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Darwin’s finches not a good example of Darwinian evolution?

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Yes, we are discussing the icon of Darwinism that you heard about at school. They interbreed so much, it is hard to know how much they are separate species. From the BBC

The most extensive genetic study ever conducted of Darwin’s finches, from the Galapagos Islands, has revealed a messy family tree with a surprising level of interbreeding between species.

It also suggests that changes in one particular gene triggered the wide variation seen in their beak shapes.

The study also revealed a surprisingly large amount of “gene flow” between the branches of the family.

This indicates that the species have continued to interbreed or hybridise, after diversifying when they first arrived on the islands.

“It’s been observed that the species of Darwin’s finches sometimes hybridise – Peter and Rosemary Grant have seen that during their fieldwork,” Prof Andersson told the BBC.

“But it’s difficult to say what the long-term evolutionary significance of that is. What does it contribute?”

What it contributes is that one would be hard pressed to show that there is any evolution going on, in the face of this much hybridization. A friend sends along a key point from the Discussion of the paywalled Nature paper:

Evidence of introgressive hybridization, which has been documented as a contemporary process, is found throughout the radiation. Hybridization has given rise to species of mixed ancestry, in the past (this study) and the present [30]. It has influenced the evolution of a key phenotypic trait: beak shape. Similar introgressive hybridization affecting an adaptive trait (mimicry) has been described in Heliconius butterflies [32]. The degree of continuity between historical and contemporary evolution is unexpected because introgressive hybridization plays no part in traditional accounts of adaptive radiations of animals [1, 2]. For young radiations it complements the better-known role of natural selection.

In short, Darwin’s finches are not a very good schoolbook illustration of the neo-Darwinian synthesis (Darwinism). How does one sort out what is Darwinism (natural selection acting on random mutation) and what is hybridization? Here’s the abstract:

Darwin’s finches, inhabiting the Galápagos archipelago and Cocos Island, constitute an iconic model for studies of speciation and adaptive evolution. Here we report the results of whole-genome re-sequencing of 120 individuals representing all of the Darwin’s finch species and two close relatives. Phylogenetic analysis reveals important discrepancies with the phenotype-based taxonomy. We find extensive evidence for interspecific gene flow throughout the radiation. Hybridization has given rise to species of mixed ancestry. A 240 kilobase haplotype encompassing the ALX1 gene that encodes a transcription factor affecting craniofacial development is strongly associated with beak shape diversity across Darwin’s finch species as well as within the medium ground finch (Geospiza fortis), a species that has undergone rapid evolution of beak shape in response to environmental changes. The ALX1 haplotype has contributed to diversification of beak shapes among the Darwin’s finches and, thereby, to an expanded utilization of food resources. (paywall)

But we will probably see the finches in the schoolbooks anyway, because Darwin’s name is, like, a brand. There is Darwin Day, there isn’t Hybrid Day.

It’s a brand  lots of people have invested lots of time and money in. They won’t let that go to waste. Let the spin begin!

Follow UD News at Twitter! This is what they used to think and may well continue to say:

