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Getting Over Our Love for Darwin

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Getting Over Our Love for Darwin
By William A. Dembski
Posted Tuesday, November 03, 2009

http://www.texanonline.net/default.asp?action=article&aid=6474&issue

Charles Darwin published his “Origin of Species” in 1859. There he presented the classic formulation of his theory of evolution. Lady Ashley, reacting to the theory at the time, remarked, “Let’s hope that it’s not true; but if it is true, let’s hope that it doesn’t become widely known.” Lady Ashley’s second hope has failed: Darwin’s theory is everywhere and has now become textbook orthodoxy. This year, universities around the globe are celebrating the 150th anniversary of Darwin’s “Origin of Species” as well as the 200th anniversary of his birth.

But what about Lady Ashley’s hope that Darwin’s theory is false? Darwin presented a bleak picture of ourselves: we are mere modified apes; we are the “winners” in a brutal competitive evolutionary process, most of whose players are “losers,” wiped off the evolutionary scene before they could leave a legacy; the traditional Christian view that we are made in God’s image is simply a story we tell to convince ourselves that we’re special. 

Intelligent design supporters like me view Darwin’s theory as untrue and even as laughable: The theory purports to give a materialistic account of life’s development once life is already here, but it has a gaping hole at the start since matter gives no evidence of being able to organize itself from non-life into life. The fossil record, especially the sudden emergence of most animal body plans in the Cambrian explosion, sharply violates Darwinian expectations about the historical pattern of evolutionary change. The nano-engineering found in the DNA, RNA, and proteins of the cell far exceeds human engineering and remains completely unexplained in Darwinian terms.

Darwin lovers are quick to reject such complaints.  After all, as novelist Barbara Kingsolver declares, Darwin’s idea of natural selection is “the greatest, simplest, most elegant logical construct ever to dawn across our curiosity about the workings of natural life. It is inarguable, and it explains everything.” Kingsolver is no fan of Christianity. Yet many Darwin lovers are Christian. Francis Collins, who directs the National Institutes of Health, is a Christian Darwinist. Leaving aside a healthy skepticism that regards every scientific theory as refutable in light of new evidence, Collins exempts Darwinian evolution from such skepticism: “evolution, as a mechanism, can be and must be true.”

Any theory that explains everything and that can and must be true is either the greatest thing since sliced bread or the greatest swindle ever foisted on gullible intellectuals. The intelligent design community takes the latter view, siding here with Malcolm Muggeridge, who wrote: “I myself am convinced that the theory of evolution, especially the extent to which it’s been applied, will be one of the great jokes in the history books in the future. Posterity will marvel that so very flimsy and dubious an hypothesis could be accepted with the incredible credulity that it has.”

Still, it’s easy to understand why so flimsily a supported theory garners such vast support. It provides the creation story for an atheistic worldview. If atheism is true, then something like Darwinian evolution must follow. Hence, any attack on Darwin becomes an attack on the atheistic secularism that pervades our culture. Nonetheless, even though atheism implies Darwinism, the reverse is not true: Darwinism does not imply atheism. Indeed, Christian theists who embrace Darwin abound.

The wedding between Darwinism and Christianity, however, is an uneasy one. To be sure, plenty of marriages are uneasy, and uneasy marriages are often endured because divorce can entail more difficulties than endurance. Thus, when I got involved with the evolution controversy 20 years ago, I naively thought that any Christian, given sufficient evidence against Darwinism, would immediately jump ship. Darwinian evolution, according to Cornell historian of biology Will Provine, is “the greatest engine of atheism ever invented.” Why should Christians stick with such an engine when it’s no longer needed?

