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Dawkins on free will

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The first paragraph of the following quote appeared in a comment to Gil Dodgen’s post on the Quinn v. Dawkins debate on Irish radio. The succeeding paragraph is quite illuminating and included here. Question: What evidence (since Dawkins is so big on evidence) would help us to decide whether attributing responsibility to others for their actions is simply an adaptive device fobbed off on us by evolution or a reflection of an underlying moral structure to the universe (sometimes called “natural law” or “higher law”)?

But doesn’t a truly scientific, mechanistic view of the nervous system make nonsense of the very idea of responsibility, whether diminished or not? Any crime, however heinous, is in principle to be blamed on antecedent conditions acting through the accused’s physiology, heredity and environment. Don’t judicial hearings to decide questions of blame or diminished responsibility make as little sense for a faulty man as for a Fawlty car?

Why is it that we humans find it almost impossible to accept such conclusions? Why do we vent such visceral hatred on child murderers, or on thuggish vandals, when we should simply regard them as faulty units that need fixing or replacing? Presumably because mental constructs like blame and responsibility, indeed evil and good, are built into our brains by millennia of Darwinian evolution. Assigning blame and responsibility is an aspect of the useful fiction of intentional agents that we construct in our brains as a means of short-cutting a truer analysis of what is going on in the world in which we have to live. My dangerous idea is that we shall eventually grow out of all this and even learn to laugh at it, just as we laugh at Basil Fawlty when he beats his car. But I fear it is unlikely that I shall ever reach that level of enlightenment.

Source: http://www.edge.org/q2006/q06_9.html#dawkins

Comments
frisbee: "Which, when you get right down to it, means there simply is no such thing as Objective Morality; outside of a very few restrictions so universal as to qualify as taboos, there are very few moral statements that qualify as “Objective,” in the sense they are true for all time even within a community of believers, never mind between groups." frisbee, you are technically correct here but only as the result of defining "objectivity" in such a manner that most here would fine unacceptable--or at least atypical. Objective, more classically, signifies something that exists in reality independent of any particular perspective. One can always argue that there is a divine, intransigent moral code that does in fact exist and could, in principle, be properly spelled out and adhered to. The fact that historical implementations in human societies have invariably faultered in one way or another does not exclude this objective possibility, and so I don't think we can say with certainty that such an objective moral code does not exist somewhere "out there" to be found or to be properly appreciated. It could well be the case that our own intellectual and spiritual ignorance combined with human weakness has thus far prohibited a realization of such a code and corresponding society. That said, it would be an exceptionally difficult--if not utterly impossible--case to make, given human history, that your own faction had arrived at that code, that truth, and was prepared to implement that virtuous society. Better to, like the modern western government, establish a big tent where individuals/factions can pursue the moral codes that they believe are best, all the while having the tent forcing citizens to adhere to some minimal set of moral standards which are, at least ostensibly, agreed upon by the majority. Of course the conflict of the tent codes with individual factions' codes are inevitable and can be serious. (e.g. abortion, stem cells, etc.) But I see no better alternative, and at least in such a tent someone who simply cannot tolerate the tent morality (or lack-there-of) can, barring no oportunity to rectify the situation politically, seek residence elsewhere.great_ape
October 23, 2006
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Posing a choice between “chemical reactions” on one hand, and Divine diktat on the other is to pose a false dichotomy. There is another alternative out there: what is good works, what isn’t doesn’t. So, what if murdering millions of people "works" for most humans 10 yrs from now? That would be, in your mind, good, because it "works." Nonsense. Furthermore- the Holiness Code pertains to a certain people at a certain time. If you create life, you can certainly make rules that apply only to some people at a certain point of time for a specific reason... I think we can argue that's completely justified. You can't choose your gender, so that means that your free will is a narrow constricted area that doesn't mean that much in the end? You can't choose your gender, so free will is basically too small to even matter, I assume? When I said easily- I was referring to Mark Frank, who I think IS saying that it comes down to what most people think is right (a populatity contest of sorts)...morality is inherent in us. That screams for an objective moral standard. For MOST actions, good and evil have been the same for all people for all time. Mere chemicals do that how? Good is suddenly merely what works best for the community? If that's so- good means nothing, as it's nothing but a tool evolved to help us form community and get along. It's like saying you're hardwired to be good for the sake of the community. Being good, for many people, isn't easy like that. It's easier to be bad, selfish, etc. If we're nothing but chemicals with no free will, no objective morality, EVERYTHING related to "morality" "right and wrong" and everything in between is 100% completely arbitrary. Chemicals