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Getting Over Our Love for Darwin

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Getting Over Our Love for Darwin
By William A. Dembski
Posted Tuesday, November 03, 2009

http://www.texanonline.net/default.asp?action=article&aid=6474&issue

Charles Darwin published his “Origin of Species” in 1859. There he presented the classic formulation of his theory of evolution. Lady Ashley, reacting to the theory at the time, remarked, “Let’s hope that it’s not true; but if it is true, let’s hope that it doesn’t become widely known.” Lady Ashley’s second hope has failed: Darwin’s theory is everywhere and has now become textbook orthodoxy. This year, universities around the globe are celebrating the 150th anniversary of Darwin’s “Origin of Species” as well as the 200th anniversary of his birth.

But what about Lady Ashley’s hope that Darwin’s theory is false? Darwin presented a bleak picture of ourselves: we are mere modified apes; we are the “winners” in a brutal competitive evolutionary process, most of whose players are “losers,” wiped off the evolutionary scene before they could leave a legacy; the traditional Christian view that we are made in God’s image is simply a story we tell to convince ourselves that we’re special. 

Intelligent design supporters like me view Darwin’s theory as untrue and even as laughable: The theory purports to give a materialistic account of life’s development once life is already here, but it has a gaping hole at the start since matter gives no evidence of being able to organize itself from non-life into life. The fossil record, especially the sudden emergence of most animal body plans in the Cambrian explosion, sharply violates Darwinian expectations about the historical pattern of evolutionary change. The nano-engineering found in the DNA, RNA, and proteins of the cell far exceeds human engineering and remains completely unexplained in Darwinian terms.

Darwin lovers are quick to reject such complaints.  After all, as novelist Barbara Kingsolver declares, Darwin’s idea of natural selection is “the greatest, simplest, most elegant logical construct ever to dawn across our curiosity about the workings of natural life. It is inarguable, and it explains everything.” Kingsolver is no fan of Christianity. Yet many Darwin lovers are Christian. Francis Collins, who directs the National Institutes of Health, is a Christian Darwinist. Leaving aside a healthy skepticism that regards every scientific theory as refutable in light of new evidence, Collins exempts Darwinian evolution from such skepticism: “evolution, as a mechanism, can be and must be true.”

Any theory that explains everything and that can and must be true is either the greatest thing since sliced bread or the greatest swindle ever foisted on gullible intellectuals. The intelligent design community takes the latter view, siding here with Malcolm Muggeridge, who wrote: “I myself am convinced that the theory of evolution, especially the extent to which it’s been applied, will be one of the great jokes in the history books in the future. Posterity will marvel that so very flimsy and dubious an hypothesis could be accepted with the incredible credulity that it has.”

Still, it’s easy to understand why so flimsily a supported theory garners such vast support. It provides the creation story for an atheistic worldview. If atheism is true, then something like Darwinian evolution must follow. Hence, any attack on Darwin becomes an attack on the atheistic secularism that pervades our culture. Nonetheless, even though atheism implies Darwinism, the reverse is not true: Darwinism does not imply atheism. Indeed, Christian theists who embrace Darwin abound.

The wedding between Darwinism and Christianity, however, is an uneasy one. To be sure, plenty of marriages are uneasy, and uneasy marriages are often endured because divorce can entail more difficulties than endurance. Thus, when I got involved with the evolution controversy 20 years ago, I naively thought that any Christian, given sufficient evidence against Darwinism, would immediately jump ship. Darwinian evolution, according to Cornell historian of biology Will Provine, is “the greatest engine of atheism ever invented.” Why should Christians stick with such an engine when it’s no longer needed?

Little did I realize how infatuated many Christians are with Darwin. Having convinced themselves that design is an outdated religious dogma, they embraced Darwinism as a form of enlightenment. And having accommodated their faith to Darwin, they became loath to reexamine whether Darwinism is true at all. Unlike Lady Ashley, Christian Darwinists hope that Darwinism is true. But is it really? In this year of Darwinian bacchanalias, let us soberly reassess whether Darwin’s theory is indeed true. And if the evidence goes against it, as the intelligent design community is successfully demonstrating, then let’s be done with it. In that case, reconciling Christianity with Darwinism becomes a vain exercise, solving a problem that no longer exists.
