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From Philip Cunningham: The human eye, like the human brain, is a wonder

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(Which allegedly required no actual design) With references, courtesy Philip Cunningham:

The human eye consists of over two million working parts making it second only to the brain in complexity (1).

The retina covers less than a square inch, and contains 137 million light-sensitive receptor cells. The retina possesses 7 million cones, which provide color information and sharpness of images, and 120 million rods which are extremely sensitive detectors of white light (2).

There are between seven to ten-million shades of color the human eye can detect (3).

The rod can detect a single photon. Any man-made detector would need to be cooled and isolated from noise to behave the same way (4).

On average, about a quarter of a billion photons enter our eyes each second (5).

For visible light, the energy carried by a single photon would be around a tiny 4 x 10-19 Joules; this energy is just sufficient to excite a single molecule in a photoreceptor cell of an eye (6).

The eye is so sensitive that it can, under normal circumstances, detect a candle 1.6 miles away (7),

But if you’re sitting on a mountain top on a clear, moonless night you can see a match struck 50 miles away (8).

It only takes a few trillionths of a second, (picoseconds), for the retina to absorb a photon in the visible range of the spectrum (9).

The inverted retina, far from being badly designed, is a design feature, not a design constraint. Müller cells in the ‘backwards’ retina span the thickness of the retina and act as living fiber optic cables to shepherd photons through to separate receivers, much like coins through a change sorting machine (10).

The eye is infinitely more complex than any man-made camera (11).

The eye can handle between 500,000 and 1.5 million messages simultaneously, and gathers 80% of all the knowledge absorbed by the brain (12).

The brain receives millions of simultaneous reports from the eyes. When its designated wavelength of light is present, each rod or cone triggers an electrical response to the brain, which then absorbs a composite set of yes-or-no messages from all the rods and cones (13).

There is a biological computer in the retina which compresses, and enhances the edges, of the information from all those millions of light sensitive cells before sending it to the visual cortex where the complex stream of information is then decompressed (14).

This data compression process has been referred to as “the best compression algorithm around,” (15 & 15a).

While today’s digital hardware is extremely impressive, it is clear that the human retina’s real-time performance goes unchallenged. To actually simulate 10 milliseconds of the complete processing of even a single nerve cell from the retina would require the solution of about 500 simultaneous nonlinear differential equations 100 times and would take at least several minutes of processing time on a Cray supercomputer. Keeping in mind that there are 10 million or more such cells interacting with each other in complex ways, it would take a minimum of 100 years of Cray time to simulate what takes place in your eye many times every second (16). (of note: the preceding comparison was made in 1985 when Cray supercomputers ruled the supercomputing world).

In an average day, the eye moves about 100,000 times, and our mind seems to prepare for our eye movements before they occur (17).

In terms of strength and endurance, eyes muscles are simply amazing. You’d have to walk 50 miles to give your legs the same workout as the muscles in one of your eyes get in a day (18).

The brain exploits a feedback system which produces phenomenally precise eye movements (19).

The human is the only species known to shed tears when they are sad (20).

Tears are not just saline. Tears have a similar structure to saliva and contain enzymes, lipids, metabolites and electrolytes (21).

And, tears contain a potent microbe-killer (lysozyme) which guards the eyes against bacterial infection (22).

The average eye blinks one to two times each minute for infants and ten times faster for adults.

This blinking adds up to nearly 500 million blinks over an average lifetime (23).

References:

  1. – 20 Facts About the Amazing Eye – 2014
  2. An eye is composed of more than 2 million working parts…. 20: Eyes are the second most complex organ after the brain. – Susan DeRemer, CFRE – Discovery Eye Foundation
  3. Vision and Light-Induced Molecular Changes

Excerpt : “The retina is lined with many millions of photoreceptor cells that consist of two types: 7 million cones provide color information and sharpness of images, and 120 million rods (Figure 3) are extremely sensitive detectors of white light to provide night vision.” – Rachel Casiday and Regina Frey Department of Chemistry, Washington University

  1. – Number of Colors Distinguishable by the Human Eye – 2006 “Experts estimate that we can distinguish perhaps as many as 10 million colors.” – Wyszecki, Gunter. Color. Chicago: World Book Inc, 2006: 824…. “Our difference threshold for colors is so low that we can discriminate some 7 million different color variations (Geldard, 1972).” – Myers, David G. Psychology. Michigan: Worth Publishers, 1995: 165. From Number of Colors Distinguishable by the Human Eye
  2. Study suggests humans can detect even the smallest units of light – July 21, 2016

Excerpt: Research,, has shown that humans can detect the presence of a single photon, the smallest measurable unit of light. Previous studies had established that human subjects acclimated to the dark were capable only of reporting flashes of five to seven photons…

it is remarkable: a photon, the smallest physical entity with quantum properties of which light consists, is interacting with a biological system consisting of billions of cells, all in a warm and wet environment,” says Vaziri. “The response that the photon generates survives all the way to the level of our awareness despite the ubiquitous background noise. Any man-made detector would need to be cooled and isolated from noise to behave the same way.”…

The gathered data from more than 30,000 trials demonstrated that humans can indeed detect a single photon incident on their eye with a probability significantly above chance.

“What we want to know next is how does a biological system achieve such sensitivity? How does it achieve this in the presence of noise?

  1. How many photons get into your eyes? – 2016

Excerpt : About half a billion photons reach the cornea of the eye every second, of which about half are absorbed by the ocular medium. The radiant flux that reaches the retina is therefore approx. 2*10^8 photons/s.

  1. Photon Excerpt For visible light the energy carried by a single photon is around a tiny 4×10–19 joules; this energy is just sufficient to excite a single molecule in a photoreceptor cell of an eye, thus contributing to vision.[4]
  2. How Far Can We See and Why? Excerpt: “Detecting a candle flame: Researchers believe that without obstructions, a person with healthy but average vision could see a candle flame from as far as 1.6 miles.”
  3. An Eye for Exercise Your eye is a very active organ – December 28, 2001

(HealthDayNews) — The cells in the retina are so sensitive that if you’re sitting on a mountain top on a clear, moonless night you can see a match struck 50 miles away.

  1. Vision and Light-Induced Molecular Changes

Excerpt: “Thus, when 11-cis-retinal absorbs a photon in the visible range of the spectrum, free rotation about the bond between carbon atom 11 and carbon atom 12 can occur and the all-trans-retinal can form. This isomerization occurs in a few picoseconds (10-12 s) or less.” – Rachel Casiday and Regina Frey, Department of Chemistry, Washington University

  1. Fiber optic light pipes in the retina do much more than simple image transfer – Jul 21, 2014

Excerpt: Having the photoreceptors at the back of the retina is not a design constraint, it is a design feature. The idea that the vertebrate eye, like a traditional front-illuminated camera, might have been improved somehow if it had only been able to orient its wiring behind the photoreceptor layer, like a cephalopod, is folly. Indeed in simply engineered systems, like CMOS or CCD image sensors, a back-illuminated design manufactured by flipping the silicon wafer and thinning it so that light hits the photocathode without having to navigate the wiring layer can improve photon capture across a wide wavelength band. But real eyes are much more crafty than that.