don't care about the starting point or the end point. They could give a damned less about the morality itself or the consequences. A chemical cannot see ANYTHING as good or bad, right or wrong. If morals are relative- they CAN change. Maybe it won't happen in the blink of an eye, but a thousand years from now murdering innocents could be considered "good" by most people. Does that make it ultimately good? Would you, yourself, go along with the majority and proclaim it as good? Whjat if murdering innocents seemed like an okay idea considering the situation? Hitler did well to convince the German people that they were better off by rounding up the Jews. What if, related to the circumstances of the Germans at the time, it WAS best to round the Jews off? Is that somehow good because of it? No, it's evil then, it's evil tomorrow, it's evil forever. You can study divine morality and follow the evidence. If you're religion's founder was a brutal warrior tribesman who slaughtered innocents- it's safe to say your "divine morality" isn't divine at all. Why? Because humans are born with a sense of right and wrong without being taught right and wrong, and slaughtering innocents is wrong. On that subject- being born with right and wrong...what mutation could possibly choose right and wrong? How does a mutation know the difference? We are, indeed, born to know right and wrong. You can teach a baby nothing, and it will grow to inherently know murder is wrong. In his or her heart, a voice says 'this is wrong.' How does a chemical choose? What is the chemicals that evolved choose murder is good/ do what's best for you and to hell with the others? As for 13 yr old girls being married. I don't think many would see this as an issue of morality, free will, or anything related to these. The young age was a necessity when the lifespan was much shorter. I don't think most of us wouls say it's immoral for a girl of 13 to marry today...we'd say that it's just not necessary and probably a bad decision (is it not legal in some states with the permission of the parents?) , but I don't think many would say it's immoral.JasonTheGreek
October 23, 2006
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I never said or implied that good or evil was the result of a popularity contest. I said that we come to conclusions about moral issues by appealing to other people’s emotional reactions and luckily they, on the whole, agree.
You appeal to the reactions of others and most of them agree with your own conclusion of what is right and what is wrong...the fact that most of them agree with your view makes it objective. That is, in essence, a popularity contest in my book. You say terrorism is wrong, and that's solely your opinion...but it becomes "wrong" in an objective sense, as you claim, because most others agree with you that it's wrong. Seems like it comes down to a popularity contest to me. Mere chemicals don't choose right or wrong, they don't know right or wrong...mere chemicals just ARE. They're not one way or another- good or bad. Chemical reactions cannot be evil or peaceful. They just exist. They just are. I'm not sure how morality becomes objective simply because others agree with your stance on a moral issues and they agree that A is either good or bad. Simply because you can make others see how A is good and not bad.JasonTheGreek
October 23, 2006
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Indeed, why is there no possibility of discerning the truth of competing moral claims, within the constraints of the divine command theory? There seems to be some unsupported background assumption being utilized.jaredl
October 23, 2006
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2. There is no possibility of discerning, within the constraints of Divine diktat, the truth of competing moral claims. Islam, as a matter of divine direction, directs the beating of disobedient wives. Those who differ are on very shaky ground when using Divine diktat to claim otherwise. I'm confused - what is the shaky ground you refer to?jaredl
October 23, 2006
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GilDodgen: Wrong. Moral relativism is a truth claim about the nature of morality, which says that no truth claim about the nature of morality is valid. That's not quite right. Moral relativism is the position that (nearly all) moral claims are relative to their circumstances. In contrast, Objective Morality relies upon Divine diktat to provide a universal, concrete, extra-human to provide a morality independent of circumstances. Unfortunately, divinely inspired objective morality runs afoul of several problems: 1. It does not attain what it claims. Many moral claims of one era are completely contradicted in another by claimants of the same divine diktat. See, for example, the history of usury in Christianity, never mind the demands of Deuteronomy and Leviticus. 2. There is no possibility of discerning, within the constraints of Divine diktat, the truth of competing moral claims. Islam, as a matter of divine direction, directs the beating of disobedient wives. Those who differ are on very shaky ground when using Divine diktat to claim otherwise. 