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Civil Discourse Not Tolerated by Darwinist

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Jason Rosenhouse has written a blog about Michael Ruse and William Dembski. His complaint against Ruse, among other things, is that Ruse is too cordial, too civil with ID supporters, Dembski especially.

And while I may dislike and disagree with Ruse’s thinking, it is his actions over the last several years that I loathe and detest. I hate the way he has been doing everything in his power to prop up the ID folks. I hate that he persuaded a presitgious university press to publish a book co-edited by William Dembski, which featured four essays defending “Darwinism” that seemed tailor made to make evolution look bad. I hate that he contributes essays to anthologies designed to celebrate ID promoters and that he tells debate audiences that Dembski has made valuable contributions to science. Go here for relevant links and further details.

Rosenhouse hates quite a lot. What Rosenhouse also finds intolerable is that Ruse would even entertain the idea that an atheist Darwinist like Ruse gives any credence whatsoever to the proposition that religion is not the world’s greatest evil:

Michael Ruse has a very bad op-ed in The Guardian. Jerry Coyne and P. Z. Myers have already laid into him (here and here respectively), but why should they have all the fun? Ruse writes:

If you mean someone who agrees that logically there could be a god, but who doesn’t think that the logical possibility is terribly likely, or at least not something that should keep us awake at night, then I guess a lot of us are atheists. But there is certainly a split, a schism, in our ranks. I am not whining (in fact I am rather proud) when I point out that a rather loud group of my fellow atheists, generally today known as the “new atheists”, loathe and detest my thinking.

Amateur hour.

If the new atheists (folks like Richard Dawkins and Daniel Dennett) are making the party line, Rosenhouse is just towing it like a pack mule. But be forewarned, all you young lurkers, because Rosenhouse can’t tolerate nine year old’s either:

A while back I was a counselor at a summer camp, keeping an eye on a group of rowdy nine year olds. One of the kids was taunted relentlessly by the others for his incessant whining. He did not help his cause by answering such taunts with, “I don’t whine!” said in a pathetically whiny tone of voice.

If you have to tell people you are not whining, you’re whining.

Rosenhouse would, not doubt, maintain that he himself is not whining.

Ruse writes:

Second, unlike the new atheists, I take scholarship seriously. I have written that The God Delusion made me ashamed to be an atheist and I meant it. Trying to understand how God could need no cause, Christians claim that God exists necessarily. I have taken the effort to try to understand what that means. Dawkins and company are ignorant of such claims and positively contemptuous of those who even try to understand them, let alone believe them. Thus, like a first-year undergraduate, he can happily go around asking loudly, “What caused God?” as though he had made some momentous philosophical discovery.

Indeed, it is an uneducated question that Ruse is right to point out. It is based on the assumption that everything, even supernatural things, need a first cause. Natural things do need a first cause, but I don’t see how we could logically apply natural rules to supernatural things. Yet Dawkins is so steeped in materialism, that I presume he smuggles in material necessities, such as the necessary first cause argument, even when thinking about the immaterial and supernatural. I appreciate that Ruse is trying to understand the argument, while the new atheists and Rosenhouse don’t seem to be, or maybe they are just too dense to understand, or too lost to care, or both.

The rest of his blog is much of the same kind of argument. I would say it’s childish, but that would be an offense to children, for children, in their innocence, have more of a sense of fairness and respect for their fellows than Rosenhouse has. Praise for Michael Ruse for having intellectual integrity instead of a rabid dog in the fight. The response that Rosenhouse has is, I suspect, the result of a poor education.

“Education without values, as useful as it is, seems rather to make man a more clever devil.”

~C.S. Lewis

Although, I have to admit, Rosenhouse is not even clever.

