Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Evolution is a Fact; So is Climate Change


For those of us who have been critiquing evolutionary theory for a long time, and hence, long-time observers of the kind of reasoning evolutionists/Darwinists employ, you can’t help but see the absolute parallel that exists between evolutionary theory and the “science” behind “global warming.” [N.B. If you have to change the name of the ‘science’ from “global warming” to “climate change,” then just admit you’ve lost the argument, else why change the very name you use?.]

Both involve ‘consensus’ thinking; both involve criteria that used in one manner provide a solution given ONE SET of facts, but which, given a new, different, and conflicting set of facts, are used in almost the opposite manner; both involve an almost faith-like allegiance to the theory.

So, in the midst of our current historically cold temperatures, articles appear telling us how historic cold is a by-product of ‘global warming.’

Below are two sentences that is equally valid if ‘evolutionary theory’ is substituted for ‘global warming’ and ‘evolutionary biologists’ for ‘climate scientists’:

Global warming is an infinitely flexible, unscientific, unfalsifiable theory which can be stretched to accommodate any observation. Some Climate Scientists even shamelessly reject the very concept of scientific falsification with regard to the conduct of climate science.

See here for the actual article.

When the time comes that Climate Change is seen to be the biggest scientific fraud in human history, will Darwinian evolution soon follow?

Baptist Fundamenatalists, then I would say I care for my wallpaper more than them
I am no Eichman, and that is a terrible insult to make.
Indeed it is a terrible insult. To Eichman. Barry Arrington
From Severesky's link:
Today [Pav--that is, 2017] Today, polar bears are among the few large carnivores that are still found in roughly their original habitat and range--and in some places, in roughly their natural numbers. Although most of the world's 19 populations have returned to healthy numbers, there are differences between them. Some are stable, some seem to be increasing, and some are decreasing due to various pressures. Status of the polar bear populations Last updated 2017 with data from the IUCN Polar Bear Specialists Group 1 population was in decline 2 populations were increasing 7 populations were stable 9 populations were data-deficient (information missing or outdated)
Dean @48, I am no Eichman, and that is a terrible insult to make. Please don't preach, or patronize, I know it is the default position of the faithful, but it just comes across as spooky, and unconvincing. I am simply telling you a glaring truth, you don't need anything more than friends, family, work, a purpose to your life (not God or Faith, but family etc). I am no Eichman, and that slur is something Barry should, but won't address. You condescendling profer Jesus as a solution to my problems? I don't feel I have big enough problems to bother the Redeemer of man kind, maybe your problems are that big, mine aren't. If Christ did indeed return tomorrow, I would say, 'why the long wait, we needed you hundreds of years ago?' But He won't come tomorrow, or indeed the next day, probably not in your life time, or anybody elses. But you go on dreaming and call me lost. It is actually you who are chained, and lost in the prisons of religion; I pity you, but I shan't pray for you. rvb8
"that your ‘beauty’, or what ever, is entirely misplaced" You splatter a picture of a wonderful painter with dirt and mock it for being ugly. Two friends meet. - Your Mozart is rubbish. - Why so? - Rabinovich whistled it to me the other day. EugeneS
tjguy @46, the moment you wrote, "believe me." is the moment I didn't. I loathe humanity, however I love myself, I love life, and I love breathing. Someday I will stop; let it be, I shrug my shoulders, meh!:) I also love my family and friends, they know about my misanthropy, and wisely, let it be. Do I care for animals more than people? Depends, on who the people are. Memebers of ISIS, or Baptist Fundamenatalists, then I would say I care for my wallpaper more than them, let alone a dog, bird, or chimp. If you say, do you care for your friends and family? Of course I do. I care more for my DNA, and the humans who help me to protect that DNA, it's simply an evolved response. Can I empathise with misery? Certainly, the main reason I loathe humanity, is that humanity is our greatest burden and sin. So, in short, humanity has some good points, but the world would be far better off without you, me, and the rest. Have a nice day.:) I'm all for the, 'live and let live', philosophy, far better than, 'the Redeemer is watching and calculating', philosophy. You say, "You seem to hate humanity...". Yes! That is what a 'misanthrope' is, a 'hater' of humanity! That does not mean I can not love, I do, I just see humanity for what it is, a disaster, with few redeeming qualities. The usual rebuttal to me is, 'what about Motzart, Shakespeare, Tolstoy, Jefferson etc?' My answer is, 'what about the rest?' It seems on so many levels, (waste of space, incompetence in design, death, war, pointless natural disasters (which science is explaining), wasting diseases, silly leaders (Trump, a 'leader?'), poverty, incompetence in design (ooops), misogyny, terrorism, xenophobia, rascism, pollution, contempt, hatred, nationalism, and just plain stupidity), that your 'beauty', or what ever, is entirely misplaced! rvb8