3. The inescapable Euthyphro Dilemma. (For those who are curious about it, the link points to a fairly thorough description of the dilemma, as well as a very extensive follow on discussion). With respect to moral relativism, while the concept has led to some pernicious nonsense, it simply isn't the bogeyman many claim. More properly, moral relativism claims that moral judgments are contingent upon exigent circumstances, which is not the same as anything goes. Once upon a not at all distant past in the US, girls could be married as young as 13. Not any more. What was once moral no longer is -- the moral judgment is based upon circumstances. Which, when you get right down to it, means there simply is no such thing as Objective Morality; outside of a very few restrictions so universal as to qualify as taboos, there are very few moral statements that qualify as "Objective," in the sense they are true for all time even within a community of believers, never mind between groups. JasonTheGreek highlights the point: Child rape isn’t wrong because most people inherently feel it’s wrong…if this were the case, we could easily reverse child rape to being “good” merely by getting most people to accept it as “good.” If it is inherent, than, given the intransigence of human nature, there simply is no such thing as "easily" reversing that conclusion. If there was no such thing as inherent and intransigent human nature, Communism would have triumphed. He goes on to say Well, if we have no free will and mere chemicals control our actions, chemicals don’t care about you, me, or whether virtue is good bad or somewhere in between. Let's take that as stipulated -- the distinctions between good and evil are wholly arbitrary, and changeable at a whim. What does not follow, however, is that the consequences are just as arbitrary. Some moral judgments have superior material consequences to others -- regardless of Christ's, or Communism's advice, the protection of private property yields superior material consequences to societies based upon communal property. So, within the context of Pol Pot, all kinds of things were deemed "good." But no amount of deeming was going to create an end state materially superior to a society that deemed as "good" those things Pol Pot viewed as "bad." Which makes morality an intellectual construct subject to evolution. Also, Jason probably overrates the scope of free will. When you start subtracting all the things you are not free to decide (start with your gender, and the constraints that puts on your world view and behavior, then work from there), free will becomes, at the least, very circumscribed. Posing a choice between "chemical reactions" on one hand, and Divine diktat on the other is to pose a false dichotomy. There is another alternative out there: what is good works, what isn't doesn't.frisbee
October 23, 2006
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Jason You are dead right - you don't follow the idea. That's my fault for explaining it badly - but forgive me because it is quite subtle. I will do my level best to explain it. In return I ask that you give it your full attention and read exactly what I have written. I never said or implied that good or evil was the result of a popularity contest. I said that we come to conclusions about moral issues by appealing to other people's emotional reactions and luckily they, on the whole, agree. This is the basis of objectivity. This is quite different from a popularity poll. The assertion "terrorism is evil" is not an estimate of global opinion, it is my statement about what I think of terrorism. But it becomes more than simply a report about my emotional reaction because I know that many other people share many of my ideas about what is good and what is evil. In a similar way, if you say something is beautiful you are saying something about how it affects you but you are also assuming that others can be brought to the same opinion. You devote some attention to what happens if there is a large scale change in people's assessment of good and evil. It is an interesting question but a hard one to answer because moral language and moral behaviour are based on human nature as it is - not as it might be. There have, of course, been fluctuations in people's feelings about moral issues over time and place. But not overwhelming changes - the majority of people at all times and places would accept that it is wrong to make other people suffer - all other things being equal. If human nature were totally different it is very hard to say how morality would change. The only reason I introduced colour was to show that even the most objective of concepts is grounded in common behaviour. No other similarities with morality were intended. Perhaps this helps? Somehow I doubt it - but you never know.Mark Frank
October 23, 2006
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Adding to what JasonThe Greek said.... Chemical reactions in our brain don't know what is right or wrong so the question to Mark Frank and others like him is: What decides something is right/wrong or true/false or pragmatic/not pragmatic? The same chemical reactions that tell your brain the sky is blue, 2+2=4 and science "works" are the same chemical reactions that tell you morality is an illusion (or not). How do you know which chemical reactions are telling you the truth?Lurker
October 23, 2006
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By the way. I would argue the idea IS absurd if morality is merely a chemical reaction in the brain that says good is what most humans say is good. I don't see how you could possibly get a moral standard that way that isn't relative and could change as the seasons change. All you need to do is change the minds of as many people as possible, and bam- evil is suddenly good. Finally- I don't think we can compare morality, ethics, and right and wrong to color blindness! It's like comparing apples and space shuttle parts. If someone is colorblind- we see that as a malfunction of the eye and the system connected to it that allows us to see. We don't see someone as a child rapist and merely say they have a malfunctioning morality center (in which case, you can't really get angry with them, afterall it's not their fault their 'morality center' is malfunctioning or broken)- we say they're evil.JasonTheGreek
October 23, 2006
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So even something as objective and factual as colour relies on a common human reaction. Morality is no different. And just as with colour, the fact that it has it roots in human reaction does not make it meaningless. We have a common reaction and that is what gives it is objectivity.