Little did I realize how infatuated many Christians are with Darwin. Having convinced themselves that design is an outdated religious dogma, they embraced Darwinism as a form of enlightenment. And having accommodated their faith to Darwin, they became loath to reexamine whether Darwinism is true at all. Unlike Lady Ashley, Christian Darwinists hope that Darwinism is true. But is it really? In this year of Darwinian bacchanalias, let us soberly reassess whether Darwin’s theory is indeed true. And if the evidence goes against it, as the intelligent design community is successfully demonstrating, then let’s be done with it. In that case, reconciling Christianity with Darwinism becomes a vain exercise, solving a problem that no longer exists.
 
­William A. Dembski is research professor in philosophy at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary and is the author of prominent books in the field of intelligent design, including The Design of Life: Discovering Signs of Intelligence in Biological Systems, written with biologist Jonathan Wells.

Comments
But of course CLAVDIVS, no significant evolutionary change occurring over 250 million years supports evolution. How could I have been so blind to the evidence. Matthew 13-14-15 14In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: "'You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving. 15For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.'bornagain77
November 12, 2009
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bornagain77 I am surprised at the empirical evidence that you cited, because it appears to support evolution rather than refuting it. The bacteria research states that the bacteria had in fact evolved over 250 million years. There was no reason for surprise that the modern bacteria are more specific in their ecological preferences than their ancestors: Darwin explained quite clearly why this should be so in Origin -- it is because evolution is a branching process. You also cite Professor Behe who has clearly stated that he accepts common descent, variation and selection, and does not argue against such in Edge of Evolution. Is is perhaps true that what you're objecting to is not the Darwinian mechanism, but just atheism generally? Thanks and regards C.CLAVDIVS
November 12, 2009
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tribune7
I didn’t write the OP, CLAVDIVS. But then words are sometimes used or taken differently by different people. If you define Darwinism as the claim that genomic changes can be fixed by natural selection, I agree with it and think it indisputable, in fact. If you define Darwinism as the claim that all life descended from a single ancestor solely via natural and undirected means, well, I think that’s silly
I would say that claiming life -- or any other natural thing -- developed solely via undirected means should be called atheism or materialism, not Darwinism. Darwinism surely refers to the theory of Charles Darwin. Also, please note that whilst you accept the fixing effect of natural selection, bornagain77 apparently does not, so an undecided party (about whether to support ID, like me) can't tell what it is, in fact, I would be supporting. Is ID pro-modern science, or anti? Thanks C.CLAVDIVS
November 12, 2009
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StephenB said: It indicates only that God played a role and made it happen in some way. The point is to ask theistic evolutionists to make up their mind about whether God did or did not play a role, rather than to say, as they do, that he played a role by not playing a role. - If I win the lottery, was that purely the result of a random process? Or was it the result of God willing me to win as the result of a random process? Does God have anything to do with people winning the lottery or not? Does God have anything to do with people surviving tsunamis? Surviving battles? Healing from from cancer? One man's random event is another man's Act of God. It merely depends on one's presuppositions how to interpret such events, not on the actual data. fGfaded_Glory
November 12, 2009
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In #54 tribune7 wrote:
"If you define Darwinism as the claim that all life descended from a single ancestor solely via natural and undirected means, well, I think that’s silly."
