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From Philip Cunningham: The human eye, like the human brain, is a wonder

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(Which allegedly required no actual design) With references, courtesy Philip Cunningham:

The human eye consists of over two million working parts making it second only to the brain in complexity (1).

The retina covers less than a square inch, and contains 137 million light-sensitive receptor cells. The retina possesses 7 million cones, which provide color information and sharpness of images, and 120 million rods which are extremely sensitive detectors of white light (2).

There are between seven to ten-million shades of color the human eye can detect (3).

The rod can detect a single photon. Any man-made detector would need to be cooled and isolated from noise to behave the same way (4).

On average, about a quarter of a billion photons enter our eyes each second (5).

For visible light, the energy carried by a single photon would be around a tiny 4 x 10-19 Joules; this energy is just sufficient to excite a single molecule in a photoreceptor cell of an eye (6).

The eye is so sensitive that it can, under normal circumstances, detect a candle 1.6 miles away (7),

But if you’re sitting on a mountain top on a clear, moonless night you can see a match struck 50 miles away (8).

It only takes a few trillionths of a second, (picoseconds), for the retina to absorb a photon in the visible range of the spectrum (9).

The inverted retina, far from being badly designed, is a design feature, not a design constraint. Müller cells in the ‘backwards’ retina span the thickness of the retina and act as living fiber optic cables to shepherd photons through to separate receivers, much like coins through a change sorting machine (10).

The eye is infinitely more complex than any man-made camera (11).

The eye can handle between 500,000 and 1.5 million messages simultaneously, and gathers 80% of all the knowledge absorbed by the brain (12).

The brain receives millions of simultaneous reports from the eyes. When its designated wavelength of light is present, each rod or cone triggers an electrical response to the brain, which then absorbs a composite set of yes-or-no messages from all the rods and cones (13).

There is a biological computer in the retina which compresses, and enhances the edges, of the information from all those millions of light sensitive cells before sending it to the visual cortex where the complex stream of information is then decompressed (14).

This data compression process has been referred to as “the best compression algorithm around,” (15 & 15a).

While today’s digital hardware is extremely impressive, it is clear that the human retina’s real-time performance goes unchallenged. To actually simulate 10 milliseconds of the complete processing of even a single nerve cell from the retina would require the solution of about 500 simultaneous nonlinear differential equations 100 times and would take at least several minutes of processing time on a Cray supercomputer. Keeping in mind that there are 10 million or more such cells interacting with each other in complex ways, it would take a minimum of 100 years of Cray time to simulate what takes place in your eye many times every second (16). (of note: the preceding comparison was made in 1985 when Cray supercomputers ruled the supercomputing world).

In an average day, the eye moves about 100,000 times, and our mind seems to prepare for our eye movements before they occur (17).

In terms of strength and endurance, eyes muscles are simply amazing. You’d have to walk 50 miles to give your legs the same workout as the muscles in one of your eyes get in a day (18).

The brain exploits a feedback system which produces phenomenally precise eye movements (19).

The human is the only species known to shed tears when they are sad (20).

Tears are not just saline. Tears have a similar structure to saliva and contain enzymes, lipids, metabolites and electrolytes (21).

And, tears contain a potent microbe-killer (lysozyme) which guards the eyes against bacterial infection (22).

The average eye blinks one to two times each minute for infants and ten times faster for adults.

This blinking adds up to nearly 500 million blinks over an average lifetime (23).

References:

  1. – 20 Facts About the Amazing Eye – 2014
  2. An eye is composed of more than 2 million working parts…. 20: Eyes are the second most complex organ after the brain. – Susan DeRemer, CFRE – Discovery Eye Foundation
  3. Vision and Light-Induced Molecular Changes

Excerpt : “The retina is lined with many millions of photoreceptor cells that consist of two types: 7 million cones provide color information and sharpness of images, and 120 million rods (Figure 3) are extremely sensitive detectors of white light to provide night vision.” – Rachel Casiday and Regina Frey Department of Chemistry, Washington University

  1. – Number of Colors Distinguishable by the Human Eye – 2006 “Experts estimate that we can distinguish perhaps as many as 10 million colors.” – Wyszecki, Gunter. Color. Chicago: World Book Inc, 2006: 824…. “Our difference threshold for colors is so low that we can discriminate some 7 million different color variations (Geldard, 1972).” – Myers, David G. Psychology. Michigan: Worth Publishers, 1995: 165. From Number of Colors Distinguishable by the Human Eye
  2. Study suggests humans can detect even the smallest units of light – July 21, 2016

Excerpt: Research,, has shown that humans can detect the presence of a single photon, the smallest measurable unit of light. Previous studies had established that human subjects acclimated to the dark were capable only of reporting flashes of five to seven photons…

it is remarkable: a photon, the smallest physical entity with quantum properties of which light consists, is interacting with a biological system consisting of billions of cells, all in a warm and wet environment,” says Vaziri. “The response that the photon generates survives all the way to the level of our awareness despite the ubiquitous background noise. Any man-made detector would need to be cooled and isolated from noise to behave the same way.”…

The gathered data from more than 30,000 trials demonstrated that humans can indeed detect a single photon incident on their eye with a probability significantly above chance.

“What we want to know next is how does a biological system achieve such sensitivity? How does it achieve this in the presence of noise?

  1. How many photons get into your eyes? – 2016

Excerpt : About half a billion photons reach the cornea of the eye every second, of which about half are absorbed by the ocular medium. The radiant flux that reaches the retina is therefore approx. 2*10^8 photons/s.

  1. Photon Excerpt For visible light the energy carried by a single photon is around a tiny 4×10–19 joules; this energy is just sufficient to excite a single molecule in a photoreceptor cell of an eye, thus contributing to vision.[4]
  2. How Far Can We See and Why? Excerpt: “Detecting a candle flame: Researchers believe that without obstructions, a person with healthy but average vision could see a candle flame from as far as 1.6 miles.”
  3. An Eye for Exercise Your eye is a very active organ – December 28, 2001

(HealthDayNews) — The cells in the retina are so sensitive that if you’re sitting on a mountain top on a clear, moonless night you can see a match struck 50 miles away.

  1. Vision and Light-Induced Molecular Changes

Excerpt: “Thus, when 11-cis-retinal absorbs a photon in the visible range of the spectrum, free rotation about the bond between carbon atom 11 and carbon atom 12 can occur and the all-trans-retinal can form. This isomerization occurs in a few picoseconds (10-12 s) or less.” – Rachel Casiday and Regina Frey, Department of Chemistry, Washington University

  1. Fiber optic light pipes in the retina do much more than simple image transfer – Jul 21, 2014

Excerpt: Having the photoreceptors at the back of the retina is not a design constraint, it is a design feature. The idea that the vertebrate eye, like a traditional front-illuminated camera, might have been improved somehow if it had only been able to orient its wiring behind the photoreceptor layer, like a cephalopod, is folly. Indeed in simply engineered systems, like CMOS or CCD image sensors, a back-illuminated design manufactured by flipping the silicon wafer and thinning it so that light hits the photocathode without having to navigate the wiring layer can improve photon capture across a wide wavelength band. But real eyes are much more crafty than that.

A case in point are the Müller glia cells that span the thickness of the retina. These high refractive index cells spread an absorptive canopy across the retinal surface and then shepherd photons through a low-scattering cytoplasm to separate receivers, much like coins through a change sorting machine. A new paper in Nature Communications describes how these wavelength-dependent wave-guides can shuttle green-red light to cones while passing the blue-purples to adjacent rods. The idea that these Müller cells act as living fiber optic cables has been floated previously. It has even been convincingly demonstrated using a dual beam laser trap….

