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Are Darwinian claims for evolution consistent with the 2nd law of thermodynamics?

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A friend wrote to ask because he came across a 2001 paper, Entropy and Self-Organization in Multi-Agent Systems by H. Van Dyke Parunak and Sven Brueckner Proceedings of the International Conference on Autonomous Agents (Agents 2001), 124-130:

Emergent self-organization in multi-agent systems appears to contradict the second law of thermodynamics. This paradox has been explained in terms of a coupling between the macro level that hosts self-organization (and an apparent reduction in entropy), and the micro level (where random processes greatly increase entropy). Metaphorically, the micro level serves as an entropy “sink,” permitting overall system entropy to increase while sequestering this increase from the interactions where selforganization is desired. We make this metaphor precise by constructing a simple example of pheromone-based coordination, defining a way to measure the Shannon entropy at the macro (agent) and micro (pheromone) levels, and exhibiting an entropybased view of the coordination.

The thought seems to be that entropy decreases here but somehow increases somewhere where we can’t see it.

I’ve (O’Leary for News) always thought that a fishy explanation, especially because I soon discovered that even raising the question is considered presumptive evidence of unsound loyalties. The sort I am long accustomed to hearing from authoritarians covering up a scandal.

So not only do I not believe it, but after that sort of experience I get the sense I shouldn’t believe it. Depending on where I am working, I might need to parrot it to keep my job, of course, but it would be best not to actually believe it.

Dr Sheldon
Rob Sheldon

Rob Sheldon told us both,

What you read is the “standard” physics response. It is misleading on many levels.

a) Physicists really, really can’t explain what goes on in biology. Neither their definition of entropy, nor their definition of information (Shannon, etc) work. Rather than admit that they don’t know what is going on, they simply extrapolate what they do know (ideal gasses) to biology and make pronouncements.

b) While it is true that “open” systems may allow energy and matter to flow through them, which would change the information in the system, this does not nor cannot explain biology. The best treatment of this is Granville Sewell’s articles on different types of entropy. Truly excellent. It explains why sunlight does not carry enough information to create life out of precursor molecules. And people who claim this are either: (i) deluded that physics entropy = biology entropy, or (ii) equivocating on the use of the word “entropy”, or (iii) unable to handle basic math, or most likely, (iv) all the above.

c) This paper suggests that the cell has machinery for converting sunlight to information–e.g. photosynthesis. While true, this machine must be even more complicated than the carbohydrates it produces. Ditto for self-replicating machinery, etc. So if we permit some high level of information to enter the system, then low-level information can be created from energy sources. This argument really is indistinguishable from ID, though they may not realize it.

In conclusion, the violation of the 2nd Law remains true for biology, and there still is no good physics explanation for it.

It’s a good thing they didn’t realize it. They won’t have to issue some embarrassing repudiation of their work.

And I don’t have to believe something for which we have no evidence just to protect the tenurebots’ theory.