Comments
Zachriel is just a grand equivocator. and obfuscator. Zachriel doesn't understand what is being debated nor does it care. Pathetic, really.Joe
February 13, 2015
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Hey Zac, first of all you are mistaking me for BA77 again. This is the first time I've commented in the thread. anyway I think it's high time that we abandon the old Darwinian canard that "Species" is defined as a population in relative reproductive isolation. And return to the older universal concept of Species as the equivalent of the Platonic Forms or Biblical Kinds. I'm not sure why this understanding was abandoned by science in the first place unless it was to facilitate the theory that one species could somehow morph into another. If we define species as Form or Kind the irrationality of one fuzzy edged species bleeding into other species becomes obvious. It's as silly as the idea of a triangle evolving into a square by RM/NS. In fact when we look at nature what we see is individual organisms that reflect immaterial objective Forms by varying extents. That is the phenomena that needs to be explained. Darwin dodged the issue all together by redefining terms. peacefifthmonarchyman
February 13, 2015
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Mapou: In the theory of evolution, does a Zulu from Africa belong to the same species as a Mayan from Central America or a white Norwegian? Not only the same species, but the same subspecies. Humans do not maintain reproductive isolation. There has always been substantial gene flow through the human population, with geographic isolation being only relatively recent, incomplete, and ultimately temporary. Mapou: I’m asking because it seems to me that the ‘species’ label is used rather loosely when it comes to birds and the size of their beaks. It’s rather confusing. But then again, maybe it is meant to be. The species boundary can be somewhat ambiguous, but Darwin's finches tend to maintain distinct boundaries even though they co-inhabit the same geographic area; hence, they are considered separate species. fifthmonarchyman: “It’s been observed that the species of Darwin’s finches sometimes hybridise – Peter and Rosemary Grant have seen that during their fieldwork,” Prof Andersson told the BBC. And duck species hybridize quite often. Are you saying there is only one species of duck? If so, then you are in disagreement with generations of ornithologists. Mahuna: Isn’t the definition of “species” 2 living things that CANNOT mate and produce viable offspring? That is not correct. There are various definitions, chosen for their utility, but the basic concept is that there is sufficient isolation that they maintain their distinctive characteristics. mahuna: But then Darwin had no idea what “species” meant. He insisted there was only 1 specie of pigeon (there are more than 300) Darwin asserted, based on that domestic pigeons descended from a single wild species, Columba livia, not that there was only one species of pigeon. As for dogs, Darwin did think, due to their vast variation, that they probably descended from more than one wild species. This question was left unresolved until modern genetics which show that dogs are monophyletic, a close relative of the gray wolf. See Darwin, "Origin of Species", Chapter 1: Variation Under Domestication, 1859.Zachriel
February 13, 2015
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Rosemary Grant says “Divergence in morphology through the tracking of environmental change by natural selection”.
Yet she doesn't have any idea if natural selection didit or not. If Dr. Spetner is right then it would be "Divergence in morphology through the tracking of environmental change by built-in responses to environmental cues"- he discusses the evidence for this wrt the finches in "The Evolution Revolution". Darwinian and neo-Darwinian require all genetic change to be happenstance, ie undirected/ not planned/ mistakes/ errors/ accidents. And for anyone interested that is one of the basic points of the debate- is all genetic change really accidental? Evolutionists just baldly declare that it is cuz they can't figure out any way it could be otherwise.Joe
February 12, 2015
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This is exactly what one would expect if evolution is true. Yet another confirmation of the theory.Mung
February 12, 2015
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How does one sort out what is Darwinism (natural selection acting on random mutation) and what is hybridization? What do you think there is to sort out? Natural selection can act on random mutation, no matter what path they take to end up in given body. Isn’t the definition of “species” 2 living things that CANNOT mate and produce viable offspring? No. (Not that it matters to anything today, but do you have a reference for Darwin's claims about dog and pigeon species?)wd400
February 12, 2015
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Isn't the definition of "species" 2 living things that CANNOT mate and produce viable offspring? That is, horses bred with donkeys can produce mules, but mules are sterile. If the finches can mate and produce fertile offspring, they're just breeds, like dogs or horses. And exotic breeds of successful animals (and plants) occur all the time. But then Darwin had no idea what "species" meant. He insisted there was only 1 specie of pigeon (there are more than 300), while insisting there were 3 species of domestic dogs (there is only 1).mahuna
February 12, 2015
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Really Zach, on the thread that underscored the Grant's main point of interbreeding? “It’s been observed that the species of Darwin’s finches sometimes hybridise – Peter and Rosemary Grant have seen that during their fieldwork,” Prof Andersson told the BBC. Your timing is impeccable Zach. Keep up the good work. You are a far greater asset for ID than you could possibly realize! :)bornagain77
February 12, 2015
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Dimijian cites the classic icon of evolution, the Galápagos finches, stating: "There is no contender for causation other than natural selection." But no Darwin-critic has ever stated otherwise.
Casey Luskin May 2, 2012 http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/05/darwin-doubting059241.htmlrhampton7
