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A Resolution for Darwin Year

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I have accepted an invitation to comment regularly on Uncommon Descent for the Darwin Anniversary 2009 (200 years for Darwin himself and 150 years for Origin of Species). My plan is to draw attention to some ideas, arguments, articles and books relating to the ongoing ID-evolution debate. I’ll also say something about when and where I will be speaking about these matters in the coming year.

 

In particular, my comments will focus on two general lines of thought that have also been featured in two books I have written relating to the debate over the past couple of years. Science vs. Religion? Intelligent Design and the Problem of Evolution and Dissent over Descent: Intelligent Design’s Challenge to Darwinism

  1. Darwinism is an undead 19th century social theory.
  2. ID needs to confront the ‘Pastafarian’ Argument.

 

First, stripped of its current scientific scaffolding, Darwinism is a 19th century social theory that has been turned into a ‘general unified theory of everything’, and as such belongs in the same category as Marxism and Freudianism. The big difference is that Marxism and Freudianism – throughout their existence – have been contested (many would say decisively) by several alternative ways of organizing and interpreting the same body of data. In the case of Darwinism, this largely ended by 1950. However, it doesn’t mean that Darwinism has somehow turned into something other than a 19th century social theory.  No, it’s simply a 19th century social theory with unusual clout. Indeed, Darwinism is really no different from Marxism and Freudianism in using its concepts as rhetorical devices for associating intuitively clear phenomena with rather deep and mysterious causes. I hope to draw your attention to examples of this in the coming weeks.

 

Second, amidst the boneheadedness and bigotry that characterise most attacks on ID, the ‘Flying Spaghetti Monster’ argument needs to be taken seriously. After all, what good is a theory of ‘intelligent design’ if it has nothing to say about the nature of the designer?  ID supporters are susceptible to the charge of ‘Pastafarianism’ because of their reluctance to speak openly about God – understandably, in a scientific culture that is so actively hostile to the very idea. (Also, religious scruples are probably in play.) Nevertheless, the most natural way to make sense, say, Dembski’s ‘explanatory filter’ and Behe’s ‘irreducible complexity’ is as saying something about, respectively, God’s bandwidth and God’s building blocks. Moreover, these are things that people can argue about reasonably, using logic and evidence, just as they would about any other comprehensive explanatory principle, such as ‘natural selection’. But it means returning to the original science of design, or ‘theodicy’, a branch of theology that became increasingly unfashionable after Kant and effectively died after Darwin.

 

Let me close with an observation on this last point, inspired by reading an article by Alex Byrne in the latest issue of the Boston Review. At one level, it is merely a sophisticated version of the familiar pseudo-syllogism: All philosophical arguments for God’s existence fail, ID is a version of one such argument, ergo ID fails. However, much more interesting is Byrne’s rhetorical undertow, which sends the message: ‘Look, you ID people don’t believe in God on rational grounds anyway, so why bother trying to find some? Just admit it’s a matter of faith, and let the scientists get on doing real science.’ If ID supporters grant this point, they effectively remove from scientific inquiry exactly what distinguishes their position from Darwinism, namely, the existence of an intelligent designer. But this in turn means that ID will need to be more forthright in advancing scientific theories of God – what ‘theology’ ought to mean. In other words, a persuasive intelligent design theory should provide rational grounds for believing in the existence of God.