As an evolutionary biologist I think it's silly, too. As the detailed empirical work of Ford Doolittle and his colleagues has shown, it is extremely likely that the "tree of life" does not have a single root. Indeed, there is increasing evidence that just the opposite may be the case. Life may have originated multiple times, and there is abundant evidence that the history of virtually all phylogenetic lines have been marked by multiple episodes of fusion (i.e. anastomosis) of lines of descent, in addition to splitting (i.e. cladogenesis). Furthermore, evolution is certainly not undirected. If it were, the patterns we observe in the empirical record of fossils and genomes would reflect a purely "random walk" over deep evolutionary time. But the patterns we observe show just the opposite: that the directions of both microevolutionary and macroevolutionary change have been continuously "guided"/modified as the result of a combination of intrinsic "natural" processes (such as the constraints imposed by developmental processes, physical laws, etc.) and extrinsic "natural" processes (such as ecological changes and long-term biogeochemical changes). However, I do agree with the use of the term "natural" here, but would not use it as necessarily meaning either "random" or "unguided". A falling object's path is neither random nor "unguided" (i.e. by the force of gravity), yet it is clearly "natural", is it not?Allen_MacNeill
November 11, 2009
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In comment #50, bornagain77 cites Dr. Behe's The Edge of Evolution in support of the assertion that there is "...no reason to believe in evolution from empirical evidence". Yet Dr. Behe himself has declared on multiple occasions (including in the very book bornagain77 cites in support of his denial of evolution) that he fully accepts the mainstream evolutionary account of descent with common ancestry. And, as I pointed out earlier in this thread, the same is also the case for Dr. Dembski, who has clearly stated that, although he feels a great deal of sympathy for creationists, he (like Dr. Behe) also accepts the empirical evidence for common descent. So, bornagain77 disagrees with both Dr. Behe and Dr. Dembski as to the reality of evolution (at least that part of evolution defined as common descent with modification), and furthermore uses standard creationist arguments in support of his/her denial of the position taken by Dr. Behe and Dr. Dembski. Ergo, bornagain77 is in complete and basic disagreement with both of the principle scientific supporters of ID.Allen_MacNeill
November 11, 2009
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In #46 tribune7 asserted:
"...it is impossible for these mechanism all biodiversity. Some biodiversity, yes. All, no."
So, exactly what aspects of biodiversity are the various mechanisms of micro- and macroevolution unable to produce, and what empirical evidence can you provide for this assertion?Allen_MacNeill
November 11, 2009
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jerry in #40: And someday you will learn how to frame a comment without beginning it with an ad hominem attack. However, you will have to do so without expecting any response from me. I do not attack your credibility nor your person, yet you seem to be unable to address me without doing so. I will therefore not respond to any comment of yours that refers to anything I have posted except the content of my arguments.Allen_MacNeill
November 11, 2009
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I didn't write the OP, CLAVDIVS. But then words are sometimes used or taken differently by different people. If you define Darwinism as the claim that genomic changes can be fixed by natural selection, I agree with it and think it indisputable, in fact. If you define Darwinism as the claim that all life descended from a single ancestor solely via natural and undirected means, well, I think that's silly.tribune7
November 11, 2009
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stephenB in #38: First of all, you may refer to the causitive force in ID as God if that is your preference. It is not mine, and so I will henceforth refer to this hypothetical entity as the IDer. With that said, is it your position that the IDer only plays a role in nature by directly intervening in nature at various historical times and places, but cannot be considered to have done so by establishing and maintaining the laws of nature that a theistic evolutionist asserts are all that is necessary to "get here from there"?Allen_MacNeill
November 11, 2009
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In #35 stephenB wrote:
"Here we go again with another special version of your favorite anti-ID talking point: ID = religion."
