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Getting Over Our Love for Darwin

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Getting Over Our Love for Darwin
By William A. Dembski
Posted Tuesday, November 03, 2009

http://www.texanonline.net/default.asp?action=article&aid=6474&issue

Charles Darwin published his “Origin of Species” in 1859. There he presented the classic formulation of his theory of evolution. Lady Ashley, reacting to the theory at the time, remarked, “Let’s hope that it’s not true; but if it is true, let’s hope that it doesn’t become widely known.” Lady Ashley’s second hope has failed: Darwin’s theory is everywhere and has now become textbook orthodoxy. This year, universities around the globe are celebrating the 150th anniversary of Darwin’s “Origin of Species” as well as the 200th anniversary of his birth.

But what about Lady Ashley’s hope that Darwin’s theory is false? Darwin presented a bleak picture of ourselves: we are mere modified apes; we are the “winners” in a brutal competitive evolutionary process, most of whose players are “losers,” wiped off the evolutionary scene before they could leave a legacy; the traditional Christian view that we are made in God’s image is simply a story we tell to convince ourselves that we’re special. 

Intelligent design supporters like me view Darwin’s theory as untrue and even as laughable: The theory purports to give a materialistic account of life’s development once life is already here, but it has a gaping hole at the start since matter gives no evidence of being able to organize itself from non-life into life. The fossil record, especially the sudden emergence of most animal body plans in the Cambrian explosion, sharply violates Darwinian expectations about the historical pattern of evolutionary change. The nano-engineering found in the DNA, RNA, and proteins of the cell far exceeds human engineering and remains completely unexplained in Darwinian terms.

Darwin lovers are quick to reject such complaints.  After all, as novelist Barbara Kingsolver declares, Darwin’s idea of natural selection is “the greatest, simplest, most elegant logical construct ever to dawn across our curiosity about the workings of natural life. It is inarguable, and it explains everything.” Kingsolver is no fan of Christianity. Yet many Darwin lovers are Christian. Francis Collins, who directs the National Institutes of Health, is a Christian Darwinist. Leaving aside a healthy skepticism that regards every scientific theory as refutable in light of new evidence, Collins exempts Darwinian evolution from such skepticism: “evolution, as a mechanism, can be and must be true.”

Any theory that explains everything and that can and must be true is either the greatest thing since sliced bread or the greatest swindle ever foisted on gullible intellectuals. The intelligent design community takes the latter view, siding here with Malcolm Muggeridge, who wrote: “I myself am convinced that the theory of evolution, especially the extent to which it’s been applied, will be one of the great jokes in the history books in the future. Posterity will marvel that so very flimsy and dubious an hypothesis could be accepted with the incredible credulity that it has.”

Still, it’s easy to understand why so flimsily a supported theory garners such vast support. It provides the creation story for an atheistic worldview. If atheism is true, then something like Darwinian evolution must follow. Hence, any attack on Darwin becomes an attack on the atheistic secularism that pervades our culture. Nonetheless, even though atheism implies Darwinism, the reverse is not true: Darwinism does not imply atheism. Indeed, Christian theists who embrace Darwin abound.

The wedding between Darwinism and Christianity, however, is an uneasy one. To be sure, plenty of marriages are uneasy, and uneasy marriages are often endured because divorce can entail more difficulties than endurance. Thus, when I got involved with the evolution controversy 20 years ago, I naively thought that any Christian, given sufficient evidence against Darwinism, would immediately jump ship. Darwinian evolution, according to Cornell historian of biology Will Provine, is “the greatest engine of atheism ever invented.” Why should Christians stick with such an engine when it’s no longer needed?

Little did I realize how infatuated many Christians are with Darwin. Having convinced themselves that design is an outdated religious dogma, they embraced Darwinism as a form of enlightenment. And having accommodated their faith to Darwin, they became loath to reexamine whether Darwinism is true at all. Unlike Lady Ashley, Christian Darwinists hope that Darwinism is true. But is it really? In this year of Darwinian bacchanalias, let us soberly reassess whether Darwin’s theory is indeed true. And if the evidence goes against it, as the intelligent design community is successfully demonstrating, then let’s be done with it. In that case, reconciling Christianity with Darwinism becomes a vain exercise, solving a problem that no longer exists.
 
­William A. Dembski is research professor in philosophy at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary and is the author of prominent books in the field of intelligent design, including The Design of Life: Discovering Signs of Intelligence in Biological Systems, written with biologist Jonathan Wells.