 

Comments
Fuller's call for ID to enter into the field of explicating the nature of the designer is wrongheaded for several reasons, most of which have be best addressed by Tribune7 (entry #3) and Upright Biped (entry #19). Tribune7 gives an excellent analogy, suggesting that the oil warning light is clearly worthwhile even IF that warning light doesn't give us the precise nature of the problem at hand. Upright Biped correctly notes that forcing the issue down this road would be strategically disasterous. So, in short, it is both unnecessary and imprudent. One real thing that design does is negate Darwinian materialism. They can't both be right. Teleological design and random stochastic processes are simply oxymoronic. Either it is one or the other; it cannot be both. Now the Boston Review article, it seems to me, lends nothing by chiding ID for not elucidating the nature of a designer and then postulating a ridiculous series of strawmen designers such as a "stupid mechanic," a long-dead designer who crafted in his/its "dottage," or a succession of "incompetent committees." One must ask, does the nature of the cell's complexity, or of information contained within DNA suggest any of these in the remotest? C. S. Lewis once said nonsense spoken even about God remains nonsense and so are Alex Byrne's inane hypotheticals. Nor do they in the least pompt me to issue a clarion call for ID to intrude into the realm of revealed theology. Tribune7 correctly states, "a thermometer doesn’t need to identify the source of heat to tell you the turkey is done." But I will say that once ID tries to investigate the oven it will become one cooked goose. Why? Because it's very power is in it minimalism. Darwin built his power from atheistic minimalism and sophistry. I see no reason we cannot build upon a strength of teleological minimalism and honest logic. By so doing the theological chips will finally be allowed to fall where they may instead of ruling them out of the game of reason pre-emptively. In short, ID paves the way for meaningful dialogue about the nature of a designer or designers; it should NOT be the dialogue itself.Flannery
December 29, 2008
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I'm just objectively stating that a design inference in itself does not say anything about the origination of the Designer(s) in question and the conditions they/it came to exist within. Dembski, Wells, and Luskin would probably agree with me. But they'd also add that in their opinion there's enough auxiliary evidence to prefer other scenarios.Patrick
December 29, 2008
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Patrick, How can you say that (#34). Man, I wish Drs. Dembski or Wells or Casey Luskin were here to say something about this.Platonist
December 29, 2008
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it is fairly easy to eliminate Dawkins’ space-aliens on the basis that the Designer must ultimately be undesigned, and distinct from what has been designed.
I do not hold strongly to this hypothesis but it can not be rejected so easily. You are presuming that the same conditions in our own solar system are the same throughout the universe, or that another form of life and intelligence other than our own could not arise. Essentially, an unknown law could be in operation elsewhere in the universe. Although, if the uniformity of the universe is to be preferred then your observation is correct.Patrick
December 29, 2008
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In summary, then (since this post has grown a little longer than I’d originally expected), intelligent design pretty much rules out atheism, and certainly rules out certain varieties of theism, but I don’t expect it will ever point unequivocally to a single candidate for the Designer. Exactly, nor does it need to in order to be useful just as a thermometer doesn't need to identify the source of heat to tell you the turkey is done.tribune7
December 29, 2008
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Dr. Fuller is correct in saying that "a persuasive intelligent design theory should provide rational grounds for believing in the existence of God", but that's not the same thing as being able unequivocally to identify the God in question. It does seem to me, however, that intelligent design should be able to provide us certain clues that will, so to speak, narrow the field of possible choices. For example, it is fairly easy to eliminate Dawkins' space-aliens on the basis that the Designer must ultimately be undesigned, and distinct from what has been designed. Insofar as the whole universe, and not just living organisms, show some indications of having been designed (at the level of the fine structure constant etc.) then this puts the Designer firmly outside the known universe, and pre-existent to it. To the extent that theists and atheists all agree that the universe shows signs of having had a beginning, then the 'Kalam' argument as often articulated by William Lane Craig (briefly, "since whatever begins to exist has a cause, there must exist a transcendent cause of the universe") is extremely persuasive. That satisfies most definitions of 'God'. We can go a little further. Darwin himself belonged to the Unitarian tradition (I happen to live in his home town, Shrewsbury in England, where he is commemorated in the Unitarian church on the main street). It seems that in this view, anything created by God, who is by definition good, must itself be good and perfect, so that anything in nature which is not good and perfect is an argument against its creation by God. Of course, there are many things in nature that do not appear good and perfect, and there is plenty of evidence (see for example the Wikipedia entry on Darwin) that it was this consideration, and ultimately the death of his daughter Annie, that Darwin found himself unable to square with his previous Unitarian beliefs and drove him to believe in evolution for what were ultimately theological, rather than scientific, reasons. To the extent that intelligent design shows 'bad' things, such as diseases and predators, to have been designed as well as 'good' things, it rules out conceptions of God which require everything in nature to be as originally designed by a perfect, beneficient designer. Those whose concept of God stops at this point will not find intelligent design congenial. What of course this doesn't rule out is the Biblical account. There we read of a creation which was originally "very good" (Gen. 1:31), but which was subsequently cursed (Gen. 3:17) as a direct consequence of human sin. What we expect to observe in the universe today, therefore, is not beneficient perfection, but "the whole creation [...] groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time" (Rom. 8:22), wholly consistent with design in nature that often appears sub-optimal or even malicious - a God who is perfect, beneficient, but also just. In summary, then (since this post has grown a little longer than I'd originally expected), intelligent design pretty much rules out atheism, and certainly rules out certain varieties of theism, but I don't expect it will ever point unequivocally to a single candidate for the Designer. As the science develops, different theisms will need to be evaluated against it, but it may be that more than one candidate is left standing at the end of this process. On the basis of everything I've seen so far, it seems likely that the God of the Bible (or, less equivocally, the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ) will still be there. Those with deeper knowledge of other belief systems, including the FSM crowd, will have to decide for themselves whether theirs stand up as well, or not.Stephen Morris
December 29, 2008
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Hi Steve, Steve Fuller wrote:
After all, what good is a theory of ‘intelligent design’ if it has nothing to say about the nature of the designer?