I'm not sure I follow this idea. Right and wrong are merely what most people feel is right and wrong? Child rape isn't wrong because most people inherently feel it's wrong...if this were the case, we could easily reverse child rape to being "good" merely by getting most people to accept it as "good." There's no way to get objective moral standards this way, if it's all based on a popularity contest of how many think A is right and B is wrong. Besides- we DON'T have a common human reaction on moral issues. There are, in fact, many people out there who are just evil and see nothing wrong with child rape. When you say common human reaction- where do you draw the line? Is something only good when 51% of all people say it's good? Or is it only when 75% of us say it's good? What happens when the tide changes and 60% of us say that child rape is good? Does it suddenly swap from being bad to good? This could possibly happen. That alone crushes the argument that "common human reaction" makes morality and thus it's objective. Good people's actions mean nothing if a majority of people change their minds and call virtue evil someday in the future. Is it possible virtue will be seen as evil? Well, if we have no free will and mere chemicals control our actions, chemicals don't care about you, me, or whether virtue is good bad or somewhere in between. Chemicals might change in our brains and proclaim to our common human reaction that virtue is suddenly evil. Thus- Christ himself becomes the root of evil and maybe someone like Pol Pot becomes good? Chemicals don't know either way, and they could very easily mix up in our heads and make "right" suddenly "wrong." I've no idea how this worldview could ever be seen as an objective standard of morality. A common human reaction could change in 1000 years...a gut feeling that exists in all good people is what we go by. We don't take a poll and ask others what is good and what isn't. As people, we inherently know deep down what is and what isn't good. Terrorism is bad- and that will never change. What happens if the birthrates in extremist muslim nations actually increases, and we suddenly find ourselves in a world where a majority of people support terrorist attacks? Is terrorism suddenly good because the common human reaction says it is? This whole worldview is a mess when you think of what it could SO easily lead to...JasonTheGreek
October 23, 2006
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Borne I think the answer to your post is to be found in my answer to Gil. But I will try to make the link clearer. We are clearly talking past each other and I think the root of the problem is confusing statements about the nature of morality with moral judgements. I am not making moral judgements. I am talking about the nature of morality and how we make moral judgements. My "authority" is to observe how we do it. Does a scientist need to appeal to a higher authority to provide a justification for his observations? No. He just points to what he observes . In a similar fashion I am pointing to how we actually make moral judgements. In general, we don't look the answers up in books. We don't get an ethics professional to come and work out the answer. We appeal to our emotions; in the reasonable belief that we have enough in common to come a to common judgement. One of things you or I or anyone can observe about moral judgements is that people believe some moral judgements are correct and others are wrong. There is also a large amount of agreement about which judgements are correct (although clearly there are disagreements). That is the basis of objectivity in morals. If it happened that we were totally inconsistent in our judgements of what is right or wrong then indeed there would no such thing as morality - fortunately that is not the case. None of this entails that moral judgements are meaningless or arbitrary ( just as me calling grass green is not meaningless or arbitrary - even though that also relies on a common assessment of colour). Evil people are still responsible for their crimes. Good people are still praiseworthy for their virtues. This position is logical, consistent and corresponds with how people actually make moral judgements. Furthermore, adding some other element, such as God's word, does not make moral judgements any more objective. We would still have to consistently agree that God's word was good before it became the basis of any morality. This is what I mean't by "infinite regress" way back at the beginning of this thread. I know I am not going to change anyone's mind. We are rehashing arguments that have been made a thousand times over the millenia. But I hope at least you can see what I am saying is not absurd.Mark Frank
October 23, 2006
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Wrong. Moral relativism is a truth claim about the nature of morality, which says that no truth claim about the nature of morality is valid.