A case in point are the Müller glia cells that span the thickness of the retina. These high refractive index cells spread an absorptive canopy across the retinal surface and then shepherd photons through a low-scattering cytoplasm to separate receivers, much like coins through a change sorting machine. A new paper in Nature Communications describes how these wavelength-dependent wave-guides can shuttle green-red light to cones while passing the blue-purples to adjacent rods. The idea that these Müller cells act as living fiber optic cables has been floated previously. It has even been convincingly demonstrated using a dual beam laser trap….

…In the retina, and indeed the larger light organ that is the eye, there is much more going on than just photons striking rhodopsin photopigments. As far as absorbers, there are all kinds of things going on in there—various carontenoids, lipofuscins and lipochromes, even cytochrome oxidases in mitochondria that get involved at the longer wavelegnths….

,,In considering not just the classical photoreceptors but the entire retina itself as a light-harvesting engine… that can completely refigure (its) fine structure within a few minutes to handle changing light levels, every synapse appears as an essential machine that percolates information as if at the Brownian scale, or even below….

  1. The Wonder of Sight – April 15, 2020

Excerpt: The eye processes approximately 80% of the information received from the outside world. In fact, the eyes can handle 500,000 messages simultaneously. It happens all the time, and you don’t even have to think about it. Your eyes just do it! The eye is infinitely more complex than any man-made camera or telescope.

  1. Walk By Faith – Now See Here, Touch & Smell to Discern Good & Evil – July 6, 2018

Excerpt: “I Am Joe’s Eye” (from the Reader’s Digest series) says “For concentrated complexities, no other organ in Joe’s body can equal me … I have tens of millions of electrical connections and can handle 1.5 million simultaneous messages. I gather 80 percent of all the knowledge Joe absorbs.”

  1. Fearfully and Wonderfully Made – Philip Yancey, Paul Brand

Excerpt: The brain receives millions of simultaneous reports from the eyes. When its designated wavelength of light is present, each rod or cone triggers an electrical response to the brain, which then absorbs a composite set of yes-or-no messages from all the rods and cones.

  1. Retina – Spatial encoding

Excerpt: When the retina sends neural impulses representing an image to the brain, it spatially encodes (compresses) those impulses to fit the limited capacity of the optic nerve. Compression is necessary because there are 100 times more photoreceptor cells than ganglion cells. This is done by “decorrelation”, which is carried out by the “centre–surround structures”, which are implemented by the bipolar and ganglion cells.

There are two types of centre–surround structures in the retina – on-centres and off-centres. On-centres have a positively weighted centre and a negatively weighted surround. Off-centres are just the opposite. Positive weighting is more commonly known as excitatory, and negative weighting as inhibitory.

These centre–surround structures are not physical apparent, in the sense that one cannot see them by staining samples of tissue and examining the retina’s anatomy. The centre–surround structures are logical (i.e., mathematically abstract) in the sense that they depend on the connection strengths between bipolar and ganglion cells. It is believed that the connection strength between cells is caused by the number and types of ion channels embedded in the synapses between the bipolar and ganglion cells.

The centre–surround structures are mathematically equivalent to the edge detection algorithms used by computer programmers to extract or enhance the edges in a digital photograph. Thus, the retina performs operations on the image-representing impulses to enhance the edges of objects within its visual field.

  1. JPEG for the mind: How the brain compresses visual information – February 11, 2011

Excerpt “Computers can beat us at math and chess,” said Connor, “but they can’t match our ability to distinguish, recognize, understand, remember, and manipulate the objects that make up our world.” This core human ability depends in part on condensing visual information to a tractable level. For now, at least, the brain format seems to be the best compression algorithm around.

15a. Optimised Hardware Compression, The Eyes Have It. – 2011

  1. Can Evolution Produce an Eye? Not a Chance! by Dr. David Menton on August 19, 2017

Excerpt: In an article in Byte magazine (April 1985), John Stevens compares the signal processing ability of the cells in the retina with that of the most sophisticated computer designed by man, the Cray supercomputer:

“While today’s digital hardware is extremely impressive, it is clear that the human retina’s real time performance goes unchallenged. Actually, to simulate 10 milliseconds (one hundredth of a second) of the complete processing of even a single nerve cell from the retina would require the solution of about 500 simultaneous nonlinear differential equations 100 times and would take at least several minutes of processing time on a Cray supercomputer. Keeping in mind that there are 10 million or more such cells interacting with each other in complex ways, it would take a minimum of 100 years of Cray time to simulate what takes place in your eye many times every second.”

  1. Looking At What The Eyes See – February 25, 2011

Excerpt: We move our eyes three times a second, over 100,000 times each day. Why isn’t life blurrier? Reporting in Nature Neuroscience, psychologist Martin Rolfs and colleagues found that our mind seems to prepare for our eye movements before they occur, helping us keep track of objects in the visual field.

  1. An Eye for Exercise Your eye is a very active organ – December 28, 2001 (HealthDayNews) — Did you know that you’d have to walk 50 miles to give your legs the same workout as the muscles in one of your eyes get in a day?
  2. How do our eyes move in perfect synchrony? By Benjamin Plackett – June 21, 2020

Excerpt: “You have a spare one in case you have an accident, and the second reason is depth perception, which we evolved to help us hunt,” said Dr. David Guyton, professor of ophthalmology at The Johns Hopkins University. But having two eyes would lead to double vision if they didn’t move together in perfect synchrony. So how does the body ensure our eyes always work together?

To prevent double vision, the brain exploits a feedback system, which it uses to finely tune the lengths of the muscles controlling the eyes. This produces phenomenally precise eye movements, Guyton said.

Each eye has six muscles regulating its movement in different directions, and each one of those muscles must be triggered simultaneously in both eyes for them to move in unison, according to a 2005 review in the Canadian Medical Association Journal. “It’s actually quite amazing when you think about it,” Guyton told Live Science. “The brain has a neurological system that is fantastically organized because the brain learns over time how much stimulation to send to each of the 12 muscles for every desired direction of gaze.”

  1. Why Only Humans Shed Emotional Tears – 2018

Abstract Producing emotional tears is a universal and uniquely human behavior…

  1. Facts About Tears – Dec. 21, 2018 Excerpt Tears Have Layers

Tears are not just saline. They have a similar structure to saliva and contain enzymes, lipids, metabolites and electrolytes. Each tear has three layers:

An inner mucus layer that keeps the whole tear fastened to the eye.