Actually, I was trying to make the opposite point: that according to Dr. Dembski and some other commentators here, ID is not necessarily religious, yet most of the comments in this thread (see, for example, all of Frost122585’s comments) appear to me to be making precisely the opposite point. You need to resend the memo that ID does not equal religion to your own troops, stephenB; they apparently haven't gotten the official talking points from headquarters.Allen_MacNeill
November 11, 2009
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Frost122585's argument in comment #33 is what is known as the "No True Scotsman" argument and is entirely fallacious. To be specific, Frost122585 asserts without supporting evidence of any kind that his definition of a "true Christian" is the only valid definition. Why should anyone who is interested in rational debate pay any attention to Frost122585's utterly fallacious and profoundly counterproductive (not to mention divisive) argument?Allen_MacNeill
November 11, 2009
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A few more points to consider: A review of The Edge of Evolution: The Search for the Limits of Darwinism The numbers of Plasmodium and HIV in the last 50 years greatly exceeds the total number of mammals since their supposed evolutionary origin (several hundred million years ago), yet little has been achieved by evolution. This suggests that mammals could have "invented" little in their time frame. Behe: ‘Our experience with HIV gives good reason to think that Darwinism doesn’t do much—even with billions of years and all the cells in that world at its disposal’ (p. 155). http://creation.com/review-michael-behe-edge-of-evolution Dr. Behe states in The Edge of Evolution on page 135: "Generating a single new cellular protein-protein binding site (in other words, generating a truly beneficial mutational event that would actually explain the generation of the complex molecular machinery we see in life) is of the same order of difficulty or worse than the development of chloroquine resistance in the malarial parasite." That order of difficulty is put at 10^20 replications of the malarial parasite by Dr. Behe. This number comes from direct empirical observation. Richard Dawkins’ The Greatest Show on Earth Shies Away from Intelligent Design but Unwittingly Vindicates Michael Behe - Oct. 2009 Excerpt: The rarity of chloroquine resistance is not in question. In fact, Behe’s statistic that it occurs only once in every 10^20 cases was derived from public health statistical data, published by an authority in the Journal of Clinical Investigation. The extreme rareness of chloroquine resistance is not a negotiable data point; it is an observed fact. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009/10/richard_dawkins_the_greatest_s.html An Atheist Interviews Michael Behe About "The Edge Of Evolution" - video http://www.in.com/videos/watchvideo-bloggingheads-interview-with-michael-behe-4734623.html etc..etc...etc...bornagain77
November 11, 2009
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CLAVDIVS, well I can't speak for others but I find no reason to believe in evolution from empirical evidence: The oldest bacterium fossils, found on earth demonstrate an extreme conservation of morphology which, very contrary to evolutionary thought, simply means they look very similar to Stromatolites and bacteria of today. AMBER: THE LOOKING GLASS INTO THE PAST: Excerpt: These (fossilized bacteria) cells are actually very similar to present day cyanobacteria. This is not only true for an isolated case but many living genera of cyanobacteria can be linked to fossil cyanobacteria. The detail noted in the fossils of this group gives indication of extreme conservation of morphology, more extreme than in other organisms. http://bcb705.blogspot.com/2007/03/amber-looking-glass-into-past_23.html Though it is impossible to reconstruct the DNA of these earliest bacteria fossils, scientists find in the fossil record, and compare them to their descendants of today, there are many ancient bacteria spores recovered and "revived" from salt crystals and amber crystals which have been compared to their living descendants of today. Some bacterium spores, in salt crystals, dating back as far as 250 million years have been revived, had their DNA sequenced, and compared to their offspring of today (Vreeland RH, 2000 Nature). To the disbelieving shock of many scientists, both ancient and modern bacteria were found to have the almost same exact DNA sequence. The Paradox of the "Ancient" Bacterium Which Contains "Modern" Protein-Coding Genes: “Almost without exception, bacteria isolated from ancient material have proven to closely resemble modern bacteria at both morphological and molecular levels.” Heather Maughan*, C. William Birky Jr., Wayne L. Nicholson, William D. Rosenzweig§ and Russell H. Vreeland ; http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/19/9/1637 and this: Revival and identification of bacterial spores in 25- to 40-million-year-old Dominican amber Dr. Cano and his former graduate student Dr. Monica K. Borucki said that they had found slight but significant differences between