…In the retina, and indeed the larger light organ that is the eye, there is much more going on than just photons striking rhodopsin photopigments. As far as absorbers, there are all kinds of things going on in there—various carontenoids, lipofuscins and lipochromes, even cytochrome oxidases in mitochondria that get involved at the longer wavelegnths….

,,In considering not just the classical photoreceptors but the entire retina itself as a light-harvesting engine… that can completely refigure (its) fine structure within a few minutes to handle changing light levels, every synapse appears as an essential machine that percolates information as if at the Brownian scale, or even below….

  1. The Wonder of Sight – April 15, 2020

Excerpt: The eye processes approximately 80% of the information received from the outside world. In fact, the eyes can handle 500,000 messages simultaneously. It happens all the time, and you don’t even have to think about it. Your eyes just do it! The eye is infinitely more complex than any man-made camera or telescope.

  1. Walk By Faith – Now See Here, Touch & Smell to Discern Good & Evil – July 6, 2018

Excerpt: “I Am Joe’s Eye” (from the Reader’s Digest series) says “For concentrated complexities, no other organ in Joe’s body can equal me … I have tens of millions of electrical connections and can handle 1.5 million simultaneous messages. I gather 80 percent of all the knowledge Joe absorbs.”

  1. Fearfully and Wonderfully Made – Philip Yancey, Paul Brand

Excerpt: The brain receives millions of simultaneous reports from the eyes. When its designated wavelength of light is present, each rod or cone triggers an electrical response to the brain, which then absorbs a composite set of yes-or-no messages from all the rods and cones.

  1. Retina – Spatial encoding

Excerpt: When the retina sends neural impulses representing an image to the brain, it spatially encodes (compresses) those impulses to fit the limited capacity of the optic nerve. Compression is necessary because there are 100 times more photoreceptor cells than ganglion cells. This is done by “decorrelation”, which is carried out by the “centre–surround structures”, which are implemented by the bipolar and ganglion cells.

There are two types of centre–surround structures in the retina – on-centres and off-centres. On-centres have a positively weighted centre and a negatively weighted surround. Off-centres are just the opposite. Positive weighting is more commonly known as excitatory, and negative weighting as inhibitory.

These centre–surround structures are not physical apparent, in the sense that one cannot see them by staining samples of tissue and examining the retina’s anatomy. The centre–surround structures are logical (i.e., mathematically abstract) in the sense that they depend on the connection strengths between bipolar and ganglion cells. It is believed that the connection strength between cells is caused by the number and types of ion channels embedded in the synapses between the bipolar and ganglion cells.

The centre–surround structures are mathematically equivalent to the edge detection algorithms used by computer programmers to extract or enhance the edges in a digital photograph. Thus, the retina performs operations on the image-representing impulses to enhance the edges of objects within its visual field.

  1. JPEG for the mind: How the brain compresses visual information – February 11, 2011

Excerpt “Computers can beat us at math and chess,” said Connor, “but they can’t match our ability to distinguish, recognize, understand, remember, and manipulate the objects that make up our world.” This core human ability depends in part on condensing visual information to a tractable level. For now, at least, the brain format seems to be the best compression algorithm around.

15a. Optimised Hardware Compression, The Eyes Have It. – 2011

  1. Can Evolution Produce an Eye? Not a Chance! by Dr. David Menton on August 19, 2017

Excerpt: In an article in Byte magazine (April 1985), John Stevens compares the signal processing ability of the cells in the retina with that of the most sophisticated computer designed by man, the Cray supercomputer:

“While today’s digital hardware is extremely impressive, it is clear that the human retina’s real time performance goes unchallenged. Actually, to simulate 10 milliseconds (one hundredth of a second) of the complete processing of even a single nerve cell from the retina would require the solution of about 500 simultaneous nonlinear differential equations 100 times and would take at least several minutes of processing time on a Cray supercomputer. Keeping in mind that there are 10 million or more such cells interacting with each other in complex ways, it would take a minimum of 100 years of Cray time to simulate what takes place in your eye many times every second.”

  1. Looking At What The Eyes See – February 25, 2011

Excerpt: We move our eyes three times a second, over 100,000 times each day. Why isn’t life blurrier? Reporting in Nature Neuroscience, psychologist Martin Rolfs and colleagues found that our mind seems to prepare for our eye movements before they occur, helping us keep track of objects in the visual field.

  1. An Eye for Exercise Your eye is a very active organ – December 28, 2001 (HealthDayNews) — Did you know that you’d have to walk 50 miles to give your legs the same workout as the muscles in one of your eyes get in a day?
  2. How do our eyes move in perfect synchrony? By Benjamin Plackett – June 21, 2020

Excerpt: “You have a spare one in case you have an accident, and the second reason is depth perception, which we evolved to help us hunt,” said Dr. David Guyton, professor of ophthalmology at The Johns Hopkins University. But having two eyes would lead to double vision if they didn’t move together in perfect synchrony. So how does the body ensure our eyes always work together?

To prevent double vision, the brain exploits a feedback system, which it uses to finely tune the lengths of the muscles controlling the eyes. This produces phenomenally precise eye movements, Guyton said.

Each eye has six muscles regulating its movement in different directions, and each one of those muscles must be triggered simultaneously in both eyes for them to move in unison, according to a 2005 review in the Canadian Medical Association Journal. “It’s actually quite amazing when you think about it,” Guyton told Live Science. “The brain has a neurological system that is fantastically organized because the brain learns over time how much stimulation to send to each of the 12 muscles for every desired direction of gaze.”

  1. Why Only Humans Shed Emotional Tears – 2018

Abstract Producing emotional tears is a universal and uniquely human behavior…

  1. Facts About Tears – Dec. 21, 2018 Excerpt Tears Have Layers

Tears are not just saline. They have a similar structure to saliva and contain enzymes, lipids, metabolites and electrolytes. Each tear has three layers:

An inner mucus layer that keeps the whole tear fastened to the eye.

A watery middle layer (the thickest layer) to keep the eye hydrated, repel bacteria and protect the cornea.

An outer oily layer to keep the surface of the tear smooth for the eye to see through, and to prevent the other layers from evaporating.

Lacrimal glands above each eye produce your tears…

  1. How Tears Go ‘Pac-Man’ To Beat Bacteria – January 20, 2012

Excerpt: In 1922, a few years before he won the Nobel Prize for his discovery of penicillin, bacteriologist Alexander Fleming discovered in human tears a germ-fighting enzyme which he named lysozyme. He collected and crystallized lysozyme from his own tears, then wowed contemporaries at Britain’s Royal Society by demonstrating its miraculous power to dissolve bacteria before their very eyes.

“That’s a seriously bodacious experiment”…

  1. Eyelids—Intermittent Wipers – Dr. Don DeYoung – October 20, 2013

Excerpt: The blinking of our eyes is automatic and essential. Its saline washer fluid moistens and protects the outer cornea of the eye while removing dust. Other protective features include our eyebrow “umbrellas” and recessed eyeball sockets.

The average eye blinks one to two times each minute for infants and ten times faster for adults. This blinking adds up to nearly 500 million blinks over an average lifetime. The actual mechanism, however, is not well understood. It may involve a “blinking center” in the brain.

Today billions of windshield wipers duplicate the eye’s intermittent blinking. Yet none last as long or work as efficiently as our God-given eyelids.

