, able to choose to follow ground-consequent chains, able to judge and acknowledge degree of support for a thesis or proposition or claim, able to decide, responsible to use such agency constructively. That is, to promote or express the proper, often naturally evident ends for entities and persons. A young child on the way home from school is travelling to family and to nurture towards fulfillment of personhood, having gone to an institution set up to equip with knowledge and skills for same. To ambush, bind, sexually torture and murder that child for a few moments of perverse pleasure at expense of violation, pain, fear and violent death frustrates obvious ends and manifests violation of duties to the civil peace of justice. Justice, being, due balance of rights, freedoms and duties. A legitimate right being an expectation to be upheld in certain ways such as life, person, etc, given one's personhood, conscience, consistent with those of others. One should not have to spell that out for any educated, civilised person. PPS: Do I need to highlight explicitly that, in the context of cases such as this, to object to the prescriptive nature of ought or duty is tantamount to inviting nihilistic will to power in its most blatant, chaotic form? Do you see why the civil peace of justice is a proper end of society, and do you not see that the alternative is clan lords and clan blood feuds, often genocidal?kairosfocus
June 10, 2021
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You don’t even seem to understand the point I just made: even if your philosophy is true, it’s a prescriptive philosophy. Duties! Thou shalt do! WJM’s philosophy is descriptive: what humans do. You can’t see the difference?
The difference is that Murray's philosophy is not what humans do because it gets them and their families killed. Everyone dies so why not younger and definitely more brutally is not very attractive to anyone. Kf's philosophy is practiced by humans because it ensures their safety and lets them live longer and thrive. It is this understanding of the nature of humans that is his philosophy. The behaviors/duties/obligations that allow this better and longer life are the result of his understanding of the nature of humans. Cicero got there over 2000 years. ago. So yes, Kf's philosophy is prescriptive because it leads to positive outcomes for humans while Murray's philosophy if there is one leads to early and often violent death.           Take your pickjerry
June 10, 2021
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KF, You don't even seem to understand the point I just made: even if your philosophy is true, it's a prescriptive philosophy. Duties! Thou shalt do! WJM's philosophy is descriptive: what humans do. You can't see the difference?Karen McMannus
June 10, 2021
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