the DNA of the ancient, 25-40 million year old amber-sealed Bacillus sphaericus and that of its modern counterpart, (thus ruling out that it is a modern contaminant, yet at the same time confounding materialists, since the change is not nearly as great as evolution's "genetic drift" theory requires.) http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/268/5213/1060 30-Million-Year Sleep: Germ Is Declared Alive http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=990CEFD61439F93AA25756C0A963958260&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=2 In reply to a personal e-mail from myself, Dr. Cano commented on the "Fitness Test" I had asked him about: Dr. Cano stated: "We performed such a test, a long time ago, using a panel of substrates (the old gram positive biolog panel) on B. sphaericus. From the results we surmised that the putative "ancient" B. sphaericus isolate was capable of utilizing a broader scope of substrates. Additionally, we looked at the fatty acid profile and here, again, the profiles were similar but more diverse in the amber isolate.": Fitness test which compared the 30 million year old ancient bacteria to its modern day descendants, RJ Cano and MK Borucki Thus, the most solid evidence available for the most ancient DNA scientists are able to find does not support evolution happening on the molecular level of bacteria. In fact, according to the fitness test of Dr. Cano, the change witnessed in bacteria conforms to the exact opposite, Genetic Entropy; a loss of functional information/complexity, since fewer substrates and fatty acids are utilized by the modern strains. Considering the intricate level of protein machinery it takes to utilize individual molecules within a substrate, we are talking an impressive loss of protein complexity, and thus loss of functional information, from the ancient amber sealed bacteria. Is Antibiotic Resistance evidence for evolution? - "Fitness Test" - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BwWpRSYgOE According to prevailing evolutionary dogma, there "HAS" to be “significant genetic/mutational drift” to the DNA of bacteria within 250 million years, even though the morphology (shape) of the bacteria can be expected to remain the same. In spite of their preconceived materialistic bias, scientists find there is no significant genetic drift from the ancient DNA. I find it interesting that the materialistic theory of evolution expects there to be a significant amount of mutational drift from the DNA of ancient bacteria to its modern descendants, while the morphology can be allowed to remain exactly the same with its descendants. Alas for the materialist once again, the hard evidence of ancient DNA has fell in line with the anthropic hypothesis. Revisiting The Central Dogma (Of Evolution) In The 21st Century - James Shapiro - 2008 Excerpt: Genetic change is almost always the result of cellular action on the genome (not replication errors). (of interest - 12 methods of information transfer in the cell are noted in the paper)bornagain77
November 11, 2009
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tribune7
Does this mean that Darwinian mechanisms are false and don’t occur in nature, as suggested in the OP?
Absolutely not! — and I said as much in the first response. The problem is the claim that Darwinian mechanism — undirected genomic changes fixed by natural selection — are adequate to explain biodiversity. They are not. In fact, it is impossible for these mechanism [to explain] all biodiversity. Some biodiversity, yes. All, no.
So do you see the source of confusion for me and, I presume, the average layperson? You say the Darwinian mechanisms are true and real, but incomplete and inadequate to explain biodiversity. But the OP says they are "untrue" and "laughable". Bruce David said (above) that "random variation culled by natural selection produces change in species ... by itself, is incontestable and has been observed in nature and even in the laboratory." But bornagain77 said "Darwinism [is] a theory with never any credible scientific support to sustain it". Am I the only one that is puzzled by this? Just what is ID's position on the reality of Darwinian mechanisms? Thanks C.CLAVDIVS
November 11, 2009
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----Mung: "No, I’m not talking about his use of the word path." May I be bold enough to ask for the second time what you do mean?StephenB
November 11, 2009
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CLAVDIVS Does this mean that Darwinian mechanisms are false and don’t occur in nature, as suggested in the OP? Absolutely not! -- and I said as much in the first response :-) The problem is the claim that Darwinian mechanism -- undirected genomic changes fixed by natural selection -- are adequate to explain biodiversity. They are not. In fact, it is impossible for these mechanism all biodiversity. Some biodiversity, yes. All, no.tribune7
November 11, 2009