A watery middle layer (the thickest layer) to keep the eye hydrated, repel bacteria and protect the cornea.

An outer oily layer to keep the surface of the tear smooth for the eye to see through, and to prevent the other layers from evaporating.

Lacrimal glands above each eye produce your tears…

  1. How Tears Go ‘Pac-Man’ To Beat Bacteria – January 20, 2012

Excerpt: In 1922, a few years before he won the Nobel Prize for his discovery of penicillin, bacteriologist Alexander Fleming discovered in human tears a germ-fighting enzyme which he named lysozyme. He collected and crystallized lysozyme from his own tears, then wowed contemporaries at Britain’s Royal Society by demonstrating its miraculous power to dissolve bacteria before their very eyes.

“That’s a seriously bodacious experiment”…

  1. Eyelids—Intermittent Wipers – Dr. Don DeYoung – October 20, 2013

Excerpt: The blinking of our eyes is automatic and essential. Its saline washer fluid moistens and protects the outer cornea of the eye while removing dust. Other protective features include our eyebrow “umbrellas” and recessed eyeball sockets.

The average eye blinks one to two times each minute for infants and ten times faster for adults. This blinking adds up to nearly 500 million blinks over an average lifetime. The actual mechanism, however, is not well understood. It may involve a “blinking center” in the brain.

Today billions of windshield wipers duplicate the eye’s intermittent blinking. Yet none last as long or work as efficiently as our God-given eyelids.