Comments
oops, quote function didn't work.avocationist
November 4, 2009
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@8, It never continues to amaze me that atheists think a first cause is such a big problem for God but not for matter. Exactly so! In my opinion, even the existence of one molecule is proof of the existence of something very like God. Because if you look only materially, you can realize that all things as we know them require a cause. We cannot have a situation of true nothingness, giving rise to anything at all. Just ain't gonna happen. So they say that matter "just is." Well, that imputes to matter some pretty strange properties - that of endless existence, that of requiring no cause. That of being self-existent and not dependent upon anything. There's no other choice. Anything which exists by its very nature and has no prior cause, being therefore the source of existence, is by definition, God. So anyway, either the atheists have not thought very deeply, or they believe that matter has some very, very strange properties that are mind-boggling and mystical.avocationist
November 4, 2009
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Thank you for that clarification, Clive.Allen_MacNeill
November 4, 2009
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Allen_MacNeill,
Let me ask once again, is this thread somehow intended to show that evolutionary biologists in general are intolerant of civil discourse?
No, I have already answered that question. Like I said, a Darwinist, the subject of my post, was the subject of the post.Clive Hayden
November 4, 2009
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Leslie (#3) correctly pointed out that " It’s particularly interesting seeing as Darwinists like to compare ID to Astrology." I hope you all know you have Michael Behe to thank for that. In the 2005 Dover trial, this infamous exchange took place: "Q But you are clear, under your definition, the definition that sweeps in intelligent design, astrology is also a scientific theory, correct? A Yes, that's correct." - http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/dover/day11pm.html This unfortunate comparison has provided endless delight for the anti-ID crowd.PaulBurnett
November 4, 2009
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It never continues to amaze me that atheists think a first cause is such a big problem for God but not for matter.tragic mishap
November 4, 2009
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Having witnessed discussions by Darwinists on the internet, I have seen few if any civil discourse by them relative to ID. The exceptions are those sites where the moderator maintains a respect for ID. I bet a fly on the wall at a departmental meeting of evolutionary biologists would have some revealing comments on what they actually say and believe when no one is available to observe or record. For example, try Panda's Thumb which I believe once was described as the best or one of the best science sites on the internet.jerry
November 4, 2009
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Let them pour in. Anecdotal evidence remains just that: anecdotal. Let me ask once again, is this thread somehow intended to show that evolutionary biologists in general are intolerant of civil discourse? If so, at what level would one accept this hypothesis? And if not (if, as you seem to imply, the intent in this thread is to show that Jason Rosenhouse is intolerant of civil discourse, what precisely is your point in doing so? Do you expect anyone reading this thread to mistake this kind of argument for something resembling rationality or, for that matter, civil discourse?Allen_MacNeill
November 4, 2009
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Allen_MacNeill, The title is Civil Discourse Not Tolerated by Darwinist, singular, not Darwinists, plural. But this is the fourth blog I've written in as many weeks about censorship and an attack on civil discourse originating with Darwinists. It is anecdotal, and the anecdotes keep pouring in.Clive Hayden
November 4, 2009
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In other news, dog bites man. Is this thread somehow intended to show that evolutionary biologists in general are intolerant of civil discourse? If so, at what level would one accept this hypothesis? When one has shown, via empirical observation, that greater than 95% (i.e. alpha < 0.05) of evolutionary biologists are intolerant of civil discourse? How is this "observation" not simply an example of anecdotal evidence?Allen_MacNeill
November 4, 2009
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Todd, that's a very interesting point. Figure out the alignment, and you'll figure out everything else. It's particularly interesting seeing as Darwinists like to compare ID to Astrology.Leslie
November 4, 2009
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He is an example of someone who might not have free will and can be the result of molecules hitting other molecules and thus “determined.” This phenomena seems to prevalent in a certain class of our society
Just like astrology! Alignment of molecules, alignment of stars - the difference is only a matter of scale.todd
November 4, 2009
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"Although, I have to admit, Mr. Rosenhouse is not even clever." He is also fairly stupid. I know he has a PhD in mathematics but he failed to understand the implications of Behe's Edge of Evolution and on his blog mocked him because of his short sidedness. So he seems to be a creature of impulses. Rosenhouse is an ideologue whose thinking is driven by his internal convictions which may not be anything he can do about. He is an example of someone who might not have free will and can be the result of molecules hitting other molecules and thus "determined." This phenomena seems to prevalent in a certain class of our society.jerry
November 4, 2009
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