Comments
Kairosfocus: JVL, I invited and would host an up to 6,000 word presentation of your case. That's kind of you but, again, I've got nothing new to add to the debate. As a matter of fact, actual demonstration of 72 or 143 ascii characters of coherent functional information be blind chance and/or mechanical necessity would show me that FSCO/I is not a strictly reliable sign of design as cause. What kind of demonstration would that be? Just curious . . . I'm trying to think of how that could be achieved . . . a chemical experiment? A bit of software . . . probably not that as the software would have to be intelligently designed. How could one demonstrate the generation of so many bits of complex, specified functional information? Is it even possible, theoretically?JVL
April 8, 2021
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JVL, I invited and would host an up to 6,000 word presentation of your case. That has nothing to do with whether or not it would persuade me. As a matter of fact, actual demonstration of 72 or 143 ascii characters of coherent functional information be blind chance and/or mechanical necessity would show me that FSCO/I is not a strictly reliable sign of design as cause. KFkairosfocus
April 8, 2021
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Jerry: We just had our first admission today by an anti ID person that there isn’t any evidence. That's not what I actually said. Why is it so hard just to have a civilised, agree-to-disagree conversation? Prove me wrong: there is no evidence that there is a mechanism to build/that built proteins or complex structures in life forms. I think the evidence for unguided evolution is strong and consists of several lines of data. You might cast aspersions on one line or one step of one line but when you consider all that evidence together I find it strongly compelling. As ET might say: you can't 'prove' anything in biology. At best you can find plausible pathways that match the data and evidence. I admit that the unguided explanation for the origin of life isn't quite there yet but I think some progress is being made. But there is no way we'll ever be able to 'prove' how it happened. (I added natural to the challenge because it should have been in the original challenge. Of course an intelligence could have done it.) Noticed after I penned my response but since I assumed that's what you meant I'll keep my response as is.JVL
April 8, 2021
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Prove me wrong: there is no evidence that there is a natural mechanism to build/that built proteins or complex structures in life forms. We just had our first admission today by an anti ID person that there isn’t any evidence. (I added natural to the challenge because it should have been in the original challenge. Of course an intelligence could have done it.)jerry
April 8, 2021
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While I appreciate the invitation to 'prove ID wrong' or to 'prove unguided evolution true' we all know that the arguments and reasons I would give would be the same ones you've all heard many, many times before. Personally, I find the data, evidence and arguments made in favour of unguided evolution more compelling than the data, evidence and arguments made in favour of Intelligent Design. I do accept that hypothesising an, as of yet undemonstrated, unguided origin of life is a bit of a leap (of faith?) at this point but as I don't see strong, compelling evidence of any being around at the time who could have started everything going. And I do subscribe to the argument that even if some alien seeded life on Earth billions of years ago then how did that alien come to be? In other words, pan spermia or alien intervention just kick the can of the question of the origin of life down the road. Additionally, considering the vast distances and energy requirements for interstellar travel why would some being spend all that time and all that trouble to kick-start life on Earth and then skedaddle without leaving a note or message. Hey, maybe we'll find one on the Moon someday (ala 2001, a Space Odyssey) and if that's the case then I'll change my opinion based on the evidence. I'm happy to discuss my own personal beliefs or why I find some arguments compelling and others not so much. But there is no way I can present to you all an argument or evidence or data that you haven't already seen or digested. So I won't waste your time trying to come up with THAT BIG POINT that might change your minds. Mostly we all look at the same physical evidence and data but we come to different conclusions. I don't see that changing based on anything I say here. I will try and be honest and (fairly) respectful though . . . I do have my snarky moments like anyone else and you're all welcome to call me on those.JVL
April 8, 2021
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Silver Asiatic: Failing a materialistic demonstration (which nobody has), you’d be rejecting the most logical inference we can make. I disagree; I find the evidence, data and arguments in favour of unguided evolution more compelling than the evidence, data and arguments in favour of Intelligent Design. Yes, but I was looking for your opinion on why that is the case. I do not know why a higher percentage of Christians in Europe support evolutionary theory compared to those in the US of A. Maybe you should ask some of them. I did hear Dr Rowan Williamson (former Archbishop of Canterbury) argue that ID was bad theology and I figured he knew more about theology than I do.JVL
April 8, 2021
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JVL
That’s what evolutionary theory says has been demonstrated because of multiple threads of historical and biological evidence. Thus the impasse.
ID is found in more places than evolution. Origin of Life. Your belief is that the existence of life shows no evidence of intelligent design. ID disagrees. Failing a materialistic demonstration (which nobody has), you'd be rejecting the most logical inference we can make.
Surveys consistently suggest that evolutionary theory is more supported in Europe than in America and I know my friend agrees with the former Archbishop of Canterbury that it is correct. Make of that what you will.
Yes, but I was looking for your opinion on why that is the case.Silver Asiatic
April 8, 2021
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A comment from an ex liberal
Conservatives deal with facts and reach conclusions; liberals have conclusions and sell them as facts.
Or my assessment (Prove me wrong)
ID proponents deal with facts and reach conclusions; anti ID proponents have conclusions and sell them as facts.
jerry
April 8, 2021
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"That’s what evolutionary theory says has been demonstrated because of multiple threads of historical and biological evidence. Thus the impasse." This is an Uber-Troll. The same empty claim repeated mindlessly for the 8 billionth time with Built-In Impasse to make serious conversation impossible. Andrewasauber
April 8, 2021
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JVL:
That’s what evolutionary theory says has been demonstrated because of multiple threads of historical and biological evidence.
There isn't any scientific theory of evolution by means of blind and mindless processes. And peer-review is devoid of such demonstrations. You are lying.ET
April 8, 2021
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If anyone believes ID has been falsified, explain why in 250 words or less. On the other side: Prove me wrong: there is no evidence that there is a mechanism to build/that built proteins or complex structures in life forms. Again: 250 words or less. If someone balks at the word limit, start with this limit and build a framework. For example, I know of research that claims how proteins were built and believes they can prove it. But I believe it is essentially bogus research. Speculations don’t count! My prediction: this challenge like all before it and there have been many will be ignored. Proof of ID is then assured by failure to accept this or any previous challenge. So either accept the challenge or admit by ignoring it that ID is valid.jerry
April 8, 2021
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JVL states, "If you replace ‘Darwinists’ and ‘Darwinism’ with ‘ID supporters’ and ‘ID’ you would have a statement that many evolutionary theory supporters would agree with. Thus the impasse between the sides." It is interesting that JVL appeals merely to the opinions of 'evolutionary theory supporters' instead of presenting any actual scientific evidence that ID has been falsified, i.e. that "a digital communication system to emerge or self-evolve without "cheating", and thus collecting Perry Marshall's 10 million dollar prize in the process. (and, I might add, going down in history as the greatest scientist who has ever lived)
Artificial Intelligence + Origin of Life Prize, $10 Million USD Excerpt: What You Must Do to Win The Prize You must arrange for a digital communication system to emerge or self-evolve without "cheating." The diagram below describes the system. Without explicitly designing the system, your experiment must generate an encoder that sends digital code to a decoder. Your system needs to transmit at least five bits of information. (In other words it has to be able to represent 32 states. The genetic code supports 64.) You have to be able to draw an encoding and decoding table and determine whether or not the data has been transmitted successfully. So, for example, an RNA based origin of life experiment will be considered successful if it contains an encoder, message and decoder as described above. To our knowledge, this has never been done. https://www.herox.com/evolution2.0?_ga=2.178178989.964019425.1617878894-456264055.1617878894
