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Denis Noble: Why talk about replacement of Darwinian evolution theory, not extension?

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Royal Society In new book on the Royal Society’s Public Evolution Summit, Oxford’s Denis Noble explains,

The reasons I think we are talking about replacement rather than extension are several. The first is that the exclusion of any form of acquired characteristics being inherited was a central feature of the modern synthesis. In other words, to exclude any form of inheritance that was non-Mendelian, that was Lamarckian-like, was an essential part of the modern synthesis. What we are now discovering is that there are mechanisms by which some acquired characteristics can be inherited, and inherited robustly. So it’s a bit odd to describe adding something like to the synthesis ( i.e., extending the synthesis). A more honest statement is that the synthesis needs to be replaced.

By “replacement” I don’t mean to say that the mechanism of random change followed by selection does not exist as a possible mechanism. But it becomes one mechanism amongst many others, and those mechanisms must interact. So my argument for saying this is a matter of replacement rather than extension is simply that it was adirect intention of those who formulated the modern synthesis to exclude the inheritance of acquired characteristics. (p. 25)

That’s why the fat’s in the fire and smoking hot. Darwinism (or whatever the term du jour is) has been a totalistic system, enforced as such. But the evidence today simply doesn’t support it.

Reading Mazur’s book, I was struck by two things:

The genuinely interesting nature of alternative evolution proposals contrasts sharply with the science media release where fairly dull researchers have come up with a casuistical explanation of how Darwinism can account for various phenomena. And one realizes that for those individuals, that is evolution. That is science. Science is about reaffirming and finding evidence for the teachings of the Great One. And deploring or attacking anyone who doubts his teachings, irrespective of the state of the evidence.

The new approach is not exclusive or totalistic. It does not behave, as Darwinism does, as a metaphysic. Among many assemblies of evidence, some will naturally prevail, as more persuasive than others. But for once, evidence exists to understand living things better rather than to understand Darwin better.

Ladies and gentlemen, place your bets. This’ll be fun.

See also: What to expect from the Royal Society’s public evolution summit November 7-9

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Comments
Bob O'H: Thank you for replying again. Please, note that it was you -not I- who started this 'conversation' with your comment @60. You provided much unsolicited information which caused more confusion. I took it as an open invitation to discuss. If you want to 'chat' with me, be willing and ready to answer questions. Otherwise, don't even start. Again, in this case, it was you who started the exchange of comments. If someone starts a direct one-on-one discussion/debate/conversation/chat with me, I assume that person is willing and ready to ask and answer questions. I'm very curious and know much less than most folks in this site, including yourself, hence I like to ask questions to learn. Many questions I ask are fairly simple and easy to answer. But we should read the questions carefully and follow any given directions on how to answer them. As you can see in this case, most of the questions I asked you just required a simple 'yes' or 'no' answer. That's it. Also, note that the questions @65 are numbered and grouped by categories. Thus you don't have to repeat the questions along with your answers. It's sufficient to refer to the question number and write your answer next to that number. One reason I do it like that, besides my curiosity, is to make my interlocutor reveal his/her real motives for the conversation/discussion. If a person complains about simple questions like those, it could mean that person is not really interested in having a serious conversation/discussion with me. You could have answered all the questions posted @65. But did you want to? Apparently not. That's fine, it's your prerogative. But again, you were the initiator of this exchange. I did not address you directly in this thread before you addressed me @60. Do you understand what I mean? I'm not good conveying ideas clearly. From what you described in your comments, in a way you're a scientist, but I'm not and I'm far from becoming one. Most probable you know a lot more about biology than I do. For years I've worked as a software developer for an engineering design system. But I like science, specially biology. Therefore if we were to discuss some biology stuff here, I could benefit more than you because I have more to learn from what you know than you could learn from what I know about biology. Do you agree? Let's go back to my questions @65: Are the questions 3-7 difficult for you to answer either 'yes' or 'no'? Actually, it should be easy for you to answer the first seven questions I asked Daniel King @72, right? Yes, no, maybe? :) There's one most important knowledge -above any scientific or philosophical knowledge- which I would enjoy sharing with you, which gives me the confidence that frees me from having to meet some worldly standards in order to qualify as 'acceptable' to this world. It's the knowledge of Christ, who made everything that was made, including you and me. I pray that somehow someday you'll have that knowledge too. I know He loves you, because He proved He loves me, and I'm sure I'm not better than you. He created you and me in His image (Imago Dei). Therefore you and I have the same dignity. And most important, you and I can have intimate relation with our own Creator. He gracefully provided the way for us to approach Him personally, forever. Think about this. I'll pray for you. Enjoy the rest of the weekend. PS. This ends our conversation, as per your request.Dionisio
October 29, 2016
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Dionosio - I don't see why I should be beholden to you. I comment on some threads, and not others, depending on how interesting they are, how busy I am, and whether I feel there's something worth commenting on. I've no idea why you're asking me about morphogen gradients. It's not my area of expertise.Bob O'H
October 29, 2016
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Bob O'H: There's an error in a statement within my post @56. Here's the corrected text:
Please, don’t forget that you’re dealing with folks who apparently have no interest whatsoever in serious science. Otherwise they would have been active participants in the discussion threads “Mystery at the heart of life” and “A third way of evolution?”, but they aren’t.