Comments
Besides Born, what else is Allen even doing at his post in 89 except personally attacking you? It is not like he used actual quotes from your post at 86 which clearly demonstrate his concern over the "procedure" or style which with you argued. When allen dismisses our arguments as ad hominems all he has done is used the term ad hominem as an adhominem. Allen just wants to respond to posts that he thinks he win the arguments of. All others are ad hominems to him. And Allen proves he is a fraud when he delivers the king od ad hominems against me here... "Frost122585’s argument in comment #33 is what is known as the “No True Scotsman” argument and is entirely fallacious. To be specific, Frost122585 asserts without supporting evidence of any kind that his definition of a “true Christian” is the only valid definition. Why should anyone who is interested in rational debate pay any attention to Frost122585’s utterly fallacious and profoundly counterproductive (not to mention divisive) argument?" Here is is personally slandering me. This is not the language of man deeply concerned with ad hominems.All Allen is doing is argueing for a realtivistic view of Christainity where all definiiton's of Christnaiity are equal. THis is total nonsense. It is a theological discussion that would require quite a bit of detail for me to define what I caonsider to be a Christain. It would certainly include Romans which wipes the floor clean of so called Christain Darwinists. Let me be cleat that i am stating an opinion here an not trying to make an argument of any kind. Allen is nothing but a psud-intellectual who next to nothing about logic and for most of his recent posts has done nothing but personally attack people while hypocrtically calling them the ones who only resort to Ad hominems. Wow. Almost none of his postgs have any substance whatsoever yet he has the audacity to criticize the long and developed posts of both Born and myself. What a fraud.Frost122585
November 14, 2009
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Born, thank you for being smart enough to see through Allen's strategy which is to censor the substance of the debate so that only his side can use ad hominems like conflating ID to scripture or creationism. It is the anti- ID side that are the True ones using ad hominems. For example almost every article you read about ID conflates it with creationism. Do you know why? Because the strategy is to disregard ID - that is silence its advocates by calling them creationists. In fact that is EXACTLY what Richard Dawkins did to Stephen Meyer when Meyer recently challanged him to a debate. Anyone who has read both Dawkins and Meyer and seen them speak publicly can tell Meyer is way above Dawkins intellectually- but Dawkin's lack of intellectual superioity does not excuse him from calling Steve a creationist. So it is just another case of what their side likes to call Freudian projection- to say IDists are the ones using ad hominems attacks merely because we exercise our freedom of speech to say what we think their motivations and intentions are from time to time. I relality people like Allen just know they are wong and cannot win unless the debate is rigged- sp instead of argueing poltely against assertios and arguments of the IDists they just try to lableing us as people who only use ad hominems. BTW, if you read the wiki article on ad hominems- while they use a modernist definition of what ad hominem means (that is they extend it to everything instead of what it is really meant to mean which is a fallacy of name calling)- they are forced by this general definition to admit that ad hominems "are not" fallacies. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem But once again this article is poor- and it fails to clearly distinguish the difference between ad hominems and red herrings. A true ad hominem is a name calling or lableing fallacy. That is if you said "you cant believe him because he is a liar" or a creationist or a democrat or a homosexual or a minority, or Darwinist or a rock star or stupid Etc.Frost122585
November 14, 2009
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Allen, I ain't attacking you personally as a man (being full of faults myself how can I?), but I am fully calling your abilities to practice science to account and holding you personally responsible for such shoddy workmanship. If your feelings are hurt I'm sorry. But If you want to avoid IDists exposing you as a fraud scientifically, practically every time you dare post your 43 variations of deception or whatever, then for goodness sake tighten your science up to standards worthy to be respected and quit posting stuff under such false pretense of being the truth.bornagain77
November 14, 2009
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The "comments" in #86 so clearly demonstrate precisely the point I have been making about not responding to ad hominem attacks that I hardly need mention it, except to point out that this kind of "argument" is why I do not respond to personal attacks and why I strongly recommend that all others (on both sides of the issue) who value reasoned argument adopt the same policy. In brief: DFTTAllen_MacNeill
November 14, 2009
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CLAVDIVS But the common (and original) meaning of the word “Darwinism” is just the mechanism of Darwin’s theory, independent of any particular philosophical or theological interpretation of it. No :-) Well, I really can’t agree that academia has the sort of total global intellectual control that you imply. It doesn't have global control, but in the areas in which it does control, it uses its power in unscientific fashion to make life miserable for dissenters.tribune7
November 14, 2009
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Intelligent design necessarily implies an intelligent designer, with a mind, doesn’t it?