Why didn't JVL present any evidence that this falsification criteria has been met? And why did he only appeal to the opinions of 'evolution theory supporters'? Is 10 million dollars not enough incentive for Darwinists to clearly demonstrate how mindless material processes can create a 'primitive' encoding/decoding system? Of course not. Besides the monetary incentive, the incentive in prestige is also immense. I remind JVL that anyone who falsified ID and collected the prize, would also go down in history as the greatest scientist to have ever lived, bar none!
Evolution 2.0 Prize: Unprecedented $10 Million Offered To Replicate Cellular Evolution – 14 Jan, 2020, Excerpt: An incentive prize ten times the size of the Nobel – believed to be the largest single award ever in basic science – is being offered to the person or team solving the largest mystery in history: how genetic code inside cells got there, and how cells intentionally self-organize, communicate, then purposely adapt. This $10 million challenge, the Evolution 2.0 Prize can be found at http://www.evo2.org. The new international competition is intended to speed breakthroughs around the still unknown process of cell communication that organizers predict can turn off cancer, allow robots to think for themselves and even create new plant life to combat climate change. The Evolution 2.0 Prize is designed by Chicago engineer-turned-marketer-turned-business consultant Perry Marshall and his A-list team of partners. They include top genetic experts from Harvard and Oxford, plus a diverse group of investors from private banking, healthcare and biotechnology, software, real estate, publishing and more. “A germ resisting antibiotics does more programming in 12 minutes than a team of Google engineers can do in 12 days,” said Marshall. “One blade of grass is 10,000 years ahead of any computer. If a single firm in Silicon Valley held a fraction of the secrets of this natural code inside a single cell, they’d set the NASDAQ on fire. https://www.prnewswire.com/in/news-releases/evolution-2-0-prize-unprecedented-10-million-offered-to-replicate-cellular-evolution-875038146.html
Thus, the incentive for atheists to rigorously falsify ID is definitely there and is definitely immense. The real reason why no Darwinists has collected the 10 million dollar prize, (or ever will collect the 10 million dollar prize), is simply because they have no experimental evidence whatsoever that mindless material processes can ever create what only intelligent minds have ever been observed creating. Namely, information. And there is a very good, easy to understand, reason why Darwinists will NEVER be able to demonstrate that mindless material processes can create information. Simply put, information is profoundly immaterial in its foundational essence, and thus it is impossible, in principle, for mindless material processes to ever be capable of explaining its origin. As evolutionary biologist George Williams explains, “Evolutionary biologists have failed to realize that they work with two more or less incommensurable domains: that of information and that of matter… These two domains will never be brought together in any kind of the sense usually implied by the term ‘reductionism.’… Information doesn’t have mass or charge or length in millimeters. Likewise, matter doesn’t have bytes… This dearth of shared descriptors makes matter and information two separate domains of existence, which have to be discussed separately, in their own terms.”
“Evolutionary biologists have failed to realize that they work with two more or less incommensurable domains: that of information and that of matter… These two domains will never be brought together in any kind of the sense usually implied by the term ‘reductionism.’… Information doesn’t have mass or charge or length in millimeters. Likewise, matter doesn’t have bytes… This dearth of shared descriptors makes matter and information two separate domains of existence, which have to be discussed separately, in their own terms.” George Williams – Evolutionary Biologist – “A Package of Information”
And as Dr. Stephen Meyer further explains,
“One of the things I do in my classes, to get this idea across to students, is I hold up two computer disks. One is loaded with software, and the other one is blank. And I ask them, ‘what is the difference in mass between these two computer disks, as a result of the difference in the information content that they possess’? And of course the answer is, ‘Zero! None! There is no difference as a result of the information. And that’s because information is a mass-less quantity. Now, if information is not a material entity, then how can any materialistic explanation account for its origin? How can any material cause explain it’s origin? And this is the real and fundamental problem that the presence of information in biology has posed. It creates a fundamental challenge to the materialistic, evolutionary scenarios because information is a different kind of entity that matter and energy cannot produce. In the nineteenth century we thought that there were two fundamental entities in science; matter, and energy. At the beginning of the twenty first century, we now recognize that there’s a third fundamental entity; and its ‘information’. It’s not reducible to matter. It’s not reducible to energy. But it’s still a very important thing that is real; we buy it, we sell it, we send it down wires. Now, what do we make of the fact, that information is present at the very root of all biological function? In biology, we have matter, we have energy, but we also have this third, very important entity; information. I think the biology of the information age, poses a fundamental challenge to any materialistic approach to the origin of life.” - Intelligent design: Why can't biological information originate through a materialistic process? - Stephen Meyer - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqiXNxyoof8 -Dr. Stephen C. Meyer earned his Ph.D. in the History and Philosophy of science from Cambridge University for a dissertation on the history of origin-of-life biology and the methodology of the historical sciences.
Thus, there is a very good reason why Darwinists will never be able to falsify ID and collect the 10 million dollar prize. Darwinists, with their 'bottom up' materialistic explanations, simply are not even in the correct theoretical ballpark to even be able to play the game in the first place.
Recognising Top-Down Causation - George Ellis Excerpt: Causation: The nature of causation is highly contested territory, and I will take a pragmatic view:?Definition 1: Causal Effect If making a change in a quantity X results in a reliable demonstrable change in a quantity Y in a given context, then X has a causal effect on Y.?Example: I press the key labelled “A” on my computer keyboard; the letter “A” appears on my computer screen.,,, Definition 2: Existence If Y is a physical entity made up of ordinary matter, and X is some kind of entity that has a demonstrable causal effect on Y as per Definition 1, then we must acknowledge that X also exists (even if it is not made up of such matter). This is clearly a sensible and testable criterion; in the example above, it leads to the conclusion that both the data and the relevant software exist. If we do not adopt this definition, we will have instances of uncaused changes in the world; I presume we wish to avoid that situation.,,, Excerpt: page 5: A: Both the program and the data are non-physical entities, indeed so is all software. A program is not a physical thing you can point to, but by Definition 2 it certainly exists. You can point to a CD or flashdrive where it is stored, but that is not the thing in itself: it is a medium in which it is stored. The program itself is an abstract entity, shaped by abstract logic. Is the software “nothing but” its realisation through a specific set of stored electronic states in the computer memory banks? No it is not because it is the precise pattern in those states that matters: a higher level relation that is not apparent at the scale of the electrons themselves. It’s a relational thing (and if you get the relations between the symbols wrong, so you have a syntax error, it will all come to a grinding halt). This abstract nature of software is realised in the concept of virtual machines, which occur at every level in the computer hierarchy except the bottom one [17]. But this tower of virtual machines causes physical effects in the real world, for example when a computer controls a robot in an assembly line to create physical artefacts.,,, The mind is not a physical entity, but it certainly is causally effective: proof is the existence of the computer on which you are reading this text. It could not exist if it had not been designed and manufactured according to someone’s plans, thereby proving the causal efficacy of thoughts, which like computer programs and data are not physical entities. http://fqxi.org/data/essay-contest-files/Ellis_FQXI_Essay_Ellis_2012.pdf
Quote and Verse
“Matter does not make rules. Matter is governed by rules.” fifthmonarchyman John 1:1-4 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind.
bornagain77
April 8, 2021
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@JVL:
(I probably have some of the names wrong) Why was Dave Scott banned? Why was Gil banned? Why was Mapou banned? Why was JoeG banned? Why was Elizabeth banned?
A more interesting case might be the "quisling" stcordova, who "gave aid and comfort to the enemies of truth": http://theskepticalzone.com/wp/barry-arringtons-bullying/AndyClue
April 8, 2021
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That’s what evolutionary theory says has been demonstrated because of multiple threads of historical and biological evidence. Thus the impasse.
You can't "demonstrate" fairytales. You just tell a story about what happened ...bilions, and ...ons years ago.Sandy
April 8, 2021
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Kairosfocus: Instantly, that rings false. One does not merely “feel” that one has a refutation, one shows that one has a refutation. In this case, a demonstration of FSCO/I coming about by blind chance and/or mechanical necessity will do. That's what evolutionary theory says has been demonstrated because of multiple threads of historical and biological evidence. Thus the impasse. To my certain knowledge from over a decade here, that is false and misleading. There are people who may have been banned here and/or have been in heated exchanges who may have a legitimate concern, but on the whole those banned have been banned for cause. Manifest cause. Worse, the experience has been that far too often objectors to ID feel that abusive commentary, doxxing and the like are legitimate tactics within their right to freedom of expression. So much so that I identified a pattern, termed the trifecta fallacy. (I probably have some of the names wrong) Why was Dave Scott banned? Why was Gil banned? Why was Mapou banned? Why was JoeG banned? Why was Elizabeth banned? Further, there is another pair of patterns, selective hyperskepticism and the demand to conform to crooked yardsticks set up as gold standards of reference, authority and verity. The first, is exertion of double standards of warrant that demand arbitrarily high proof of what one is inclined to reject, that are not exerted on what one wishes to be so. If one is selectively hyperskeptical regarding X, it is because one has credulously accepted crooked yardstick Y, and is using it to discriminate against X. It is the double-standard that is diagnostic. You always say that when someone disagrees with you. I get it that many things seem crystal clear to you but they appear completely different to others. That's not 'hyperskepticism', that's having a different opinion or view. Prove me wrong, if you can. I don't think there's any possible way to get you to change your mind about certain things.JVL
April 8, 2021
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Bornagain77: I would add that Darwinists simply refuse to accept falsification of their theory even though it has been falsified from numerous different angles, thus Darwinism, in all its various forms, is presently unfalsifiable and therefore ‘outside of empirical science’, If you replace 'Darwinists' and 'Darwinism' with 'ID supporters' and 'ID' you would have a statement that many evolutionary theory supporters would agree with. Thus the impasse between the sides.JVL
April 8, 2021
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Silver Asiatic: Sounds like you’re saying that ID has more support in America because the religious faith of Americans causes them to accept the false notion of ID (and not reflect the science). So, American ID supporters are more gullible and less scientifically accomplished. So, European origin-of-life researchers have stronger evidence than ID researchers have presented? They have better explanations for the origin of the universe and the fine-tuning found therein? I’m interested to see them, if so. I merely related a comment made to me; I cast no aspersions on anyone. Surveys consistently suggest that evolutionary theory is more supported in Europe than in America and I know my friend agrees with the former Archbishop of Canterbury that it is correct. Make of that what you will. So, you do not see any evidence of intelligence in the design present in nature. It has the appearance of design but it was all created by blind, unintelligent forces? Correct, that is my view.JVL
April 8, 2021
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JVL, I noticed this phrasing:
There are a lot of people who feel that they have falsified ID theory only to be shouted down on ID supportive sites. So . . . . my question is: how should the disagreement be moderated?
Instantly, that rings false. One does not merely "feel" that one has a refutation, one shows that one has a refutation. In this case, a demonstration of FSCO/I coming about by blind chance and/or mechanical necessity will do. As someone who spent IIRC three years actively soliciting something like such a refutation here and which is still technically open, I immediately give you the challenge to produce an up to 6,000 word summary of such a refutation, It can contain links elsewhere but must present the core evidence summarised. [Recall, I recently put up yet again, a random document attempt summary, one of the most embarrassing pages at Wikipedia. For years, they have lingered at about 10^100 factor short of the lower end of the FSCO/I 500 - 1,000 bits threshold.] Next, you claim shouting down. To my certain knowledge from over a decade here, that is false and misleading. There are people who may have been banned here and/or have been in heated exchanges who may have a legitimate concern, but on the whole those banned have been banned for cause. Manifest cause. Worse, the experience has been that far too often objectors to ID feel that abusive commentary, doxxing and the like are legitimate tactics within their right to freedom of expression. So much so that I identified a pattern, termed the trifecta fallacy. Namely, red herring distractors, led away to ad hominem laced strawman caricatures set alight rhetorically to cloud, confuse, poison and polarise the atmosphere, frustrating discussion on actual merits. Those are agit prop tactics of contempt-laced hostility or even hate. Given the tangential, loaded nature of this sub point, that may even be a factor in your point I am responding to. Further, there is another pair of patterns, selective hyperskepticism and the demand to conform to crooked yardsticks set up as gold standards of reference, authority and verity. The first, is exertion of double standards of warrant that demand arbitrarily high proof of what one is inclined to reject, that are not exerted on what one wishes to be so. If one is selectively hyperskeptical regarding X, it is because one has credulously accepted crooked yardstick Y, and is using it to discriminate against X. It is the double-standard that is diagnostic. A Nobel Prize winner, Crick, posed a classic case in point in his self referentially incoherent projection of irrational control on thought, failing to see what it did to his own thinking, Crick:
. . . that "You", your joys and your sorrows, your memories and your ambitions, your sense of personal identity and free will, are in fact no more than the behaviour of a vast assembly of nerve cells and their associated molecules. As Lewis Carroll's Alice might have phrased: "You're nothing but a pack of neurons." This hypothesis is so alien to the ideas of most people today that it can truly be called astonishing.
The late Philip Johnson has aptly replied that Sir Francis should have therefore been willing to preface his works thusly: "I, Francis Crick, my opinions and my science, and even the thoughts expressed in this book, consist of nothing more than the behavior of a vast assembly of nerve cells and their associated molecules." Johnson then acidly commented: “[t]he plausibility of materialistic determinism requires that an implicit exception be made for the theorist.” [Reason in the Balance, 1995.] A classic expression is that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Of course, the double standard comes through in what is deemed extraordinary, tied to conformity to frankly ideologically motivated crooked yardsticks. The Lewontin demons review essay is a classic inadvertent admission on the point. Just yesterday, I came across a 2016 NEJM article, relating to how placebo trials have been turned into another gold standard fallacy, on the ongoing pandemic. I recall the hyperskeptical dismissiveness I faced last year, when I pointed out that cumulatively adequate empirical evidence can arise from any number of sources so setting up placebos as a gold standard was fallacious. It turns out, this has been on the table in the professional literature and in law or regulation all along but has been conveniently sidelined: ref: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29733448/
Real-World Evidence — What Is It and What Can It Tell Us? Rachel E. Sherman, M.D., M.P.H. [et al, long list] . . . . The term “real-world evidence” is widely used by those who develop medical products or who study, deliver, or pay for health care, but its spe- cific meaning is elusive. We believe it refers to information on health care that is derived from multiple sources outside typical clinical research settings, including electronic health records (EHRs), claims and billing data, product and dis- ease registries, and data gathered through per- sonal devices and health applications. 1,2 Key to understanding the usefulness of real-world evi- dence is an appreciation of its potential for complementing the knowledge gained from tra- ditional clinical trials, whose well-known limi- tations make it difficult to generalize findings to larger, more inclusive populations of patients, providers, and health care delivery systems or settings that reflect actual use in practice. 3 Real-world evidence can inform therapeutic development, outcomes research, patient care, research on health care systems, quality improve- ment, safety surveillance, and well-controlled effectiveness studies. Real-world evidence can also provide information on how factors such as clinical setting and provider and health-system characteristics influence treatment effects and outcomes. Importantly, the use of such evidence has the potential to allow researchers to answer these questions efficiently, saving time and money while yielding answers relevant to broader popu- lations of patients than would be possible in a specialized research environment. 4,5