The word 'apparently' was added. However, still it would be highly appreciated if you responded the questions posted @65.Dionisio
October 28, 2016
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Daniel King @67:
Please address the poster’s argument,...
1. Do you know exactly why Dionisio is writing directly to Bob O'H? 2. Do you know who started the direct exchange of comments between Bob O'H and Dionisio? 3. BTW, did Bob O'H hire you as his defense lawyer? :) 4. Do you want to discuss science with me? 5. Do you have time for such a discussion? 6. Would you be really interested in such a discussion? 7. At any depth of details? You may use any help you can get. Just let me know when you're ready. For appetizers you may start from the questions # 6 & 7 posted @65.Dionisio
October 28, 2016
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Daniel King @67:
Please address the poster’s argument,...
Please, can you indicate what "poster's argument" are you referring to?Dionisio
October 28, 2016
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Daniel King, if you are not a Theist then, by default, you are not being 'scientific' but are in fact being anti-scientific. Let us be VERY clear to the fact that ALL of science, every discipline within science, is dependent on basic Theistic presuppositions about the rational intelligibility of the universe and the ability of our mind to comprehend that rational intelligibility.,,,
The Great Debate: Does God Exist? - Justin Holcomb - audio of the 1985 Greg Bahnsen debate available at the bottom of the site Excerpt: When we go to look at the different world views that atheists and theists have, I suggest we can prove the existence of God from the impossibility of the contrary. The transcendental proof for God’s existence is that without Him it is impossible to prove anything. The atheist worldview is irrational and cannot consistently provide the preconditions of intelligible experience, science, logic, or morality. The atheist worldview cannot allow for laws of logic, the uniformity of nature, the ability for the mind to understand the world, and moral absolutes. In that sense the atheist worldview cannot account for our debate tonight.,,, http://justinholcomb.com/2012/01/17/the-great-debate-does-god-exist/
Moreover, if we cast aside those basic Theistic presuppositions about the rational intelligibility of the universe and the ability of our mind to comprehend that rational intelligibility, and try to use naturalism as our basis for understanding the universe, and for practicing science, then everything within that atheistic/naturalistic worldview, (i.e. supposed evidence for Darwinian evolution, observations of reality, beliefs about reality, sense of self, free will, even reality itself), collapses into self refuting, unrestrained, flights of fantasy and imagination.