. Gil - I am struggling to understand this statement. I am not sure how a "truth claim" differs from an ordinary claim. Are they the same thing? Also I am not sure what you mean by "valid". Do you mean true? Assuming both these things we end up with: Moral relativism is a claim about the nature of morality, which says that no claim about the nature of morality is true. This is indeed a paradox! It highlights the need to distinguish between moral statements and statements about morality. As a software guy you must be aware of the distinction between languages and meta-languages. It is the same thing. Perhaps you mean that moral relativism is a meta-statement about morality that says that no moral statement is true? This would be an extraordinary metastatement. Paedophilia is immoral and Paedophilia is not immoral are both moral statements. However, I am not aware of any moral relativist who says this. In fact all that a moral relativist claims is that the truth or otherwise of the moral statement is grounded in common reaction to paedophilia. Before you jump up and down and say "but that means there is no objective basis" look at some other things that we would regard as being objective e.g. the colour of an object. You and I would probably pretty much always agree that a clear sky is blue. But suppose I didn't? Suppose the human species did not have common ideas of about what objects were the same colour? (And of course there are many men who find red and green to be shades of the same colour and even you and I will have a different perception of colour under different lighting or with a different background.) So one person would find the sky to be the same colour as grass and the next might look at a cloudless sky and see multiple colours in it. All in an unpredictable and widely varying fashion. Then there would be no way to make meaningful colour statements. (Nor would it help much if someone introduced a book of rules saying that grass is actually green even though a large percentage of people don't see it that way). So even something as objective and factual as colour relies on a common human reaction. Morality is no different. And just as with colour, the fact that it has it roots in human reaction does not make it meaningless. We have a common reaction and that is what gives it is objectivity.Mark Frank
October 23, 2006
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Mark: "There is no higher authority or ultimate proof to resolve whether the husband or the wife is right: just common desires for compassion and fairness" You are doing exactly as I said you would do. You are yourself appealing to some assumed authority of truth to support your view - thus proving yourself wrong. You constantly assume that there is a real justice - that "fairness" and "compassion" and "rightness" are true concepts - all while stating the contrary! It sticks out like a sore thumb so I remain surprised that you cannot see this. Your very phrase "whether the husband or the wife is right" demonstrates this adequately, for here you assume that one could be right or *more right* than the other! This kind of statement contains an underlying recognition of some rule by which such a thing may be judged. If there really is no such rule - by what rule or authority are you here trying to prove it!? Your own? Obviously you believe that what you say is more "right" than what I and others are saying. But upon what basis or authority of truth do base this? Your own ideas? Dawkins? If so then upon what authority do they speak? You cannot win in this situation for by trying to prove yourself right you must necessarily appeal to some higher authority than yourself! The nihilist, relativist view = moral suicide. Also, your example is faulty as someone else stated - you are clearly missing the point. Again, if there is no higher or ultimate authority there simply is no such thing as morality and, as Dawkins & cie. clearly say, morality is an illusion. You try to prove yourself right - all while denying there is any such means of proof! If there is no external rule, then there is no objective way to measure any morality at all and thus no means of declaring one action blame-worthy or praise-worthy. All actions and all thoughts are, in that case, equally neutral and all opinion purely arbitrary and subjective. Without the external Moral Law, there is no other reliable rule of judgment and right and wrong themselves are, as Dawkins says, mere human invention pushed on us by random mutations and selection forces. Utterly useless and meaningless! So what are you arguing for?Borne
October 22, 2006
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Jaredl: The argument is straightforward. But your conclusion is not. This problem has been debated for thousands of years, and so far there is no evidence to suggest that foreknowledge of an event removes the possibility of free will.Lurker
October 22, 2006
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Mark Frank says:
The fallacy is that the question of whether fashion is subjective or objective is not itself a question about what is fashionable. It is a logical/epistemological question about how we make judgements about fashion. In the same way the question of whether moral values are objective is not itself a moral judgement.
