Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Materialism and Moral Clarity

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

Its been fascinating to read the discussion started by Barry Arrington that seems to expose some critical holes in the moral thinking of materialism. The discussion seems to range from justifying the existence of pornography to denigrating religious organizations that proselytize as they offer help and assistance to those in need. And, as Barry pointed out, the discussion is 41 posts in (actually as of now 53 posts), and still no materialist has condemned the views of the poster called Seversky on moral grounds. Perhaps having to decide between helping women in poverty by buying pornography or by funding a religious charity is too morally complex a choice for clarity for a materialist, so I want to offer an alternative.

So, here’s a simple thought experiment for any of the materialists (or philosophical naturalists, or atheists) among our number here at Uncommon Descent. Perhaps this simple thought experiment can bring some clarity to moral questions from a materialist persepctive.

Here goes: You’re in a large city and walk up to a a busy street corner. Heavy traffic is whizzing by in both directions on the street you need to cross. As you prepare to cross, you notice next to you a smallish, frail, elderly woman, carrying some shopping bags, who also needs to cross the street, but is quite obviously nervous and frightened of the attempt. You now have 3 options: 1) you can ignore her completely and just go about your business; 2)you can push her into the traffic; 3) you can assist her to get safely across the street. The moral question is, what is the right thing to do and why is it the right thing to do (that is to say, how can we know that is the right thing to do)?

Comments
I don't know what Hitler, et al, thought in their heart of hearts. But I do know that in the case of WWII a coalition of Christians, Jews, some Muslims, Sikhs, Hindus, Gerkhas (not sure if they're Buddhists . . .), atheists and even a few Native Americans fought to defeat the Axis powers which included Christians and Shintos and whatever else the Japanese were. Premises matter but they don't always seems to prevent people perpetrating crimes against humanity and their lack doesn't stop people from doing the right thing. I teach my son to treat other with dignity and respect. I'm sure you do the same with your children, if you have any. We both get there, that's the important thing.ellazimm
October 6, 2009
October
10
Oct
6
06
2009
08:21 AM
8
08
21
AM
PDT
Donald, I'm not sure I agree it is a scientific question but I better understand your interest and I thank you for taking the time to elucidate your view. I am completely unqualified to participate in the discussion further but will continue to follow it with interest. Just to be clear: I am a strong supporter of my local vicar and my local church. I am part of a community and do what I can to help uphold the things that make it place I want to raise my child. Which means, in part, people looking our for each other and respecting each other. I expect to be treated the same. To me this is just so obvious that asking where it comes from is like asking where the natural numbers come from; interesting to some but probably not something you'll ever be able to settle. :-)ellazimm
October 6, 2009
October
10
Oct
6
06
2009
07:32 AM
7
07
32
AM
PDT
Ellazimm asks: Objective morality . . . . what difference does it make? We’re all reasonable and intelligent people, we all know what is right . . . does it matter how we know? Don't you think that Torquemada, Hitler, Stalin & Mao and their cronies thought exactly the same thing? It is precisely through unexamined premises that anything can be rationalized. Materialists argue as if they have the free will to make or discern truthful statements, but their premise invalidates that ability. Darwinists can believe what they believe only by not examining their premise that through chance and deep time all things are possible. Premises matter. Without a sound premise, all sorts of incoherencies - such as "I know what's moral even though I don't have the free will to deliberately make such an intentional evaluation" - are offered up as sound explanation.William J. Murray
October 6, 2009
October
10
Oct
6
06
2009
07:24 AM
7
07
24
AM
PDT
ellazimm
Objective morality . . . . what difference does it make? We’re all reasonable and intelligent people, we all know what is right . . . does it matter how we know? As long as enough of us do to support our legislatures and police forces to deal with the few who don’t. I guess I really don’t get it: I thought we were here to discuss the scientific validity of intelligent design and yet Donald and Barry seem more interested in scoring philosophical points against decent intelligent people who basically feel and act the same way they do. This whole notion that accepting evolution implies a moral-less world view is so clearly NOT the way most people, not just most materialists/darwinists/humanists/atheists but most people, behave I just don’t see the point in arguing about it.
And Mark Frank
For the record – I believe that there are certain motives which are moral in nature – such as seeking to reduce others suffering. To ask how we know these are right makes as much as sense as asking how we know that something is funny. It is just a feeling we have – an important one. Hume call them moral passions.