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Comments
Timaeus: Sewell is arguing not from the standard “energy” notion of the second law, but from what he believes to be a deeper principle that underlies the second law. Then it's not the 2nd law of thermodynamics.Zachriel
March 4, 2015
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T, the underlying issue is origin of FSCO/I- rich energy conversion devices that carry forward the onward work of coupling energy sources to create entities of interest. The spontaneous origin of such on raw inflow of energy is maximally implausible. And, the reasoning, on needle in haystack search challenges for clusters of special configs in the abstract space of possibilities, is close to that which grounds the statistical form of the Second Law. As has been drawn out since Thaxton et al in TMLO in the early-mid 1980's. I outline and point onwards in 9 above. KFkairosfocus
March 4, 2015
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Box: Simple logic. So you're claiming development requires an injection of information, something not in the original cells. If so, whence the energy? You do realize that we have quite a bit of knowledge about how development occurs? The developmental pattern in plants can be manipulated with growth regulators (e.g. auxin or gibberellin), and these growth regulators are naturally modulated by environmental conditions. For instance, phytochrome in the presence of light causes expression of meristem genes. Hence, cell differentiation requires nothing that is not already present in the genome other than exposure to a suitable environment. Box: Entangled particles are influenced by some force which is at the moment entirely unmeasurable There's no work involved, and it doesn't violate the 2nd law of thermodynamics.Zachriel
March 4, 2015
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I agree with those who say that the second law of thermodynamics -- as that law has traditionally been presented in science classes, i.e., as a rule governing the flow of heat or energy generally -- does not in itself contradict the idea of evolution. The earth is not a closed system. The sun inputs immense amounts of energy into the system. However, as Gordon Davisson pointed out, Sewell's argument is more subtle than that. Sewell is arguing not from the standard "energy" notion of the second law, but from what he believes to be a deeper principle that underlies the second law. One might have argued in 1860 that the principles of the USA, interpreted narrowly, allowed for slavery, since the States had constitutional rights to run their own affairs. But against that, one might argue that lying beneath that "freedom" of the States from authoritarian federal tyranny is a deeper principle, i.e., that no government has the right to take away the freedom of a human being. Thus, the very "freedom" for which the southern States fought was grounded in a deeper principle -- and slavery was incompatible with that deeper principle, even if it did not appear to conflict with the principle of "States rights." So it *might* be the case that not the second law of thermodynamics, but some deeper and broader law of which the Second Law is only a limited expression, is incompatible with Darwinian evolution. Gordon Davisson recognizes this. Not everyone who has bashed Sewell has read Sewell as carefully as Gordon has.Timaeus
March 4, 2015
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Zach,
Zach: Energy is required. What do you mean that ‘information’ must be provided? How is ‘information’ being injected into a daisy as it grows?
When a daisy consists of, let's say, only 16 undifferentiated identical cells, then these cells needs information about what to do next. This information cannot be present in the cells because they are all the same and each individual cell lacks overview and authority to direct operations. So, their has to be another source of information which directs the growing process. Simple logic.
Zach: That suggests you aren’t making a scientific claim.
Entangled particles are influenced by some force which is currently entirely unmeasurable; it seems to be beyond space and time. Is quantum physics making "not a scientific claim" when it is stated that such a force nevertheless exists?Box
March 4, 2015
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harry: There appear to be many bodies in our solar system that get plenty of sunshine and remain lifeless. It must not be as simple as that. The 2nd law of thermodynamics is a limitative law. It doesn't explain life, however, it doesn't act as a barrier either.Zachriel
March 4, 2015
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Box: Life persists only as long as information is provided for work to be done. Energy is required. What do you mean that 'information' must be provided? How is 'information' being injected into a daisy as it grows? Box: If the blunt instruments available to science cannot measure it, so much the worse for the present state of science. That suggests you aren't making a scientific claim.Zachriel
March 4, 2015
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Zach: Life persists only as long as energy is provided for work to be done. Cut off the energy, and life winds down like all processes.
Life persists only as long as information is provided for work to be done. Cut off the information, and life winds down like all processes. As clear as day there is - in each organism - an unifying power that keeps numerous parts in functional submission for exactly a lifetime. If the blunt instruments available to science cannot measure it, so much the worse for the present state of science.Box
March 4, 2015