Sure, but not one that pre-existed before, or outside of, time. When the designer existed is not addressed by ID.
Oh, I agree. I only meant a mind that pre-existed the phenomenon exhibiting design, not pre-existing the universe in a theological sense.
It wouldn’t falsify God but it would falsify the hypotheses put forth by Dembski and Behe and this board and that is what we mean by ID. ID is not a proof of God.
And why not just call Darwin’s theory “evolution”, and people who accept it “evolutionists”?
Because the fight ID has isn’t with evolution but with undirected evolution.
That's exactly my point. I understand that you are using the word "Darwinism" to mean "the atheist interpretation of Darwin's theory". But the common (and original) meaning of the word "Darwinism" is just the mechanism of Darwin's theory, independent of any particular philosophical or theological interpretation of it. Now, in order to avoid confusion, ID proponents insist that the mechanisms of ID theory should be viewed separately from any particular philosophical or theological interpretations of it. This is why it is wrong to use the term "intelligent design creationists". What I am saying is, ID proponents should show equal care to avoid the word "Darwinism", unless it is carefully qualified. The only people who think evolution is undirected are atheists. Atheists think everything is undirected. But I have never met a theist, much less a Christian, who thought evolution was undirected. So I think ID's true opponent is atheism, not Darwin's theory.
ID can easily co-exist peacefully with evolution. Michael Behe is an evolutionist in the way you advocate, as was Dave Scott, the board’s former moderator.
Does Dr Dembski accept common descent including humans, like Prof Behe? I don't know, I can't tell from his writings. This may be due to the confusing use of the word "Darwinism".
But the reason why ID is censored and attacked via non-scientific means by those who control academia is its insistence that design can be inferred and is evident in life.
Well, I really can't agree that academia has the sort of total global intellectual control that you imply. In any case, my understanding is that academia has rejected certain specific methods for detecting design because they can't be properly tested to an academic standard. Cheers C.CLAVDIVS
November 14, 2009
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Allen McNeil states: "I strongly recommend that everyone who values rational argument (regardless of which side of the issues being debated here you support) not respond to posts or comments (from either side of the debate) that contain ad hominem attacks, insults, or ridicule." But McNeill that is the whole point your side is completely irrational, the Evolution/Darwinism boat has been blown out of the water so many times that Idists are now just blowing up floating debris, and there ain't much debris left to blow up!!! That you would pretend under an air of authority that this matters not in the least is an insult to me as a human being,,,because I AM A HUMAN and your insanity reflects directly on me and makes me ashamed in a deep sense, that I have to actually consider that you would actually take the 43 variations of deception seriously. If you find it offensive that I hold you accountable to scientific integrity and get upset with you, and call you directly on it, when you so flagrantly abuse the miracle of science, to further your philosophical agenda, then stop practicing science in such a horrid way!bornagain77
November 13, 2009
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Allen, I missed this, sorry: A falling object’s path is neither random nor “unguided” (i.e. by the force of gravity), yet it is clearly “natural”, is it not? Yes, the path is natural, but if you have a wish to demolish a shed and wait for undirected falling object to do it for you, your shed is very likely not going to be demolished. If your wish is to have a shelter and you wait for a series of undirected falling objects do it for you, you are never going to get it. Genomic change is a natural force. Natural selection which fixes genomic change is also a natural force. These forces by themselves do not have the power to account for all biodiversity.tribune7
November 13, 2009
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Allen, Your posts are crazy. Look what you wrote here... "Finally, it seems somewhat paradoxical to me that Dr. Dembski, who has asserted on multiple occasions (as have many commentators at the website) that ID is not incompatible with the theory of evolution, but rather only with the idea that evolution is unguided, should post an essay in which the thrust of his argument is that Darwin’s theory of evolution is wrong." This is totally backwards. ID IS totally compatible with evolution- but it is not compatible with Darwinian Evolution- or what is known as the Neo-Darwinian synthesis- which is the UNGUIDED theory of evolution. Darwin's whole deal was to remove the need for teleology. I am not saying at all that one must believe in God to agree with ID. I have said the total opposite that in fact I know an atheist who thinks ID is