Comments
UPB 208 & 209 I find it sad in many ways. JVL grasps the situation and is willing to accept the inference. He seems sincere in many ways, interested and open to the evidence right up to the critical point..
his personal belief system
That has to be the problem. There is something blocking his decision-making process. Something needs to be resolved so that the path will open up.Silver Asiatic
April 8, 2021
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UBP - weird coincidence. The first thing I thought of posting to JVL as a response was something like: "You need to review Upright BiPed's analysis of language processing and communications networks and then engage seriously with the argument". I was thinking that he had not seen your argumentation on this. But no, as you said:
JVL stands directly in front of a design inference that is based recorded history and documented experimental results (which he not only cannot refute, but acknowledges as valid), using sound logic (that he himself uses in the same situation, drawing the same conclusion) and he cannot even speak the words.
That's an elegant summary. He's standing right in front of it. He actually leans towards it. Everything is there for him. But he backs away. Then turns and runs.Silver Asiatic
April 8, 2021
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That Darwinists really have no real clue what they are talking about when they mention randomness within the cell, nor a real clue as to exactly how much randomness may actually be in the cell, was touched upon earlier in this thread at post 3 In the OP, this fact about the eye was listed:
“The rod can detect a single photon. Any man-made detector would need to be cooled and isolated from noise to behave the same way”
That fact, along with many other facts, proves that the human body cannot possibly be dominated by nearly as much ‘random thermodynamic jostling’ of atoms as Darwinists, from Harvard no less, tried to falsely portray to the general public in a video they produced in 2013, which was entitled ‘Inner Life of the Cell: Protein Packing’,,,
Inner Life of a Cell | Protein Packing https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHeTQLNFTgU
In the above 2013 video, as you can see, Harvard Biovisions tried to make the inner workings of the cell look as random, chaotic, and haphazard as possible in order to try to dispel any impression of design in the cell that they had inadvertently created in their first 2006 “Inner Life of a Cell” video. Yet, the inner workings of biological systems are found to be not nearly as random and haphazard, (i.e. subjected to ‘random thermodynamic jostling,), as Darwinists, (from Harvard no less), have tried to portray to the general public https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/bbc-cell-film-pays-tribute-to-design-in-nature-without-knowing-it/#comment-725955 In fact, biological systems, far from being a sea of particles that are subjected to intense ‘random thermodynamic jostling’, as was falsely portrayed in the Harvard video, are instead dominated by far more 'calm and smooth' quantum principles. And Darwinian biologists simply have not taken quantum principles into consideration at all in their understanding of biological systems. As Jim Al-Khalili, who is an atheist himself, states in the following video, “To paraphrase, (Erwin Schrödinger in his book “What Is Life”), he says at the molecular level living organisms have a certain order. A structure to them that’s very different from the random thermodynamic jostling of atoms and molecules in inanimate matter of the same complexity. In fact, living matter seems to behave in its order and its structure just like inanimate cooled down to near absolute zero. Where quantum effects play a very important role. There is something special about the structure, about the order, inside a living cell. So Schrodinger speculated that maybe quantum mechanics plays a role in life”.
Jim Al-Khalili, at the 2:30 minute mark of the following video states, “,, Physicists and Chemists have had a long time to try and get use to it (Quantum Mechanics). Biologists, on the other hand have got off lightly in my view. They are very happy with their balls and sticks models of molecules. The balls are the atoms. The sticks are the bonds between the atoms. And when they can’t build them physically in the lab nowadays they have very powerful computers that will simulate a huge molecule.,, It doesn’t really require much in the way of quantum mechanics in the way to explain it.” At the 6:52 minute mark of the video, Jim Al-Khalili goes on to state: “To paraphrase, (Erwin Schrödinger in his book “What Is Life”), he says at the molecular level living organisms have a certain order. A structure to them that’s very different from the random thermodynamic jostling of atoms and molecules in inanimate matter of the same complexity. In fact, living matter seems to behave in its order and its structure just like inanimate cooled down to near absolute zero. Where quantum effects play a very important role. There is something special about the structure, about the order, inside a living cell. So Schrodinger speculated that maybe quantum mechanics plays a role in life”. Jim Al-Khalili – Quantum biology – video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOzCkeTPR3Q
And indeed, Schrodinger’s ‘speculation that ‘quantum mechanics plays a role in life’ has now been confirmed. Every important biological molecule in life is now found to be based on quantum principles, not on ‘random thermodynamic jostling’ principles as Darwinists have presupposed. As the following 2015 paper entitled, “Quantum criticality in a wide range of important biomolecules” stated “Most of the molecules taking part actively in biochemical processes are tuned exactly to the transition point and are critical conductors,” and the researchers further commented that “finding even one (biomolecule) that is in the quantum critical state by accident is mind-bogglingly small and, to all intents and purposes, impossible.,, of the order of 10^-50 of possible small biomolecules and even less for proteins,”,,,
Quantum criticality in a wide range of important biomolecules – Mar. 6, 2015 Excerpt: “Most of the molecules taking part actively in biochemical processes are tuned exactly to the transition point and are critical conductors,” they say. That’s a discovery that is as important as it is unexpected. “These findings suggest an entirely new and universal mechanism of conductance in biology very different from the one used in electrical circuits.” The permutations of possible energy levels of biomolecules is huge so the possibility of finding even one (biomolecule) that is in the quantum critical state by accident is mind-bogglingly small and, to all intents and purposes, impossible.,, of the order of 10^-50 of possible small biomolecules and even less for proteins,”,,, “what exactly is the advantage that criticality confers?” https://medium.com/the-physics-arxiv-blog/the-origin-of-life-and-the-hidden-role-of-quantum-criticality-ca4707924552
And as this follow up article stated, “There is no obvious evolutionary reason why a protein should evolve toward a quantum-critical state, and there is no chance at all that the state could occur randomly.,,,”
Quantum Critical Proteins – Stuart Lindsay – Professor of Physics and Chemistry at Arizona State University – 2018 Excerpt: The difficulty with this proposal lies in its improbability. Only an infinitesimal density of random states exists near the critical point.,, Gábor Vattay et al. recently examined a number of proteins and conducting and insulating polymers.14 The distribution for the insulators and conductors were as expected, but the functional proteins all fell on the quantum-critical distribution. Such a result cannot be a consequence of chance.,,, WHAT OF quantum criticality? Vattay et al. carried out electronic structure calculations for the very large protein used in our work. They found that the distribution of energy-level spacings fell on exactly the quantum-critical distribution, implying that this protein is also quantum critical. There is no obvious evolutionary reason why a protein should evolve toward a quantum-critical state, and there is no chance at all that the state could occur randomly.,,, http://inference-review.com/article/quantum-critical-proteins Gábor Vattay et al., “Quantum Criticality at the Origin of Life,” Journal of Physics: Conference Series 626 (2015); Gábor Vattay, Stuart Kauffman, and Samuli Niiranen, “Quantum Biology on the Edge of Quantum Chaos,” PLOS One 9, no. 3 (2014)
Even DNA itself does not belong to the 'random thermodynamic jostling' of classical mechanics, (as Darwinists have presupposed). but instead belongs to the world of quantum mechanics. In the following video, at the 22:20 minute mark, Dr Rieper shows why the high temperatures of biological systems do not prevent DNA from having quantum entanglement and then at 24:00 minute mark Dr Rieper goes on to remark that practically the whole DNA molecule can be viewed as quantum information with classical information embedded within it.
“What happens is this classical information (of DNA) is embedded, sandwiched, into the quantum information (of DNA). And most likely this classical information is never accessed because it is inside all the quantum information. You can only access the quantum information or the electron clouds and the protons. So mathematically you can describe that as a quantum/classical state.” Elisabeth Rieper – Classical and Quantum Information in DNA – video (Longitudinal Quantum Information resides along the entire length of DNA discussed at the 19:30 minute mark; at 24:00 minute mark Dr Rieper remarks that practically the whole DNA molecule can be viewed as quantum information with classical information embedded within it) https://youtu.be/2nqHOnVTxJE?t=1176