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If the natural Universe is a closed system then sustaining decreasing entropy indefinitely is impossible. In spite of any local, temporary decreases in entropy that might occur, matter in the Universe, on the whole, inexorably disintegrates into a more likely, disordered state. For each instance of a local, temporary decrease in entropy, its instantiation was only allowed by a greater increase in entropy overall. Furthermore, without some mechanism to harness available energy constructively, when it is expended it only further increases entropy. Absent such a mechanism, a release of energy tends to disintegrate an assemblage of matter, not further integrate and order the given assemblage. This is why tornados destroy buildings rather than remodel them. The reason I point this out is that mentioning that the second law of thermodynamics presents a problem for any theory of the mindless, accidental development of life, is often immediately countered with a flippant, dismissive assertion such as: "Of course life in its complexity would run counter to the second law of thermodynamics if it were operating in a closed system. But it's not, it's in an open system in which the sun's energy runs down as life's complexity runs 'up-hill'." There appear to be many bodies in our solar system that get plenty of sunshine and remain lifeless. It must not be as simple as that. A few more things are required for life to get started, one of which is a mechanism provided by the material environment to constructively harness available energy. Assuming for the moment that it is even possible for digital-information-based nanotechnology to come about mindlessly -- a patently absurd notion -- the question then becomes, how did the very unlikely environment that would be required for that to happen itself come about mindlessly and accidentally? Something far more likely to get slopped together accidentally than the digital-information-based nanotechnology of life, would be something consisting of really crude technology in comparison to that of life, like robotic equipment. It would be far easier to explain how robotic equipment might come about accidentally than it will be to plausibly explain how life came about mindlessly and accidentally. The requirement that the accidentally arrived at robotic equipment also be self-replicating could even be ignored. Maybe atheistic science should figure out how robotic equipment might come about accidentally first, and from the experience gained from that exercise, tackle the problem the mindless, accidental origin of life presents them with. In the meantime, true science that has remained relentlessly objective, not allowing the religious/philosophical implications of its discoveries to disturb its cold rationality, will follow the evidence wherever it leads, even if that path continues to provide overwhelming evidence that there must be a non-material reality -- an intellect -- that preexisted and was responsible for the Universe and the life within it.harry
March 4, 2015
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"Chartsil your response on Nde’s is incredibly ridiculous and shows that you are disingenuous about dealing with the evidence ." I want them to have knowledge they couldn't have had otherwise. That seems pretty reasonable to me "This is me ::this is compelling evidence that conscious awareness can happen without a functioning brain." Let me guess, there were some people in masks dressed in white, a linoleum floor, a tray of surgical instruments. I must have had an NDE to have all that persuasive knowledge. "Most normal people can see the disconnect from reality and rational thinking , but you probably don’t and this is why we shouldn’t hold it against you, it’s just the way you think." >Coming from the guy that thinks someone having knowledge of the goings on of an OR is evidence of the supernatural. Psychological projection is a psychological defense mechanism where a person subconsciously denies his or her own attributes, thoughts, and emotions, which are then ascribed to the outside world, usually to other people. Thus, projection involves imagining or projecting the belief that others originate those feelings.CHartsil
March 4, 2015
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Box: “Override” is a better choice of words. Life is a good example, it overrides the second law’s overall effect to drive everything in the universe towards disorder. Changing the word doesn't change the heat law. Life persists only as long as energy is provided for work to be done. Cut off the energy, and life winds down like all processes.Zachriel
March 4, 2015
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F/N: Given the relevant scope of configuration spaces and the known randomising effects of diffusion and the like, raw energy is not a good explanation of functionally specific complex organisation and associated information. Information in the relevant sense is best understood as constrained configurations of contingent elements where the configuration can be used to convey or store data, control messages and the like. Note, the info is tied to the configuration and to the onward linked rules that give meaning. KFkairosfocus
March 4, 2015
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Chartsil your response on Nde's is incredibly ridiculous and shows that you are disingenuous about dealing with the evidence . What the man experiences can't be explained away as coincidence or so etching coming from the brain. This is your way of moving the goalposts back and shows me that your atheistic beliefs are emotional and not truly intellectual , but then again we both knew this ;) I think its high time that u think about joining one of the new atheist mega churches that have been opening up. This is me ::this is compelling evidence that conscious awareness can happen without a functioning brain. Chartsil:: but this is clearly false because this guy did not bring back information about next weeks winning lotto pick lol Most normal people can see the disconnect from reality and rational thinking , but you probably don't and this is why we shouldn't hold it against you, it's just the way you think.wallstreeter43
