Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Emergence as an Explanation for Living Systems

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Yesterday I watched a re-run of a Star Trek: The Next Generation episode.

There. I said it.

I love Star Trek. Notwithstanding the many absurd evolution-based plotlines.

In this specific episode, Data referred to a particular characteristic of a newly-developing lifeform as an “emergent property.”

I’ve looked into the “emergence” ideas in the past, and the related self-organization hypotheses, and have never been too impressed. But it has been a while, so I thought I’d quickly navigate over to the Wikipedia page on the subject to see what it says. Now I’m a big fan of the general concept behind Wikipedia and it is a very useful tool, if used properly. Yet everyone knows that Wikipedia is a questionable source on controversial subjects. Want to know Abraham Lincoln’s birthday or the text of the Gettysburg Address? Wikipedia is great. Want to get an objective description of a controversial subject like — oh just to pick at random, say, evolution or intelligent design — and you will be sorely misled.

Emergence itself is not necessarily controversial, at least not in its simple, observationally-based definition. Wikipedia describes it as “a process whereby larger entities, patterns, and regularities arise through interactions among smaller or simpler entities that themselves do not exhibit such properties.” Fine. Nothing particularly controversial there. I’m willing to accept that as a reasonable working definition for purposes of discussion.

The problem arises when researchers or theorists imagine that emergence is an explanation for a particular phenomenon. For example, the very next paragraph on Wikipedia states, “the phenomenon life as studied in biology is commonly perceived as an emergent property of interacting molecules . . .” By labeling “life” as an “emergent property of interacting molecules” a researcher can fool herself into thinking that she has understood something foundational about life, that she has provided some kind of explanation for life. Yet she has done nothing of the sort. She has simply applied a label to her ignorance, has simply given a name to something she doesn’t understand.

The word “emerge” is typically defined as “to come forth into view or notice, as from concealment” or “to come up or arise” or “to come into existence” or “to develop”.

This is straightforward enough, and allows us to say that, in its most basic sense, the concept of “emergence” simply means that A + B leads to or develops into C. This can be deterministic or stochastic, but either way, it is quite simple. The following two sentences are substantively equivalent:

A plus B develops into C.
C is an emergent property of A plus B.

Notice that with the first sentence we would immediately ask the follow-up question: “How?” Yet with the second sentence we don’t naturally follow up with that question. Indeed, the wording gives the impression that the “how?” has been answered by the very term “is an emergent property.” But in reality, no explanation at all is offered. No “how” has been given. We don’t know one iota more about the real, underlying processes at work after reading the second sentence than the first. So we should still follow up the second sentence with an emphatic “How?”, yet the very rhetorical stance taken in the second sentence tends to discourage that critical follow-up question.

Calling a living organism an “emergent property” of various molecules, is about as helpful and intellectually vacuous as saying that the Space Shuttle is an “emergent property” of glass, metal and plastic. It isn’t helpful. It hasn’t added anything to our knowledge of what actually brought the system into being. Worse, it all too often gives the false impression that an explanation has been offered.*

Let me be clear. I am not arguing that the word “emergence” be stricken from our language. I am not suggesting that the concept, as commonly defined, might not be a helpful shorthand label that we can use in certain situations.

What I am saying is that we must be scrupulously careful to not allow the label of “emergence” to be treated as more than it is: a label that does not carry with it an actual explanation, a label that does not provide a detailed analysis, a label that (unless we are extremely vigilant) tends to mask ignorance, rather than shed light.

So, for our dear readers, two questions:

1. What, if anything, does the concept of “emergence” add to our understanding of natural phenomena? And how is calling X an “emergent property” any different from simply observing that X occurred?

2. Even if there are some phenomena that can be helpfully thought of as emergent phenomena (Wikipedia cites snowflakes, hurricanes, ripple patterns in a sand dune, etc.), what relevance does that have to the origin and development of living systems?

—–

* Laughably, Wikipedia even tries to suggest that irreducible complexity is nothing more than a case of emergence, as though that label explains the existence of irreducibly complex biological systems. Worse, not capable of seeing the irony, the intellectual pygmies who tyrannically maintain the irreducible complexity page call irreducible complexity “a pseudoscientific theory.”