Wrong. Moral relativism is a truth claim about the nature of morality, which says that no truth claim about the nature of morality is valid.GilDodgen
October 22, 2006
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Great_Ape, You said "Of course, every such society founded on divine law understands its own interpretation as correct. Yet that is the one thing we can be sure of is not the case; they can’t all be right." I agree with that. They all can't be right. But some are much better than others and anything based on shifting standards can never survive. An aside, "Give Me that Old Time Rock and Roll." I never met anyone who did not think it was fun, especially at the beginning. Maybe I just never ran in the prudish circles.jerry
October 22, 2006
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"Yet that is the one thing we can be sure of is not the case; they can’t all be right." Something we agree on! You'd be surprised at just how many people would disagree with us as I'm sure you're painfully aware of.jpark320
October 22, 2006
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jerry: "One of the problems with current society’s standards that are not religious based is that they are frequently shifting and come from one’s political motives and we use the term political correctness to express this. This is similar to using as a standard what the person in power decrees is appropriate at the moment." There was a time when I would agree completely; the foundations of human law are less clear than divinely ordained law. In principle, is true. However, in practice, even religious laws are subject to contemporary interpretations. As a trivial example, there was a time when any respectable person would have simply understood with certainty that rock-n-roll was of the devil. There are very few such people now. For mormons, there was a time when polygamy was ok, now it isn't. Divine law, we can presume, has not changed in the interim. Since our deities invariably seem to communicate through ancient texts and/or private intimations to the receptive, the public at large is left with a good deal of wiggle-room concerning which laws takes precedent, which laws are no longer applicable (Leviticus, for example), and what is even law vs. nonlaw. There are, of course, some divine laws that are pretty straightfoward; "thou shall not steal" comes to mind. But those laws are just as straightfoward from a humanist perspective. They are not "groundless," as the tend to be very pragmatic in nature. They are the types of laws that allow societies to function. Everything else is up for grabs to some extent or another and varies from region to region, population to population. Now we might argue that a pragmatic humanistic foundation for laws allows, ultimately, for a Hitler, etc, and I would agree. But a cursory reading of history will show you that many such atrocities, if on a smaller scale, occurred precisely because of someone or some group's interpretation of divine law. In my mind, these attrocities would have approached the scale of Hitler except for the lack of appropriate industrial technology. I guess my point is that the society based on divine law is, in practice, not much better off. Consider the Taliban, for instance. It's only advantage is that it will receive the blessing of the deity *if* its understanding and implementation of divine law is correct. Of course, every such society founded on divine law understands its own interpretation as correct. Yet that is the one thing we can be sure of is not the case; they can't all be right.great_ape
October 22, 2006
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The next step from there is to consider that since 'religious units' are, by comparison, faulty, and therefore in need of 'upgrading or replacement'. No doubt creationists and IDers would be considered the most 'faulty' of all.StephenA
October 22, 2006
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BJ Really does show that the totality of the defects of the "Dawkins unit" doesn't it? The only way Dawkins et.al. can justify their thinking is to believe that they represent the next step in our evolutionary development and that they are among the first to have evolved beyond the need for religious beliefs for survival. If Dawkins were an honest evolutionist, he would have to agree.DonaldM
October 22, 2006
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I also resonate bj's thoughts. If religious beliefs are such a great survival advantage why does Dawkins fight against it, embrace your evolutionary advantage geez... If he really thinks its so hardwired in us for our survival benefit, he must be a poor evolutionist to think that he could change it.jpark320
October 22, 2006
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Donald M I have had similar thoughts. If religious beliefs are evolutionary adaptations, then they exist because they provide survival benefits. You could call them metaphysical survival benefits. Since the majority of humanity holds such beliefs and has throughout human history, you would be foolish to think your going to eradicate such beliefs by writing books and producing television shows.bj
October 22, 2006
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DonaldM, Bravo!jerry
October 22, 2006
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Why is it that we humans find it almost impossible to accept such conclusions? Why do we vent such visceral hatred on child murderers, or on thuggish vandals, when we should simply regard them as faulty units that need fixing or replacing?
Well, if our behavior patterns are the end result of evolutionary processes, as Dawkins clearly espouses, then I have to wonder what the criteria is to determine what constitutes a "faulty" unit, in behavior terms. Perhaps Dawkins means behavior that he personally doesn't like...like believing in God, for example...but that hardly provides a basis applicable to all "units" for determining which ones are "faulty". I wonder if Dawkins realizes that the "faulty" unit in need of repair or replacement might just be the one that exhibits atheistic tendencies and denies that God exists. After all, Dawkins and his cohorts (i.e. Danny ('hi I'm a bright" Dennett), have repeatedly told us that our religious notions were given to us by evolution because it increased our fitness for survival. That would make denial of those notions "faulty" in evolutionary terms. So, here's an idea: let's repair or replace Dawkins!!DonaldM
October 22, 2006
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Re #35.