a theory- though he does not think he designer is any kind of personal God- and he does not think it is a God of any sort but more like a kind of "intelligent force"- more a platonic reality from which all things come- but not benevolent or interested in people or it's creation. I have made a negative claim though that if one is a Darwinist- that is, if you claim to think that life came from random processes of chance and redundent laws- then you are not a theist. Yu might be some kind of a Diest- but even if you are you have to explain how you know of God or why you believe- and just pointing to the laws is not an answer because Darwinian Evolution pays no tribute to the selection mechanism as being teleological. That is Darwin called it "natural selection" so as to distinguish it from "teleological, or divine selection." So to say that all Darwinists are atheists is not the same s to say all IDists are Theists. And this is just the Truth.Frost122585
November 13, 2009
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Re #79: I have clearly and repeatedly stated that I will not respond to comments or questions that contain ad hominem attacks (i.e. attacks against my person, rather than against the logic of my arguments or evidence with which I support them). Ergo, anyone who includes ad hominem attacks, insults, or ridicule of me (or anyone else) in the posts or comments is not only not worth responding to, such a person is deliberately undermining the very basis for rational argument. I strongly recommend that everyone who values rational argument (regardless of which side of the issues being debated here you support) not respond to posts or comments (from either side of the debate) that contain ad hominem attacks, insults, or ridicule.Allen_MacNeill
November 13, 2009
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CLAVDIVS Intelligent design necessarily implies an intelligent designer, with a mind, doesn’t it? Sure, but not one that pre-existed before, or outside of, time. When the designer existed is not addressed by ID. Which wouldn’t falsify ID, only the hypotheses that certain specific methods proposed to detect ID don’t work. It wouldn't falsify God but it would falsify the hypotheses put forth by Dembski and Behe and this board and that is what we mean by ID. ID is not a proof of God. And why not just call Darwin’s theory “evolution”, and people who accept it “evolutionists”? Because the fight ID has isn't with evolution but with undirected evolution. ID can easily co-exist peacefully with evolution. Michael Behe is an evolutionist in the way you advocate, as was Dave Scott, the board's former moderator. But the reason why ID is censored and attacked via non-scientific means by those who control academia is its insistence that design can be inferred and is evident in life. Those who control how things are defined insist that everything is possible without design. To say that this is not possible -- as Dembski, Behe and others do in a measurable, testable and objective fashion -- is an enormous threat to them.tribune7
November 13, 2009
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tribune7
Since before I ever heard of ID I was of the opinion that one plausible explanation for such features was a pre-existing mind. The “core” of ID thinking seems to me to agree with this.
Then I think you misunderstand ID since it does not address a pre-existing mind. Nor does it address variation, selection or common ancestry. It simply says that design has unique traits and that these traits are found in life.
Intelligent design necessarily implies an intelligent designer, with a mind, doesn't it? Design without a designer seems like a plain contradiction to me.
Now it could turn out that design doesn’t have the unique traits ID says it has such as complex specified information or irreducible complexity.
Which wouldn't falsify ID, only the hypotheses that certain specific methods proposed to detect ID don't work.
Regardless, ID as a science addresses neither descent with modification nor God. Where ID is incompatible with Darwinism (not evolution) is over Darwinism’s claim that everything could have come about without design (or planning or direction or however you wish to phrase it.)
I repeat what I said before: The claim that everything could have come about without design is a claim of atheism, not Darwin's theory. So I think you are thoroughly confusing the issue by using the word "Darwinism" to refer to philosophical atheism or materialism. Darwin was notable for his theory of evolution, not atheism (on the contrary, I believe he called himself agnostic in later life). Why not just call a spade a spade and refer to the belief that only material processes exist as "atheism"? And why not just call Darwin's theory "evolution", and people who accept it "evolutionists"? Wouldn't this be clearer and simpler?
Now you may disagree with my saying Darwinism does not allow for directed evolution. So here’s an exercise — rather than argue with us, go to a site that explicitly defends Darwinism and make the case that all this couldn’t have come about without direction. Then let us know what kind of response you get.