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It is not a hard position at all to hold that maybe life is more than just random mutations and natural selection especially if you are a Christian. I mean if you cant even bring yourself to question this debasing view of life then how much of a Christian can you really be? I have said before that I know atheists that don't buy the Darwinian explanation. They don't have a problem with evolution but they can see that obviously there is more- some kind of higher organizing entity that beings forth the symmetry, homology, mathematical pattern, harmony, beauty, and over all structure of the universe- not to mention of the mystery of the soul and consciousness and it's connection to meaning, ideals, significance, love and so forth. All of these things can be broken down to a just so story of evolution- but no where in that story do we find an answer to how this is all universally derived. That is natural selection and chance fail to explain what brings forth chance and nature. Chance and nature are taken as fundamental constants - but when time began there was no form- or nature on which nature can rely on. In other words you have to say that either a greater non material force brings this all about- or just simply Sh!t happens. The first answer is scientific because it is grounded in investigation of the question- and the second is not science because it is only concerned with empiricism. We know there is the potential for there to be more to the world than what we can only simply see- and while it is a synthetic inference to design or God- outside of scriptural deduction- it is at least an inference which makes rational sense. And as a Christian the rationality that points to a God who designs and creates a world should appear manifestly apparent. I am not the best Christian in the world by a long shot- but I can see totally abundantly how one can easily infer God's role in the origin of the world and all of the complex novel things within it. How any Christian could not understand this is completely beyond my ability to reconcile with the faith.Frost122585
November 11, 2009
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Clavis, you make no point except to say "maybe." That is not a good answer. In fact Darwinism is the argument from Dis-teleology in biology and origins of life forms. The idea from Darwin is that the two mechanism are random change and natural selection. This is obviously not enough to account for all of the complexity and specified complexity. That is why the Bible says that God's existence is manifestly obvious- so much so that "no man"- much any man claiming to be a Christian- will be excused. I mean it is just so clear that it is unbelievable how anyone could hold the idea that you could be a Darwinist and a true Christian. What i mean by "True" Christian is that you believe in the tenants of the Bible and what Christ taught- and that you don't throw out the things you don't like. Just saying that you are a Christian does not make you one- and I have no reason whatsoever to accept one entirely on the basis their word when they hold such contradictory positions.Frost122585
November 11, 2009
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tribune7, 11/11/2009, 1:40 pm:
So, which is it: is Darwin’s theory of evolution wrong — has evolution not occurred, or is Darwin’s theory of evolution incomplete — has evolution occurred via the production of variations that have “guided” the pattern of macroevolution?
How about: our understanding of what causes biodiversity is incomplete and any theory that claims to adequately explain the causes of biodiversity is wrong.
I have little problem with what you said, but its terribly vague. Of course our understanding of biology is incomplete. Of course any claim to a 100% complete explanation should be opposed. Does this mean that Darwinian mechanisms are false and don't occur in nature, as suggested in the OP? I don't see the connection at all. Why can't Darwinian mechanisms be the raw material of divine providence? Thanks C.CLAVDIVS
November 11, 2009
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Frost122585, 11/11/2009, 12:50 pm:
Why would the “random” mutations align to produce human beings anyway if God was guiding them? The Bible says God was guiding them- in his creation of man. This is the total opposite of Darwinism.
Maybe -- depends if you define Darwinism to mean ateleology. But God's guidance is not the total opposite of Darwinian mechanisms such as variation, selection, common descent etc. Surely God can act through such processes. In like manner, we understand the processes of conception, embryonic development and birth very well. Does this mean the birth of a child is not a miracle, or is not guided by God? Same goes for the weather, or any other natural process. Romans 1:20 tells us the unfolding of natural processes is equivalent to the unfolding of God's plan. And 1 Corinthians 1:25 leads me to question just why I must accept your prescription of exactly how God is allowed to act on nature. In my view, Darwinian mechanisms play a major role in the history of life, but nevertheless life reeks of teleology. Thanks C.CLAVDIVS
November 11, 2009
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Surely, you are not saying that Frost’s allusion to a “path” deviates significantly from Christ’s use of the word “road.”