 
­William A. Dembski is research professor in philosophy at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary and is the author of prominent books in the field of intelligent design, including The Design of Life: Discovering Signs of Intelligence in Biological Systems, written with biologist Jonathan Wells.

Comments
Allen_Macneill,
As for the “miraculous” origin of humans from “primate” stock, it seems quite “miraculous” to me that the process of natural selection has produced animals that are so unlike each other in so many ways. Which is the greater miracle: to “poof” humans into existence in direct violation of what we observe to be the laws of nature and natural processes or to use those very same processes to create “the paragon of animals” out of a primate ancestor that would be somewhat difficult to distinguish from a modern bonobo?
No comparison can be made when talking about God's miracles. There is no direct violation of the "laws of nature" in your "poof" mental image except one that you've invented. If you do not understand why the laws of nature are as they are, then you cannot say why they couldn't be otherwise, which means that you've only witnessed some their effects by repetition, but that's as far as it goes. Whether there is an ability to control the laws strictly in the purview of God, you cannot say. You're question is a false dilemma.Clive Hayden
November 11, 2009
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As for the "miraculous" origin of humans from "primate" stock, it seems quite "miraculous" to me that the process of natural selection has produced animals that are so unlike each other in so many ways. Which is the greater miracle: to "poof" humans into existence in direct violation of what we observe to be the laws of nature and natural processes or to use those very same processes to create "the paragon of animals" out of a primate ancestor that would be somewhat difficult to distinguish from a modern bonobo?Allen_MacNeill
November 11, 2009
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Finally, it seems somewhat paradoxical to me that Dr. Dembski, who has asserted on multiple occasions (as have many commentators at the website) that ID is not incompatible with the theory of evolution, but rather only with the idea that evolution is unguided, should post an essay in which the thrust of his argument is that Darwin's theory of evolution is wrong. I was under the impression that IDers assert that evolution has happened, but that some intelligent entity or force (identity unspecified) has directly intervened in evolution to bring about the structure and function of life on Earth. This is very different from asserting that Darwin was wrong and that life on Earth has not evolved. As I have pointed out on numerous occasions, my discussions with ID supporters (including my good friend, Hannah Maxson) has led me to the conclusion that the most likely venue for the intervention of an intelligent guiding agent/force in the process of biological evolution is in the production of the variations upon which Darwinian natural selection operates. This was Asa Gray's response to Darwin's theory in his favorable review of Darwin's Origin of Species, a response which Darwin though of so highly that he financed the publication of a pamphlet promoting Gray's views. So, which is it: is Darwin's theory of evolution wrong — has evolution not occurred, or is Darwin's theory of evolution incomplete — has evolution occurred via the production of variations that have "guided" the pattern of macroevolution?Allen_MacNeill
November 11, 2009
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Furthermore, it seems to me that to assert that the idea that God must necessarily directly intervene in natural processes implies that God (whom a theist asserts is necessarily the creator of all such processes) must somehow be incapable of creating natural processes that cannot operate without His continuous intervention (i.e. "you can't get here from there"). One might argue that He would create an imperfect natural universe (with necessarily imperfect natural laws) so that He would necessarily have to directly intervene in nature, and by so doing necessarily reveal His existence. But this seems to me to contradict several foundational components of the Abrahamic traditions, including (but not necessarily limited to) the doctrine of free will. If God must intervene in the operation of nature (because He is necessarily incapable of creating a natural universe which can operate without His direct intervention), then God's own free will is necessarily suspect. And, if we cannot believe in His existence without direct proof based on His direct intervention in nature, does that not necessarily limit our free will? Let me give you an analogy: My friend and mentor, Will Provine, often says that he would immediate become a devout theist of God would simply part the waters of Cayuga Lake so that he could walk straight across the lake bottom to Cayuga Medical Center instead of having to schlep all the way around. My response to this is that, were God to do something like this, it would completely eliminate all possibility of free will, as such incontrovertible evidence of God's existence would no longer allow one to freely chose to believe in His existence (unless, of course, one were deluded or insane). To me, belief in the existence of God must necessarily be the result of an act of free will, rather than a necessary conclusion based on observation of the operation of nature. Indeed, I agree with both Darwin and Huxley in asserting that if one grounds one's belief in the existence of God in the operation of nature, one is forced to agree with the proposition that a benevolent and compassionate God would (of His own free will) create such things as parasitoids and Ewings sarcoma:
"I own that I cannot see as plainly as others do, and as I should wish to do, evidence of design and beneficence on all sides of us. There seems to me too much misery in the world. I cannot persuade myself that a beneficent and omnipotent God would have designedly created the Ichneumonidae with the express intention of their feeding within the living bodies of Caterpillars, or that a cat should play with mice." - Charles Darwin; letter to Asa Gray, dated 22 May 1860 [http://www.darwinproject.ac.uk/darwinletters/calendar/entry-2814.html] "The struggle for existence, which has done such admirable work in cosmic nature, must, it appears, be equally beneficent in the ethical sphere. Yet if that which I have insisted upon is true; if the cosmic process has no sort of relation to moral ends; if the imitation of it by man is inconsistent with the first principles of ethics; what becomes of this surprising theory? Let us understand, once for all, that the ethical progress of society depends, not on imitating the cosmic process, still less in running away from it, but in combating it." - Thomas Henry Huxley (1893) Evolution and Ethics [http://aleph0.clarku.edu/huxley/CE9/E-E.html]
Allen_MacNeill
November 11, 2009
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Dr. Dembski has gone on record repeatedly as asserting that the design that he and other ID supporters infer in nature is not necessarily the result of divine activity. Indeed, he has asserted (and others have agreed) that the question of design in nature is a completely separate question from the existence (or non-existence) of God. To be specific, if there is design in nature, then that proposition can be answered through the use of standard scientific methods alone, without resort to the "God hypothesis". Indeed, since the standard methods of science preclude any resort to supernatural causation, this is the only way the existence (or non-existence) of design in nature can be verified or falsified. I completely agree, and also point out that most of the comments in this thread seem to be in the opposite direction: that the proposition that there is indeed design in nature necessarily both requires the intervention of God in nature, and somehow proves the existence of God. Neither of these propositions necessarily follows from the design proposition listed at the end of the previous paragraph, and are in fact completely separate inferences, based on completely separate (and logically incommensurate) evidence. As for Romans 1:20, what part of that verse either requires or denies the direct intervention of God in natural processes?Allen_MacNeill
November 11, 2009
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Cabal states: we are all of the same miraculous stock. I find ‘mere modified apes’ rather demeaning words to use about those fabulous relatives of ours. ,Cabal, if you want to stay logically consistent, don't use the word miraculous in describing evolution,, Because clearly, miraculous, is what evolution tries to explain away by sole avenue of material processes.bornagain77
November 11, 2009
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From 2001:
First off, let's be clear that design can accommodate all the results of Darwinism. Intelligent design does not repudiate the Darwinian mechanism. It merely assigns it a lower status than Darwinism does. The Darwinian mechanism does operate in nature and insofar as it does, design can live with its deliverances.
But now:
Intelligent design supporters like me view Darwin’s theory as untrue and even as laughable.
I have been a supporter of many ID-friendly concepts for a long time (since before I heard the term ID). But this sort of (apparent) contradiction just confuses me. So, to be clear, does ID accept or reject the Darwinian mechanism as something that truly operates in nature? I'm very curious. Thanks C.CLAVDIVS
November 11, 2009
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But what about Lady Ashley’s hope that Darwin’s theory is false? Darwin presented a bleak picture of ourselves: we are mere modified apes; we are the “winners” in a brutal competitive evolutionary process, most of whose players are “losers,” wiped off the evolutionary scene before they could leave a legacy; the traditional Christian view that we are made in God’s image is simply a story we tell to convince ourselves that we’re special.