Been there, done that, lots of times. Only atheists object to the concept directed evolution. Most Christians and other theists in my experience accept it. Cheers C.CLAVDIVS
November 13, 2009
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CLAVDIVS --Just curious, but what do you think ID is? . . .Since before I ever heard of ID I was of the opinion that one plausible explanation for such features was a pre-existing mind. The “core” of ID thinking seems to me to agree with this. Then I think you misunderstand ID since it does not address a pre-existing mind. Nor does it address variation, selection or common ancestry. It simply says that design has unique traits and that these traits are found in life. Now it could turn out that design doesn't have the unique traits ID says it has such as complex specified information or irreducible complexity. Or maybe it might turn out that life doesn't have the traits of design. Regardless, ID as a science addresses neither descent with modification nor God. Where ID is incompatible with Darwinism (not evolution) is over Darwinism's claim that everything could have come about without design (or planning or direction or however you wish to phrase it.) Now you may disagree with my saying Darwinism does not allow for directed evolution. So here's an exercise -- rather than argue with us, go to a site that explicitly defends Darwinism and make the case that all this couldn't have come about without direction. Then let us know what kind of response you get.tribune7
November 12, 2009
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WOW Allen McNeill, a professor of the evolutionary propaganda ministry, addresses my post, lowly me a nobody,,, Dang I'm honored but unimpressed as to his lack of substance. (which I have observed is primary deficit of his as far as evidence) He states: So, bornagain77 disagrees with both Dr. Behe and Dr. Dembski as to the reality of evolution (at least that part of evolution defined as common descent with modification), and furthermore uses standard creationist arguments in support of his/her denial of the position taken by Dr. Behe and Dr. Dembski. And Dr. Mcneill, Since you are in agreement with the evidence I cite from Dr. Behe's book "The Edge Of Evolution", Does that mean that you also agree with the conclusion of Dr. Behe that intelligence is required? Or are you going to forget, for obvious propaganda purposes, that that is the primary conclusion of his book. You obviously want to falsely convey the impression that Dr. Behe and Dr. Dembski are somehow "OK with purely materialistic processes generating us?" So I ask you point blank Allen McNeil, Do you accept Dr. Behe's and Dr. Dembski's primary conclusion that intelligence is required to explain the complexity we find in life?" A simple Yes or No answer will suffice as to expose your true motives.bornagain77
November 12, 2009
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tribune7 Thanks for the response.
CLAVDIVS –I would say that claiming life — or any other natural thing — developed solely via undirected means should be called atheism or materialism, not Darwinism. Darwinism surely refers to the theory of Charles Darwin.
Darwin was an atheist and materialist and held that life developed via undirected means. In fact a recent thread is dedicated to the subject.
*sigh* And the leading proponents of ID are Christian. Does that make ID a Christian, religious enterprise? Of course not. Many theists, including Christians, accept and acknowledge the fact that the mechanisms Darwin described actually occur in nature, so clearly "Darwin's theory" is not a synonym for "atheism" -- unless you stretch the term "Darwin's theory" to encompass the personal philosophical preferences of its proponent. We don't do this for ID. We don't do this for any scientific theory I am aware of.
If you believe that the development of life was directed whether via special creation or evolution from a common ancestor you would support ID.
So you say. bornagain77 and the OP say otherwise. For myself, I could not with honesty agree that the Darwinian mechanisms are "laughable" or not based on any evidence. Yet this is a viewpoint pressed by many proponents of ID (including on this very thread). I believe ID is damaging its own cause with this sort of confusion.
Just curious, but what do you think ID is?
Since about 1990, I have been interested in the subjects of philosophy of mind, consciousness, and self-organising complexity -- features of biology that are not explained by purely material processes. Since before I ever heard of ID I was of the opinion that one plausible explanation for such features was a pre-existing mind. The "core" of ID thinking seems to me to agree with this.
Is ID pro-modern science, or anti?
It’s pro. How about Darwinism?