No, I'm not talking about his use of the word path.Mung
November 11, 2009
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Allen, Some day you will stick around long enough to learn what ID is about. ID would have no problem with any aspect of Darwin's theory or as it has been modified over time and now let's just call it the evolutionary synthesis if there was evidence to support the various propositions. To take something simple, ID find no evidence that gradual processes led to macro evolution. There may be the odd exception and it will also depend upon what one defines as macro evolution. But to cut to chase, there are vast areas of changes in life that are unexplained by any naturalistic let alone gradual processes. So gradualism is suspect even if the intelligence acted to produce the variation for natural selection to work on. Once the variation appeared there would be a trail of the changes as the variation was increasingly selected for leading to the new characteristics. This then leads one to question the relevancy of natural selection as a driving force. It can not tease out of a gene pool what is not there even if the right environmental circumstances appear. Thus it is not the vaunted force in evolution but only a minor process that operates once the variation appears. And the variation seems to appear en masse and the only explanation for that is intelligent intervention. So gradualism and natural selection are at best minor participants in evolution. A side show. The next pillar of Darwin is Malthusian competition for resources. Is there any evidence of this when there are tens of millions of ecologies on the earth today all subject to limited resources and no evidence of Darwinian processes producing anything of consequence relevant to the theory of evolution. So let's just dismiss Malthus even though it was supposedly the eye opener for Darwin. The final pillar of Darwin is common descent and the Cambrian destroys that. Even if life could work its way back naturally it would hit a wall at the Cambrian. So anyway you want to define evolutionary theory as a naturalistic theory it has major problems. All of which could be explained by the occasional intervention of an intelligence.jerry
November 11, 2009
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---Mung: "The words are his [the path is narrow] (broadly speaking, since that’s not what he actually said, if the Gospel account is to be believed). What account is that? Surely, you are not saying that Frost's allusion to a "path" deviates significantly from Christ's use of the word "road."StephenB
November 11, 2009
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---Allen: "As for Romans 1:20, what part of that verse either requires or denies the direct intervention of God in natural processes?" Nothing. It indicates only that God played a role and made it happen in some way. The point is to ask theistic evolutionists to make up their mind about whether God did or did not play a role, rather than to say, as they do, that he played a role by not playing a role.StephenB
November 11, 2009
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No the deal is that Darwinism says that there is no teleology in nature. You have design without the designer. But Romans says man is left without excuse by the obviousness of God's hand in the design of nature. So you cannot be a Darwinist and a Christian. It is so clear cut. It is that simple. You believe involution but it must obviously by by the handwork of God. Even though the hand itself is invisible the inference to the hand is not.Frost122585
November 11, 2009
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So, which is it: is Darwin’s theory of evolution wrong — has evolution not occurred, or is Darwin’s theory of evolution incomplete — has evolution occurred via the production of variations that have “guided” the pattern of macroevolution? How about: our understanding of what causes biodiversity is incomplete and any theory that claims to adequately explain the causes of biodiversity is wrong.tribune7
November 11, 2009
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---Allen MacNeil: "I completely agree, and also point out that most of the comments in this thread seem to be in the opposite direction: that the proposition that there is indeed design in nature necessarily both requires the intervention of God in nature, and somehow proves the existence of God. Neither of these propositions necessarily follows from the design proposition listed at the end of the previous paragraph, and are in fact completely separate inferences, based on completely separate (and logically incommensurate) evidence." Context, context, context. The comments about which you speak are mainly about Christian Darwinists and their insistence that they can reconcile a purposeful creator with a purposeless, mindless process--that both the Bible and neo-Darwinism are compatible. That is a separate question from the more limited task of drawing conclusions solely from the methods of ID science, which need no references to God at all. Here we go again with another special version of your favorite anti-ID talking point: ID = religion.StephenB
November 11, 2009
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---Mung: "This is just not true. At most, they claim that we cannot draw this conclusion from biology. [Believing the testimony of our senses about design]" Biology is what I am referring to. I understand that theistic evolutionists tend to accept the anthropic principle of design in cosmology. But Romans 1:20 and Psalm 19 applies to all of nature, cosmology and biology--the heavens and the earth, so to speak.StephenB