Health records, of course, includes case files and is relevant to a pattern of successful off-label use as has clearly happened with HCQ and/or Ivermectin based cocktails. The former was hounded out last year and the latter is going through much the same this year though the degree of censorship has now hit 11 so things are much more quiet. Worse, it seems that experimental [quasi-]vaccines pushed forward before Phase IV long term consequences/side effects trials, on emergency approvals and widely trumpeted, depend on there being no acceptable alternative treatment to obtain such emergency approval. That smells of bureaucratic, dirty power games being played in the face of a pandemic. But then, the corruption of our power elite and media culture should be patent to any reasonably objective person. That is the intellectual climate of our benighted times. In that context, pardon my doubts on your claims as cited. You have implied a claim, now the ball is in your court to back it up. I am going to bet, your claim is a bluff. Prove me wrong, if you can. KFkairosfocus
April 8, 2021
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How to falsify ID and make yourself rich in the process, (and also go down in history as the greatest scientist who has ever lived)
Evolution 2.0 Prize: Unprecedented $10 Million Offered To Replicate Cellular Evolution - 14 Jan, 2020, Excerpt: An incentive prize ten times the size of the Nobel – believed to be the largest single award ever in basic science – is being offered to the person or team solving the largest mystery in history: how genetic code inside cells got there, and how cells intentionally self-organize, communicate, then purposely adapt. This $10 million challenge, the Evolution 2.0 Prize can be found at www.evo2.org. The new international competition is intended to speed breakthroughs around the still unknown process of cell communication that organizers predict can turn off cancer, allow robots to think for themselves and even create new plant life to combat climate change. The Evolution 2.0 Prize is designed by Chicago engineer-turned-marketer-turned-business consultant Perry Marshall and his A-list team of partners. They include top genetic experts from Harvard and Oxford, plus a diverse group of investors from private banking, healthcare and biotechnology, software, real estate, publishing and more. "A germ resisting antibiotics does more programming in 12 minutes than a team of Google engineers can do in 12 days," said Marshall. "One blade of grass is 10,000 years ahead of any computer. If a single firm in Silicon Valley held a fraction of the secrets of this natural code inside a single cell, they'd set the NASDAQ on fire. https://www.prnewswire.com/in/news-releases/evolution-2-0-prize-unprecedented-10-million-offered-to-replicate-cellular-evolution-875038146.html
(fair warning, you winning the mega lotto has a much better chance of you succeeding than anyone ever falsifying ID).
The Capabilities of Chaos and Complexity: David L. Abel - Null Hypothesis For Information Generation - 2009 Excerpt of conclusion pg. 42: "To focus the scientific community’s attention on its own tendencies toward overzealous metaphysical imagination bordering on “wish-fulfillment,” we propose the following readily falsifiable null hypothesis, and invite rigorous experimental attempts to falsify it: “Physicodynamics cannot spontaneously traverse The Cybernetic Cut: physicodynamics alone cannot organize itself into formally functional systems requiring algorithmic optimization, computational halting, and circuit integration.” A single exception of non trivial, unaided spontaneous optimization of formal function by truly natural process would falsify this null hypothesis." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2662469/ Can We Falsify Any Of The Following Null Hypothesis 1) Mathematical Logic 2) Algorithmic Optimization 3) Cybernetic Programming 4) Computational Halting 5) Integrated Circuits 6) Organization (e.g. homeostatic optimization far from equilibrium) 7) Material Symbol Systems (e.g. genetics) 8) Any Goal Oriented bona fide system 9) Language 10) Formal function of any kind 11) Utilitarian work The Law of Physicodynamic Incompleteness - David L. Abel - 2011 Excerpt: "If decision-node programming selections are made randomly or by law rather than with purposeful intent, no non-trivial (sophisticated) function will spontaneously arise." If only one exception to this null hypothesis were published, the hypothesis would be falsified. Falsification would require an experiment devoid of behind-the-scenes steering. Any artificial selection hidden in the experimental design would disqualify the experimental falsification. After ten years of continual republication of the null hypothesis with appeals for falsification, no falsification has been provided. The time has come to extend this null hypothesis into a formal scientific prediction: "No non trivial algorithmic/computational utility will ever arise from chance and/or necessity alone." https://www.academia.edu/11759341/Physicodynamic_Incompleteness_-_Scirus_Sci-Topic_Page
And here is the 'simple' reason why ID will never be falsified
"Matter does not make rules. Matter is governed by rules." fifthmonarchyman Is Life Unique? David L. Abel - January 2012? Concluding Statement: The scientific method itself cannot be reduced to mass and energy. Neither can language, translation, coding and decoding, mathematics, logic theory, programming, symbol systems, the integration of circuits, computation, categorizations, results tabulation, the drawing and discussion of conclusions. The prevailing Kuhnian paradigm rut of philosophic physicalism is obstructing scientific progress, biology in particular. There is more to life than chemistry. All known life is cybernetic. Control is choice-contingent and formal, not physicodynamic. http://www.mdpi.com/2075-1729/2/1/106/
On the other hand, In 1967 Stanford Professor Paul Ehrlich stated that the Theory of Evolution ‘cannot be refuted by any possible observations’ and is thus “outside empirical science.”
“Our theory of evolution has become, as Popper described, one which cannot be refuted by any possible observations. Every conceivable observation can be fitted into it. It is thus “outside empirical science” but not necessarily false. No one can think of ways in which to test it. Ideas, either without basis or based on a few laboratory experiments carried out in extremely simplified systems have attained currency far beyond their validity. They have become part of an evolutionary dogma accepted by most of us as part of our training. The cure seems to us not to be a discarding of the modern synthesis of evolutionary theory, but more skepticism about many of its tenets.” Ehrlich, Paul and L.C. Birch (1967), “Evolutionary History and Population Biology,” Nature, 214:349-352, April 22, p. 352 https://afdave.wordpress.com/more-useful-quotes-for-creationists/
Perhaps JVL would like to specify the exact falsification criteria of Darwinism?
Central tenets of neo-Darwinism broken. Response to ‘Neo-Darwinism is just fine’ – 2015 Excerpt: “If, as the commentator seems to imply, we make neo-Darwinism so flexible as an idea that it can accept even those findings that the originators intended to be excluded by the theory it is then incumbent on modern neo-Darwinists to specify what would now falsify the theory. If nothing can do this then it is not a scientific theory.” – Denis Noble https://jeb.biologists.org/content/218/16/2659
I would add that Darwinists simply refuse to accept falsification of their theory even though it has been falsified from numerous different angles, thus Darwinism, in all its various forms, is presently unfalsifiable and therefore 'outside of empirical science',