Darwinian evolution, and atheism/naturalism in general, are built entirely upon a framework of illusions and fantasy Excerpt: Thus, basically, without God, everything within the atheistic/naturalistic worldview, (i.e. supposed evidence for Darwinian evolution, observations of reality, beliefs about reality, sense of self, free will, even reality itself), collapses into self refuting, unrestrained, flights of fantasy and imagination. It would be hard to fathom a more unscientific worldview than Darwinian evolution and Atheistic materialism/naturalism in general have turned out to be. Scientists should definitely stick with the worldview that brought them to the dance! i.e Christianity! https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Q94y-QgZZGF0Q7HdcE-qdFcVGErhWxsVKP7GOmpKD6o/edit
Supplemental notes:
The Threat to the Scientific Method that Explains the Spate of Fraudulent Science Publications - Calvin Beisner | Jul 23, 2014 Excerpt: It is precisely because modern science has abandoned its foundations in the Biblical worldview (which holds, among other things, that a personal, rational God designed a rational universe to be understood and controlled by rational persons made in His image) and the Biblical ethic (which holds, among other things, that we are obligated to tell the truth even when it inconveniences us) that science is collapsing. As such diverse historians and philosophers of science as Alfred North Whitehead, Pierre Duhem, Loren Eiseley, Rodney Stark, and many others have observed,, science—not an occasional flash of insight here and there, but a systematic, programmatic, ongoing way of studying and controlling the world—arose only once in history, and only in one place: medieval Europe, once known as “Christendom,” where that Biblical worldview reigned supreme. That is no accident. Science could not have arisen without that worldview. http://townhall.com/columnists/calvinbeisner/2014/07/23/the-threat-to-the-scientific-method-that-explains-the-spate-of-fraudulent-science-publications-n1865201/page/full Several other resources backing up this claim are available, such as Thomas Woods, Stanley Jaki, David Linberg, Edward Grant, J.L. Heilbron, and Christopher Dawson. Science and Theism: Concord, not Conflict* – Robert C. Koons IV. The Dependency of Science Upon Theism (Page 21) Excerpt: Far from undermining the credibility of theism, the remarkable success of science in modern times is a remarkable confirmation of the truth of theism. It was from the perspective of Judeo-Christian theism—and from the perspective alone—that it was predictable that science would have succeeded as it has. Without the faith in the rational intelligibility of the world and the divine vocation of human beings to master it, modern science would never have been possible, and, even today, the continued rationality of the enterprise of science depends on convictions that can be reasonably grounded only in theistic metaphysics. http://www.robkoons.net/media/69b0dd04a9d2fc6dffff80b3ffffd524.pdf
bornagain77
October 28, 2016
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Querius, You're funny. Dionisio's fallacious reasoning is science? Get a grip, if you can.Daniel King
October 28, 2016
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No, they're not, DK. These are what are termed "observable facts." This is actually what science is supposed to be based on. Imagine that. -QQuerius
October 28, 2016
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Dionisio, Your logical fallacy is ad hominem. Please address the poster's argument, not his person. Thank you.Daniel King
October 28, 2016
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Bob O’H @64:
I don’t read every thread (just when I have time), so the reason I don’t participate is because I lack the time or interest .
In this current discussion thread you have posted @:
3 Bob O’H October 23, 2016 at 12:24 pm 15 Bob O’H October 24, 2016 at 2:08 am 37 Bob O’H October 25, 2016 at 5:16 am 42 Bob O’H October 26, 2016 at 4:40 am 44 Bob O’H October 26, 2016 at 6:59 am 46 Bob O’H October 26, 2016 at 8:27 am 48 Bob O’H October 26, 2016 at 9:10 am 50 Bob O’H October 26, 2016 at 9:43 am 52 Bob O’H October 26, 2016 at 1:32 pm 60 Bob O’H October 27, 2016 at 3:35 am 64 Bob O’H October 28, 2016 at 7:00 am
As anyone can see, you haven’t missed a single day since News started this thread last October 23rd. You have posted 11 comments in 6 days just in this thread. Definitely you don't lack interest to comment in this thread. And apparently you've had some time for that too. Is this an accurate observation?Dionisio
October 28, 2016
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Bob O'H @64: In this current discussion thread you have posted @:
3 Bob O’H October 23, 2016 at 12:24 pm 15 Bob O’H October 24, 2016 at 2:08 am 37 Bob O’H October 25, 2016 at 5:16 am 42 Bob O’H October 26, 2016 at 4:40 am 44 Bob O’H October 26, 2016 at 6:59 am 46 Bob O’H October 26, 2016 at 8:27 am 48 Bob O’H October 26, 2016 at 9:10 am 50 Bob O’H October 26, 2016 at 9:43 am 52 Bob O’H October 26, 2016 at 1:32 pm 60 Bob O’H October 27, 2016 at 3:35 am 64 Bob O'H October 28, 2016 at 7:00 am
You haven't missed a single day since News started this thread last October 23rd. 1. Is your allegedly 'scientific' work really keeping you as busy as you claim? (yes/no) 2. What has motivated you to post comments here in this thread every single day since it started? The following 3 questions (3-5) are related to the two threads I mentioned @56 which were started by News long ago. One has been up around 2.5 years, the other close to two years. Both are filled with numerous references to relatively recent biology research papers. Maybe over 3 thousand references combined? 3. Have you ever looked into the discussion threads “Mystery at the heart of life” and/or “A third way of evolution?” even without posting any comments? (yes/no) 4. Have you ever posted a comment on at least one of those discussion threads? (yes/no) 5. Do you have any strong counter arguments against any of the comments posted by others in those two threads? (yes/no) The following questions were asked to professor L.M. of the U. of T. His answers are publicly available in this site. Now you have the opportunity to answer them too. 6. Do you know exactly how the morphogen gradients are formed? (yes/no) 7. Do you know exactly how the morphogen gradients are interpreted? (yes/no) That's all for now. Thank you.Dionisio
October 28, 2016
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Dinosio@ 72 (approx.) - you were complaining that some of us "have no interest whatsoever in serious science", which I took to be a pretty direct insult to those of us who are serious scientists. I don't read every thread (just when I have time), so the reason I don't participate is because I lack the time or interest. One reason I lack the time is because I'm doing serious science. This week I've been poking at analyses, and waiting for my Markdown documents to compile, so I have time to pop in & look at threads I've been active on. (and yes, I was tempted to wait 3 days before posting this response :-))Bob O'H
October 28, 2016
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Bob O’H @60: Take a look at this: https://uncommondescent.com/culture/atheism-as-religion-atheist-cemetery-opens-in-sweden/#comment-619716 Note you're absent from that thread, where I made a similar observation as @56 in this current thread, hence it refers to other folks too. Don't take things so personally. :) However, regarding this current thread, let's see: 3 Bob O'H October 23, 2016 at 12:24 pm 15 Bob O'H October 24, 2016 at 2:08 am 37 Bob O'H October 25, 2016 at 5:16 am 42 Bob O'H October 26, 2016 at 4:40 am 44 Bob O'H October 26, 2016 at 6:59 am 46 Bob O'H October 26, 2016 at 8:27 am 48 Bob O'H October 26, 2016 at 9:10 am 50 Bob O'H October 26, 2016 at 9:43 am 52 Bob O'H October 26, 2016 at 1:32 pm 60 Bob O'H October 27, 2016 at 3:35 am Hmm... Are you really as busy as you claim @60? Note that October 23-27 you didn't miss a day here in this thread. And on the 26th you were really active here. Was that your day off from your busy work schedule? :) But since News started this thread the 23rd you have not missed a single day of participation in this thread. Hence your excuse @60 seems like a weak argument, doesn't it? It's obvious that a selective participation is indeed in place here. Don't agree? The two threads I mentioned @56 were started by News long ago. One has been around 2.5 years, the other close to two years. Both are heavily loaded with numerous references to biology research papers. Maybe over 3 thousand references combined? Are there other threads in this UD site having more biology research papers referenced than the two threads I mentioned @60? How many times have you commented in those two threads combined? Should we count it?Dionisio
October 28, 2016
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Bob O'H @60:
Dinosio @ 57 –
Huh? Did you mean "Dionisio @ 56" ? Have you considered taking a short break from your busy work schedule so you can rest?
So the reason I don’t participate in every thread is that I’m busy actually doing serious science
Huh? Did I ever ask you to explain why you don't participate in anything? You don't have to explain why you participate in some discussion threads but don't participate in other discussion threads. That's up to you to decide. Nobody else should do it for you. Hey, relax. You can checkout anytime you want and you can actually leave. :)Dionisio
October 27, 2016
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Bob O'H @60:
Dinosio @ 57 –
Huh?