A wish I could write the comprehensive essay the subject deserves but I can’t. I fail to see the ‘bleak picture’. When I see us I see a species related to all life on this planet, we are all of the same miraculous stock. I find ‘mere modified apes’ rather demeaning words to use about those fabulous relatives of ours. All creatures on this planet come from the same source, share the same origins. What right do we have to assign less dignity to other animals than ourselves? How is it possible to look at animals and not see the kinship? Don’t animals express love and care for their young ones? Don’t animals live straight, decent lives; just the way life should be lived? Perversion is a human invention. Stories about dogs or dolphins saving human lives are many, but also other animals are known to have shown respect for life. Judging by the way we live, man is the lowest animal on the planet. I hope I don’t have to remind anyone about the history of man on this planet; he is in the news every day and it is a very sad story. That is man’s predicament, he took it upon himself to define good and evil according to his own ideas in contrast with the law of life written in the heart of all animals – man included. Animals live their lives the only way life can and shall be lived, with no moral issues about how>/I> they should live. Man is a special case, no doubt about that. But he is first and foremost an animal. We cannot understand man if we ignore that. What sets us apart are of course our unique brains, that’s all. Our brains have by and by made us what we are. Our brains have made it possible for us to stray from a natural way of living. And we have used it to create morals, the concept of good and bad, and applying those terms to life itself. The duality good/bad is not seen in nature! We are not “the “winners” in a brutal competitive evolutionary process”, I find that idea quite alien to my way of thinking. Nor are “most of whose players are “losers,” wiped off the evolutionary scene before they could leave a legacy” words that I find meaningful at all. Such thinking is alien to me. Confusing evolution – the principle that all living things descend from other living things, with the simple fact that no individual of any species have any guarantee that it/he/she will leave descendants. That’s a game of chance, not about being a ‘loser’ or not. Species are not entities, they have no identity, they are only manmade concepts convenient for classification according to how we view life. Some families propagate over long periods of time, others don’t. So what? Why look at life from a species perspective? Life is an individual affair! We are not actors on an “evolutionary scene.” I guess one must have a grudge against the concept of evolution to think in those terms. Evolution is just a word, a term used to describe a certain philosophical view of the history of life on this planet! I am not an actor, contestant or whatever in a game of evolution. All I am doing, all I can do is to live my own personal life, that’s all. But at the same time I, like everybody else, is a link in the game of evolution. I can’t help it; I am afraid I disagree wholeheartedly with the writer.Cabal
November 11, 2009
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People have believed in God for a host of reasons across time. Some would have said you need nothing more than an act of grace or the presence of rain in order to detect Him. It’s obviously reasonable to think that the higher order of proof we have today shares less of the history in belief. People have disbelieved in God for lots of reasons as well. I would be more apt to think this failure has more to do with the actions of believers than with God himself. I personally think that Theistic Evolutionists have lost their marbles, and I’ll argue the empirical facts with them as hard as anyone, but I think it’s inappropriate to attack their faith. I can’t imagine myself calling out a Christian; saying he or she is not the right kind of believer. I refuse.Upright BiPed
November 10, 2009
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By contrast, Christian Darwinists insist that we cannot draw that conclusion.
This is just not true. At most, they claim that we cannot draw this conclusion from biology.Mung
November 10, 2009
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but Christianity if you study what Christ said in scripture- is a very NARROW position- that is, it is not a liberal faith at all. And that is not my personal view any more than it is my personal view that Israel is in the middle east. It is pretty evident.
But Jesus never said that Christianity is a very narrow position. I greatly doubt that Jesus ever used the term "Christianity' at all.
Christianity if you study what Christ said in scripture- is a very NARROW position- that is, it is not a liberal faith at all.
I object. Christianity is a very liberal faith. Whosoever will, may come.
And that is not my personal view any more than it is my personal view that Israel is in the middle east. It is pretty evident.
But it is your personal view, as you have made quite apparent through your statements in this thread. To claim otherwise is to be dishonest. Now, you might claim that your personal view is shared by others, but this in no way makes it not your personal view, as you assert. You could convince us that it is not your personal view by denying it, but I am not holding my breath.
And that is not my personal view any more than it is my personal view that
Do you hold the view that "Israel" is in the middle east? If so, how can you deny that this is your personal view? Seriously, I don't blame Bill for not responding to posts such as yours. He probably has any number of more productive ways to spend his time.
Israel is in the middle east. It is pretty evident.
Really? Who, or what, is "Israel"?Mung
November 10, 2009
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The True path is narrow. Christ’s words, not mine.