Good question but there is also a bit of irony inherent in this question because those who criticize ID's reluctance to address this issue seem to totally discount its bearing on their own explanations. The question could be restated "what good is a theory of gravity if we can't say something about the ultimate source of gravity?" For the materialist this eventually falters in an infinite regression or "it's turtles all the way down". So the argument "who designed the designer" as a road block to ID arguments, if valid, should be just as devastating to those who reject ID. So the question becomes "good for whom or what?" If it is for science, per se, I don't know except that design theory could circumscribe the limits of mechanistic explanations and promote a paradigm that includes teleological dynamics. Who knows how that would play out? However, if the good is for theology, I think it can be a profound resource. If there is a teleological aspect to reality then why not probe its dynamics in what we can empirically examine. After all observation, both scientific and personal, has been utilized in the history of religion ever since religious thought emerged. So can we ascertain something about the nature of the designer(s) from examining evolution from a teleological perspective? I think we can but within certain limits. Having been a design engineer for over 30 years, I think I can infer a few things about a designer from what they designed. There are enumerable ways to look at a design and determine something about the designer from its elegance, use of modularity, economy, tolerancing, planning for future modifications, knowledge or lack of, aesthetic temperament, etc. Ultimately the artifact reflects on the artisan and the constraints within which they work. However, if we can infer something of the nature of the designer(s), it will be limited to our understanding of the design process and the nature of human designers. Further extrapolation from that falls into the realm of speculative theology or in the case of revelatory religious systems, revelation. Having said all that, I think there are features to evolution that can suggest something about what the designer(s) accept in the design process, and further suggest something about the designer(s) nature. If the design detection evidence and arguments do seem compelling then there might be a few things suggestive of the designer(s). First, the designer(s) design within constraints. If the designer is inferred to be God then, God as ultimate, this means self-constraint. The self-constraint of God (in this reality) in theology can be found in various religious formulations such as kenosis in Western theology and the constraints of Atman in Eastern theology. This suggests that the nature of God for this reality is one of self-constraint. If one accepts descent with modification within an ID theory then each successive step is constrained by the givens of the moment. This seems evident in that organisms, for the most part change very gradually, although there may be times when significant change can occur because the constraints allow for it. This also means that because of constraints, subsequent designs may not be optimum from the stand point of complete redesign from scratch. In fact, one of the hallmarks of a great designer is the ability to take what is given and create a beautiful redesign within the constraints at hand. Secondly, we could infer that the designer(s) utilize the acceptance test as a design tool. Designers can do their best within the constraints but they must ultimately pass an acceptance test to prove adequate. One could view natural selection as the acceptance test the designer(s) utilize as a teleological tool. This means that for the designer(s) the cycle of life and death is part of the design process. From this one could infer that for the designer(s) death is not to be viewed in a negative light from a teleological perspective but rather as an essential part of the meaning of this existence. These are few examples of how ID could address the nature of the designer(s). More could be said on this and I have offered such here: http://theology3m.blogsome.com/2008/08/30/id-and-the-designer/#more-60Steve Petermann
December 29, 2008
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StephenB, I'd agree with you (hey, that's a nice change), and add a caveat: I think there is a task for further 'identifying the designer'. But said task lies outside the bounds of science. It's a job for theology, for religious and philosophical consideration. But it's a distinct job. I fear that the implicit goal here - to make ID acceptable to people hostile to it - is a fool's errand. The goal should not be to have a 'darwinist' approve of ID (even a theist like Ken Miller, for example) but rather to establish the judgment of a designer being at work in the universe as a rational and acceptable conclusion, opposition to be damned.nullasalus
December 29, 2008