February 12, 2015
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In the theory of evolution, does a Zulu from Africa belong to the same species as a Mayan from Central America or a white Norwegian? I'm asking because it seems to me that the 'species' label is used rather loosely when it comes to birds and the size of their beaks. It's rather confusing. But then again, maybe it is meant to be.Mapou
February 12, 2015
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REC, grab any US High School intro biology text and go to the evolution chapter. There will be finch beaks - 100% guarantee. And it will be the dogma, no EpiGenetics or Hybridization. That beak stuff will be popping up in college college textbooks, latest editionsppolish
February 12, 2015
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bornagain77: The Grants (who studied Darwin’s finches) made a long presentation at Stanford in 2009 on their work. It is available for all to see on the internet. In it they give the game away. All the so called Darwin finches can inner breed. Doesn’t happen much but it does happen and they have viable offspring that reproduce. Here is the link:
Darwin’s Legacy | Lecture 5 – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMcVY__T3Ho
To save you some time. Start at about 109:00 and follow Rosemary for a few minutes till at least 112:00. Then go to 146:30 and listen to Peter. Before this is the inane prattle by two of Stanford’s finest who do not understand that the Grants are saying that the whole evolution thing is a crock.
We addressed this previously, but you reposted the same comment. So here again is our reply. We watched the section you recommended. Rosemary Grant says “Divergence in morphology through the tracking of environmental change by natural selection”. She also discusses reproductive isolation, which is not complete, and the conditions under which to expect hybridization. That’s standard standard evolutionary biology. It’s so standard, you’ll find it in Darwin 1859.Zachriel
February 12, 2015
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REC at 2: It's not a question of the two processes being mutually exclusive. It's a question of what makes a good illustration for teaching purposes. Illustrations for teaching purposes must not be ambiguous. As most readers will readily appreciate.News
February 12, 2015
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Jack Sprat could eat no fat. His wife could eat no lean. And so between them both, you see, They licked the platter clean A good design rule for a finch beak genetic toolbox would be allowing some differing beak shapes. That way there would be less wasted food and more food for all. Beak shape guiding food consumption, not food consumption causing beak shape. Cool.ppolish
February 12, 2015
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A few related notes: The Grants (who studied Darwin's finches) made a long presentation at Stanford in 2009 on their work. It is available for all to see on the internet. In it they give the game away. All the so called Darwin finches can inner breed. Doesn’t happen much but it does happen and they have viable offspring that reproduce. Here is the link:
Darwin's Legacy | Lecture 5 - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMcVY__T3Ho
To save you some time. Start at about 109:00 and follow Rosemary for a few minutes till at least 112:00. Then go to 146:30 and listen to Peter. Before this is the inane prattle by two of Stanford’s finest who do not understand that the Grants are saying that the whole evolution thing is a crock.
Newly Discovered Convergent Genetic Evolution Between Bird and Human Vocalization Poses a Severe Challenge to Common Ancestry - Casey Luskin - December 15, 2014 Excerpt: "We've known for many years that the singing behavior of birds is similar to speech in humans -- not identical, but similar -,,, "But we didn't know whether or not those features were the same because the genes were also the same." "Now scientists do know, and the answer is yes -- birds and humans use essentially the same genes to speak.",,, "there is a consistent set of just over 50 genes,,," "These changes were not found in the brains of birds that do not have vocal learning and of non-human primates that do not speak," So certain birds and humans use the same genes for vocalization -- but those genetic abilities are absent in non-human primates and birds without vocal learning? If not derived from a common ancestor, as they clearly were not, how did the genes get there? This kind of extreme convergent genetic evolution points strongly to intelligent design. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2014/12/newly_discovere092041.html Epigenetics and the Evolution of Darwin’s Finches - 2014 Excerpt: The prevailing theory for the molecular basis of evolution (Neo-Darwinism) involves genetic mutations that ultimately generate the heritable phenotypic variation on which natural selection acts. However, epigenetic (Non-Darwinian) transgenerational inheritance of phenotypic variation may also play an important role in evolutionary change.,,, Genome-wide alterations in genetic mutations using copy number variation (CNV) were compared with epigenetic alterations associated with differential DNA methylation regions (epimutations). Epimutations were more common than genetic CNV mutations among the five species; furthermore, the number of epimutations increased monotonically with phylogenetic distance. Interestingly, the number of genetic CNV mutations did not consistently increase with phylogenetic distance.,,, http://gbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/6/8/1972.full Darwin's Finches Show Rule-Constrained Variation in Beak Shape - June 10, 2014 Excerpt: A simple yet powerful mathematical rule controls beak development, Harvard scientists find, while simultaneously preventing beaks from evolving into something else.,,, We find in Darwin's finches (and all songbirds) an internal system, controlled by a non-random developmental process. It is flexible enough to allow for variation, but powerful enough to constrain the beak to its basic form (a conical shape modulated by scaling and shear) so that the rest of the bird's structures are not negatively affected. Beak development is controlled by a decay process that must operate at a particular rate. It's all very precise, so much so that it could be modeled mathematically.,,, The very birds that have long been used as iconic examples of natural selection become, on closer examination, paragons of intelligent design. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2014/06/darwins_finches086581.html Back to School to Learn about the "Darwin's Finches" Icon of Evolution - Casey Luskin - September 22, 2012 Excerpt: Frank J. Sulloway of Harvard University showed that, really, Darwin was hardly influenced by finches and scarcely observed their feeding habits. He did not correlate their diets and beaks; in fact, Darwin collected too few specimens to determine whether any finch species was unique to each island. He did not even keep track of where he picked up every specimen. Really, no finch species was unique to any one island. Unfortunately, some teachers and writers remain unaware of Sulloway's historical findings. (Alberto A. Martinez, Science Secrets: The Truth about Darwin's Finches, Einstein's Wife, and Other Myths, pp. 95-96 (University of Pittsburgh Press, 2011).),,, It looks like Jonathan Wells has been vindicated once again. It would be nice to think that someday biology textbooks will be amended accordingly. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/09/back_to_school_064601.html Darwin 'Wrong': Species Living Together Does Not Encourage Evolution - December 20, 2013 Excerpt: Charles Darwin's theory of evolution set out in the Origin of Species has been proven wrong by scientists studying ovenbirds. Researchers at Oxford University found that species living together do not evolve differently to avoid competing with one another for food and habitats – a theory put forward by Darwin 150 years ago. The ovenbird is one of the most diverse bird families in the world and researchers were looking to establish the processes causing them to evolve. Published in Nature, the research compared the beaks, legs and songs of 90% of ovenbird species. Findings showed that while the birds living together were consistently more different than those living apart, this was the result of age differences. Once the variation of age was accounted for, birds that live together were more similar than those living separately – directly contradicting Darwin's view. The species that lived together had beaks and legs no more different than those living apart,,, ,,,there is no shortage of evidence for competition driving divergent evolution in some very young lineages. But we found no evidence that this process explains differences across a much larger sample of species.,,, He said that the reasons why birds living together appear to evolve less are "difficult to explain",,, http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/darwin-wrong-species-living-together-does-not-encourage-evolution-1429927 More Fossil-Molecule Contradictions: Now Even the Errors Have Errors - Cornelius Hunter - June 2014 Excerpt: a new massive (phylogenetic) study shows that not only is the problem (for Darwinist) worse than previously thought, but the errors increase with those species that are supposed to have evolved more recently.,,, "Our results suggest that, for Aves (Birds), discord between molecular divergence estimates and the fossil record is pervasive across clades and of consistently higher magnitude for younger clades." http://darwins-god.blogspot.com/2014/06/more-fossil-molecule-contradictions-now.html When Dinosaurs Flew - February 4, 2014 Excerpt: A study published online by PeerJ on Jan. 2 detailed the examination of a startlingly complete and pristine specimen of an ancient, dinosaur-era bird: Hongshanornis longicresta, which flapped throughout what is now China roughly 125 million years ago during the early Cretaceous Period.,,, “This isn’t a mode of flight we expected from Cretaceous birds,” Habib said, adding that its small size and overall shape are comparable to that of modern birds. “It was pretty much a Cretaceous starling with a larger tail like a mockingbird.” Transported to the modern world, it wouldn’t look like anything special to the casual observer, until a closer examination revealed claws at the end of the bird’s wings and tiny teeth in its beak.,,, http://dornsife.usc.edu/news/stories/1622/when-dinosaurs-flew/ News for the Birds - May 7, 2014 Excerpt: Yanornis is called an ancestor of birds, but PhysOrg reported on April 18 that a fossil found in China shows that “the digestive system of the ancestors to modern birds was essentially modern in all aspects.",,, But if it was already “essentially modern” in the ancestors, and already integrated with the flight systems, where is the time for natural selection to have supposedly produced it? per crevoinfo "The idea of feathered dinosaurs and the theropod origin of birds is being actively promulgated by a cadre of zealous scientists acting in concert with certain editors at Nature and National Geographic who themselves have become outspoken and highly biased proselytizers of the faith. Truth and careful scientific weighing of evidence have been among the first casualties in their program, which is now fast becoming one of the grander scientific hoaxes of our age---the paleontological equivalent of cold fusion." - Storrs Olson curator of birds at the Smithsonian Institution’s National Museum of Natural History
here are some cool video clips from 'FLIGHT: The Genius of Birds'
FLIGHT: The Genius of Birds - video clip playlist https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s05koz6adzw&list=PLO673u2zYHhmKlWOnzc6FCbGr42TCB71C
bornagain77
February 12, 2015
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"...would be hard pressed to show that there is any evolution going on, in the face of this much hybridization" I'm confused why news believes hybridization and "evolution" are mutually exclusive.REC
February 12, 2015
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Darwin rode around on Galapagos Turtles. Before eating them. Yikes http://www.whizzpast.com/23-things-need-know-charles-darwin/?utm_content=buffer88e2f&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer Wrong on finches and a turtle eater to boot;(ppolish
February 12, 2015
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