The words are his (broadly speaking, since that's not what he actually said, if the Gospel account is to be believed). But the application of these words in the current context is entirely yours. Nothing can quite be compared to taking Scripture out of it's original context, placing it in a context foreign to that from which it was taken, and then declaring, "thus says the LORD." This sort of stuff, coming from purported Christians, sickens me, especially when used as ammunition against other Christians."Mung
November 10, 2009
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----William Dembski: "But Christian Darwinists can argue that even though design is not scientifically detectable in the evolutionary process and even though chance plays a dominant role in it, nevertheless God is behind it all. Thus, even though the process appears undesigned, at some level it actually is designed; and even though chance might seem to preclude divine involvement, in fact it allows it (compare Proverbs 16:33)." I think you are being just a little too open-minded here. Romans 1:20 emphasizes the point that we can discern the existence of God by observing his handiwork. So much so, that those who would deny his existence are without excuse.” Psalm 19 makes the same point, though in a less demanding way. By contrast, Christian Darwinists insist that we cannot draw that conclusion. They are not simply saying that design is scientifically undetectable; they are saying that it cannot be perceived by the senses at all, and, more still, that any such apprehension is an illusion. According to them, we can only “believe” that God designed the world, and, even then, only after they have told us so. In other words, we must believe that, if God revealed himself in nature, it could only have been in a language that can be comprehended by naturalistic scientists, and that we should, therefore, believe these scientists when they tell us that design is “inherent in the evolutionary process.” But the whole point of Romans 1:20 is that no faith is required, not in the TEs—not even in God —that scoffers and non-believers are without excuse because they are literally denying the testimony of their own senses. How else can one interpret the passage, “The fool has said in his heart that there is no God.” Surely, that means that God revealed himself in nature in the language that we can all understand. What kind of a revelation would it be if it needed TE for a middle man?StephenB
November 10, 2009
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Frost:
Scro, being a “Christian” is much more than just thinking there migth be a God.
Of course, but look at your claim:
In fact one could argue that Darwinism is nothing but a scientific codification of atheism.
Darwinism does not preclude theism. Your statement is incorrect.
Theistic Darwinists believe that God created the heavens and the Earth- heavens and earth that “did not need a creator”...
Many if not most of them do think that the universe needed a creator. NDE is not cosmology, Frost. Bill is correct when he writes:
But Christian Darwinists can argue that even though design is not scientifically detectable in the evolutionary process and even though chance plays a dominant role in it, nevertheless God is behind it all.
That is not an atheistic view.scrofulous
November 10, 2009
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Scro, being a "Christian" is much more than just thinking there migth be a God. And if one doe snot know of God's existence through his creation or design then how does one come ot know of him? Obviously there is no way because even the human mind which thinks of him was either part of his design or was not. And as far as your "holier than thou" accusation- please, that is not an argument. I am basing my objection to this nonsense of theistic Darwinism on facts of scripture because it is not a view that can be based in scripture at all and to be a Christian you need to accept the scripture because that is how Christians of today know of Christ and what being a Christian is all about. Just saying your a Chrsitain does not make you one- and there is no reason why I should have to take people at there word when there is no rationality to back it up. Lets put romans aside and look at the absurdity of the claim of thesitic Darwinism Theistic Darwinists believe that God created the heavens and the Earth- heavens and earth that "did not need a creator", and which have no empirical evidence nor any explanatory requirement of his guidance or designing of it. A world where human beings arose by chance and a brutal survival of the fittest narrative highlighted by some random mutations. Does that sound like a Christian world view to you? No. Theistic Darwinist are basically the same as classical bandwagon football fans. They say the love the team and it's players and they too think that the team will win the Superbowl- but they know nothing about the team and don't care anyways. And as soon as everyone around them stops liking the team they do too. Really they don't even like the team- in fact they hate football- they just use it as a way to better themselves socially and make themselves feel good when it is going well. Now there is a crowed that I think is just confused- ad they break down into two different categories on opposing sides of the line. First there is the side which believes Darwinism to be true but they were raised Christian. They are not Christains. They might feel guilty and still beleive a little because of the ingraining of their upbrinning but they know better that Darwinism does not square with Christainity. I think Collins falls into this category- and Miller to a lesser extent is the same. They sympathize with Christainity but deep down think it is myth. Then there is the other group which is confused which really beleive in Christainity but have been mislead by the schools and everyone around them. They don't really believe in Darwinis. These people are much more likely to be real Christians who might just "say" they believe in Darwinism but if you talk with them for a while in privet you see they do not. They are not the type to be open vehement critics of ID. They don't hate ID- but fail to understand it. These are the silent majority for ID who show up in polls that say most Americans think DE is incomplete without some kind of designer. Now notice I say Theistic Darwinists because Theistic "Evolution" CAN be squared with Christianity. It is perfectly understandable how one could think the tree of life evidence is strong and yet God guided it. That is not Darwinism.Frost122585
November 10, 2009
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Frost122585:
I think it is a sign of their lack of spirituality that they cannot see how manifestly evident intelligent design is in the world.