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-----Steve F: ...."and the other half will grant the design but find the need for a designer (and hence ID) superfluous. You can’t win with those odds." If you play that game, you can't win at all. You might as well say that some Darwinists don't agree that a painting indicates a painter or that the Mona Lisa did not need a DaVinci. Once one denies the obvious, the only thing left to do is explain the principles of right reason to him (in the presence of onlookers) and expose him for what he is---and irrational ideologue. The problem is that the academy, for self-serving reasons, rejects Aristotle’s and Aquinas’ sound realism, even though it provides the metaphysical foundations for science, and accepts Kant’s skepticism, even though it militates against those same foundations. They have framed the issue and set the agenda: they will not allow “God’s foot in the door.” As a result, almost all institutions for higher learning dismiss the evidence for design and against skepticism by implementing their “show-me-more” strategy. So, if as design thinkers, we provide them with evidence for the “fine tuning” of the solar system; they simply say, “show me more.” If we show them FSCI in a DNA molecule, they say, “show me more.” If we provide evidence for the big bang, they say, “show me more.” Like saps sitting in on a fixed card game, we play along as if we weren’t being conned. So, we promise that we will keep doing research in the hope that someday we will be able please them. In fact, we have already done more than enough to earn our place at the table, and we have shown that we have the better hand---even with the deck stacked against us. To us, they have been saying, “show me more.” To them, we have been saying, “show me anything.” Accordingly, we cannot allow our adversaries (or our friends) to hold our own modesty against us. At the present time, ID can show only that a “designer” exists. Unlike Darwinists, ID scientists know what it can and cannot do. If only our adversaries understood their limitations half as well. At the moment, ID cannot explain how the “actor acts,” and it may well never be able to do it. Actors are, after all, under no obligation to act any certain way. Indeed, that is what the actor’s intelligence and creativity are all about—the capacity to surprise, create, and act one way or another or even to not act at all. How can one show the “process” behind Mozart’s compositions or differentiate that process with those of Bach or a Wagner. Isn’t that the whole point of intelligent innovation--- to create in such a way as to separate oneself from all other creators? To ask how the actor acts is, in effect, to insist that the actor explain its behavior in non-innovative, machine like terms. Things just don't always work that way. Shakespeare did not write poetry like Dante and Jerry Lee Lewis does not play the piano like Chopin. Granted, science may some day discover how God designed life this one time, but it shoud not need to do so in order to win its rightful place at the table. To ask ID to figure out how “God does things,” is, for the moment, to set the bar impossibly high. In any case, if we are going to allow our adversaries (or our friends) to frame the issue that way, we might as well close shop right now. Dembski, Behe, and Mayer have made it clear that, unlike Hugh Ross, they choose not to establish a complete system of though that reconciles design with Biblical revelation using scientific methods. If Darwinists want that kind of action, let them interact with Hugh Ross. What it all adds up to is this: ID scientists choose to be themselves, but others are asking them to be someone else. That will not work because only the scientist can integrate his own talents with his own passions. More importantly, ID scientists shouldn’t be playing by other people’s rules. He who frames the issue almost always wins the debate. In effect, Darwinists, (and, with the best of intentions, yourself) are reframing the issue away from the preliminary research questions that ID scientists are asking and toward advanced research questions that they are not yet prepared to confront. ID must crawl before it can walk. The real issue is that all its enemies are jumping on its back while it is crawling so that it will never be able to stand up and walk. That is the way I prefer to "frame" the issue.StephenB
December 29, 2008
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I'd like someone to consider the point I raised back in Post 3. Question: Using the principles of ID, can you disprove that we were created by the Flying Spaghetti Monster? Answer: No. Question: Does that mean ID is useless? Answer: No. ID is not able to determine the nature of the designer. Question: So, like, does that mean like we were designed by the Flying Spaghetti Monsters? I mean like, whoa? Answer: And the way to address questions such as that one is not through ID or any other form of methodological naturalism.tribune7
December 29, 2008
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Shi Hung-- from the provided link in Post 13:
Do not confuse evolution with theory of evolution. Evolution is fact while Darwinism, molecular clock, etc are merely theories of how evolution occurs. All these theories have numerous factual contradictions. My position is that there are other but yet to be discovered theory that would explain evolution facts better than all existing theories. My standard for such a theory is very high but is not higher than what is normally required for a true scientific theory, which is simply that it should not have a single factual contradiction within its domain of application or relevance. In mathematics or physics, one exception is sufficient to doom any theory. The science of biology or any scientific discipline for that matter should not be held to a lower standard. When one allows exceptions, one has effectively rendered the theory non-testable and non-scientific. Such a theory would be no different from a false theory that happens to explain a fraction of nature while being contradicted by the rest. The only way to distinguish a true theory from a false or incomplete one is to see if it has not a single factual exception within its domain of application or relevance.</blockquote That's excellent and deserves to be repeated here!!
tribune7
December 29, 2008
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Sorry, double-post (it didn't look like it went through the first time...)Atom
December 29, 2008
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It has become my conviction that the nature and identity of the designer(s) is a valid scientific question, as long as we limit ourselves to what can be inferred from the empirical data and can build hypotheses about the nature/identity that exclude some possibilities. (In other words, hypotheses that are specific.) However, this seems to be a fourth level question (from my reckoning) of the levels of questions ID asks. The way I see it, ID can be broken down into at least four major levels of research: 1) Design Detection - What are the empirical signs (if any) that distinguish intentional from non-intentional objects? Can We reliably detect design and how? (See Dembski's work on CSI, Behe on IC, etc) 2) Design Identification - For any given system, are these signs of design present and to what degree is design likely? This is experimental work which is basically applied design detection. (See Behe's EoE, Minnich's work on the BacFlag, Meyer's work on the Cambrian Explosion, etc) 3) Design Analysis - How was the design implemented for a designed object? What design principles were used? How was the system deployed? What is the function of a given system? This is also experimental and historical ID science. The explores the purpose and behavior of designed systems. (See Stanford's work on Genetic Entropy, ReMine's work on population genetics, Blyth's work on Natural Selection, Darwin's work on the same, etc) 4) Design Decoding (Message Theory) - Are there any messages contained in the design? Is there any signature information present? Does the system tell us anything about the identity of the designer(s) or what they are like? (See Walter ReMine's book on Message Theory, Paley's Natural Theology, lots of YEC literature, etc.) So, as I frame the areas of ID science, you can see that each level of research leads into the next; you need a firm foundation of areas 1-2 before you can do research into level 3, and 1-3 before you can ask questions about level 4. That being said, I think ID still has some work to do on levels 1-2 to get them rock solid and fill out some unresearched areas before we move on to level 4 questions. Sure, you're free to ask them, but since they depend on the data gathered on levels 1-3, we might be wiser to wait until we have better data. (What is the point ask asking the characteristics of a designer, if we don't know the purpose of a designed object, if we don't know if it is designed, if we don't know how to detect design?) AtomAtom
December 29, 2008
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Welcome Dr. Steve Fuller!Platonist
December 29, 2008
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I think this is a wonderful opportunity. Perhaps we can now begin to lay the foundations of a robust theory of intelligent design. One that can effectively compete with the Darwinian story.Platonist
December 29, 2008
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#19: Exactly. #20: And so the internal war begins.William J. Murray
December 29, 2008
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My G-d, someone at UD finally came right out and said it. Thought we would never see the day. Accommodationists—what you desire will never come to pass. You will never be taken seriously by the Big Science establishment because Darwinism is a belief system, linked to identity. You can play all sorts of semantic games about your intentions, a la Casey Luskin, but none of it will matter. They will never let you in the club; worse, in your eagerness to play nice with them you will forfeit the high ground you gain gratis through the self-evident nature of ID, which becomes more obvious with each passing day. IDers who claim to be agnostic—your position is as untenable as it is tedious. There is no intelligence in nature and no capacity for design. Those who think there can be are indulging in a sophisticated form of the pathetic fallacy. One thing Plato said that is undeniably true is “Nothing comes from nothing.” A complex organ represents a preexisting idea, a plan. To attempt to substitute vast periods of time for the required plan is to commit the same sin against logic and common sense as