Finding quantum entanglement and/or quantum information to be pervasive in biology, in every important biomolecule, is simple devastating to the reductive materialistic presuppositions of Darwinists. Namely, quantum coherence and/or quantum entanglement is a non-local, beyond space and time, effect that requires a beyond space and time cause in order to explain its existence. As the following paper entitled “Looking beyond space and time to cope with quantum theory” stated, “Our result gives weight to the idea that quantum correlations somehow arise from outside spacetime, in the sense that no story in space and time can describe them,”
Looking beyond space and time to cope with quantum theory – 29 October 2012 Excerpt: “Our result gives weight to the idea that quantum correlations somehow arise from outside spacetime, in the sense that no story in space and time can describe them,” http://www.quantumlah.org/highlight/121029_hidden_influences.php
In their materialistic framework, Darwinists simply have no beyond space and time cause to appeal to, whereas Christian Theists do, Darwinists, with their reductive materialistic framework, simply have no beyond space and time cause that they can appeal so as to be able to explain the non-local quantum coherence and/or entanglement that is now found to be ubiquitous within biology. Whereas on the other hand, Christians readily do have a beyond space and time cause that they can appeal to so as to explain quantum entanglement. As Colossians 1:17 states, “He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.”
Colossians 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
And here is a related video that goes over a few more details as to the fact that biological systems are not nearly as dominated by 'random thermodynamic jostling' as Darwinists, from Harvard no less, had falsely portrayed to the general public.
Darwinian Materialism vs. Quantum Biology – Part II - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSig2CsjKbg
Verse:
Mark 8:37 Is anything worth more than your soul?
bornagain77
April 8, 2021
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. JVL’s entire post at #304 is obese with denial and obfuscation.
UB: But I would like to know the answer to a question. It is actually an old question, posed across cultures around the world. I think this is so, because it perhaps captures some core element of being a human. Now, you know that a fundamental scientific prediction was made about self-replication, and that this prediction was spectacularly confirmed by experiment. And you know (even though you would never admit it) that this prediction, its confirmation, along with the chain of understanding that followed it, including the physical description of the system and its critical requirements, are all on solid scientific footing and they form a completely sound inference to design in biology. Clearly you know all this; it is demonstrated in the way you dodge and weave to avoid it all (comment after comment after comment). My question in this: with all your clumsy defenses against science and reason, are you actually trying to convince me, or yourself? By that I mean, when you come here, knowing what you know, yet still barking out requests for evidence, are you actually trying to convince people who accept the legitimacy of the science to ignore it, or are you just trying to get by with the lowly consequences of your worldview? JVL: I am not ‘barking out requests for evidence’
Upright BiPed
April 8, 2021
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. SA, you might not have been following along over the past months and weeks. Here is JVL’s protectionist double standard: (After clearly acknowledging the validity of the science and history behind the design inference, this is the his sacred cow).
JVL: I would not be surprised at all if we find electromagnetic evidence of intelligent beings in other solar systems UB: How would we know if we found “electromagnetic evidence of intelligent beings”? What would that be? JVL: Something like in the movie Contact. A signal that’s very clearly NOT produced by unguided processes. A signal which, after inspection, was shown to have compressed data. UB: So you accept encoded symbolic content as a universal inference to the presence of an unknown intelligence in one domain, while immediately denying that same physical evidence in another domain. Why the double standard? JVL: Because there is no plausible designer available. – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – UB: When you say “because there is no plausible designer available” you are offering up a distinction that simply doesn’t exist. Does it really not occur to you that neither scenario has a “designer available” until evidence of that designer is discovered and confirmed? You shouldn’t need me to point this out to you. It is specifically the finding of encoded symbolic content that confirms (beyond any reasonable doubt) it is the product of an intelligence. Clearly, if a signal was received from outer space that contained encoded symbolic content in it, then you, like everyone else on the surface of the planet, would immediately (and quite correctly) infer the presence of a previously unknown intelligence. That is to say, the presence of encoded symbolic content is a universal correlate of intelligence. Do you see how that works, JVL? Before the confirmation of a universal correlate, there is no evidence of an intelligence in either scenario. After the confirmation of a universal correlate, the evidence of a previously unknown intelligence objectively exists in both scenarios. But that logical continuity is not how you treat the evidence. You treat the evidence with a gratuitous double standard. In the SETI scenario, encoded symbolic content is a universal correlate of intelligence. In the ID scenario, it isn’t. And it should come as no surprise that if encoded symbolic content is not a universal correlate of intelligence in the second scenario, then it can’t be that in the first scenario either. But does this logical inconsistency bother you? No, it serves your ideological purposes, and that is why you invoke it.
JVL uses a gratuitous double-standard when considering evidence against his personal belief system. And when he is asked to share the “compelling” evidence that supposedly undermines the recorded science and history that forms the design inference, he has nothing of substance to offer. He goes so far as to even acknowledges he has nothing of substance:
UB: I Since you obviously consider it compelling, what exactly is that evidence, and what exactly did it demonstrate? JVL: If it arose via chemical affinities … <b<UB: Stereochemistry is your answer? Some bits stick together better than other bits? How does “some bits stick together better than other bits” explain the presence of a gene? No answer. How does “some bits stick together better than other bits” explain self-reference? No answer. How does “some bits stick together better than other bits” solve the measurement problem? No answer. How does “some bits stick together better than other bits” organize semantic closure? No answer. Saying that stereochemistry is a compelling explanation for the origin of the gene system is like saying “righty tighty lefty loosely” is a compelling explanation for the origin of the space shuttle. It is a compelling explanation that explains nothing whatsoever. JVL: I didn’t say the evidence was now compelling but it seems to be a worthy area of research.
JVL stands directly in front of a design inference that is based recorded history and documented experimental results (which he not only cannot refute, but acknowledges as valid), using sound logic (that he himself uses in the same situation, drawing the same conclusion) and he cannot even speak the words.Upright BiPed
April 8, 2021
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JVL, you just dodged the opportunity and tried to dismiss evidence on the table. Your response is telling us a lot. KFkairosfocus
April 8, 2021
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JVL claims that "I don’t think I said any process in the human body is random except for mutations in cell reproduction. So, what’s the discussion?" Really? Perhaps you can inform James Shapiro of this fact?
"It is difficult (if not impossible) to find a genome change operator that is truly random in its action within the DNA of the cell where it works. All careful studies of mutagenesis find statistically significant non-random patterns” - James Shapiro - Evolution: A View From The 21st Century - (Page 82) Revisiting the Central Dogma in the 21st Century - James A. Shapiro - 2009 Excerpt (Page 12): Underlying the central dogma and conventional views of genome evolution was the idea that the genome is a stable structure that changes rarely and accidentally by chemical fluctuations (106) or replication errors. This view has had to change with the realization that maintenance of genome stability is an active cellular function and the discovery of numerous dedicated biochemical systems for restructuring DNA molecules.(107–110) Genetic change is almost always the result of cellular action on the genome. These natural processes are analogous to human genetic engineering,,, http://shapiro.bsd.uchicago.edu/Shapiro2009.AnnNYAcadSciMS.RevisitingCentral%20Dogma.pdf How life changes itself: the Read-Write (RW) genome. - 2013 Excerpt: Research dating back to the 1930s has shown that genetic change is the result of cell-mediated processes, not simply accidents or damage to the DNA. This cell-active view of genome change applies to all scales of DNA sequence variation, from point mutations to large-scale genome rearrangements and whole genome duplications (WGDs). This conceptual change to active cell inscriptions controlling RW genome functions has profound implications for all areas of the life sciences. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23876611
Of course, if Darwin's Theory were a normal science, this would count as yet another major falsification of the theory, but alas, Darwin's Theory, (since it is really just a religion for atheists masquerading as a science), gets a free pass. To add further insult to injury, recombination of DNA during sexual reproduction is also found to be far less random than was originally presupposed by Darwinists