Frost, That's a bit "holier than thou", don't you think?
In fact one could argue that Darwinism is nothing but a scientific codification of atheism.
That's simply not true. Denying God a role in the diversification of life is not the same as denying his existence. I think Dawkins got it right when he wrote:
An atheist before Darwin could have said, following Hume: "I have no explanation for complex biological design. All I know is that God isn't a good explanation, so we must wait and hope that somebody comes up with a better one." I can't help feeling that such a position, though logically sound, would have left one feeling pretty unsatisfied, and that although atheism might have been logically tenable before Darwin, Darwin made it possible to be an intellectually fulfilled atheist.
While Darwinism doesn't demand atheism, it certainly does remove one of the main obstacles to atheism, as Dawkins points out.scrofulous
November 10, 2009
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I think it is a sign of their lack of spirituality that they cannot see how manifestly evident intelligent design is in the world. And you can say "intelligibility" too if you like- but that gets at the same point. Darwinism says it is not designed. SO I think you can possibly hold the position out of ignorance that ID is not science and still be a Christian- but you cannot hold that Darwinism is true- because Darwin was himself showing that God was not necessary to understand the worlds intelligibility. So it is evident that Darwinism is always atheistic. In fact one could argue that Darwinism is nothing but a scientific codification of atheism. I would say that.Frost122585
November 10, 2009
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But Bill you and I both no this does clash with Romans. And so their position is not rational- and neither is their faith. I think the question then becomes can one have an irrational Christian faith? I say no. The True path is narrow. Christ's words, not mine.Frost122585
November 10, 2009
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Christian Darwinists believe that Darwinian evolution is the process by which God brought about living forms. Such a process gives no evidence of design and thus does, in my view, crash into Romans 1:20. But Christian Darwinists can argue that even though design is not scientifically detectable in the evolutionary process and even though chance plays a dominant role in it, nevertheless God is behind it all. Thus, even though the process appears undesigned, at some level it actually is designed; and even though chance might seem to preclude divine involvement, in fact it allows it (compare Proverbs 16:33).William Dembski
November 10, 2009
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Upright that is fine. But I think if one argues against the notion that the world is obviously the result of something more than chance purposeless material processes then they are not a Christian by definition. And as far as I can tell Collins thinks this is the case. So that is my reasoning to calling him not a True Christian. He might have some Christian sympathies- but Christianity if you study what Christ said in scripture- is a very NARROW position- that is, it is not a liberal faith at all. And that is not my personal view any more than it is my personal view that Israel is in the middle east. It is pretty evident. But I agree that facts are better than inferences- while my inference is almost deductive- without reading his mind there is still the possibility that he is a Christian but is just trying to maintain his political and social status. However in which case I think his faith is weak because to a strong Christian their social status would not matter more (nor should matter more) than sharing the depth their faith- if there is real depth there.Frost122585
November 10, 2009
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Frost, I appreciate your comments. I understand the depth of weirdness of the issues you are talking about. But things like: "People like Francis Collins are not real Christains in Truth" ...are more than a little over the top. Argue against his position with all that you have to argue, but this is not for you to say. (just my $.02)Upright BiPed
November 10, 2009
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and for example People like Francis Collins are not real Christains in Truth. His book the "Language of God" was just a lazy attempt to cash in on the popular ID and apologetics movement. It was like John Wells said in his review of the book- he was baffled because on the won hand it seemed Collins was saying DNA was the language of God- but thoughou tthe book he makes it clear that Neo Darinism is true- and it is people's blind fiath that prevent them from accepting the truth of this evolution. So his only goal was one to cash in- and two perhaps more insidiously to get people interested in ID to come over to his side- which is anti-ID- by writing a book that appears at the onset to be in favor of ID- and ends up being against it. I mean the book is called the "Language of God" but he is saying there is no reason to think it is. I think, to a certain extent that his goal was to confuse and corrupt people innocently interested in ID and related subjects. And yes I have read the book.Frost122585
November 10, 2009