Darwin’s theory holds mutations to the genome to be random. The vast majority of mutations to the genome are not random but are found to be ‘directed’. Darwin’s theory holds that Natural Selection is the ‘designer substitute’ that produces the ‘appearance’ and/or illusion of design. Natural Selection, especially for multicellular organisms, is found to grossly inadequate as the ‘designer substitute. Darwin’s theory holds that mutations to DNA will eventually change the basic biological form of any given species into a new form of a brand new species. Yet, biological form is found to be irreducible to mutations to DNA, nor is biological form reducible to any other material particulars in biology one may wish to invoke. Darwin’s theory holds there to be an extremely beneficial and flexible mutation rate for DNA which was ultimately responsible for all the diversity and complexity of life we see on earth. The mutation rate to DNA is overwhelmingly detrimental. Detrimental to such a point that it is seriously questioned whether there are any truly beneficial, information building, mutations whatsoever. Charles Darwin himself held that the gradual unfolding of life would (someday) be self-evident in the fossil record. Yet, from the Cambrian Explosion onward, the fossil record is consistently characterized by sudden appearance of a group/kind in the fossil record(disparity), then rapid diversity within that group/kind, and then long term stability and even deterioration of variety within the overall group/kind, and within the specific species of the kind, over long periods of time. Of the few dozen or so fossils claimed as transitional, not one is uncontested as a true example of transition between major animal forms out of millions of collected fossils. Moreover, Fossils are found in the “wrong place” all the time (either too early, or too late). Darwin’s theory, due to the randomness postulate, holds that patterns will not repeat themselves in supposedly widely divergent species. Yet thousands of instances of what is ironically called ‘convergent evolution’, on both the morphological and genetic level, falsifies the Darwinian belief that patterns will not repeat themselves in widely divergent species. Charles Darwin himself stated that “If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down.” Yet as Doug Axe pointed out, “Basically every gene and every new protein fold, there is nothing of significance that we can show that can be had in that gradualistic way. It’s all a mirage. None of it happens that way.” Charles Darwin himself stated that “If it could be proved that any part of the structure of any one species had been formed for the exclusive good of another species, it would annihilate my theory, for such could not have been produced through natural selection.” Yet as Wolf-Ekkehard Lönnig pointed out, “in thousands of plant species often entirely new organs have been formed for the exclusive good of more than 132,930 other species, these ‘ugly facts’ have annihilated Darwin’s theory as well as the modern versions of it.” Charles Darwin himself stated that, ““The impossibility of conceiving that this grand and wondrous universe, with our conscious selves, arose through chance, seems to me the chief argument for the existence of God.”. Yet ‘our conscious selves’ are certainly not explainable by ‘chance’ (nor is consciousness explainable by any possible reductive materialistic explanation in general), i.e. ‘the hard problem of consciousness’. Besides the mathematics of probability consistently showing that Darwinian evolution is impossible, the mathematics of population genetics itself has now shown Darwinian evolution to be impossible. Moreover, ‘immaterial’ mathematics itself, which undergirds all of science, engineering and technology, is held by most mathematicians to exist in some timeless, unchanging, immaterial, Platonic realm. Yet, the reductive materialism that Darwinian theory is based upon denies the existence of the immaterial realm that mathematics exists in. i.e. Darwinian evolution actually denies the objective reality of the one thing, i.e. mathematics, that it most needs in order to be considered scientific in the first place! Donald Hoffman has, via population genetics, shown that if Darwin’s materialistic theory were true then all our observations of reality would be illusory. Yet the scientific method itself is based on reliable observation. Moreover, Quantum Mechanics itself has now shown that conscious observation must come before material reality, i.e. falsification of ‘realism’ proves that our conscious observations are reliable!. The reductive materialism that undergirds Darwinian thought holds that immaterial information is merely ’emergent’ from a material basis. Yet immaterial Information, via experimental realization of the “Maxwell’s Demon” thought experiment, is now found to be its own distinctive physical entity that, although it can interact in a ‘top down’ manner with matter and energy, is separate from matter and energy. Darwinists hold that Darwin’s theory is true. Yet ‘Truth’ itself is an abstract property of an immaterial mind that is irreducible to the reductive materialistic explanations of Darwinian evolution. i.e. Assuming reductive materialism and/or Naturalism as the starting philosophical position of science actually precludes ‘the truth’ from ever being reached by science! Darwinist’s, due to their underlying naturalistic philosophy, insist that teleology (i.e. goal directed purpose) does not exist. Yet it is impossible for Biologists to do biological research without constantly invoking words that directly imply teleology. i.e. The very words that Biologists themselves use when they are doing their research falsifies Darwinian evolution.
Verse:
1 Thessalonians 5:21 Test all things; hold fast what is good.
bornagain77
April 7, 2021
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JVL:
There are a lot of people who feel that they have falsified ID theory only to be shouted down on ID supportive sites.
The fact there is a paper like "Waiting for TWO Mutations" proves they are lying.
That is, is there a way to set up a structure wherein there’s a clear standard as to whether or not ID has been falsified?
An actual demonstration that is peer-reviewed. Another great example would be someone claiming the origin of in formation prize.
So, if someone doesn’t think ID deserves its status it’s okay to attack it?
As long as they have the science and evidence, yes. Flailing away doesn't cut it. The best way to falsify ID, the ONLT way to falsify ID, is to step up and demonstrate that blind and mindless processes can produce a coded information processing system that is similar to the one involved in the genetic code. So, yeah, do that of piss off.ET
April 7, 2021
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JVL
faith has to reflect the science. I think that attitude is much greater in Europe.
Sounds like you're saying that ID has more support in America because the religious faith of Americans causes them to accept the false notion of ID (and not reflect the science). So, American ID supporters are more gullible and less scientifically accomplished. So, European origin-of-life researchers have stronger evidence than ID researchers have presented? They have better explanations for the origin of the universe and the fine-tuning found therein? I'm interested to see them, if so.
Seems quite reasonable. Whose up first?
ID Proposal: Intelligence can define, map and create functional code in software that models the functions of DNA in a cell. Therefore, it is proposed - the first cellular DNA was produced by intelligence. Falsification criteria: Demonstrate via lab work or in the wild non-intelligent sources (or simulation of one using the diverse elements that would be found on earth at the time of first life, along with variables randomized for environmental conditions - variations in heat, wetness, stability, radiation) creating functional DNA code. Failing that, the ID proposal stands unfalsified.
Why is that do you think?
Not only did he say and write many things that are embarrassing by today's standards - scientifically and socially, his ideas are primitive and have been significantly revised and in many cases replaced with new ideas. So, even the die-hard Darwinists do not take his falsification criteria seriously on that basis. This is one of many instances: http://www.weloennig.de/PlantGalls.pdf
Now, Darwin formulated the following falsification criterium, among others, for his theory of natural selection –fully applicable to the modern neo-Darwinian versions of the theory as well, because: “Natural selection cannot possibly produce any modification in any one species exclusively for the good of another species; “... If it could be proved that any part of the structure of any one species had been formed for the exclusive good of another species, it would annihilate my theory,for such could not have been produced through natural selection.” Also: “Natural selection can produce nothing in one species for the exclusive good or injury of another; though it may well produce parts, organs, and excretions highly useful or even indispensable, or again highly injurious to another species, but in all cases at the same time useful to the possessor.”Inference reached on the basis of the evidence: Because in the case of the galls, in thousands of plant species often entirely new organs have been formed for the exclusive good of more than 132,930 other species, these ‘ugly facts’ have annihilated Darwin’s theory as well as the modern versions of it.The galls are not ‘useful to the possessor’, the plants. There is no space for these phenomena in the world of “the selfish gene”(Dawkins). Moreover, the same conclusion appears to be true for thousands of angiosperm species producing deceptive flowers (in contrast to gall formations, now for the exclusive good of the plant species) –a topic which should be carefully treated in another paper. http://www.weloennig.de/PlantGalls.pdf
So, ID scientist, W.E. Loenning (German, by the way) uses Darwin's criterion and easily falsifies Darwin's theory. But nobody cares or pays attention (except IDists) because they don't take Darwin seriously.
Cuts both ways don’t you think?
A theme that runs through this equivalency that you offer is that "ID is false". So, you do not see any evidence of intelligence in the design present in nature. It has the appearance of design but it was all created by blind, unintelligent forces?Silver Asiatic