Comments
Silver Asiatic:
I believe that you said that a taco is a mechanism.
Yes, a taco is a mechanism for getting nutrients and calories into those organisms we call human beings. You can actually prove it by eating a taco when you're hungry and noting it's effect on your body. Now give me an example of “representationalism” in the same way. You'll find you can't because “representationalism” is a conceptual term while tacos actually exist and perform a specific function.Carpathian
July 14, 2015
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Carpathian- That you are forced to quote-mine my posts proves that you are a willfully ignorant coward.
It has to be about the mechanism since ID wants to replace a theory that does have mechanisms.
ID isn't replacing a theory and we have provided mechanisms. You are a troll and a loser. Good luck with that.Virgil Cain
July 14, 2015
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Virgil Cain:
And AGAIN ID is NOT about the mechanism.
It has to be about the mechanism since ID wants to replace a theory that does have mechanisms. What I don't understand is that not one ID proponent has taken the step I have which is to simply see if ID is possible. Why wouldn't IDists be their best critics? If you have a theory, try your best to prove it wrong. If you fail to prove your theory wrong, that is one point in your favour. To not do it at all is not practicing science.Carpathian
July 14, 2015
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Carpathian
First of all, “representationalism” is not a mechanism, it is a term you are using to as an aid in understanding something conceptual.
I believe that you said that a taco is a mechanism. I'd call that a term you're using as an aid to your argument, but nothing that can be validated in reality.Silver Asiatic
July 14, 2015
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Carpathian
it is the concept and “mechanisms” of “Darwinism” that ID is supposed to replace
What ID reference do you have for that claim? Behe? Dembski? Meyer? Any of the others you've read? Failing to provide a reference, it would be best to admit that you're mistaken.Silver Asiatic
July 14, 2015
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Repeat until the troll acknowledges it: And AGAIN ID is NOT about the mechanism. We first determine design is present before even asking about the specific mechanism. There are plenty of artifacts that we don’t know exactly how they were made, but guess what? They are all still artifacts. That said “built-in responses to environmental cues” is a specific design mechanism. Both genetic and evolutionary algorithms model intelligent design evolution- targeted search is another specific design mechanism.Virgil Cain
July 14, 2015
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Upright BiPed:
Carpathian: ID is a failure since it has no mechanisms that can produce its claims. Upright BiPed: Carp, I think I told you this once before and you didn’t respond. Representationalism is the mechanism used to implement design in the genome.
First of all, "representationalism" is not a mechanism, it is a term you are using to as an aid in understanding something conceptual. Here is a "mechanism" that ID would need: X is a process whereby changes are made to cells while they are in their host bodies. Process X will change all cells in the body by transmitting a signal to each unchanged cell with the new "information" that will cause a chemical change in the DNA of each cell which will take affect immediately. This is the sort of mechanism that is required if you are actually going to perform ID. Talking about ID is one thing but if you go the extra step and try to come up with a way of implementing it, you will find it's impossible both singly and population wide. If there was an "update" for human DNA, how would you change all six billion copies within one generation?Carpathian
July 14, 2015
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Carpathian
Organisms change themselves as needed and if they’re inferior”, nature takes care of it. So what is ID for?
ID takes care of nature.Silver Asiatic
July 14, 2015
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Carpathian:
At #157 you have actually described what we call “Darwinism”.
Only to people who are ignorant of what darwinism entails.
Organisms change themselves as needed and if they’re inferior”, nature takes care of it.
WRONG! Darwin said organisms just change by chance and sometimes that change helps. You are just totally clueless.Virgil Cain
July 14, 2015
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Carpathian
Again, if ID is not possible , of what use is it to discuss it.
You continue to discuss it, so it must be possible.Silver Asiatic
July 14, 2015
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Carpathian, you have serious issues:
Saying ID is not about a mechanism makes no sense since it is the concept and “mechanisms” of “Darwinism” that ID is supposed to replace.
Of course it makes sense as first we have to determine design exists before even thinking about the specific mechanisms used. That is how it works in archaeology and forensic science. And archaeology cannot explain how many artifacts came to be yet they are all still artifacts.
If theory X is to be replaced by theory Y, the new theory Y has to answer the questions that theory X did.
1- There isn't any theory "y" 2- darwinism/ neo-darwinism couldn't answer any questions
What are students supposed to study under this new theory?
The DESIGN- how to detect it and how to properly study it so it can be fully understood.Virgil Cain
July 14, 2015
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ID is a failure since it has no mechanisms that can produce its claims.