If by "Darwinism" you mean "atheism" I would say it is anti-science. If by "Darwinism" you mean the mechanisms of variation and selection, and the concept of common ancestry, I would say it is very properly part of science. If ID opposes the idea that variation, selection and common ancestry are real features of the world, then ID is anti-science, in my view, because these concepts are well-established in science. Regards C.CLAVDIVS
November 12, 2009
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Since you are so close to solving this huge problem Dave,,, could you also give us the just so story, oh I mean explanation, for where the information for body plans is coming from: This inability of body plans to be reduced directly to the DNA code is clearly shown by Cortical Inheritance. Cortical Inheritance: The Crushing Critique Against Genetic Reductionism - Arthur Jones - video Part 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JzQ8ingdNY Part 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1bAX93zQ5o This inability for the DNA code to account for body plans is also clearly shown by extensive mutation studies to the DNA of different organisms which show "exceedingly rare" major morphological effects from mutations to the DNA code. Hopeful monsters,' transposons, and the Metazoan radiation: Excerpt: Viable mutations with major morphological or physiological effects are exceedingly rare and usually infertile; the chance of two identical rare mutant individuals arising in sufficient propinquity to produce offspring seems too small to consider as a significant evolutionary event. These problems of viable "hopeful monsters" render these explanations untenable. Paleobiologists Douglas Erwin and James Valentine This includes the highly touted four-winged fruit fly mutations. ...Advantageous anatomical mutations are never observed. The four-winged fruit fly is a case in point: The second set of wings lacks flight muscles, so the useless appendages interfere with flying and mating, and the mutant fly cannot survive long outside the laboratory. Similar mutations in other genes also produce various anatomical deformations, but they are harmful, too. In 1963, Harvard evolutionary biologist Ernst Mayr wrote that the resulting mutants “are such evident freaks that these monsters can be designated only as ‘hopeless.’ They are so utterly unbalanced that they would not have the slightest chance of escaping elimination through natural selection." - Jonathan Wells http://www.evolutionnews.org/2008/08/inherit_the_spin_the_ncse_answ.html#footnote19 Darwin's Theory - Fruit Flies and Morphology - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZJTIwRY0bs If that wasn't enough, the Human Genome Project really put the last nail in the coffin for "Genetic Reductionism": DNA: The Alphabet of Life - David Klinghoffer Excerpt: But all this is trivial compared to the largely unheralded insight gained from the Human Genome Project, completed in 2003. The insight is disturbing. It is that while DNA codes for the cell's building blocks, the information needed to build the rest of the creature is seemingly, in large measure, absent. ,,,The physically encoded information to form that mouse, as opposed to that fly, isn't there. Instead, "It is as if the 'idea' of the fly (or any other organism) must somehow permeate the genome that gives rise to it." http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009/07/dna_the_alphabet_of_life.html Thanks Dave for your time of taking care of these, what I am sure are to you, mere trivialities, that perplexes most of the rest of us mere mortals.bornagain77
November 12, 2009
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CLAVDIVS: In keeping with the topic of this thread - Getting Over Our Love Of Darwin I give you this song: Nazareth - Love Hurts http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2BjJbKQkgc WOW Dave, chemistry (specific stereochemical affinity) explains information,,,I guess I can drop a note to Stephen Meyer and have him make a full public apology for deceiving the public with Signature In The Cell since you have it all figured out? Then again methinks you may have a few kinks in your postulation. the DNA code is not even reducible to the laws of physics or chemistry: Life’s Irreducible Structure Excerpt: “Mechanisms, whether man-made or morphological, are boundary conditions harnessing the laws of inanimate nature, being themselves irreducible to those laws. The pattern of organic bases in DNA which functions as a genetic code is a boundary condition irreducible to physics and chemistry." Michael Polanyi - Hungarian polymath - 1968 - Science (Vol. 160. no. 3834, pp. 1308 – 1312) “an attempt to explain the formation of the genetic code from the chemical components of DNA… is comparable to the assumption that the text of a book originates from the paper molecules on which the sentences appear, and not from any external source of information.” Dr. Wilder-Smith i.e. There are no physical or chemical forces between the nucleotides along the linear axis of DNA (where the information is) that causes the sequence of nucleotides to exist as they do. In fact as far as the laws of the universe are concerned DNA doesn’t even have to exist at all. Stephen Meyer is interviewed about the "information problem" in DNA, Signature in the Cell - video http://downloads.cbn.com/cbnnewsplayer/cbnplayer.swf?aid=8497 Stephen C. Meyer - Signature In The Cell: "DNA functions like a software program," "We know from experience that software comes from programmers. Information--whether inscribed in hieroglyphics, written in a book or encoded in a radio signal--always arises from an intelligent source. So the discovery of digital code in DNA provides evidence that the information in DNA also had an intelligent source." http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009/07/leading_advocate_of_intelligen.html Higher Levels Of Information In Life - Stephen Meyer - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HavmzWVt8IUbornagain77
November 12, 2009
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bornagain77
But of course CLAVDIVS, no significant evolutionary change occurring over 250 million years supports evolution. How could I have been so blind to the evidence.