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Bill I want to disagree with you vehemently. You wrote... "Nonetheless, even though atheism implies Darwinism, the reverse is not true: Darwinism does not imply atheism. Indeed, Christian theists who embrace Darwin abound." This is nonsense. For one to accept Darwinism one must accept the non-teleic view of reality- and hence they are not a theist let a lone a true Christian by definition. Now I am aware that you may try to argue that one can be a Christian by faith alone and yet not think that design is evident or scientifically detectable in the world- but here I also disagree. The Bible makes it clear that God's existence is inexorably manifest in his design- and if a sinner like myself can find design irrevocable than so should any self declared Christian. Thus,just saying so are a Christian does not make you so. So Darwinism implies atheism- and all of those people wo claim to be Christin Darinwists are liars. Either they are not Christains but just like to say they are- or maybe they are Christins and pretend to belive in Darinwinism - for the sake of protecting their jobs and so forth. Either way their Christinity is in question. As far atheism implying Darwinism- I am not sure this is true either. While I totally agree that the vast majority of atheists are Darwinists I think one can be an atheist and not a Darwinist. I know such a person who believes in no God whatsoever but thinks there is an intelligent force that organizes material reality. This person sees that Darwinism is hopelessly incomplete and pathetically simple- and does not explain anything- but this same person does not think there exists a benevolent God of any sort because of the evil and "non-ideal" design in the world. This is the God with no identity- or one step less than diesm. and you should know better than to use divorce as an analogical defense of the realtionship between Christainaity and Darwinism. In Luke- ""Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery." Luke 16:18" Christ makes it clear that divorce is adultery under almost any circumstance and so much so that no man should even marry a divorced woman. So while honoring marriage is a tenant of Christianity, honoring Darwinism is not. Honoring scientific consensus is not either. And if a person finds the difficulty to be in "being Christian" because of their "belief in Darwinism"- then they are a Darwinist first and hence not a real Christian at all. Because Christ made it clear that one must fully committed to the narrow path to be of the true faith and to be saved.Frost122585
November 10, 2009
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Malcolm Muggeridge? Wow. He was the person who rescued me from the breaking pack ice, so to speak, nearly four decades ago. I remember interrupting a CBC screening in an apartment where he was staying, and being told to SHUT UP. (I had arrived late, due to problems sorting laundry, and I just wanted people to know I was there.) But Muggeridge wasn't the one who told me to shut up. Quite the opposite. At the time, we both had other things on our mind. He was on his way to becoming a Catholic, as I did later. We were mainly interested in the value of human life. I was fronting that cause, along with many courageous doctors, journalists, publishers, printers, etc. who have since paid for the crime with their careers. Americans will soon have this problem, if they don't now. Muggeridge is no longer alive to speak for himself, but I am quite sure he would say, just blow Darwinism out of the water, as the British warships did the Bismarck. After the taping ended, Muggeridge insisted on seeing me, and we got along great. After I got home, I got Hull due to complaints about how I had sorted the laundry. Well, that would have happened even if I had been at a bible study or a beer parlour, right?O'Leary
November 10, 2009
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Mr. Dembski wrote, "[E]ven though atheism implies Darwinism, the reverse is not true: Darwinism does not imply atheism." If I understand him, Dembski’s point was that the process of evolution does not logically entail atheism. I agree, but I don’t think the same can be said of “Darwinism” strictly speaking. Darwinism does imply atheism. Darwinism is usually defined as the blind watchmaker thesis, not merely macro-evolution and/or common descent. While the blind watchmaker thesis does not logically exclude the possibility of God's existence, it definitely implies that God does not exist. After all, the thesis that God exists but is not involved with creation requires us to think of God as sitting idly by, thoroughly surprised to find time, space, and matter popping into existence from nothing. In the words of David Berlinski: "If God did not create the world, then what is His use? … A God too indisposed to do the work of creation is fated to drift into irrelevance, if only because His demand for adoration would be considerably out of line with His record of accomplishment."jasondulle
November 10, 2009
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And if the evidence goes against it, as the intelligent design community is successfully demonstrating, then let’s be done with it. In that case, reconciling Christianity with Darwinism becomes a vain exercise, solving a problem that no longer exists.