March 4, 2015
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Zach: There are no known processes that violate the 2nd law of thermodynamics.
"Override" is a better choice of words. Life is a good example, it overrides the second law’s overall effect to drive everything in the universe towards disorder.
Zachriel: By the way, you never answered. What is the origin of the requisite energy to rearrange matter to create organisms?
I would say that its origin is positioned in the same realm as the origin of the universe itself.Box
March 4, 2015
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"Chartsil I believe that almost all csi comes from a mind as our experience as human beings has shown, but I found one rare exception ." It being specified is what you're trying to demonstrate. Just saying that it's specified is circular logic and question begging. "Also Chartsil why did u run away from the evidence for the afterlife ?" Run? I asked for a very specific set of evidences from NDEs and none were given. >A man has an NDE during surgery and comes back 'able to describe' the operating room. No >A man has an NDE during surgery and comes back with a prediction of a natural disaster right down to the date and time. YesCHartsil
March 4, 2015
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Chartsil I believe that almost all csi comes from a mind as our experience as human beings has shown, but I found one rare exception . Actually it's super rare. I found that this extremely rare message is an example of a message that couldn't possibly come from a mind therefore I believe it arose by blind chance and chemical interactions. """Atheism is an intellectual worldview and not an emotional one so na an an on you "" Also Chartsil why did u run away from the evidence for the afterlife ? I understand , if I was an atheist it would also make me run away from it as well ;) I wish more people were aware of aware ;) Diogenes where for art thou of Diogenes . ::crickets::wallstreeter43
March 4, 2015
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Definition Deficit Disorder Definition Deficit Disorder (“DDD”), also known as the “me no speaka the English distraction” and “definition derby” is a form of sophistry by obfuscation that demands that one’s opponent fulfil unreasonable or even impossible definitional criteria, not to advance the debate but to avoid the debate by claiming one’s opponent cannot adequately define their terms. An example: ID advocate: Intelligent design theory asserts chance causes cannot account for the generation of novel macroevolutionary features and that the best explanation for complex, functionally specified information beyond a reasonable chance threshold is the “artifact of an intelligent agent. ID opponent: What do you mean by the terms “intelligent,” “design,” “chance,” “complex,” “functional,” “specified” and “information.” These terms are so vague as to render your argument meaningless. One can be certain that DDD is being employed when a person involved in a debate displays a convenient lapse of understanding of even the most common terms. In extreme cases ID opponents have even claimed that a term they themselves injected into the debate has no clear meaning.Silver Asiatic
March 4, 2015
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"Information – including the information in every post on this forum – cannot be produced by blind processes." Define informationCHartsil
March 4, 2015
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By the way, you never answered. What is the origin of the requisite energy to rearrange matter to create organisms?Zachriel
March 4, 2015
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Box: The origin of the information is a entirely different story. There are no known processes that violate the 2nd law of thermodynamics.Zachriel
March 4, 2015
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Zach,
Zach: If you think the manufacture of refrigerators violates the 2nd law of thermodynamics, then you are sorely mistaken.
Does the manufacture also include the design process? If so, see below.
Zach: The energy to power your body come from food sources that derive their energy from the sun.
Likely, but irrelevant. The origin of the information is a entirely different story. Surely you are sorely mistaken if you think that the origin is the sun. Information - including the information in every post on this forum - cannot be produced by blind processes.Box
March 4, 2015
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Box: Hahaha. Good joke! Not an argument. If you think the manufacture of refrigerators violates the 2nd law of thermodynamics, then you are sorely mistaken. No known process violates the 2nd law of thermodynamics, no matter how smart the engineer. Box: I am also referring to living organisms and their creation. The energy to power your body come from food sources that derive their energy from the sun. From the time you strike the key through its transmission across the internet, the energy comes from electrical product with multiple possible origins. But every step of the process is consistent with the 2nd law of thermodynamics. No known process violates the 2nd law of thermodynamics, no matter how smart the engineer.Zachriel
March 4, 2015
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Zachriel: Yes, it’s called energy and work.
Hahaha. Good joke!
Zachriel: Are you claiming that the intelligence somehow rearranges matter to inject ‘information’?
Box: Yup. Consider any post on this forum.
Zachriel: We were referring to living organisms and their creation.
I am also referring to living organisms and their creation.Box