“we are killing ourselves, while religion is complicitly standing by, and God is absent!” “I have no problem with humanity destroying itself, it seems only fair. However our utter disregard for other species is disgusting, selfish, and in no way a reflection upon man’s ‘higher scruples’.” “I have changed, and see humanity for what it is, a mistake! And if the product of a Creator, then a malicious mistake.” “Billy Graham has had a patchy history on certain issues, specifically race relations. Mother Theresa and her sisters believe the human suffering in their clinics shouldn’t be relieved, as it is a manifestation of Christ’s suffering, and should be endured. And the woman sacrificing her own life to save her DNA is following instincts evolved over thousands of generations. In short, of your three noble examples of loving humanity, two are dubious at best, and third follows evolutionary laws.”
Rvb, you are really something! I hope there are not too many out there who think like you! So you think God is absent and somehow the world He created is going to pot because He is AWOL. Funny. God is working in this world to accomplish His purposes. Believe me! Global warming will not derail His purposes. No need to worry about that. He has promised anyway that “While the earth remains, seedtime and harvest, cold and heat, summer and winter, day and night, shall not cease.” You think humanity is a mistake? With that kind of a view of people, how does that impact your relationships? Quite negatively right? Sorry, I like Jesus’ view better. “Love your neighbor as yourself.” You care for animals more than for people? Gotta love those atheistic morals! Nothing inconsistent about them though, as atheism cannot command either love or hate. Whatever is, simply is. Like it or lump it. Then you try and diss anyone who has shown love to others and given their lives to serve others. You try and pick out something in their life that you disagree with and then try and dismiss everything they have ever done. Let me ask you: Do you think the world would be better off if everyone had the view of humanity that you have or if we all had the view of Jesus or even Billy Graham for that matter or Mother Theresa? You seem to hate humanity and yet you stand on your atheistic platform and have the gall to criticize and judge these people who truly gave their lives to love and serve others. Again, gotta love them morals! tjguy
Florabama, take a look at the potential of pebble bed modular fission reactors, and beyond possibilities such as the Bussard Polywell fusion reactor, etc. if the latter pans out and thereafter the Bussard drive is possible, that is the ability to reach the gas giant moons within three months. Onward, solar system colonisation as a goal for this century. That is part of what the present destructive and rhetorically toxic focus is suppressing, discussion of real opportunities that can be transformational. KF kairosfocus
rvb8 you seem to be reaching for simplistic and basic human instincts...try a more faith and hope based response and you might see something less materialistic. It takes time and truth.... but truth will be something you need...even if you feel there can be none. Keep trying bud. Trumper
JSmith @ 26, it isn't oil companies getting rich that's the problem -- its poor people freezing to death or dying of heat stroke because they can't afford to heat or cool their homes. Coal is still the cheapest most practical and abundant fuel to generate electricity, but coal plants have been put out of business. I worked for 30 years in the electricity business. My company had 3 coal fired power plants that are now sitting nearly idle while electricity prices have risen nearly 100 percent in that time. I'm convinced that Global Warming is a complete scam, but even if I'm wrong, the threat does not warrant making people choose between heating or cooling their homes and food. Environmentalists have returned us to the dark ages. Florabama