On the contrary, I think it is extremely important to understand and answer the question 'why be moral.' Of course its a question rooted deeply in one's worldview. That's the point. Ellazimm makes the point that accepting a Darwinian view of the origin of humans does not imply a moral-less worldview. I agree. The question I'm getting at is: how can that moral worldview be explained in purely materialistic Darwinian terms. The consensus here on the question posed in the OP seems to be that option 3 -- helping the woman to cross the street safely -- is the correct moral choice. What surprises me a bit is how many don't seem to think that explaining or understanding why (or even asking why) is all the important, as exemplified in the two quotes above by Ellazimm and Mark Frank. I have to disagree with that. If we do not know why a certain choice is the morally correct one, (and further don't even think it is important to ask why), then there seems little justification for saying that it is the right choice, beyond personal preference, or that's just the way it is. I find that wholly unsatisfactory. The question "where does our moral sense come from" is a legitimate scientific question, as well as philosophical one (to answer Ellazimm's worry that this doesn't seem to be a scientific question or have anything to do with ID or evolution). On the Darwinian view our moral sense is, by definition, the end result of the blind, purposeless forces of matter of energy evolving over eons of time through chance and/or necessity. Given that origin, we have no basis to say "this option is right" or "this option is wrong". We can state a preference, but that is all. In the question given in the OP if person A says option 2 is the correct choice and person B says option 3 is the correct choice, on the Darwinian view, both moralities are the end product of the Darwinian process. Darwinian explanations do not provide with the means to judge between them. But, as has been shown in the discussion here, we do judge between them. Wherever that moral judgement comes from, it is not itself the end product of the blind, purposeless forces of matter and energy evolving over eons time through chance and/or necessity. So what is its origin? Trying to explain it in Darwinian terms seems to get us nowhere...or at least nowhere coherent. Maybe our moral sense, those things which we can not not know, as Dr. Jay Budziszewski discusses in his book What We Can't Not Know, is giving us a strong indication something else at work in our origins beyond just the Darwinian process. And maybe that something is Intelligent Design.DonaldM
October 6, 2009
October
10
Oct
6
06
2009
06:55 AM
6
06
55
AM
PDT
That good feeling, again in my humble opinion, is that we have experienced and helped cause an increase of love, which is the realness and joy of life.avocationist
October 5, 2009
October
10
Oct
5
05
2009
10:19 PM
10
10
19
PM
PDT
Well, the evolutionists will answer that we have evolved to live in cooperative societies, and that it does not need to include kin only, because, as someone said above, he would like to think that if his mum were out there, someone would help. It's interesting that most people want to help and don't know why. Let us remember that whether we profess to believe or not, we are all endowed with a soul/conscience. Our professed belief is not really the cause of more moral behavior. I think a clue to something deeper than just genes is that people get such an incredibly good feeling when they help, and often go so far out of their way to do so, even risking themselves at times for complete strangers. I wouldn't call morality objective though. Rather it is utterly subjective - seeing as it (IMO) comes from the soul. The Kingdom of Heaven is within.avocationist
October 5, 2009
October
10
Oct
5
05
2009
10:18 PM
10
10
18
PM
PDT
I think monastyrsky got it right at #22. And, as someone else said, how do we 'know' something is funny ? All this thread will do is contribute to global warming.Graham
October 5, 2009
October
10
Oct
5
05
2009
03:31 PM
3
03
31
PM
PDT
Rats! That should be a deadly serious number 8, not a smiley.steve_h
October 5, 2009
October
10
Oct
5
05
2009
03:08 PM
3
03
08
PM
PDT
I agree with earlier posters who prefer to live in a harmonious society and don't find the murder of others and ourselves appealing. And I want to live in the sort of society that will help my mum across the street and may in future help me. Now, I assume for the sake of argument that the old lady had just bought a fox, a chicken, and some corn and that you can only carry one item at a time while escorting the old lady. 1) Ask the old lady if she needs any help. Frequently in these scenarios, it turns out that the old lady has just arrived here from the other side, and had no intention of crossing. 2) Tie up the fox. Cross the road with the old lady and the chicken, leaving the fox to defend itself and the corn against the local (materialists/theists/id proponents). 3) Ask the old lady to wait with the chicken while you get the rest of her shopping and warn her to be wary of the locals. 4) Cross back across the road alone to your starting point. 5) Take the corn. Cross back to the old lady. 6) Leave the old lady with the corn and return with the chicken. 7) Take the fox across the road to the old lady leaving the chicken to defend itself against the bad guys. 8) Return to get the chicken. Finding nothing, and suddenly realizing that the old lady is about to denounce you as a chicken thief to the world. So buy a similar looking chicken and take it back to the old lady and the fox and the corn only to find that some kindly atheist/theist/idists had already brought the original chicken across. 9) Look forward to a nice meal.steve_h