Duality in the human genome - November 28, 2014 Excerpt: The results also show that genetic mutations do not occur randomly in the two parental chromosome sets and that they are distributed in the same ratio in everyone.,,, The results show that most genes can occur in many different forms within a population: On average, about 250 different forms of each gene exist. The researchers found around four million different gene forms just in the 400 or so genomes they analysed. This figure is certain to increase as more human genomes are examined. More than 85 percent of all genes have no predominant form which occurs in more than half of all individuals. This enormous diversity means that over half of all genes in an individual, around 9,000 of 17,500, occur uniquely in that one person - and are therefore individual in the truest sense of the word. The gene, as we imagined it, exists only in exceptional cases. "We need to fundamentally rethink the view of genes that every schoolchild has learned since Gregor Mendel's time.,,, According to the researchers, mutations of genes are not randomly distributed between the parental chromosomes. They found that 60 percent of mutations affect the same chromosome set and 40 percent both sets. Scientists refer to these as cis and trans mutations, respectively. Evidently, an organism must have more cis mutations, where the second gene form remains intact. "It's amazing how precisely the 60:40 ratio is maintained. It occurs in the genome of every individual – almost like a magic formula," says Hoehe. http://medicalxpress.com/news/2014-11-duality-human-genome.html
As Jonathan Wells has stated, “It’s the organism controlling the DNA, not the DNA controlling the organism.” Or as Denis Noble has stated, DNA is an 'organ of the cell', not its dictator.' Again, if Darwin's Theory were a normal science, this would count as yet another major falsification of the theory, but alas Darwin's Theory, (since it is really just a religion for atheists masquerading as a science), gets a free pass.bornagain77
April 8, 2021
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JVL
There is no physical evidence that such a being can or does exist.
Anything that exists is evidence of a cause.Silver Asiatic
April 8, 2021
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Silver Asiatic: There is no evidence that unguided nature can produce anything close. Some researchers state it is impossible. There is evidence IF there was no designer around to kick-start life on Earth. No present designer means no design. Exactly. To falsify that, we need to see the evidence that codes can be created by unguided physical elements. Show me some independent evidence that there was a designer around at the pertinent time. Until then, ID stands as the best explanation. I would disagree because you have no separate evidence of a designer present at the pertinent time. That's pure conjecture. the proposal that there exists a greater, immaterial intelligence is reasonable. I disagree. There is no physical evidence that such a being can or does exist. And I thought we were talking about evidence. Logical evidence is evidence. It’s a necessary part of reasoning. We must accept the Law of non-contradiction, otherwise we cannot reason or communicate. At some point logical evidence pointed to there being no black swans. Logic is subject to our experience. Just like all data.JVL
April 8, 2021
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JVL I don’t think I said any process in the human body is random except for mutations in cell reproduction. So, what’s the discussion?
:) You don't know that. You only assert that. Give me a link where somebody prove that. PS: To make such a statement you have to know everything about cell. You don't know ,nobody know except the Engineer that produced the prototype. The Bible say about atheists that are crazy. It's the ultimate craziness to say that life on Earth ,a masterpiece made by a Supreme Mind, appeared by chance.Lieutenant Commander Data
April 8, 2021
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JVL
What you have is a supposed abstract ‘code’ which has been proposed to have been an arbitrary accident or ‘choice’. You do not have independent evidence of a designer.
The presence of a coded-language within a communication circuit (sender-translation-receiver-response-function) is evidence of an intelligent source. That's how SETI works. We look for language signals - that means there's intelligence at work. The code is specified for highly-sophisticated functions. This is positive evidence. There is no evidence that unguided nature can produce anything close. Some researchers state it is impossible.
ID says: only intelligent designers can create abstract and arbitrary codes based on our experience. Since DNA is an abstract and arbitrary code the best explanation is an intelligent designer.
Exactly. To falsify that, we need to see the evidence that codes can be created by unguided physical elements.
But . . . what if it isn’t a completely abstract and arbitrary code? What if it’s based on some basic chemical affinities? As some research suggests.
Then that ID proposal is falsified. Until then, ID stands as the best explanation. We don't hold out and say "maybe there's a better one" without affirming that we have a "best one" already.
Our experience of intelligent designers is limited to human beings, anything past that is speculation. And I thought we were avoiding that.
I mentioned SETI but we are aware of design created by animal intelligence also, so not just human. Since there is a low-level intelligence in various forms of life (some say in plants) with increasing power and range up to human intelligence - the proposal that there exists a greater, immaterial intelligence is reasonable.
Assertions are not evidence. If you want to restrict the discussion to actual evidence then please do so.
Logical evidence is evidence. It's a necessary part of reasoning. We must accept the Law of non-contradiction, otherwise we cannot reason or communicate. It is a contradiction to propose that the material universe was created by a material factor. 1. For a thing to begin to exist means that "beginning" is a starting point, before which the thing did not exist. 2. "Today I baked a cake which had never existed before. But that same cake existed last week." That's a contradiction. 3. The material universe (all aspects of what is material) began to exist. Before then, it did not exist. 4. To say that something material caused all material aspects to exist is a logical contradiction. That's logical evidence.Silver Asiatic
April 8, 2021
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Sandy: ? Tell us 1 single process in human body that is RANDOM. Case closed. I don't think I said any process in the human body is random except for mutations in cell reproduction. So, what's the discussion?JVL
April 8, 2021
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JVL Why don’t you bring up a particular bit of physical evidence that you find compelling and we can, hopefully, have a productive discussion. Don’t just make sweeping generalisations overburdened with vague statements. Let’s talk about the actually evidence. Pick a case.
:) Tell us 1 single process in human body that is RANDOM. Case closed.Sandy
April 8, 2021
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Kairosfocus: JVL, do you hear the echo in the cave, at this point you are projecting. Do you want to talk about evidence and data or just ideology? Why don't you bring up a particular bit of physical evidence that you find compelling and we can, hopefully, have a productive discussion. Don't just make sweeping generalisations overburdened with vague statements. Let's talk about the actually evidence. Pick a case.JVL
April 8, 2021
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Silver Asiatic: However, we find 3 empty gasoline containers in different parts of the house. We find the hottest parts of the fire were in 3 select locations – adjacent to the cans. You do not have that kind of indicators regarding the origin of life on Earth and an intelligent designer. The truth is: no one knows. You don't have your 'cans' as evidence. You don't have any supporting physical evidence at all. What you have is a supposed abstract 'code' which has been proposed to have been an arbitrary accident or 'choice'. You do not have independent evidence of a designer. ID says: only intelligent designers can create abstract and arbitrary codes based on our experience. Since DNA is an abstract and arbitrary code the best explanation is an intelligent designer. But . . . what if it isn't a completely abstract and arbitrary code? What if it's based on some basic chemical affinities? As some research suggests. Our experience of intelligent designers is limited to human beings, anything past that is speculation. And I thought we were avoiding that. The physical-material universe cannot be created by that which is physical, but by what is immaterial and non-physical.k Assertions are not evidence. If you want to restrict the discussion to actual evidence then please do so.JVL
April 8, 2021
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PS: The ideological bias driving the imposition of evolutionary materialistic scientism is clear from Monod, yes, a Nobel Prize winner [and French Resistance fighter]: https://uncommondescent.com/atheism/monods-objectivity-naturalistic-scientism-and-begging-big-questions/