Dean @39, Billy Graham has had a patchy history on certain issues, specifically race relations. Mother Theresa and her sisters believe the human suffering in their clinics shouldn't be relieved, as it is a manifestation of Christ's suffering, and should be endured. And the woman sacrificing her own life to save her DNA is following instincts evolved over thousands of generations. Inshort, of your three noble examples of loving humanity, two are dubious at best, and third follows evolutionary laws. rvb8
According to the data the polar bears are doing fine. Only one of 19 polar bear populations is in decline. 2 are increasing. ET
I certainly see the similarities between the tactics used by the promoters of consensus on these two issues, but I hate to see them linked too closely for two reasons: 1) evolution and global warming are scientifically unrelated issues, and 2) it is "conceivable" that the global warming alarmists could still turn out to be right; and people will say, see, scientific consensus is always right...a big PR victory for Darwinists, even though Darwinism will still be the dumbest idea ever taken seriously by science. (Though if the alarmists are right, that may be the least of our problems!) Granville Sewell
No. The polar bears are not doing ok. I have no problem with humanity destroying itself, it seems only fair. However our utter disregard for other species is disgusting, selfish, and in no way a reflection upon man's 'higher scruples'. As I said previously, apart from family and friends I have given up on the rest of humanity; Trump as president? Putin, Erdogan, Mugabe, the Ayatolla, Saudi Arabia, Xi xin ping, Theresa May, Kim jung Un, Narendra Modi, the Middle East, Netanyahu.....etc etc. Give me a break! The nobility of Man, the sanctity of life, the wonder of Christ, the compassion of the faithful? Lies. The only, "truth", is what we can discover about the natural world. That world is telling us, 'something's not right.' Now the thing is, as a young man I really cared about these issues, and the whales, and Israel/Palestine. I have changed, and see humanity for what it is, a mistake! And if the product of a Creator, then a malicious mistake. rvb8
Hard to argue with the illogical points of some - but we can all at least know and agree that global warming...or climate change is a vastly natural occurrence. I fully support the intent of the Paris Climate deal but am honest enough to know how much of a waste of time and money it is... and fully support our pull out of it. God Bless those with good intent and will this coming year... but rvb8... will certainly claim it makes no difference... too bad he can't prove that. Trumper
Looks like the polar bears are doing OK ET
Polar bear status, distribution & population Seversky
BTW, where’s Al Gore? Did the Polar Bears get wiped out?
I recently saw an article where it was said that there are now more Polar Bears than at any other time in history. Do you think we'll start seeing Polar Bears in Chicago? (BTW, I don't mean in the Zoo! ;) ) PaV
Do you think there is any hype or exaggeration employed in regards to the climate change/global warming issue?
Certainly. As there is in every human endeavour. Even ID. Scientists are just humans. With the same petty jealousies and ambitions as the rest of us. Just look at Newton. He was by all accounts a terrible human being. That that does take away from the excellent work he did. JSmith
The following is from a transcript of a talk given by Patrick Moore one of the founding members of Greenpeace. (I have provided a link to the full transcript.)
“At the height of the Cold War, the Vietnam War,” Moore tells us, when “the threat of all-out nuclear war and the newly emerging consciousness of the environment I was transformed into a radical environmental activist. While doing my PhD in ecology in 1971 I joined a group of activists who had begun to meet in the basement of the Unitarian Church, to plan a protest voyage against US hydrogen bomb testing in Alaska. “We proved that a somewhat rag-tag looking group of activists could sail an old fishing boat across the north Pacific ocean and help change the course of history. We created a focal point for the media to report on public opposition to the tests. “When that H-bomb exploded in November 1971, it was the last hydrogen bomb the United States ever detonated. Even though there were four more tests planned in the series, President Nixon canceled them due to the public opposition we had helped to create. That was the birth of Greenpeace. “Flushed with victory, on our way home from Alaska we were made brothers of the Namgis Nation in their Big House at Alert Bay near my northern Vancouver Island home. For Greenpeace this began the tradition of the Warriors of the Rainbow, after a Cree Indian legend that predicted the coming together of all races and creeds to save the Earth from destruction. We named our ship the Rainbow Warrior and I spent the next fifteen years in the top committee of Greenpeace, on