So the reason I don’t participate in every thread is that I’m busy actually doing serious science
Huh?Dionisio
October 27, 2016
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Dinosio @ 57 - Going through my inbox just now, I've been sent some data on an experiment in canine psychology, got emails from colleagues about an analysis I sent them last night about Mongolian livestock, and was CC'ed a decision on a manuscript I reviewed. That's just overnight. So the reason I don't participate in every thread is that I'm busy actually doing serious science (this morning it's more Mongolian livestock and global trees).Bob O'H
October 27, 2016
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BA77, Thank you for posting all that interesting information. Hopefully your politely-dissenting interlocutors will read it too. :)Dionisio
October 26, 2016
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A few notes to that effect:
The Unbearable Wholeness of Beings - Stephen L. Talbott - 2010 Excerpt: Virtually the same collection of molecules exists in the canine cells during the moments immediately before and after death. But after the fateful transition no one will any longer think of genes as being regulated, nor will anyone refer to normal or proper chromosome functioning. No molecules will be said to guide other molecules to specific targets, and no molecules will be carrying signals, which is just as well because there will be no structures recognizing signals. Code, information, and communication, in their biological sense, will have disappeared from the scientist’s vocabulary. ,,, the question, rather, is why things don’t fall completely apart — as they do, in fact, at the moment of death. What power holds off that moment — precisely for a lifetime, and not a moment longer? Despite the countless processes going on in the cell, and despite the fact that each process might be expected to “go its own way” according to the myriad factors impinging on it from all directions, the actual result is quite different. Rather than becoming progressively disordered in their mutual relations (as indeed happens after death, when the whole dissolves into separate fragments), the processes hold together in a larger unity. http://www.thenewatlantis.com/publications/the-unbearable-wholeness-of-beings Scientific evidence that we do indeed have an eternal soul (Elaboration on Talbott's question “What power holds off that moment — precisely for a lifetime, and not a moment longer?”)– video 2016 https://youtu.be/h2P45Obl4lQ Molecular Biology - 19th Century Materialism meets 21st Century Quantum Mechanics – video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCs3WXHqOv8 “Let’s say the heart stops beating. The blood stops flowing. The microtubules lose their quantum state. But the quantum information, which is in the microtubules, isn’t destroyed. It can’t be destroyed. It just distributes and dissipates to the universe at large. If a patient is resuscitated, revived, this quantum information can go back into the microtubules and the patient says, “I had a near death experience. I saw a white light. I saw a tunnel. I saw my dead relatives.,,” Now if they’re not revived and the patient dies, then it's possible that this quantum information can exist outside the body. Perhaps indefinitely as a soul.” - Stuart Hameroff - Quantum Entangled Consciousness - Life After Death - video (5:00 minute mark) https://youtu.be/jjpEc98o_Oo?t=300 “Now the world appears to be divided into two realms, described by two different sets of physical laws. The quantum (world),, which is immaterial, coexisting possibilities, non-local, unified, connected, has some ultimate truth although we don’t know what it is yet, deeper levels of reality, and in many senses ‘spirit-like’. The classical world, the (illusory) billiard ball universe that we (appear to) live in right now, but not so, is material, Newtonian, definite, macroscopic, local, predictable, disconnected, post-modern, and somewhat boring actually. Now, what is life? If you approach life from classical physics, you see that biology is a set of self-organizing functions. There is no secret to life. Brain activities are equivalent to computers, consciousness is a epi-phenomenal illusion with no causal power. That’s the party line in standard neuroscience and philosophy. Accordingly, Thomas Huxley said years ago, ‘We are merely conscious automaton,’ helpless spectators., That’s the story we get from classical physics approach to the brain. Now,, applying quantum physics to biology, first by Erwin Schrodinger,,, quantum features (of biology include), non-local entanglement, super-position, unity, quantum coherence, quantum information. A kind of quantum vitalism, may play key roles in biological function.,,,” Stuart Hameroff – Does Quantum Biology Support A Quantum Soul? – video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIyEjh6ef_8
Verses and Music:
James 1:21 Wherefore putting away all filthiness and overflowing of wickedness, receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls. John 1:1-4) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him; and without him was not anything made that hath been made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. [OFFICIAL VIDEO] Hallelujah - Pentatonix https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LRP8d7hhpoQ
bornagain77
October 26, 2016