Darwinism serves in place of a theodicy for the Darwinist Christians, and Bill has rightly recognised that if Darwnism is false, then the need for a Christian Theodicy re-emerges.Mung
November 10, 2009
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One of the ways Darwinists obscure the real issues is by mis-characterizing Darwinism as the proposition that random variation culled by natural selection produces change in species. This, by itself, is incontestable and has been observed in nature and even in the laboratory. There is a third part to the theory (after random variation and natural selection), which is the sticking point, namely the proposition that novel biological structures, body plans, and processes (such as blood clotting and insect metamorphosis) can be and are the result of many small changes, each increasing the organism's fitness, occurring over long periods of time. It is this claim, contradicted by so much evidence and supported by so little (if any at all), that is the crux of the matter. And it is this that not surprisingly is usually conspicuously absent from Darwinists' descriptions of the Darwinian paradigm.Bruce David
November 10, 2009
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Latest David Berlinski interview with Gordon Liddy is here: http://feeds.radioamerica.org/podcast/GGL/audio/000003_014438.mp3NZer
November 10, 2009
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One reason I believe why Darwinism, a theory with never any credible scientific support to sustain it, has been able to become the dominant paradigm of origins in our universities, is that I believe, much like a "vice" that starts out seemingly innocent and then eventually starts to destroy the life of the person trapped by it, Darwinism was not seen as a threat by our culture in the beginning, but as Weikart has clearly pointed out in "From Darwin to Hitler", the threat was not innocent and has been traceable to the the base of the atrocities of the 20th century. It is time for Christians of America to wake up from their sleep and realize the clear and present danger that unchecked Darwinism presents to our society. Darwinism IS NOT compatible with our traditional Judeo-Christian ethics and is in fact in direct opposition to the highest standards of those Ethics, namely the dignity of human life.
Rejection of Judeo-Christian values Weikart explains how accepting Darwinist dogma shifted society's thinking on human life: "Before Darwinism burst onto the scene in the mid-nineteenth century, the idea of the sanctity of human life was dominant in European thought and law (though, as with all ethical principles, not always followed in practice). Judeo-Christian ethics proscribed the killing of innocent human life, and the Christian churches explicitly forbade murder, infanticide, abortion, and even suicide. "The sanctity of human life became enshrined in classical liberal human rights ideology as 'the right to life,' which according to John Locke and the United States Declaration of Independence, was one of the supreme rights of every individual" (p. 75). Only in the late nineteenth and especially the early twentieth century did significant debate erupt over issues relating to the sanctity of human life, especially infanticide, euthanasia, abortion, and suicide. It was no mere coincidence that these contentious issues emerged at the same time that Darwinism was gaining in influence. Darwinism played an important role in this debate, for it altered many people's conceptions of the importance and value of human life, as well as the significance of death" (ibid.). http://www.gnmagazine.org/issues/gn85/darwin-theory-changed-world.htm
bornagain77
November 10, 2009
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"Posterity will marvel that so very flimsy and dubious an hypothesis could be accepted with the incredible credulity that it has" (Muggeridge). This reminded me of a scene from a BBC Horizon study of science (entitled Science Fiction?) in which a historian imagined a study group, a century or so from now, standing in the ruins of a radio telescope, seeking to explain how people could have gained certain degrees of confidence in the findings of such a device... I started 'The End of Christianity' yesterday, and it certainly is making me think, which is always a good thing.howard
November 10, 2009
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