March 4, 2015
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Box: You must think that you have an explanation for the decrease of entropy by the appearance of refrigerators, humans, cars, high-speed computers, libraries full of science texts and encyclopedias, TV sets, airplanes and spaceships. Yes, it's called energy and work. Zachriel: Are you claiming that the intelligence somehow rearranges matter to inject ‘information’? If so, there is cost measured in work. What is the origin of the requisite energy? Box: Yup. Consider any post on this forum. We were referring to living organisms and their creation. What is the origin of the requisite energy to rearrange matter?Zachriel
March 4, 2015
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My $0,02 cents for this very important discussion: Journal of Theoretical Biology Volume 359, 21 October 2014, Pages 192–198 Two faces of entropy and information in biological systems Yuriy Mitrokhin Highlights • Thermodynamic and information entropy are considered as two forms of total entropic process in biosystems. • The origination of complexity cannot be compensated only by thermodynamic entropy. • When and where in the past the entropy has been produced that is a payment for biological organization at present? • The idea is discussed that the genetic information is an instrument of entropy disproportioning in time. • The Second Low realization today cannot be without taking into account the information entropy in past generations. Abstract The article attempts to overcome the well-known paradox of contradictions between the emerging biological organization and entropy production in biological systems. It is assumed that quality, speculative correlation between entropy and antientropy processes taking place both in the past and today in the metabolic and genetic cellular systems may be perfectly authorized for adequate description of the evolution of biological organization. So far as thermodynamic entropy itself cannot compensate for the high degree of organization which exists in the cell, we discuss the mode of conjunction of positive entropy events (mutations) in the genetic systems of the past generations and the formation of organized structures of current cells. We argue that only the information which is generated in the conditions of the information entropy production (mutations and other genome reorganization) in genetic systems of the past generations provides the physical conjunction of entropy and antientropy processes separated from each other in time generations. It is readily apparent from the requirements of the Second law of thermodynamics. Keywords Information entropy; Generating of new information; Disproportionation of entropy; Unsteadiness in genetic systems; Compensation for antientropic processes http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022519314003610Enezio E. De Almeida Filho
March 4, 2015
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Zach: We were referring to the workings of a refrigerator,
That’s fine, but utterly irrelevant to the discussion.
Zach: though the manufacture of refrigerators are completely in accord with the 2nd law of thermodynamics.
A bold statement. You must think that you have an explanation for the decrease of entropy by the appearance of refrigerators, humans, cars, high-speed computers, libraries full of science texts and encyclopedias, TV sets, airplanes and spaceships.
Zach: In addition, there are many cooling mechanisms in the natural world.
Irrelevant.
Zach: In any case, adding intelligence, as in Intelligent Design, does not allow one to violate the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics.
Indeed, because the information enters from the outside, like I said.
Zach: Are you claiming that the intelligence somehow rearranges matter to inject ‘information’?
Yup. Consider any post on this forum. You seem to disagree, state your case.Box
March 4, 2015
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Crap man, AIG doesn't even use the SLoT argument anymore. In fact, they advise against it. So basically, you're lagging behind Ken Ham's understanding of science.CHartsil
March 4, 2015
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Box: So electrical energy brings a refrigerator into existence? You do realize the 2nd law of thermodynamics came about because engineers discovered limits to how efficient they could make a heat engine — no matter how smart the engineer? That discovery includes manufacturing and operating refrigerators.Zachriel
March 4, 2015
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Box: So electrical energy brings a refrigerator into existence? We were referring to the workings of a refrigerator, though the manufacture of refrigerators are completely in accord with the 2nd law of thermodynamics. In addition, there are many cooling mechanisms in the natural world. In any case, adding intelligence, as in Intelligent Design, does not allow one to violate the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics. Are you claiming that the intelligence somehow rearranges matter to inject ‘information’? If so, there is cost measured in work. What is the origin of the requisite energy?Zachriel
March 4, 2015
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Zachriel,
Zach: With a refrigerator, it’s not ‘information’ that enters, but electrical energy.
So electrical energy brings a refrigerator into existence? Oh, aha, you are simply assuming the existence of a refrigerator. I thought you were trying to make a case for the idea that the coming into existence of a refrigerator - by e.g. a tornado - doesn't violate the second law ....
Zachriel: Are you claiming that the intelligence somehow rearranges matter to “inject information”?
Yup. Consider any post on this forum.Box
March 4, 2015
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