If the man based his life on the Bible, he’d never had married a non-Christian in the first place
Jason - I don't understand what you getting at. The world is full of marriages between fervent believers and agnostics or even atheists. There is one example my own family. However, it is irrelevant to the point of the story. I should have made the point clearer. It is not to prove whether one party or the other is correct. The point is to illustrate how in practice we resolve moral issues. We don't usually look up the answer in a book or turn to a priest to tell us what is right or wrong. We appeal to human emotions - compassion, fairness, justice etc. Some may try justifying their morality in terms of the Koran says this, or the Bible says that, but almost invariably slip into justifying their particular set of rules in terms of simple human emotions. If someone points out a passage in the Old Testament where the Jews kill all the males of another tribe - Christians (and Jews) don't react by saying - the Bible says massacres are OK - our human feeling that it is wrong must be mistaken. They react by saying that we have misinterpreted that bit of the Bible or that bit was not intended to be moral guidance or whatever. If we did not have lot of common ground on what we feel to be right, then the world would indeed be chaotic - luckily we do have common ground. Whether this is relativism, I don't know. On the whole it works - with some major and horrific exceptions. e.g. most adults find it abhorrent to cause suffering to other sentient beings.Mark Frank
October 22, 2006
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Big problem with that example, Mark. If the man based his life on the Bible, he'd never had married a non-Christian in the first place. And for good reason- she specifically denies that their shared ethics, morality comes from a higher source and can be found within a particular book. The Bible, in this particular case, makes it clear that life isn't fair. The man could easily go off for a bit and save lives, leaving the wife at home with the kids or whatever situation she's left in, and that's fine. She might feel like he's not doing the right thing, but that's her sense of fairness...I don't think right and wrong hinge on whether you think life is fair or not. Ambulance drivers probably see people die a lot- I'd argue to see that daily isn't really all that fair, but it's still moral what they do. It's clearly a good thing. In the situation you describe- if both were Christians, I can almost guarantee they'd come to agree on the issue just by going to the Word for guidance. Hitler surely didn't share the same idea of suffering and justice as others! So, that doesn't really hold up. I'm sure there are millions of evil people worldwide who would kill your child without flinching, praising the act as good. They're wrong. With no higher authority, tho, they are NOT wrong. They just are. A law cannot exist without a lawmaker- else it's meaningless. If someone didn't hand down the law, then it's arbitrary and can be changed at a moment's notice. If one day we get more people that think Hitler's actions were right more than those who think it was wrong- do we allow millions to die because the overriding majority says it's okay? Do we then call their actions good because it's the feeling of most people? Moral relativism leads to disaster. If we all lived our lives as if right and wrong are just human concepts, we'd be screwed in no time. A group would get together and declare evil things good and gatehr enough people to back them up- then they could easily say that what they say is right and what you say is wrong. I mean, with the sheer numbers alone- we surely can't be wrong. I can imagine the world this way- it would lead to chaos and anarchy in the blink of an eye, I'd say.JasonTheGreek
October 22, 2006
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Here is a repeat of a post I made a week ago on this same topic of morals/ethics, etc. Ethics, right vs. wrong, good vs. evil are only relevant versus a standard. We judge an act against a standard and then make claims about the act relative to the standard. If the standard is arbitrarily chosen such as when Dr. McNeill says someone professes a form of Buddhism then they can say their actions are moral, good, etc. because they have chosen an arbitrary standard to judge their actions. When a religious person chooses a standard it is because they believe that the standard has been handed down from their creator and is thus not necessarily arbitrary. They didn’t choose it but it came from God. A religious person acts in a certain way because of this standard set down from above. But as we have seen a person can choose which standard from above he likes by what religion he chooses to adhere to, so this too is often fairly arbitrary. Others have chosen to study human nature and develop laws about what is good or bad depending upon what humans prefer. In other words they are trying to find what is built into humans and develop standards from that. This is what is called the study of natural law. This natural law is supposedly there because a creator made it so. You can argue that no such standard from above exists or there is no built in natural law but there is a difference between Dr. McNeill’s standards and a religious person’s standards based on a revelation or natural law. Dr. McNeill is choosing some other person’s or group of person’s standards as opposed to a creator’s standards. There is all sorts of ways to set standards and one of the common ones in history was to use the ruler’s standards as Great_Ape mentioned above. One of the problems with current society’s standards that are not religious based is that they are frequently shifting and come from one’s political motives and we use the term political correctness to express this. This is similar to using as a standard what the person in power decrees is appropriate at the moment. Another common way people set standards was from a work of literature in the form of a written document or folklore passed down from the elders. The Iliad and Odyssey did this for ancient Greeks and other epics have done it for other cultures. Certainly the Bible has had such a role even for the non-believers. So when an atheist says they have ethics and are acting morally they are just using some arbitrary standard set by someone. Often in today’s society these standards that atheist use have flowed from Judeo-Christian beliefs but because they have no firm standard what they use is morphing away from these standards. We could say they are evolving. So problem with atheism is that there is no agreed upon standards and whatever personal standards they may use could change very quickly since there is no basis for adhering to any standard other than current personal preference. So we can get a Hitler, an eugenicist or a Richard Dawkins or you name it.jerry
October 22, 2006
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RE : ===================== It is fact of human nature that we are sufficiently similar in our reactions to the suffering of others, injustice etc that we assume that if we describe things powerfully enough or assemble enough facts then eventually we will come to the same decision. ==================== It is not ALWAYS a fact of human nature that we are all similar in our reactions to the suffering of others. Al Qaeda can prove it anytime. THEY REJOICE at the suffering of others. What you are simply telling us is that given two opposite reactions to human suffering, there REALLY is no foundational basis for determining which reaction is GOOD or BAD. They all boil down to how we evolved. But I think that's what Dawkins is implying in his essay anyway.SeekAndFind
October 22, 2006
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I have a problem that my posts are usually held up for 24 hours or more and frequently don't make it at all. But it is interesting subject matter - so I will try to participate. I thought this was an interesting argument from Borne in #30.