October 5, 2009
October
10
Oct
5
05
2009
03:03 PM
3
03
03
PM
PDT
Given that a busy street corner is one of the worst possible places to cross the road, I would first look up and down the street to see whether a pedestrian crossing, bridge or subway is available. If so, I would point it out to the Frail Old Lady - assuming that she hadn't noticed it. If not such crossing facilities are available, I would first ask her if she wants any assistance crossing, then assist her if she wants my help. Why is this the right thing to do? Because the sum total of my social experiences tell me that is right to help people who need our help, and that if I was in her position I'd probably appreciate someone doing that. So a combination of social experience and empathy.Reg
October 5, 2009
October
10
Oct
5
05
2009
01:50 PM
1
01
50
PM
PDT
Mr DonaldM, As with Seversky and Dr Dembski, I am opting out of your choices, and simply giving a light hearted example. As to the source of my choices, the Golden Rule. The Evolution of Cooperation is a fun read.Nakashima
October 5, 2009
October
10
Oct
5
05
2009
01:43 PM
1
01
43
PM
PDT
Some people say there is no such thing as a stupid question. I wish to congratulate you for your work in falsifying that hypothesis.
Glad to oblige, although given your track record I suspect you have mis-read my comment. The more important question, however, is how can we know? Care to answer or do you prefer to repose in smugness?Larry Tanner
October 5, 2009
October
10
Oct
5
05
2009
01:24 PM
1
01
24
PM
PDT
DonaldM
The moral question is, what is the right thing to do and why is it the right thing to do (that is to say, how can we know that is the right thing to do)?
When you ask how "we" can know that it is the right thing, are you assuming that there is only one correct answer? Wouldn't the answer you get depend on who was answering and what morals their society espoused?camanintx
October 5, 2009
October
10
Oct
5
05
2009
01:00 PM
1
01
00
PM
PDT
#21 DonaldM wrote: That doesn’t really tell us how we can know it is the right thing to do. If the alleviation of suffering/discomfort is the motivation for right action, then we need an explanation as to how can we know that the alleviation of discomfort/suffering is the right thing. As it stands, your explanation as to why merely restates the 3rd option in a slightly different way. It may be that helping her across the street will result in reducing or eliminating her suffering/discomfort…but that still doesn’t tell us how we can know that that is in fact the right thing to do. DonaldM - I expect you know that you are raising an age old question that has been the subject of whole books by great philosophers over the ages. I somehow doubt that we are going to add much light debating on this forum. For the record - I believe that there are certain motives which are moral in nature - such as seeking to reduce others suffering. To ask how we know these are right makes as much as sense as asking how we know that something is funny. It is just a feeling we have - an important one. Hume call them moral passions. Any other account of morality has to grapple with the problem - why do what is right?Mark Frank
October 5, 2009
October
10
Oct
5
05
2009
12:52 PM
12
12
52
PM
PDT
Larry Tanner asks: "is the song of songs pornographic?" No. Some people say there is no such thing as a stupid question. I wish to congratulate you for your work in falsifying that hypothesis.Barry Arrington
October 5, 2009
October
10
Oct
5
05
2009
12:50 PM
12
12
50
PM
PDT
Objective morality . . . . what difference does it make? We're all reasonable and intelligent people, we all know what is right . . . does it matter how we know? As long as enough of us do to support our legislatures and police forces to deal with the few who don't. I guess I really don't get it: I thought we were here to discuss the scientific validity of intelligent design and yet Donald and Barry seem more interested in scoring philosophical points against decent intelligent people who basically feel and act the same way they do. This whole notion that accepting evolution implies a moral-less world view is so clearly NOT the way most people, not just most materialists/darwinists/humanists/atheists but most people, behave I just don't see the point in arguing about it. Whether some generous creator imbibed us with the notions of right and wrong (and some folks clearly missed that memo) or human beings just kind of figured it out on our own (and again some folks were absent from school that day) does it really matter? What matters is that we all want to be treated with respect and dignity and most of us on this planet think we should treat others that way. The only reason I can see for arguing about it anymore is to try and win some other argument. And I don't think that argument has anything to do with evolution vs intelligent design: the science. But I'm wrong a lot. I am trying really hard NOT to put words into other people's mouths or judge them based on their ideology and I'd like to be judged the same way.ellazimm