the front lines of the environmental movement as we evolved from that church basement into the world’s largest environmental activist organization. “Next we took on French atmospheric nuclear testing in the South Pacific. They proved a bit more difficult than the US nuclear tests. It took years to eventually drive these tests underground at Mururoa Atoll in French Polynesia. In 1985, under direct orders from President Mitterrand, French commandos bombed and sank the Rainbow Warrior in Auckland Harbour, killing our photographer… “Going back to 1975, Greenpeace set out to save the whales from extinction at the hands of huge factory whaling fleets. We confronted the Soviet factory whaling fleet in the North Pacific, putting ourselves in front of their harpoons in our little rubber boats to protect the fleeing whales. This was broadcast on television news around the world, bringing the Save the Whales movement into everyone’s living rooms for the first time. After four years of voyages, in 1979 factory whaling was finally banned in the North Pacific, and by 1981 in all the world’s oceans. In 1978 I sat on a baby seal off the East Coast of Canada to protect it from the hunter’s club. I was arrested and hauled off to jail, the seal was clubbed and skinned, but a photo of me being arrested while sitting on the baby seal appeared in more than 3000 newspapers around the world the next morning. We won the hearts and minds of millions of people who saw the baby seal slaughter as outdated, cruel, and unnecessary.” (emphasis added)
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2015/10/15/greenpeace-founder-delivers-powerful-annual-lecture-praises-carbon-dioxide-full-text/ Moore then goes on to talk about man cause climate change, rising CO2 levels and what we need to do to the benefit the human race. (Please read the transcript before you react!) I agree with everything he says about the scientific method, man caused climate change and global warming and how we can all work together for the benefit of mankind and the environment. Here is a youtube video of him giving basically the same talk. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NtcNjoDe5Pg john_a_designer
Evolutionary Biology and Climate Science are both great examples of bad premises producing s*** science. And lots of it. Andrew asauber
could you tell me why climate scientists decided that 30 years was the climate period
I can't. If someone else can, they are free to share their discovery. Andrew asauber
Asauber, could you tell me why climate scientists decided that 30 years was the climate period (no personal opinions, no personal interpretations). Seqenenre
climate is a 33 year moving average of the weather, meant to capture “typical” patterns
There is nothing in nature that makes 33 years into climate. Its an arbitrary determination. Andrew asauber
JSmith, Do you think there is any hype or exaggeration employed in regards to the climate change/global warming issue? Andrew asauber
and I believe that is why the left centered on the gas that plants eat as poisonous.
Oxygen is also a poison to a significant percentage of organisms. We know how the greenhouse effect works and how CO2, methane and other compounds affect it. What we are still trying to figure out is how this warming will impact climate over the long term. But do we really want to gamble with it just so oil companies can get richer. JSmith
Kairo @ 24, Unfortunately, because of their blatant dishonesty, I don't trust the Michael Mann's of the world to honestly monitor weather so that real climate trends can be understood. They've been caught over and over again, stacking the deck to affect outcomes. Evolution is all about story telling, so evidence isn't important to proponents, but Global Warming is something that begs for real data (which is why we now have the much more flexible moniker, "Climate Change"). If you have not read Mark Steyn's book on Mann, "Disgrace to the Profession," you really should if you want to know the depths of dishonesty Mann was willing to stoop to to make his case. The "hockey stick" graph, which was the center piece of much of the Global Warming hysteria, was completely bogus from the beginning, and many true believers in climate change were willing to say so publicly. How Mann has not been totally disavowed is a testament to the willingness of academia to accept anyone who promotes the leftist party line. As someone who worked in the Electric Utility industry for 30 years, I saw our prices increase by 100 percent as we spent millions trying to comply with "greenhouse gas," regulations. We had long ago removed most of the real pollutants -- SO2 and NOX -- from our coal fired power plants, but you cannot remove CO2 from any fossil fuel -- even natural gas -- and I believe that is why the left centered on the gas that plants eat as poisonous. Florabama