The standard atheist doctrine is that there are no objective moral values. But upon what objective basis is this claim made?! None whatsoever! And to try to prove the contrary is to prove that you yourself believe you have some higher authority to use to do so!
You could use the same argument whenever anyone claimed something was subjective. E.g. “you claim there is no objective basis to clothes fashion. But upon what objective basis is this claim made? To try and prove to the contrary is to prove you yourself believe that you some higher authority about what is fashionable.” The fallacy is that the question of whether fashion is subjective or objective is not itself a question about what is fashionable. It is a logical/epistemological question about how we make judgements about fashion. In the same way the question of whether moral values are objective is not itself a moral judgement. It is a question about the logical/epistemological basis for morals. You don’t answer such questions by appealing to a higher authority! Those that believe that we need a higher authority to provide a basis for moral judgements should consider how we actually conduct discussions and arguments about moral matters. I offer a small story to illustrate the point. I apologise for the length of the post (which I will replicate here http://mark_frank.blogspot.com/2006/10/on-moral-objectivity.html) Suppose a middle class western man is appalled by the situation in some stricken African country. He is a doctor and believes that he could make a big difference if he went out there and could save many lives, but it would mean leaving his wife and family and his wife objects. He is a devout Christian and he tries to find the answer in his Bible or prays for guidance. He comes to the conclusion that God is telling him the right thing is to go. His wife is agnostic. She argues on the lines of – How sure are you that you really can save all these lives? When we married you made a commitment. Have you considered the children? Why can’t someone else do it? Etc. Is she making a logical error by appealing to a common human sense of what is right or wrong rather than seeking to interpret God’s will. If the husband discovers a verse in the Bible that says unequivocally that trying to save lives is more important than family ties – is she proven wrong? The concept that is missing is suspended subjectivity. It is a bit like Dennett’s intentional stance. It is fact of human nature that we are sufficiently similar in our reactions to the suffering of others, injustice etc that we assume that if we describe things powerfully enough or assemble enough facts then eventually we will come to the same decision. The wife is working on this assumption. (Something similar applies to aesthetics). There is no higher authority or ultimate proof to resolve whether the husband or the wife is right: just common desires for compassion and fairness and an assumption that the other can be made to see their point of view. They can’t call in the ethics expert to tell them which was right, as they could get a legal expert to tell them what was legal. The husband may try to produce a book of rules e.g. in the form of the Bible, but the wife can always undermine it by pointing out that a particular rule would imply suffering or injustice or broken commitments. The husband might defend it simply by saying - ah but it is in the book therefore it is God’s word therefore it must be moral. In this case I suggest the wife might feel justifiably aggrieved. More likely he will say something on the lines of she has misinterpreted the rule and actually it does lead to less suffering or greater justice or it is an inevitable consequence of the gift of free will or whatever. i.e. he has to justify the rule.Mark Frank
October 22, 2006
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"He argues there there must be some standard against which we can judge god/God’s will as good. Otherwise what the deity dictates can not be properly said to be good in the sense that we commonly understand “good.”" - great_ape What then is this standard, if God himself is the one who has put this standard in us? Who are we to judge our creator? (if we have one) Can creation be worthy of judging the creator? If there is a creator, who is infinitely more intelligent than his creation and has been around since the beginning of time, which human, among all of us on the earth, above the earth and under the earth, do you think is worthy of passing judgement on such a being? How long have any of us been around? How much do any of us know? Let's put our limited knowledge and more often than not, vain intellect in perspective. We are human, and have come into a world we did not make. Let us not exalt ourselves beyond what we deserve, if we deserve to be exalted at all.WinglesS
October 22, 2006
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