October 5, 2009
October
10
Oct
5
05
2009
12:12 PM
12
12
12
PM
PDT
Having been in situations in which I perceived someone to be in need of help, allow me to offer a perspective. In some such situations I have offered help. Sometimes that offer is accepted; at other times it is refused. When I have offered help in such situations, I feel I have acted compassionately and ethically. When I have done nothing, it could be for a variety of reasons, including (a) feeling unsure of my interpretation of the other person's state, (b) feeling unsafe either due to the environment or the appearance and/or actions of the other person, (c) being constrained in other ways. In such cases, I don't recollect a case where I acted in an unethical manner. So for the case in hand, I would hope that I would not feel some constraint to prevent me from offering to help, but what happens after that is dependent on whether the lady in fact would accept my help.fmarotta
October 5, 2009
October
10
Oct
5
05
2009
12:11 PM
12
12
11
PM
PDT
The moral question is, what is the right thing to do and why is it the right thing to do (that is to say, how can we know that is the right thing to do)?
I hope I would choose option #3 because it's the kind of behavior my parents and teachers both advocated and exemplified. It may also be worthwhile to consider the moral merits/demerits of options #1 and 2. For example, is it immoral to choose option #1? How can we know? What about option #2? One other question that crossed my mind: is the song of songs pornographic? how can we know? Nothing specific intended by it, just one of those thoughts that may be interesting for readers across the spectrum. And, if the notion of objective morality is going to make its inevitable appearance here: I'll throw in my two cents of an opinion that it makes an interesting notion, but that's all it is...an interesting notion.Larry Tanner
October 5, 2009
October
10
Oct
5
05
2009
12:08 PM
12
12
08
PM
PDT
Monastyrski
I have a feeling where DonaldM wants this to go: how can you “know” it’s right to help the old lady when you don’t believe in “objective morality”. Right, DonaldM?
Acutally, no. The question can be answered whether one does or doesn't accept the notion of objective morality (OM).DonaldM
October 5, 2009
October
10
Oct
5
05
2009
10:58 AM
10
10
58
AM
PDT
I think ellazimm@6 does have a point. In my opinion the thread is being saved by Denyse O'Leary who is manifestly qualified to hold this kind of discussion. Perhaps others could pay more attention to her blogging example! They could find worse models.chrisdornan
October 5, 2009
October
10
Oct
5
05
2009
10:53 AM
10
10
53
AM
PDT
I have a feeling where DonaldM wants this to go: how can you "know" it's right to help the old lady when you don't believe in "objective morality". Right, DonaldM?Monastyrski
October 5, 2009
October
10
Oct
5
05
2009
10:35 AM
10
10
35
AM
PDT
Mark
The question was – what is the right thing to do. Assuming not oddities then of course it is (3). How do I know? Because that will almost certainly reduce her discomfort/ suffering.
That doesn't really tell us how we can know it is the right thing to do. If the alleviation of suffering/discomfort is the motivation for right action, then we need an explanation as to how can we know that the alleviation of discomfort/suffering is the right thing. As it stands, your explanation as to why merely restates the 3rd option in a slightly different way. It may be that helping her across the street will result in reducing or eliminating her suffering/discomfort...but that still doesn't tell us how we can know that that is in fact the right thing to do.DonaldM
October 5, 2009
October
10
Oct
5
05
2009
10:35 AM
10
10
35
AM
PDT
Nakashima at 12, you write at : "For example, if I offered to carry her bags while helping her across the street, I could acquire additional social stature (from the drivers of the stopped traffic) and then when we are on the other side, I run off with the bags, thus acquiring material benefit as well. Like a lion at a watering hole, I might actually loiter about this heavily travelled intersection, waiting for old ladies to appear." No one should try this in my neighbourhood in Toronto. We jail serious perps. I doubt a typical criminal court judge here would be much interested in claims about acquired social stature. If a person wants to acquire social stature in prison, well ... he'd better talk to the Angels, not the judge or me.O'Leary
October 5, 2009
October
10
Oct
5
05
2009
10:30 AM
10
10
30
AM
PDT
ellazimm
And clearly helping the old woman across the street is the right choice. Why? Because it’s that kind of behavior which contributes to the kind of supportive and progressive society I want to live in.