Carp, I think I told you this once before and you didn't respond. Representationalism is the mechanism used to implement design in the genome. Without it, you got nothing. You cannot organize the heterogeneous living cell without it, and ID advances the only mechanism ever demonstrated as capable of the singular type of representationalism found in the genome (i.e. representations that are individually recognized in their system by their spatial orientation). What this means is that ID is in line with universal experience, while materialist and reductionist accounts have preceisely zero empirical support. It is well understood that demonstrated facts do not deter you from your chosen path, even for the most minute fraction of a second. Feel free to move the goalpost.Upright BiPed
July 14, 2015
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Virgil Cain, At #157 you have actually described what we call "Darwinism". Those were Darwin's observations. Organisms change themselves as needed and if they're inferior", nature takes care of it. So what is ID for?Carpathian
July 14, 2015
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Silver Asiatic:
Carpathian: If ID, i.e. biological design, cannot be done by anyone less than God, then ID is purely and simply creationism. Silver Asiatic: Dog breeding is biological design.
That's not even close to the same thing. Take a German Sheppard, change it's DNA so that it now has two stomachs but leave the rest of the dog unchanged. This is the sort of thing ID claims was done during the Cambrian with massive amounts of new body plans. You can't do it with breeding and I see no way of introducing changes into a population.Carpathian
July 14, 2015
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Virgil Cain:
Why do you think your willful ignorance is an argument?
This is the way I feel about the answers I get from IDists. I am going to accept any definition you want for "mechanism" provided you can show me one. Saying ID is not about a mechanism makes no sense since it is the concept and "mechanisms" of "Darwinism" that ID is supposed to replace. If theory X is to be replaced by theory Y, the new theory Y has to answer the questions that theory X did. Again, if ID is not possible , of what use is it to discuss it. This blog has been around for ten years and still no attempts at seeing if it is even plausible. What are students supposed to study under this new theory?Carpathian
July 14, 2015
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Carpathian:
Why won’t you answer the questions I ask?
They are irrelevant to ID. High school students can grasp that simple fact.
You can’t actually change living organisms in the field.
They change themselves as needed. That was designed-in.
You also have no way of selectively getting rid of organisms, that are no longer up to date “information-wise”.
So what? If they are inferior then nature will take care of it.Virgil Cain
July 14, 2015
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design: : to create, fashion, execute, or construct according to plan plan: 2a : a method for achieving an end b : an often customary method of doing something : procedure c : a detailed formulation of a program of action d : goal, aim mechanism: b : a process, technique, or system for achieving a result method: a procedure or process for attaining an object: as a (1) : a systematic procedure, technique, or mode of inquiry employed by or proper to a particular discipline or art (2) : a systematic plan followed in presenting material for instruction b (1) : a way, technique, or process of or for doing something (2) : a body of skills or techniques OK so both mechanism and design are "(a) method or means of achieving a desired result"Virgil Cain
July 14, 2015
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Mung:
Carpathian: Show me how ID would get around these problems. 1. I cannot fine tune the properties of the physical universe. Mung: So? You can fine tune a software program, right? What mechanism did you use to do that? Ever had to write a paper and fine tune it before turning it in? Intelligent designers fine tune things all the time. Not a problem.
So? Talk about ducking the question. I tell you I can't do what many IDists suggest was done, i.e. fine-tune the universe, and you tell me to do something else as proof that the thing that can't be done is possible. Why can IDists not answer the question that was asked? If you ask me what colour my car is I would not say, "Cars are painted all the time in many different colours", I would instead say, "Blue". Why won't you answer the questions I ask? I'm going to bet it's because you would eventually have to come to the same conclusion I have, and that is that ID is not possible. You can't actually change living organisms in the field. You also have no way of selectively getting rid of organisms, that are no longer up to date "information-wise".Carpathian
July 14, 2015
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Carpathian
If ID, i.e. biological design, cannot be done by anyone less than God, then ID is purely and simply creationism.
Dog breeding is biological design.Silver Asiatic
July 14, 2015
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Carpathian, You obviously cannot read for comprehension. A mechanism is a process or system that is used to produce a particular result. That is what design is. And AGAIN ID is NOT about the mechanism. We first determine design is present before even asking about the specific mechanism. There are plenty of artifacts that we don't know exactly how they were made, but guess what? They are all still artifacts. That said "built-in responses to environmental cues" is a specific design mechanism. Both genetic and evolutionary algorithms model intelligent design evolution- targeted search is another specific design mechanism. Why do you think your willful ignorance is an argument?Virgil Cain
July 14, 2015
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Mung:
Is a taco and a burrito a mechanism?
Yes. Now show me an ID mechanism for implementing a DNA change in the field. Do the organisms have to be transferred to a lab or could you do it without their noticing it? How many could you do in a year? 10 million, 100 milion..? How much staff would be required for the particular mechanism you are using?Carpathian