Lucretius. ID will continue to strike fire by allowing itself to be a sign of a transcendent realm of being and providing hope to countless hungry spirits who find themselves oppressed by the arrogant materialism of the age. Your allies will not be limited to scientists, but will include artists, writers, musicians, poets and philosophers. There is a yearning in the world for spiritual food. ID can help to feed that yearning and overturn the ugliness and emptiness of Nihilism. As for making a serious case for God: this can be done and needs to be done. Thanks to ID, philosophers can now return to the dictum that “God’s eternal qualities are seen in everything that has been made” and begin a reconstruction of signs and language as well as a measured, thorough dialogue on natural law. Beyond that, philosophers now have an opportunity to reimagine God and “the good” after Nihilism and the annihilation of Greek concepts of value. As for theodicy—extreme caution is needed. The temptation in the past has been to read design as a sign of intellect—to regard God as intellect in his essence and nature as a manifestation of intellectual being. This is a dead end in philosophy and should be studiously avoided. An argument that nature is in fact “very good” and not the monster that our quivering Darwinists make it out to be is needed, however, and becomes easier and easier to make as our knowledge of nature grows through basic research.allanius
December 29, 2008
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Steve Fuller,
After all, what good is a theory of ‘intelligent design’ if it has nothing to say about the nature of the designer?
I couldn't disagree with you more. Going down this road is a fool's choice. The answer to your question is simple: The nature of the Designer is not a scientific question. Forcing it into the conversation will eliminate ID from the debate. There is an old addage that you can't be all things to all people. There is also a strategic axiom that says to beware of the defended position, and not broaden your forces. These are cautionary tidbits from human experience. Before you saddle up your dinosaur, I strongly suggest you take these remnants of wisdom to heart.Upright BiPed
December 29, 2008
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The existence of god may be an implication of the evidence provided by ID, but if ID is of no meaningful use UNLESS it says something about "God", then it is of no meaningful use, IMO.William J. Murray
December 29, 2008
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Fuller says: "After all, what good is a theory of ‘intelligent design’ if it has nothing to say about the nature of the designer? " Uh .. it will make testable predictions and will lead to better working understandings of features of the universe and life than the non-foresighted, non-designed model? It will lead to an easier and faster understanding of phenomena, instead of trying to shoehorn everything into the non-foresighted model? The good is the empirical, objective results it can produce; what does any of that have to do with whether or not one believes in a god, or any particular god?William J. Murray
December 29, 2008
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sallyann You said: Stripped of its current scientific scaffolding does intelligent design become a 21st century social theory? Only asking Great implied point! Darwinism prospered prior to presentation of compelling scientific evidence. Clearly other things propelled it early on, e.g., the rise of secularism and Modern naturalism. Similarly, I think Design will prevail now, not because it enjoys scientific confirmation but because it fits nicely into new paradigms that happen to be ascendant, in part for other than scientific reasons. May I ask what new social theories you see (or foresee?). pmob1pmob1
December 29, 2008
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Since I plan to start posting on the 'science of God' stuff in the next couple of days, I will only address here the meta-point raised in comment 11. My intention is clearly not to start a religious war, and it will be a test of this blog whether it can sustain a civil tone. I don't see why not. In any case, ID has a real dialectical problem on its hands. Half the Darwinists believe that design in nature is illusory, but the other half believe there is design but no need for a designer to explain it. This means that as long as ID confines itself simply to showing examples of design in nature, it is not likely to make much headway. Half the Darwinists will question the design, and the other half will grant the design but find the need for a designer (and hence ID) superfluous. You can't win with those odds. The only real strategy available then is to theorize about the nature of the designer, however religiously and scientifically tricky that turns out to be. Luckily, this is not the first time people have done this sort of thing, and I hope to set a decent example of how one might proceed. However, I do expect that different conceptions of the designer would emerge. By the way, I am happy to save the atheist position for something like a pure Darwinist position: i.e. natural history as an intelligence-free zone.Steve Fuller