[T]he basic premise of the scienti?c method, . . . [is] that nature is objective and not projective [= a project of an agent]. Hence it is through reference to our own activity, con-scious and projective, intentional and purposive-it is as | makers of artifacts-that we judge of a given object’s “naturalness” or “arti?cialness.” [pp. 3 – 4, Chance and Necessity, 1971] . . . . [T]he postulate of objectivity is consubstantial with science: it has guided the whole of its prodigious develop-ment for three centuries. There is no way to be rid of it, even tentatively or in a limited area, without departing from the domain of science itself. [p. 21] On a TV interview: [T]he scientific attitude implies what I call the postulate of objectivity—that is to say, the fundamental postulate that there is no plan, that there is no intention in the universe. Now, this is basically incompatible with virtually all the religious or metaphysical systems whatever, all of which try to show that there is some sort of harmony between man and the universe and that man is a product—predictable if not indispensable—of the evolution of the universe.— Jacques Monod [Quoted in John C. Hess, ‘French Nobel Biologist Says World Based On Chance’, New York Times (15 Mar 1971), p. 6. Cited in Herbert Marcuse, Counter-Revolution and Revolt (1972), p. 66.]
Ideology, not evidence.kairosfocus
April 8, 2021
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JVL, do you hear the echo in the cave, at this point you are projecting. There is no preponderance of evidence favouring blind chance and mechanical necessity as plausibly causing FSCO/I in Darwin's pond or anywhere in the cosmos. There are trillions of observed cases of FSCO/I coming about by design. The string data structures in the living cells speak eloquently as to their empirically warranted cause -- coding, we call it these days, used to be programming. KFkairosfocus
April 8, 2021
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JVL
Let’s suppose a cabin in the woods burns down. We know that humans can set and cause fires. That doesn’t mean that particular fire was cause by a human. It could have been lightning. I’ve never seen a fire caused by lightning so how do I know that can happen?
You're walking along the right pathway of reasoning, but then falling short when the most plausible and reasonable solution arises. Yes, a cabin burns down. Now we do some forensics work. It could have been lightning. It could have been the heat of the sun - or even some other unknown natural cause (sparks off of stones). However, we find 3 empty gasoline containers in different parts of the house. We find the hottest parts of the fire were in 3 select locations - adjacent to the cans. So the lightning struck three times, hitting all three gas cans simultaneously, knocking them over in separate parts of the house? Or the cans spontaneously tipped over and started on fire? No - we have positive evidence of intelligent design in this case. The cans are evidence of a plan and purpose - which eliminates natural causes. The same is true in Origin of Life - we have positive evidence of coded-language which is an artifact of intelligence. That points to a designer - not a natural cause. The physical-material universe cannot be created by that which is physical, but by what is immaterial and non-physical.Silver Asiatic
April 8, 2021
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Kairosfocus: So, I think we can safely conclude, bluff called. Draw whatever conclusions you wish. I still find the preponderance of the evidence in favour of unguided evolution. If you'd like to ask me, respectfully, about certain bits of data or evidence then I'll be happy to respond. If you're just going to tell me I'm wrong then I'm much more likely to ignore you.JVL
April 8, 2021
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JVL, this very thread provides abundant evidence of intelligence providing FSCO/I, in the form of code bearing informational strings well beyond the ASCII form threshold, at 7 bits per character. We have an observation base of trillions of cases of such FSCO/I, just start with the Internet, and go to a hardware store and look at screws for the organisation side. In every case, the source is design, and we can readily see that search challenge in config spaces for 500 to 1,000 bits for the atoms of the sol system at the low end and for the observed cosmos at the high end for ~ 10^17 s would round down to negligible search. That's why; essentially the reasoning behind the stat mech support to the 2nd law of thermodynamics. Further to this, again, March 22, I presented an excerpt on the infinite monkeys theorem as a test, precisely as a case in point https://uncommondescent.com/education/wikipedia-presents-pseudo-knowledge-fake-knowledge-on-id-yet-again/ The result was 10^100 as a factor short of a 72 character ASCII string. Now, you have been around UD for a while so you should know about such and certainly you know about the nature of DNA as a code bearing complex string in the heart of the cell. This implies complex code, algorithms, i.e. linguistic, goal directed information, which on factors on the table is a strong sign of design as cause. So, I think we can safely conclude, bluff called. KFkairosfocus
April 8, 2021
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Jerry 288 That was insightful. Mr. Krebs is expert enough in evolutionary theory to set educational standards as curriculum director and says he has "an anthropology degree, with background especially in human evolution and the evolution of behavior." Challenged several times on that thread - he came back with nothing. Zero. Allen_McNeill tried to cover for him with some rhetoric, but underneath that also they have nothing to show to defend their own theory. Instead, they turn around and attack ID or get involved in tangential disputes about attitudes and forum-behavior. I remember back then. The evolutionists were a bit more arrogant and uneducated. So, they've gained a little humility, but have added nothing towards empirical demonstrations of their claims.Silver Asiatic
April 8, 2021
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Jerry: We get the same evasion today with the same disingenuous excuses. Nothing has changed. I'm not responsible for what other people have said or done. Like I said: I'm happy to answer questions about my own personal views and reasons. As I have said many times the most interesting question is not whether there is research supporting evolutionary biology or not but why is there an unwillingness to provide an honest answer? The respondents know what they are doing is evading a relevant question but pretend in all seriousness they are being forthright. I've not looked at the threads in question and I'm certainly not going to answer for anyone else. BUT, do you think it's possible that sometimes people are hesitant to respond honestly because of what they guess will be the response? Like, for instance: when I ask ID supporters when they think design was implemented do you think it's possible they think I will mock them if they answer honestly? I think many unguided evolutionary supporters have admitted that we don't really know how life got started on Earth. And that is the truth. It doesn't mean researchers are just tossing in the towel and giving up. It is a complicated and difficult problem and it's going to take a long time to finish exhausting the possible lines of experimentation.JVL
April 8, 2021
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Silver Asiatic: You’ve affirmed that there is no demonstrable evidence for the origin of life from non-living matter. We know that the irreducible elements of life can be modeled by human intelligence. This is evidence that intelligence was involved in that origin. It's not evidence, it's a possible explanation. Let's suppose a cabin in the woods burns down. We know that humans can set and cause fires. That doesn't mean that particular fire was cause by a human. It could have been lightning. I've never seen a fire caused by lightning so how do I know that can happen? A designer is not being forced in. We see that which appears to be designed (as Dawkins affirms). We recognize that unguided processes do not, as yet, produce the design (origin of life). Intelligence is the most probable cause. Not if there was no designer around at the time. How do you know there was a designer around at the time with the necessary skills? This is one of the reasons I find the unguided explanation more plausible: it doesn't hypothesise any unknown causes. An alien designer does not answer the problem of fine-tuning of the universe. The universe had a beginning, thus was caused by something outside of the universe. This is the first, uncreated, immaterial, omnipotent cause – which we call God. Interestingly enough I've been hearing about some new physics data which suggests no designer was necessary. So, again, which explanation is more plausible? One which supposes an unknown and undetected cause or agent or one that doesn't? I think the acceptance of a supreme being is at the heart of the debate: you and many others have a personal and immediate reason for accepting the existence of a supreme, loving being. I don't. So it comes down to physical evidence. In my mind.JVL
April 8, 2021
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On the thread linked to in the thread above, the next comment is by Dave Scot to another expert on evolutionary biology, Allen MacNeill, who taught evolutionary biology at Cornell
During the course of evolution there ostensibly appeared many novel cell types, tissue types, organs, and body plans. Any theory of evolution must account for the origin of those. If it does not then it’s only a partial theory which avoids the most difficult questions. How is it NOT a salient question to ask if any of these occurred over 70 million years on the Hawaiian islands? I understand why you’d wish to change the subject back to microevolution. But we aren’t really concerned about microevolution. We accept that species change over time due to recombination and natural selection. What we don’t accept is random mutation & natural selection building complex structures from scratch. Not in 5 million years, not in 70 million years, not in 500 million years, and not in 3 billion years. I offered a testable hypothesis based on an ID theoretic view that the clades in the Hawaiin islands can all be derived from a common ancestor by rearranging genetic information that was already present in the ancestor. That you want to change the subject instead of addressing the hypothesis speaks volumes about this whole debate. We are asking for explanations about macroevolution and you change the subject to microevolution. Answer the question or admit that you can’t.