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Dionisio, although the decades long empirical work on fruit flies is certainly very good for pulling the empirical curtain back and showing that the 'designer substitute' of natural selection has no clothes on, I would like to clearly lay out a primary reason why natural selection is so severely lacking in creative power at the genome level. Dr. John Sanford, in the first part of this following video, clearly illustrates the ineffectiveness of natural selection with what he calls 'the princess and the pea paradox':
The abject failure of Natural Selection on two levels of physical reality – video (2016) (princess and the pea paradox & quarter power scaling) https://youtu.be/ISu-09yq2Gc
The 'princess and the pea paradox' is simple in its clarity. The paradox states that in order for natural selection to be effective in the theory of neo-Darwinian evolution, it must operate the genetic sequence level. Yet natural selection operates at the whole organism level which is many levels, i.e. mattresses, removed from the genetic sequence level. It does not operate at the genetic text level. In other words, Natural Selection only operates by killing off an entire organism of a population in order to try to improve the genetic text which is buried within the trillions upon trillions of cells of the population of organisms. It is very much similar to trying to write a new and improved computer program by randomly introducing a change to an existing program on a computer and then throwing out all the computers that crash as result of the random change and only keeping those that don't crash. As you can see, it is certainly not a very 'effective' way to write a new computer program, and it certainly drives the point home of natural selection being very 'ineffective' as the supposed 'designer substitute'. i.e. As you can clearly see from the princess and the pea illustration of Dr. Sanford, it is simply impossible for Natural Selection to be 'daily and hourly scrutinizing, throughout the world, every variation, even the slightest; rejecting that which is bad preserving and adding up all that is good' as Darwin and his followers imagine(d) it to be
“It may be said that natural selection is daily and hourly scrutinizing, throughout the world, every variation, even the slightest; rejecting that which is bad preserving and adding up all that is good; silently and insensibly working, whenever and wherever opportunity offers, at the improvement of each organic being in relation to its organic and inorganic conditions of life” – Darwin – Origin
But as devastating as the princess and the pea paradox is to the proposition that Natural selection could possibly function as a effective 'designer substitute', there is another problem for natural selection which is just as, if not more, devastating as the princess and the pea paradox is. Moreover, this problem, which is highlighted in the last part of the 'abject failure' video that I referenced, hits closer to home with Intelligent Design since it involves the physical reality of information in biological systems. Namely, this devastating problem for Natural Selection has to do with what is termed 'quarter power scaling':
Post-Darwinist - Denyse O'Leary - Dec. 2010 Excerpt: They quote West et al. (1999), “Although living things occupy a three-dimensional space, their internal physiology and anatomy operate as if they were four-dimensional. Quarter-power scaling laws are perhaps as universal and as uniquely biological as the biochemical pathways of metabolism, the structure and function of the genetic code and the process of natural selection." They comment, "In the words of these authors, natural selection has exploited variations on this fractal theme to produce the incredible variety of biological form and function', but there were severe geometric and physical constraints on metabolic processes." "The conclusion here is inescapable, that the driving force for these invariant scaling laws cannot have been natural selection. It's inconceivable that so many different organisms, spanning different kingdoms and phyla, may have blindly 'tried' all sorts of power laws and that only those that have by chance 'discovered' the one-quarter power law reproduced and thrived." Quotations from Jerry Fodor and Massimo Piatelli-Palmarini, What Darwin Got Wrong (London: Profile Books, 2010), p. 78-79. https://uncommondescent.com/evolution/16037/ The predominance of quarter-power (4-D) scaling in biology Excerpt: Many fundamental characteristics of organisms scale with body size as power laws of the form: Y = Yo M^b, where Y is some characteristic such as metabolic rate, stride length or life span, Yo is a normalization constant, M is body mass and b is the allometric scaling exponent. A longstanding puzzle in biology is why the exponent b is usually some simple multiple of 1/4 (4-Dimensional scaling) rather than a multiple of 1/3, as would be expected from Euclidean (3-Dimensional) scaling. http://www.nceas.ucsb.edu/~drewa/pubs/savage_v_2004_f18_257.pdf
The reason why ’4-Dimensional’ quarter power scaling laws are impossible for Darwinian evolution to explain is that Natural Selection operates at the 3-Dimensional level of the organism and the ’4-Dimensional’ quarter power scaling law are simply ‘invisible’ to natural selection. The reason why 4-Dimensional things are, for all practical purposes, completely invisible to 3-Dimensional things is best illustrated by ‘flatland’:
Dr Quantum - Flatland - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWyTxCsIXE4