Since you have resorted to substanceless sarcasm, I suppose that means you don't wish to discuss this any more. Why don't you just say so, instead of quoting scripture for rhetorical effect; don't you see that scripture could apply to you and me both? We are both fallible humans. Thanks C.CLAVDIVS
November 12, 2009
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born,
Dave, I understand the issue exactly, you are trying to make up a “just so” story/excuse as for why we do not see evolution happening in bacteria,,, yet you will turn right around, in spite of this crushing evidence for stasis
Born, the stasis in the case of bacteria case may have a very mundane explanation, in which case your pet idea falls flat on its face. Stasis seen in other organisms most likely has different explanations. Gould and Elderedge had a few explanations for it (none of them earthshakingly different from ideas that Mayr and I Michael Lerner proposed, all nicely compatible with evolutionary threory and none of those support your favorite hunch either. Keep trying, though. As for Abel and Trevior, you make the uncritical assumption that their "null hypothesis" is a valid one to present. I've been slogging through their paper, and frankly, find themselves making grand prounouncements as fact when I know them to be false. For example, on page 260, they state:
Physicality cannot compute or make arbitrary symbol selections according to arbitrarily written rules
That is nonsense. Michael Yarus's work with certain amino acids and their specific stereochemical affinity for transfer RNAs whose binding sequences contain the codons "assigned" by the genetic code. That is, the arbitrary symbol (codon) is associated with the amino acid purely by chemical rules. Abel and Trevors's paper is riddled with those kinds of ill-informed statements. Here's another similar one on page 264:
In symbolic dynamics and genetic cybernetic programming, we assign an arbitrary symbol to represent discrete each discrete physicodynamic state. But inanimate nature cannot represent anything using symbols. Yarus's work completely falsifies this statement, which doesn't bode well for the rest of their argument.
Dave Wisker
November 12, 2009
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Dave, I understand the issue exactly, you are trying to make up a "just so" story/excuse as for why we do not see evolution happening in bacteria,,, yet you will turn right around, in spite of this crushing evidence for stasis, which is positive evidence for ID by the way, and say oh yeah bacteria can turn into Redwood trees, daffodils fish and humans. It is lame to its core for you to do this! For you to try to then turn around and say that, just because I don't but into lame excuse, I don't know what is "really going on" is pathetic. Why don't you just cite the falsification for information generation I requested instead of playing word games of imagination? Why don't you address this issue Dave? The Capabilities of Chaos and Complexity David L. Abel
To stem the growing swell of Intelligent Design intrusions, it is imperative that we provide stand-alone natural process evidence of non trivial self-organization at the edge of chaos. We must demonstrate on sound scientific grounds the formal capabilities of naturally-occurring physicodynamic complexity. Evolutionary algorithms, for example, must be stripped of all artificial selection and the purposeful steering of iterations toward desired products. The latter intrusions into natural process clearly violate sound evolution theory [172, 173]. http://www.mdpi.com/1422-0067/10/1/247/pdf
bornagain77
November 12, 2009
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---faded glory: "One man’s random event is another man’s Act of God. ---faded glory: "If I win the lottery, was that purely the result of a random process? Or was it the result of God willing me to win as the result of a random process? Does God have anything to do with people winning the lottery or not? Does God have anything to do with people surviving tsunamis? Surviving battles? Healing from from cancer?" ----"It merely depends on one’s presuppositions how to interpret such events, not on the actual data." The issue is not about how we perceive randomness, but whether or not randomness has been constrained to know where it is going and if, through "prior intent," the creator designed it that way. 1. Darwinism holds that [a] there was no prior intent and therefore [b] natural laws and randomness launched evolution on an unpredictable journey to an unknown end, which, by definition, could not have had man in mind. 2. Christianity holds that [a] God intended to create man, and did, therefore, have a specific end in mind. Front loaded evolution, which knows where it is going, could pull it off; Darwinian evolution, which doesn't know where it is going, could not. Christian Darwinists want to have it both ways, but there is no logical way to do it. If God, through prior intent, created life by means of front loaded macro evolution, that rules out Darwinism, which rules out both front loading and prior intent Thus, Christian Darwinists, who posit both prior intent and no prior intent, contradict themselves. To say, then, as they do, that God played a role by not playing a role, is to lapse into irrationality.StephenB
November 12, 2009
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born,
So Dave, though your point is highly debatable and in fact Vreeland successfully defended the validity of the 250 million year old time frame, Why do you not accept the results of the amber sealed bacteria spores? Is no evidence ever good enough for you?