Response was crickets. As I have said many times the most interesting question is not whether there is research supporting evolutionary biology or not but why is there an unwillingness to provide an honest answer? The respondents know what they are doing is evading a relevant question but pretend in all seriousness they are being forthright.jerry
April 8, 2021
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Why is it so hard just to have a civilised, agree-to-disagree conversation?
We have had many in the past. In fact the exact same challenge was once made to an evolutionary biologist who was part of a group responsible for setting guidelines on the teaching of evolution. His name was Jack Krebs, Here is the thread and just see how Jack avoids backing anything of substance on the teaching of evolution. One would think a recognized expert could at least provide something. But he couldn't. Anyone interested in how this conversation went can go to https://uncommondescent.com/evolution/complex-speciation-of-humans-and-chimpanzees/#comment-186360 It took place 13 years ago. From the linked comment, To the expert on evolution.
Prove me or the other ID proponents here wrong. That is all we ask. There is a whole world out there that mocks and disdains those who support ID. Use them as resources. We would welcome the discussion.
What happened on this very long thread after this was evasion by Jack Krebs. As were all his comments before. We get the same evasion today with the same disingenuous excuses. Nothing has changed.jerry
April 8, 2021
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JVL
For me, the most plausible explanation based on the knowledge and evidence we have now is: unguided processes. You can hypothesise an intelligent designer but where is the evidence (aside from the contested objects) that there was one about?
You've affirmed that there is no demonstrable evidence for the origin of life from non-living matter. We know that the irreducible elements of life can be modeled by human intelligence. This is evidence that intelligence was involved in that origin.
Has it ever occurred to you that trying to force a designer into the mix is not that much different from believing it was all down to unguided processes?
A designer is not being forced in. We see that which appears to be designed (as Dawkins affirms). We recognize that unguided processes do not, as yet, produce the design (origin of life). Intelligence is the most probable cause. An alien designer does not answer the problem of fine-tuning of the universe. The universe had a beginning, thus was caused by something outside of the universe. This is the first, uncreated, immaterial, omnipotent cause - which we call God.Silver Asiatic
April 8, 2021
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JVL states,
While I appreciate the invitation to ‘prove ID wrong’ or to ‘prove unguided evolution true’ we all know that the arguments and reasons I would give would be the same ones you’ve all heard many, many times before.,,,
Oh come on now, don't be bashful. I certainly have not of anyone coming close to falsifying ID and collecting Perry Marshall's 10 million dollar prize in the process. If you know who did it, please tell us. And If no one has done it yet, I want to start a petition immediately to get this mad super genius every scientific prize on the planet, perhaps even get him a ticker tape parade in NYC.,, His own postage stamp even. Shoot name a small nation after the guy! :)
Evolution 2.0 Prize: Unprecedented $10 Million Offered To Replicate Cellular Evolution – 14 Jan, 2020, Excerpt: An incentive prize ten times the size of the Nobel – believed to be the largest single award ever in basic science – is being offered to the person or team solving the largest mystery in history: how genetic code inside cells got there, and how cells intentionally self-organize, communicate, then purposely adapt. This $10 million challenge, the Evolution 2.0 Prize can be found at http://www.evo2.org. The new international competition is intended to speed breakthroughs around the still unknown process of cell communication that organizers predict can turn off cancer, allow robots to think for themselves and even create new plant life to combat climate change. The Evolution 2.0 Prize is designed by Chicago engineer-turned-marketer-turned-business consultant Perry Marshall and his A-list team of partners. They include top genetic experts from Harvard and Oxford, plus a diverse group of investors from private banking, healthcare and biotechnology, software, real estate, publishing and more. “A germ resisting antibiotics does more programming in 12 minutes than a team of Google engineers can do in 12 days,” said Marshall. “One blade of grass is 10,000 years ahead of any computer. If a single firm in Silicon Valley held a fraction of the secrets of this natural code inside a single cell, they’d set the NASDAQ on fire. https://www.prnewswire.com/in/news-releases/evolution-2-0-prize-unprecedented-10-million-offered-to-replicate-cellular-evolution-875038146.html
bornagain77
April 8, 2021
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Silver Asiatic: It is a leap of faith to think that blind, unguided nature can produce origin of life. This is an honest admission on your part. However, doesn’t this leave the strongest and most compelling evidence that only intelligence could produce the result? Agreed that the idea of an alien agent doing the work only pushes the problem back. But for what we observe, there has to be a cause. Why not a leap of faith in the idea that there was an Intelligent Designer? In all other cases when we know some artefact was created by a (human) intelligent designer we have other evidence that a human or group of humans was around at the time. We've got nothing like that for the origin of life. Plus, the nature of the 'design' seems to indicate something unplanned, in my opinion. So, I find the undesigned case stronger. Like I said: if we find a message or statement (or a crashed ship, or living quarters, or spent fuel rods, or a latrine, or . . . ) left behind by some alien race that seems to date from the right time then I'm happy to change my opinion. Our current knowledge tells us that the vast distances, the energy it would take, and the time it would take makes interstellar travel pretty daunting. IF our knowledge changes then my opinion changes. I consider the alien visitation scenario unlikely based on what we know now of how it could be done. For me, the most plausible explanation based on the knowledge and evidence we have now is: unguided processes. You can hypothesise an intelligent designer but where is the evidence (aside from the contested objects) that there was one about? I don't mean to offend but it does sound a bit like the Erich von Daniken arguments for ancient alien astronauts: we don't know how the locals could have done this and we're going to interpret some of their paintings and writings as evidence of alien visitation so, ta da, ancient alien astronauts. But if the interpretation is wrong the whole thing falls apart. No aliens means the local Egyptians built the pyramids, the local Brits build Stonehenge, etc. Has it ever occurred to you that trying to force a designer into the mix is not that much different from believing it was all down to unguided processes? Both arguments are looking at the same data, the same evidence and guessing the cause. They are just hypotheses. Which is why I look around to see if there's more evidence or data to support aliens. Trying to simulate conditions in the wild with software would mean an intelligently designed solution, but even that has not been close to having been achieved. Even a guided process has not been able to bring the elements together like that. If blind, unguided nature supposedly created life from non-life, we should be able to do the same thing in a lab with chemicals – directed specifically to that result. Yeah, possibly. But it depends on knowing what the conditions on the early Earth were. And that seems to be a moving target. So it's not clear how to 'guide' the process, not yet anyway. AND it seems to have taken thousands if not millions of years. How long are you willing to wait for the 'primordial soup' to do its thing?JVL
April 8, 2021
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JVL
A bit of software . . . probably not that as the software would have to be intelligently designed.
Trying to simulate conditions in the wild with software would mean an intelligently designed solution, but even that has not been close to having been achieved. Even a guided process has not been able to bring the elements together like that. If blind, unguided nature supposedly created life from non-life, we should be able to do the same thing in a lab with chemicals - directed specifically to that result.Silver Asiatic
April 8, 2021
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JVL
I do accept that hypothesising an, as of yet undemonstrated, unguided origin of life is a bit of a leap (of faith?) at this point but as I don’t see strong, compelling evidence of any being around at the time who could have started everything going.
It is a leap of faith to think that blind, unguided nature can produce origin of life. This is an honest admission on your part. However, doesn't this leave the strongest and most compelling evidence that only intelligence could produce the result? Agreed that the idea of an alien agent doing the work only pushes the problem back. But for what we observe, there has to be a cause. Why not a leap of faith in the idea that there was an Intelligent Designer?Silver Asiatic
April 8, 2021
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