And the reason why living things operate as if they were 4-Dimensional, instead of operating as if they were 3-Dimensional, is because, contrary to the materialistic framework upon which Darwinism sits, it is 'physically real information' which is foundational to life and it is not matter and energy that are foundational to life as is presupposed in the materialistic foundation of Darwinian evolution. Here are a few notes on the physical reality of ‘immaterial’ information:
Thermodynamic Content, Erasing Classical Information with Quantum Information, Quantum Teleportation https://uncommondescent.com/naturalism-2/naturalism-is-a-total-failure-mockery-without-achievement/#comment-618818
Breakthroughs in quantum biology, particularly the recent establishment of quantum entanglement/information in molecular biology on a massive scale, i.e. in every DNA and protein molecule, further drives the point home. The point being, of course, that life operates as if it is 4-Dimensional, instead of 3-Dimensional as Darwinists would expect, because 'higher dimensional' information is literally what is 'holding life together' until death:bornagain77
October 26, 2016
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BA77, Good point. Please, don't forget that you're dealing with folks who have no interest whatsoever in serious science. Otherwise they would have been active participants in the discussion threads "Mystery at the heart of life" and "A third way of evolution?", but they aren't. Just a reminder -from an openly anti-ID source- for your politely-dissenting interlocutors:
The commonly accepted alternative is Neo-Darwinism, which is clearly naturalistic science but ignores much contemporary molecular evidence and invokes a set of unsupported assumptions about the accidental nature of hereditary variation. Neo-Darwinism ignores important rapid evolutionary processes such as symbiogenesis, horizontal DNA transfer, action of mobile DNA and epigenetic modifications. Moreover, some Neo-Darwinists have elevated Natural Selection into a unique creative force that solves all the difficult evolutionary problems without a real empirical basis. Many scientists today see the need for a deeper and more complete exploration of all aspects of the evolutionary process. http://www.thethirdwayofevolution.com/
Just let your politely-dissenting interlocutors argue with Dr. Shapiro, Dr. Noble, et al. Maybe then they'll get the point, finally? :)Dionisio
October 26, 2016
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Simply amazing. Three birds one stone. To reiterate the conclusion of the paper so as to dispel any ambiguity:
“Despite decades of sustained selection in relatively small, sexually reproducing laboratory populations, selection did not lead to the fixation of newly arising unconditionally advantageous alleles. This is notable because in wild populations we expect the strength of natural selection to be less intense and the environment unlikely to remain constant for ~600 generations. Consequently, the probability of fixation in wild populations should be even lower than its likelihood in these experiments.” http://www.homepages.ed.ac.uk/aspiliop//2010_2011/Burke%20et%20al%202010.pdf
bornagain77
October 26, 2016
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BornAgain, Bob is in the right here. It's not hard to just acknowledge a mistake and learn from it. But not acknowledging a mistake and learning from it is a bad route to take.AhmedKiaan
October 26, 2016
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BA77 it is clear that Bob is being forthright and you are not. Any honest reader can see that. And if you had a shred of decency you would admit that. And possibly you could learn something if you were not so emotionally immature.Pindi
October 26, 2016
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Yes, the paper does say what it says, but not what you seem to think it says. It looks like we'll have to leave the matter here.Bob O'H
October 26, 2016
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The paper says what it says. I'll let the readers, and administrator, decide who is being forthright. If you persist in pestering me I will request you be banned for trolling.bornagain77
October 26, 2016
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ba77 - you seem to be equating two things that are not the same. I'm simply trying to find out why you're doing this, or if I've misunderstood you. I don't see trying to understand your point of view better as a "stupid game".Bob O'H
October 26, 2016
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Bob, you are now trolling me. I suggest you stop. I don't have time to play stupid games all day with you.bornagain77
October 26, 2016
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ba77 - the paper show a large, repeatable change in both phenotype & genotype. How come that isn't due to natural selection? The point of the paper (as I understand it) is that selection can have a large effect without necessarily sending alleles to fixation, or with selective sweeps. The only way I can see the paper's conclusions matching your is if you think that natural selection is only effective when it leads to fixation. What evidence do you have for this view? (or, if this isn't your view, can you explain what I've misunderstood about your position?)Bob O'H
October 26, 2016
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Actually, despite how desperately you apparently want to spin this to not reflect badly of Darwinism, the main point of the paper is precisely about the ineffectiveness of natural selection. Moreover, they note that the 'flawed paradigm' leads to dangerous practices in drug development.