July 14, 2015
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Virgil Cain:
design: to plan and make (something) for a specific use or purpose mechanism: a process or system that is used to produce a particular result
Read your definition for mechanism again. It agrees with my definition. A mechanism is a very specific set of actions to produce a a particular result. ID has none. If I'm wrong, show me one. Show me how to go and change the "information" in the Cambrian. Do I drug the complete population of a certain species and transport them to my lab? Should I use an Adam and Eve method where I only change two members of a population and hope that in the next 100 generations it becomes the only "information" in that species? These are questions that would have to be answered if ID were possible. They can't be answered though which proves ID highly unlikely, less likely in my opinion than "Darwinism".Carpathian
July 14, 2015
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So now a hammer and a nail are a mechanism, lol. Is a taco and a burrito a mechanism?Mung
July 14, 2015
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Show me how ID would get around these problems. 1. I cannot fine tune the properties of the physical universe. So? You can fine tune a software program, right? What mechanism did you use to do that? Ever had to write a paper and fine tune it before turning it in? Intelligent designers fine tune things all the time. Not a problem.Mung
July 14, 2015
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design: to plan and make (something) for a specific use or purpose mechanism: a process or system that is used to produce a particular resultVirgil Cain
July 14, 2015
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Carpathian, Design is a mechanism by definition. So buy a dictionary as your ignorance, while entertaining, is sad and pathetic. That you selectively quote my posts prove that you are nothing but a willfully ignorant arse.Virgil Cain
July 14, 2015
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Virgil Cain:
Design is a mechanism.
Design is not a mechanism any more than luck is a mechanism. Mechanisms perform actions. A hammer and nail are a mechanism for joining two pieces of wood, but the term carpentry in itself does not describe a mechanism. Mechanisms can fit under the term carpentry. ID is a failure since it has no mechanisms that can produce its claims. If ID, i.e. biological design, cannot be done by anyone less than God, then ID is purely and simply creationism.Carpathian
July 14, 2015
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Carpathian:
The question isn’t whether things like cars can be designed, the question is how would you design a biological organism.
And we don't have to know that in order to determine that life was intelligently designed.
Here are some direct questions for ID that a designer would have to have an answer for.
Those questions don't have anything to do with ID.
Students will ask these questions.
Only if they are willfully ignorant as to what ID is and what it claims.
If you don’t have answers for these students, then ID is a failure as a replacement for “Darwinism”.
That is your ignorant opinion.Virgil Cain
July 14, 2015
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Mung:
Carpathian: And you don’t think they’re they’re smart enough to see ID doesn’t have an an answer to how ID works? Mung: I think they know they are designers themselves and probably think it’s kind of silly to ask how design works.
The question isn't whether things like cars can be designed, the question is how would you design a biological organism. If you answer questions that aren't asked you're not answering the questions that are asked. Here are some direct questions for ID that a designer would have to have an answer for. How would you put together a specification for a future environment that does not exist yet? How long do you have to introduce millions of organisms into an environment if you wait for the environment to change before you respond with new biological information? Students will ask these questions. If you don't have answers for these students, then ID is a failure as a replacement for "Darwinism".
Carpathian: Show me how it’s done. Mung: All you have to do is observe yourself in action.
Here is what I have observed about myself: I cannot fine tune the properties of the physical universe. I have no control over a future environment. I can't see the future so I don't know what's going to happen until it does. Because of this, I will fail as an intelligent designer of biological organisms. Show me how ID would get around these problems.Carpathian
July 14, 2015
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Carpathian:
And you don’t think they’re they’re smart enough to see ID doesn’t have an an answer to how ID works?
They are smart enough to understand that ID is about the detection and study of design in nature.
You’re going to tell high school students that you’re going to replace “Darwinism”, which includes mechanisms, with ID, which doesn’t have any?
Design is a mechanism. And so is "built-in responses to environmental cues". But I digress. We don't know how Stonehenge was built- its mechanism- and that is within our capabilities. ID is not about the mechanism and never has been.
ID is missing what you claim is missing from “Darwinism” ...
Oh my, you are proud to be willfully ignorant. Comment 130: Willfully ignorant it is, then. Look, Darwinism claims to have a step-by-step process for explaining the diversity of life. That means it is up to evos to demonstrate such a thing. ID does NOT make such a claim and that means ID does NOT have to support it. High school students will grasp that. Middle school kids do.
The relevant question they will ask will be, “What are the steps in modifying an organism?”.
That isn't relevant but it has been answered.Virgil Cain
July 13, 2015
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