Folks, climate is a 33 year moving average of the weather, meant to capture "typical" patterns. Sometimes, I'd like to see 3-sigma bars on the averages, then assessment of trends. Also, it seems there are multidecadal cycles on top of the 11-year sunspot cycle, and of course the annual solar orbit. Climate MUST change, the issue is driving dynamics and feedbacks; which are not particularly well understood. We do need to ponder what burning fossil fuels and paving over a lot of real estate have done -- concrete and asphalt have an impact. Cutting down forests, short and long term. Lastly, for thousands of years the [still ongoing] ice age has been in a retreat phase, with implications for example for sea level. Our monitoring networks are not all that great globally speaking, though satellites have helped. We should be quite cautious in what we say. KF kairosfocus
If it wasn't for CO2, methane and other such gases the Earth would be a snowball. No one knows what the global temperature should be. No one knows how much ice is supposed be on Earth. The earth is only warming by some arbitrary line- ARBITRARY. What we do know is that humans and plants prosper during the warmer periods and we are devastated by colder periods. I am all for prosperity. ET
*****Public Notice**** The Global Warming protest scheduled for today has been cancelled so our protesters can attend Red Cross training for surviving freezing temperatures. Thank you for your attention. http://www.live5news.com/story/37152721/red-cross-offers-cold-weather-survival-tips Florabama
rvb8 @ 9, I guess anything can be a "fact," if you don't need corroborating evidence, and it doesn't matter if all predictions have failed -- no more polar ice, dying polar bears, no more snow, etc etc -- all completely failed, but I fully understand that you are a "true-believer" by faith, and failed predictions don't matter to you, because yours is a philosophical position and not an evidentiary one. So, I fully understand that you plan to remain a true believer in your false religion to the end, but if you're going to talk about Christianity and eschatology, you might want to brush up on your bible reading just a little, but who am I kidding -- being ignorant has never stopped you before so why start now, huh? "For all creation is waiting eagerly for that future day when God will reveal who his children really are. Against its will, all creation was subjected to God’s curse. But with eager hope, the creation looks forward to the day when it will join God’s children in glorious freedom from death and decay." Romans 8:9-21 (NLT) "But we are looking forward to the new heavens and new earth he has promised, a world filled with God’s righteousness." 2 Peter 3:13 (NLT) Florabama
I will add something else to "Evolution is a fact.": "Evolution is a fact; so are moonlandings." Seqenenre
Mung @ 12 - you can see how that's going to go. Steam next week. Bob O'H
PaV, Reminds me of Darwinism, no neo-Darwinism, Neutral Theory, no EVO-Devo, Constructive Neutral Evolution, Constructor Theory of Life and I'm sure some are missing. Oh yes, Extended Evolutionary Synthesis at Royal Society Where ID scientist in attendance witnessed the changing of the guard as old Darwinisnt fight the new materialist over new directions. Extend or Not to Extend, just don't dare let Design enter in. Times they are a Changing, just not Climate - other than normal ebb and tide flow around the world over great times of history from Warming to Cooling, the mini-Ice Age. Global Cooling in the 70s launched us into Global Warming, then having been "stopped" by the Great Pause became Climate Change. To the regret of many, they found themselves floundering, their models severely flawed, built upon feedback loops that ran to hot. After the big Scare, the Hollywood Drama by Al Gore, the oppression of truth, the Email Scandals, lies and hiding of data, the inflated Hockey Schtick Stick, what can one do? Except, on any given warm cold day, Climate Changes. Warm..., no Cold Climate Change BTW, where's Al Gore? Did the Polar Bears get wiped out? Are the children in England without snow this winter? DATCG
I don’t know enough about climate change to know if it real or not. But I do know that CO2, methane and other man produced compounds are accumulating in the atmosphere faster than they can be removed. When we do that to our lakes, rivers and oceans, we know that there are impacts that are detrimental to us. Why do we have the arrogance to believe that the same doesn’t apply to the atmosphere. Molson Bleu
RV, *fewer* humans. We will continue to pray for your eternal soul, in the hope that your foolish choices aren’t eternally actualized. You’ll have much bigger things to worry about instead of just thinking it’s lights out. AnimatedDust
The solution of course is less humans.