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Silver Asiatic: Agreed – there is not much acceptance of ID in Europe, but at the same time, there’s not much of an ID strategy in place either, so it’s difficult to measure the effect. What is your opinion on why it is different in Europe? I shall relate the case of a good Christian friend of mine who said: faith has to reflect the science. I think that attitude is much greater in Europe. If the person is truly being shouted-down and not being corrected for bad behavior, then that’s not a good thing. UD has had to ban several individuals and some of these people complain about unfair treatment or having discussion shut down. But I observe someone like Seversky who is fully atheist, materialist evolutionist, and he has been here for 10 years (I think) without having been banned. I think people who have been banned here have shown zero respect for the hosts or participants. But again, if ID supporters are not open to honest debate and exchange of ideas, then that’s a major problem. We can agree on that last bit for sure. I do think that, in the past, on this forum, sincere disagreement has been equated with an inability to accept a doctrine. I’ll borrow a note from your previous responses: Is there a way to set up a clear standard as to whether or not evolutionary theory has been falsified? But aside from that, for ID, I agree that the debate needs unbiased moderation and that is very difficult to find. Perhaps one way to do it, from the ID perspective: 1. Set up the challenge 2. Indicate the ID proposal clearly. 3. Give exact specifications on what constitutes a falsification Seems quite reasonable. Whose up first? Darwin tried that in his text, making some bold, clear statements about what would supposedly falsify his theory. But what he said is not really taken seriously (which seems strange since he originated the theory). Why is that do you think? Ok, but also – people can be convinced by something that does not work, just because other people think the idea must be preserved. Cuts both ways don't you think?JVL
April 7, 2021
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I’m not sure that’s true in Europe but . . . okay.
Agreed - there is not much acceptance of ID in Europe, but at the same time, there's not much of an ID strategy in place either, so it's difficult to measure the effect. What is your opinion on why it is different in Europe?
There are a lot of people who feel that they have falsified ID theory only to be shouted down on ID supportive sites.
If the person is truly being shouted-down and not being corrected for bad behavior, then that's not a good thing. UD has had to ban several individuals and some of these people complain about unfair treatment or having discussion shut down. But I observe someone like Seversky who is fully atheist, materialist evolutionist, and he has been here for 10 years (I think) without having been banned. I think people who have been banned here have shown zero respect for the hosts or participants. But again, if ID supporters are not open to honest debate and exchange of ideas, then that's a major problem.
So . . . . my question is: how should the disagreement be moderated? That is, is there a way to set up a structure wherein there’s a clear standard as to whether or not ID has been falsified?
I'll borrow a note from your previous responses: Is there a way to set up a clear standard as to whether or not evolutionary theory has been falsified? But aside from that, for ID, I agree that the debate needs unbiased moderation and that is very difficult to find. Perhaps one way to do it, from the ID perspective: 1. Set up the challenge 2. Indicate the ID proposal clearly. 3. Give exact specifications on what constitutes a falsification Darwin tried that in his text, making some bold, clear statements about what would supposedly falsify his theory. But what he said is not really taken seriously (which seems strange since he originated the theory).
Which is what you would expect. If something has ‘worked’ then you’d expect that it would take extra effort to overthrow it.
Ok, but also - people can be convinced by something that does not work, just because other people think the idea must be preserved.Silver Asiatic
April 7, 2021
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Silver Asiatic: I think the strategy is working well. Every year more and more people respond with disgust and embarrassment when they realize the lies that have been told in the name of atheism/materialism in science. I'm not sure that's true in Europe but . . . okay. The ID community promotes open-dialogue on the science. If someone (like yourself) thinks they have a refutation or falsification of ID theory, we want to hear it and engage with it. But we don’t see these refutations or even attempts at dialogue. So, what kind of strategy is required to support a theory that has not been falsified? There are a lot of people who feel that they have falsified ID theory only to be shouted down on ID supportive sites. So . . . . my question is: how should the disagreement be moderated? That is, is there a way to set up a structure wherein there's a clear standard as to whether or not ID has been falsified? Just telling the truth as it is discovered and patiently working to get more people to recognize this truth (and leave behind their false notions) seems to be the most efficient approach. Strategic thinking using politics, advertising, various manipulations, packaging – can have some effect, but don’t add to the truth that has been discovered. Paradigm changes take a long time. Which is what you would expect. If something has 'worked' then you'd expect that it would take extra effort to overthrow it.JVL
April 7, 2021
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That strategy doesn’t seem to be working. What other stratagems should be considered?
I think the strategy is working well. Every year more and more people respond with disgust and embarrassment when they realize the lies that have been told in the name of atheism/materialism in science. Meyer's new book will sell well. Behe's titles are best-sellers (his first is noted as a classic). The ID community promotes open-dialogue on the science. If someone (like yourself) thinks they have a refutation or falsification of ID theory, we want to hear it and engage with it. But we don't see these refutations or even attempts at dialogue. So, what kind of strategy is required to support a theory that has not been falsified? Just telling the truth as it is discovered and patiently working to get more people to recognize this truth (and leave behind their false notions) seems to be the most efficient approach. Strategic thinking using politics, advertising, various manipulations, packaging - can have some effect, but don't add to the truth that has been discovered. Paradigm changes take a long time.Silver Asiatic
April 7, 2021
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Silver Asiatic: Because there’s an enormous academic and professional enterprise built on the claim that it contributes immensely and that criticism of or opposition to the theory will hurt the human race. Okay. That strategy doesn't seem to be working. What other stratagems should be considered?JVL
April 7, 2021
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ET: It is very important to attack paradigms that do not deserve their status, duh. So, if someone doesn't think ID deserves its status it's okay to attack it?JVL
April 7, 2021
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Is it? Or is it just an easy way to develop designs that are functional?
It's hard to respond here - not sure if you're asking or telling, and not sure what kind of scope or range you place on the claim that "the design is poor". Is that a universal claim? And what degree do you assign to it? The counter point is that the design is of very high quality, in general. So, you're saying that nothing we have developed, in imitation of the functional designs in nature, reveals a sophisticated, high-quality design? It all just looks like the output of a random process? Even Dawkins would disagree with that, I think. He says that it does not look like what a natural process would produce but instead looks like it was designed. I look at something like Velcro. Imitated from a natural design and has been used without much modification or change for 80 years. Nature did not provide a high-quality design template here? Moving to that which is far more sophisticated: All AI systems are biomimetic - imitating what is found in "nature" (intelligence). You're saying that our intelligence is not of a high-quality and can easily be produced by unintelligent forces? The fact that our human design processes themselves make use of directed, intelligent and rational methods (creating a design, testing, improving, aiming at goals and targets) rather than Darwinian processes tells us a lot about the supposed "flaws" in the design also. That's not a good argument in favor of evolution.Silver Asiatic
April 7, 2021
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JVL
If unguided evolution is not true then why attack it for what it supposedly does not contribute?
Because there's an enormous academic and professional enterprise built on the claim that it contributes immensely and that criticism of or opposition to the theory will hurt the human race.Silver Asiatic
April 7, 2021
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Acartia's sock:
...to my claim that ID does not preclude poor quality design.
That is NOT "your" claim. That has been part of ID for decades, if not longer.ET
April 7, 2021
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