November 11, 2009
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Sco wrote, "Many if not most of them do think that the universe needed a creator. NDE is not cosmology, Frost." This is nonsense. If they think that God created the universe at the first cause (front loading) or cosmological level then they think that God essentially "designed" everything. There is no reason to think that God created or designed at the cosmological level and not at the biological level. Obviously. The universe could have turned out a multitude of different ways with no life in in- why did it turn out this way? By chance or design? What would a true Christian answer? There is no reason to choose between the two positions of cosmological and biological design. With Christianity it is all or nothing. God created the heavens and earth- and man and all the animals. Period. It was not chance and natural laws but God's word. It would make no sense to think God created a universe that through random and law like processes produced all that we see. Obviously whatever happened at the biological level IS the result of God's design at the cosmological level. There is NO distinction in physics between the cosmological level and biological level. It Is all pert of one universe- that is "universal" reality. Are we to think that God created a universe that did not have to turn out this way?? Of course not. As a Christian, one of the most simple beliefs is that God created the heavens and the Earth FOR man. This is guiding design. To say it is just chance and laws that God used is a false use of the word "chance." Chance means there are other possibilities. If God's goal was to create a world for man then there was no other possibility- because God is perfect and would not allow for anything other than what he decides to do. This simple Christianity. A non-Christian would have trouble with this for sure- but not a true Christian. Which is my point. That is, God did not leave it up to chance to see what would happen but specifically "created" (or designed) man in his own image. This is intelligent design- from image to reality. You cannot hold the position that life arose by purely "undirected and natural( that is impersonal) processes" (which is Darwinism) and be a Christian at the same time. Why would Christ have been able to perform Miracles if there was no physical interaction between God and his deign? He would not have- there is no logical way he could have in a Darwinian world. This is not a question for science but it is one for theology which is what one must face to be a Christian. Why would the "random" mutations align to produce human beings anyway if God was guiding them? The Bible says God was guiding them- in his creation of man. This is the total opposite of Darwinism. It is as simple as that. Anyone who claims to maintain the position of Theistic Darwinism is either simply confused and therefore does not possess a clear and true Christian faith- or is a liar. And most are liars because if they read their Bibles with real faith they would see the two do not square at all. Now as for "Mung"- you have no IDEA what Christianity is about if you think it is a liberal faith. I will repeat for the effect. You have NO IDEA what Christianity is about if you think it is a liberal faith. "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it. Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them." - Jesus Matthew 7:13-16 Peter 4:18--- And, "If it is hard for the righteous to be saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?" Luke 17:26-27 "Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man. People were eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all." Christianity is not liberal at all. This is the Truth. I am sorry you the Truth of Christianity "sickens" you- but that is not an argument against it. There is no Salvation outside of a strict belief in Christ and the word of God. And if you do not think this then you are purposefully ignoring his commandments- that is the word and the Bible. In fact you aren't even paying them any mind whatsoever. People like you who think Christianity is liberal have never even read a Bible- and if you have you have not paid it any mind. The message is as clear as it can be. Do these sound like liberal minded tenants? John 14:6: “Jesus saith to them: I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No man cometh to the Father, but by me.” “He that believeth in the Son hath life everlasting: but he that believeth not the Son, shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him.” John 3:36: and i will quote Romans- 20-"For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse." No, the position of Darwinism is not at all rational in a Christian world view and Christianity is not liberal at all compared to virtually any other Faith or doctrine. Anyone who would discount what the Bible says doesn ot believe it to be the absolute Truth and living word of God. Rememeber this is not to say they need to know about or understand ID- you CAN be a Christain not be in favor of ID as good science- but you cannot belive in Darwinism because it goes directly against scripture. And that is just reality.Frost122585
November 11, 2009
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