Your explanation of why doesn't really answer what was asked. I asked "The moral question is, what is the right thing to do and why is it the right thing to do (that is to say, how can we know that is the right thing to do)?" Note that I qualified the 'why' question to focus on how we can know it is the right thing to do. I appreciate that you'd want to help her because that is the sort of society you'd prefer to live in. But one's personal preference doesn't tell us how we can know what is the right thing to do.DonaldM
October 5, 2009
October
10
Oct
5
05
2009
10:29 AM
10
10
29
AM
PDT
Nakashima
For example, if I offered to carry her bags while helping her across the street, I could acquire additional social stature (from the drivers of the stopped traffic) and then when we are on the other side, I run off with the bags, thus acquiring material benefit as well. Like a lion at a watering hole, I might actually loiter about this heavily travelled intersection, waiting for old ladies to appear.
The question I asked was not what you would do...the question was what is the right thing to do and how can we know it is the right thing to do. That is very different. You've brought in a different question...interesting perhaps in its own right, but not what's being asked here. How would you answer the question as posed?DonaldM
October 5, 2009
October
10
Oct
5
05
2009
10:25 AM
10
10
25
AM
PDT
JamesBond
I’m a materialist, I’d probably help the old lady across the street... PS: What’s with the increasingly frequent posts on religious stuff here? Isn’t it in your best interests to distance ID from religion as much as possible?
1. You didn't tell us why that's the right choice...or more to the point how we can know that is the right choice. 2. There's nothing in my OP about religion. I'm asking a straightforward moral question.DonaldM
October 5, 2009
October
10
Oct
5
05
2009
10:23 AM
10
10
23
AM
PDT
JamesBond at 13, you write: "PS: What's with the increasingly frequent posts on religious stuff here? Isn't it in your best interests to distance ID from religion as much as possible?" I didn't know that civic virtue was an explicitly religious project. Civic virtue is under discussion here. The question of whether people help other people's grandmothers is - as Ellazimm rightly says - the question of what kind of a human society we want to have. If we are strict neo-Darwinists, we might believe in the "selfish gene" and help only our own kin. Apparently, most humans in Canada are not fans of the selfish gene, because we are fairly generous with outsiders, some say to a fault. Maybe the local Darwinists should apply for a research grant to fund missionary work. I sure hope they fail. Of course, they could always disown Dawkins's "selfish gene" and try to come up with a more rational theory of human evolution.O'Leary
October 5, 2009
October
10
Oct
5
05
2009
10:20 AM
10
10
20
AM
PDT
Ellazimm, you write, "I help maintain the church grounds in my local village AND I support charities based on what they do with the money NOT on their ideology." I congratulate you on an excellent volunteer and giving strategy. Church grounds can usually be used by anyone for non-nuisance purposes (at least here in Canada), so helping to maintain them is an excellent community benefit. Re money, it is wise to know just what the ideology is when deciding (but I expect you agree). (We've had trouble with some charities that turned out to be funding terrorist organizations, but if you stick to the main stream, you won't likely encounter them.)O'Leary
October 5, 2009
October
10
Oct
5
05
2009
10:09 AM
10
10
09
AM
PDT
The question was - what is the right thing to do. Assuming not oddities then of course it is (3). How do I know? Because that will almost certainly reduce her discomfort/ suffering.Mark Frank
October 5, 2009
October
10
Oct
5
05
2009
10:04 AM
10
10
04
AM
PDT
I'm a materialist, I'd probably help the old lady across the street. I wouldn't donate to a religious charity if there was a secular alternative. PS: What's with the increasingly frequent posts on religious stuff here? Isn't it in your best interests to distance ID from religion as much as possible?JamesBond
October 5, 2009
October
10
Oct
5
05
2009
09:41 AM
9
09
41
AM
PDT
1 2 3

Leave a Reply