December 29, 2008
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Let me ask something of the regulars here, and even of Dr. Fuller himself. Can someone both believe in design - particularly grand design, on the order of 'our universe was created' - and still be an atheist? See, the 'pastafarian objection' strikes me as a red herring, and I don't think the point Fuller extracts from it - that to be meaningful, one must not only argue that nature is designed but also give us details about the designer - is present in the original schtick. If it can be reasonably argued that a mind, any kind of agency, is responsible for nature writ large.. then the atheist has lost across the board. 'Well, maybe the creator was the FSM!' is a meaningless quibble at that point, because establishing the justification of concluding the most basic creator is poison to the atheist position. Any creator with any attributes cannot historically be meshed with the atheist position. I say historically because that seems to be changing as of late.nullasalus
December 29, 2008
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I am a disinterested neutral observer and truth seeker and mainstream scientist working on epigenetics and genetics. I have openly voiced my criticism of all existing evolution theories, including NeoDarwinism and molecular clocks, mainly because they all take exceptions for granted, which effectively rendered them non-testable and non-scientific. I have recently wrote a critical review of the booklet by NAS on"Science, Evolution, and Creationism" at Amazon.com. I also posted there me email exchange with Dr. Francisco Ayala who headed the NAS panel that wrote the booklet. You can read them here: http://www.amazon.com/review/R8WB8ZQSOUVGC I charge that the NAS experts simply cannot make a truthful statement in the field of molecular evolution and that they have repeatedly made misleading statements that are part truth and part lie. I here invite all sides of the evolution debate to see if my point is valid and if so, to offer ideas on how to stop the spreading of lies to our children. Shi Huangshuangtheman
December 29, 2008
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I am relatively new here, and mainly read to get educated so my kids won't get "expelled" when they get older, but isn't this whole entire topic of whether or not the Designer is God referred to in the Rules section under Arguments Not To Use? I assumed this was because of the obvious issue of "Which Designer" to believe in could escalate into another religious war discussion. Could someone clear this confusion up for me?JackInhofe
December 29, 2008
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advancing scientific theories of God
Well, this will be interesting. I commend you for breaching the arbitrary and disingenuous wall maintained by many ID proponents. A couple of big and obvious challenges: 1. Methodology. I don't know enough about scientific method and philosophy of science to say much about this, but I'm looking forward to hearing how you hope to go about this. 2. An honest and valid scientific investigation of God would have to admit the possibility that God does not exist. Is God falsifiable? 3. A related issue: scientific theories of God encompass not only existence but also attributes. Once you set out to explore design-versus-evolution, how about using the same methods to resolve questions of religious doctrine and practice? How about the DNA of Jesus?pubdef
December 29, 2008
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"...stripped of its current scientific scaffolding, Darwinism is a 19th century social theory..." == If you're trying to make an argument about the scientific validity of evolutionary theory, why on earth would you consider it after it has been "stripped of its scientific scaffolding"? == "Stripped of its current scientific scaffolding does intelligent design become a 21st century social theory?" == I think most would argue that ID doesn't have any scientific scaffolding, and that it's actually a Bronze Age social theory.TheYellowShark
December 29, 2008
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What happens to gravity when it's stripped of its "current scientific scaffolding"?Earvin Johnson
December 29, 2008
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Can someone flesh out for me 1) what Dr. Fuller means when writes of "God’s bandwidth and God’s building blocks" and 2) what bandwith and building block explanations would be acceptable to opponents of ID?lpadron
December 29, 2008
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Ipadron, Yes. I hope so. In the end we can never know if God will keep His promises; but we can know if He has kept them in the past. Tribune7 It seems to me that a lot of people buy the ID=creationism argument so easily because the nature of the designer is not addressed enough. I don't know how it could be done without favoring one religion over another. Maybe by making only those statements about the Designer that can be very well founded on empirical results, while remaining (professionally) agnostic about the rest of His characteristics.Collin
December 29, 2008
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