Born, verification of the ancient age of the bacterial samples isn't the issue. The issue is millons of years of erosion steadily injecting those sequences into surface populations. You must control for contamination of modern populations by ancient genes in bacterial spores released due to the steady erosion of those ancient salt deposits. If you don't-- and it's clear you don't even seem to comprehend why that is a problem, given your irrelevant fixation on the ancient bacterial samples-- the results from comparing ancient sequences with "modern' sequences can be very misleading.Dave Wisker
November 12, 2009
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Dave, instead of feeding us blatant excuses time after time as to why we never see change in the lab (and only see it in Darwinists Imagination), why don't you just end the debate once and for all by falsifying Abel's Null Hypothesis for Information Generation: The Capabilities of Chaos and Complexity: David L. Abel - Null Hypothesis For Information Generation - 2009 To focus the scientific community’s attention on its own tendencies toward overzealous metaphysical imagination bordering on “wish-fulfillment,” we propose the following readily falsifiable null hypothesis, and invite rigorous experimental attempts to falsify it: "Physicodynamics cannot spontaneously traverse The Cybernetic Cut: physicodynamics alone cannot organize itself into formally functional systems requiring algorithmic optimization, computational halting, and circuit integration." A single exception of non trivial, unaided spontaneous optimization of formal function by truly natural process would falsify this null hypothesis. http://www.mdpi.com/1422-0067/10/1/247/pdf http://mdpi.com/1422-0067/10/1/247/ag Do that and I will buy you a beer!!!bornagain77
November 12, 2009
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So Dave, though your point is highly debatable and in fact Vreeland successfully defended the validity of the 250 million year old time frame, Why do you not accept the results of the amber sealed bacteria spores? Is no evidence ever good enough for you? Will you just forever cling to Darwinian just so stories? WHY? What has Darwin ever done for you or promised you?bornagain77
November 12, 2009
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Hi jitsak, What bornagain fails to realize is, ancient bacterial spores are not found only in underground salt deposits. Many ancient salt deposits have been exposed (and any bacterial spores there released) for millions of years via erosion. Such steady injections of ancient bacterial gene sequences into extant populations will reduce the differences between them that would otherwise have arisen due to isolation and time.Dave Wisker
November 12, 2009
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The phrase "unequivocal differences" sounds like it is more than it is. Unequivocal is undeniable. Even minor differences can be totally unequivocal. This is another example of being strictly honest while trying to deceive. (not jitsak, but vreeland, the study's author).Collin
November 12, 2009
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jitsak, and if you kept up, you would understand the differences were not nearly great enough to cover the "genetic drift" predicted by evolution!!! Yet the MINOR differences would fall within the deterioration predicted by Genetic Entropy, and in fact the minor differences do fall within genetic entropy when tested for fitness as illustrated by my letter from Dr. Cano,,, this is all old news jitsak. In fact I believe Dr. John Sanford is working on providing test for ancient salt spores scince Vreeland appears to be a hard-core Darwinist who refused my request for the results of any fitness tests he may have performed.bornagain77
November 12, 2009
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bornagain77:
Some bacterium spores, in salt crystals, dating back as far as 250 million years have been revived, had their DNA sequenced, and compared to their offspring of today (Vreeland RH, 2000 Nature). To the disbelieving shock of many scientists, both ancient and modern bacteria were found to have the almost same exact DNA sequence.
First of all, we're talking about the sequencing of a single highly conserved gene here: 16S rRNA. Second, from a more recent study by the same group (Vreeland et al. 2006, Extremophiles 10, 71-78):
In the months since their initial publication, the data and claims about Permian microbes (Vreeland et al.2000) have been intensely questioned and scrutinized as has been described above. The data presented here show unequivocal differences between four Permian strains and microbes isolated from present day environments.
My bold. You gotta keep up with the scientific literature, bornagain!jitsak
November 12, 2009
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Allen_MacNeill To answer your question about whether or not evolution is incomplete or wrong, in Dempski's mind: I think that Dempski would tell you that the 3 principles of 1. random mutation to beneficial traits 2 Natural Selection and 3 common descent, are not laughable ideas, merely incomplete. But it is laughable to say that the bacterial flagellum is a result of these three principles or that they can account for the information content of DNA.Collin
November 12, 2009
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CLAVDIVS --I would say that claiming life — or any other natural thing — developed solely via undirected means should be called atheism or materialism, not Darwinism. Darwinism surely refers to the theory of Charles Darwin. Darwin was an atheist and materialist and held that life developed via undirected means. In fact a recent thread is dedicated to the subject. so an undecided party (about whether to support ID, like me) can’t tell what it is, If you believe that the development of life was directed whether via special creation or evolution from a common ancestor you would support ID. Just curious, but what do you think ID is? Is ID pro-modern science, or anti? It's pro. How about Darwinism? :-)tribune7
November 12, 2009
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