I strongly disagree but if you want to do us the favor I won't stop you. The solution, of course, is to stop industrial animal agriculture. We can easily feed the world by better using the land used for IAA. And we will have a better world to live in in return. ET
Mung @12, try, just try, to imagine an existance outside your hermetically sealed existance. Just try. rvb8
rvb8, you have no excuse. Mung
Snow a few days ago. rain now. climate change is real. Mung
ET @10, note the date and time, we are in agreement! Of course we may differ on the solution. Indeed?Industrial animal agriculture, is hugely destructive. Taking land, food, water, and scarce resources so, "I", can eat a steak, or pork chop, or other meat. The solution of course is less humans. As this is basically impossible, inhumane, and rightly criminal, we are largely screwed. Don't worry however, as your, mine, and everyone elses existance, (though mightily good fun), is irrelevant in a universe such as ours: enjoy!:) rvb8
rvb8- Alarmists are giving a warning where no warning is needed. The major hazard we are causing is with industrial animal agriculture. Until the alarmists focus on that, the real problem, they might as well be pissing into the wind. ET
Actually, Florabama @8, I don't care. Climate change is a fact. Just as evolution is a fact. To deny either, is just that, denial. I am 54, and expect to live quite healthily for another twenty or so years. After I give up the ghost (Heh:), what happens here on earth does not bother me. Although I do hope I leave my progeny, with enough, where with all, you understand? You, and the other Christian posters here, on the other hand, have far more invested. At Christ's right hand you will look down upon your relations, children etc, and see them suffer, as a dying planet robs them of a healthy life. Very selfish really! rvb8
ET @ 6, you obviously don't know the rules as exposed by rvb8, so let me explain. When normal weather events conform to Climate Change models they are significant evidence for Climate Change. When normal weather events do not conform to climate change models, and in fact show the opposite, they should be ignored as insignificant weather events, and in no way antithetical to Climate Change. Consistent logic has been melted away by Global Warming. Florabama
ET @6, "alarmists", are people who are giving a warning. This is no warning, it is now. This wonderful planet, created by God, as a 'gift' to humanity is on its last legs. As an atheist I don't really care, and as a misanthrope, I think it is quite funny and just. However, I do have family and friends, and however much I may loathe humanity, ?and I do), I do have that evolutionary impulse to love my closest DNA relatives, and friends`, (and I do). A conumdrum, as you can see. So, to surmise; we are killing ourselves, while religion is complicitly standing by, and God is absent! rvb8
rvb8- So it's only OK for the alarmists to link heat waves and severe storms - you know normal weather events- to global warming? And it isn't OK when we use THEIR tactics against them? How many faces do you have? ET
N.B. If you have to change the name of the ‘science’ from “global warming” to “climate change,” then just admit you’ve lost the argument, else why change the very name you use?
I think that you might be confused about this. Global warming is just that, global warming. An increase in the average global temperature. Climate change is the consequence of global warming. Just like acid rain is the consequence of NOx and SO4 atmospheric discharge, and lake eutrophication is the consequence of nutrient pollution. JSmith
News @2, unbelievable! "It is cold in the South Pole, there is no Global warming! It is cold in Canada in December, there is no Global warming. Yesterday it was minus 30, there is no Global warming.“ Or perhaps this earth shattering stupidity is more up your alley: "The earth is a gift from God, I was born in Canada, the world is good!" Of course if you were born in the 'Democratic Republic of Congo', your view on Global warming would be equally ill-informed. But your ignorance there would be for a good reason; you had no education! News, you have no excuse. rvb8
I liked the apocalypse better when it was global warming
Indeed. And odder still, a Warmist still can't detect any hype after, oh, I don't know, 20 years of this? Andrew asauber
As someone who lives in Ottawa, Canada, who receives extreme cold weather bulletins daily or several times a day from weather services, I liked the apocalypse better when it was global warming. That was exotic, like Hawaii. This is just the usual cold and colder, with a frosting of apocalyse. News
It's a case where the Evolution and Climate Change communities simply do not allow adverse evidence/information of any kind to reflect badly on the narrative. If that means the narrative no longer pretends to be scientific, that's the way it goes. But it's so blatantly obvious now in both camps, you just wonder what it's like to be a fly on wall. I imagine morale is pretty low. But the inability of some to take the option of just walking away and moving back to the real world is concerning. I hope violence can be avoided. Andrew asauber

Leave a Reply