UCI scientists decode genomes of sexually precocious fruit flies - September 16, 2010 Excerpt: For decades, most researchers have assumed that sexual species evolve the same way single-cell bacteria do: A genetic mutation sweeps through a population and quickly becomes “fixated” on a particular portion of DNA. But the UCI work shows that when sex is involved, it’s far more complicated. “This research really upends the dominant paradigm about how species evolve,” said ecology & evolutionary biology professor Anthony Long, the primary investigator. Based on that flawed paradigm, Rose noted, drugs have been developed to treat diabetes, heart disease and other maladies, some with serious side effects. He said those side effects probably occur because researchers were targeting single genes, rather than the hundreds of possible gene groups like those Burke found in the flies. https://news.uci.edu/press-releases/uci-scientists-decode-genomes-of-sexually-precocious-fruit-flies/ Genome-wide analysis of a long-term evolution experiment with Drosophila Excerpt: There are several possible explanations for our failure to observe the signature of a classic sweep in these populations, despite strong selection. Classic sweeps may be occurring, but have had insufficient time to reach fixation. This explanation is consistent with observed data, but requires that newly arising beneficial alleles have small associated selection coefficients (Supplementary Fig. 7). Alternatively, selection in these lines may generally act on standing variation, and not new mutations. This soft sweep model predicts partial losses of heterozygosity flanking selected sites, provided that selection begins acting when mutations are at low frequencies 12,17, and this is consistent with our observed data. However, if a large fraction of the total adaptive response is due to loci fixed by means of soft sweeps, there should be insufficient genetic variation to allow reverse evolution in these populations. But forward experimental evolution can often be completely reversed with these populations 5, which suggests that any soft sweeps in our experiment are incomplete and/or of small effect (Supplementary Fig. 5). A third explanation is that the selection coefficients associated with newly arising mutations are not static but in fact decrease over time. This could be the case if initially rare selected alleles increase to frequencies where additional change is hindered, perhaps by linked deleterious alleles or antagonistic pleiotropy. Laboratory evolution experiments typically expose populations to novel environments in which focal traits respond quickly and then plateau at some new value (compare with refs 13, 18). Chevin and Hospital 19 recently modelled the trajectory of an initially rare beneficial allele that does not reach fixation because its selective advantage is inversely proportional to the distance to a new phenotypic optimum, and that optimum is reached, because of other loci, before the variant fixes. This model therefore has appeal in the context of experimental evolution, as it assumes populations generally reach a new phenotypic optimum before newly arising beneficial mutations of modest effect have had time to fix. Our work provides a new perspective on the genetic basis of adaptation. Despite decades of sustained selection in relatively small, sexually reproducing laboratory populations, selection did not lead to the fixation of newly arising unconditionally advantageous alleles. This is notable because in wild populations we expect the strength of natural selection to be less intense and the environment unlikely to remain constant for, 600 generations. Consequently, the probability of fixation in wild populations should be even lower than its likelihood in these experiments. This suggests that selection does not readily expunge genetic variation in sexual populations, a finding which in turn should motivate efforts to discover why this is seemingly the case. http://www.homepages.ed.ac.uk/aspiliop//2010_2011/Burke%20et%20al%202010.pdf
Put simply, if Selection struggles so mightily to fix just a single unambiguously beneficial mutation, then the following awe inspiring wonders are forever out of the reach of Darwinian 'just so stories:
"One of my favorite images was this one from Igor Siwanowicz," notes Hanson. "That special gear-like structure planthoppers use to balance their jumping force. It looks like something an engineer would put together if you asked them to build you a jumping bug,,," Gears interlock in the hind legs of a planthopper nymph. Confocal 250x. Image: Dr. Igor Siwanowicz/Nikon Small Worlds http://images.earthtouchnews.com/media/1946933/nikon-siwanowicz_2016-10-22.jpg THE WORLD'S BEST MICROSCOPE PHOTOS ZOOM IN ON NATURE'S TINY WONDERS - OCTOBER 25 2016 http://www.earthtouchnews.com/in-the-field/film-and-photo/the-worlds-best-microscope-photos-zoom-in-on-natures-tiny-wonders If you’ve ever wondered how a diving beetle swims through the water or manages to rest just on the surface, the answer is in part because its foot is infinitely more complicated than your own. As seen above, this microscopic image of a male Acilius sulcatus (diving beetle) by photographer Igor Siwanowicz reveals the extraordinary complexity of this aquatic insect’s tiny appendage. This is just one of many examples of Siwanowicz’s work http://www.thisiscolossal.com/2016/10/insect-microscopy-igor-siwanowicz/
bornagain77
October 26, 2016
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ba77 - You're equating effectiveness of natural selection with fixation. But I don't know of any argument for why this should be the case. And in the paper you're citing, we see a large adaptive change without fixation. So that would seem to be clear evidence that natural selection can be effective without fixation.Bob O'H
October 26, 2016
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