Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Darwinian Debating Device #19: How to Trick Yourself: The Darwinian Thought Process

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One of the primary things keeping traditional evolutionary theory afloat is not the mountain of evidence supposedly existing in its favor, but the way in which the evidence is interpreted in the context of the pre-existing Darwinian paradigm.

The key is the way evolutionary theorists tend to proceed from an observation to a series of conclusions. When you are steeped in evolutionary thought, when no alternative explanations are permitted as a matter of fiat, when the only possible interpretation open to you is a purely naturalistic and materialistic explanation, the conclusions seem to follow naturally.

To paraphrase Philip Johnson’s wry (and somewhat sarcastic) observation:

Evolution is really easy to prove. Since “evolution” means both tiny changes and the whole grand creative process, if we can prove a tiny change then we’ve proved the whole grand creative process. Therefore “evolution” occurred. So what’s your problem?

Unfortunately, this is not a parody. It is the basis for so much of evolutionary thought.

In a prior thread, I called out Dr. David Reznick for this kind of mistake. Seemingly unaware that they were making the very same errors, some commenters fell into the same trap. Again, if we are steeped in materialistic evolutionary theory, the path from meager evidence to grand sweeping conclusions seems to follow rather naturally. However, if we are able to escape from that intellectual trap for a moment, we eventually see that the series of conclusions do not in fact follow from the prior evidence and assumptions.

There is much that could be written about the Darwinian mindset and the approach typically taken by promoters of materialistic evolutionary theory, and this brief post cannot possibly constitute a comprehensive discussion. For now, I simply want to outline in graphical form the basic steps that are taken in the thought process. Some promoters of evolutionary theory may be more inclined to one aspect or another, but the overall outline is all too common:

DarwinianThought1

When we analyze the above thought process we note a few things. Again, the flow from one step to another seems rather reasonable if we approach things from a traditional Neo-Darwinian perspective. Indeed, we often hear supporters of evolutionary theory acknowledge things like the tautology of natural selection, while at the same time claiming that it still provides useful knowledge. Further, skeptics might even be inclined to grant that natural selection is, by definition, occurring in a particular situation, because the larger issues of interest to the skeptic lie elsewhere.

Farther to the right, we might even be tempted to admit that “evolution” is true in a general sense, without carefully distinguishing the kinds of changes experienced by an organism and the kinds of changes required to bring about the organism in the first place. Finally, if we are unfamiliar with the primary skeptical arguments or if we fail to realize how our own conflation of concepts clouds the issue, we might be tempted to conclude that anyone who doubts evolution is simply wrong.

To help us understand exactly what is going on then, I include below an additional series of boxes with arrows pointing to the relevant “therefore” and an explanation of what is really going on at that step in the process to enable the Darwinist to draw the conclusion.

DarwinianThought2

Once we see what is actually going on with each step of the thought process – with each of the “therefores” in the chain of thought – rather than finding convincing, overwhelming proof of the theory we instead find a series of unsupported assumptions, circular definitions, conflated concepts and unsound reasoning.

Comments
Box:
The ID position is not that the search space (e.g. protein search space) cannot be explored, but that search space is too large to find anything within a reasonable margin.
This is something I don't understand from the ID side. Why do you consider that a search must be re-started after every failure? If I was a tourist from New York searching for a specific restaurant in San Diego, I would not go back to New York on each failure to find it. I would instead continue searching from my last position in San Diego. This is the way a "Darwinian search" is done, from close to your original "location". Just as a poker player does not discard three aces in order to try and get four.Carpathian
October 23, 2015
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Box:
Carp: A “Darwinian search” is also a metaphor. Indeed. And it is often used in relationship to mutations — not natural selection.
A "Darwinian search" contains both attributes, mutations and selection. If it was only mutation, then the ID side would be absolutely correct about "Darwinism". The filter of life is the environment it is trying to survive in, and every organism that fails to survive in that environment, has therefore not been "selected" by that environment. Again, "selection" is a metaphor for surviving in a specific environment. So first, mutation, then the metaphorical outcome called "selection", both acting together.Carpathian
October 23, 2015
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DS, I gave a classic case of argument from the literature, eschatological justification. The point is that if an argument is not reachable by testing in the here and now it is not of great utility. Which, predictably, Z missed. The far more reachable case, known since Darwin in fact, is the Cambrian explosion, which someone above highlighted as involving fish. I point out that per the grounded adequate cause test, vera causa, origin of main body plans being explained on blind watchmaker mechanisms, does not have adequate naturalistic cause. This, on grounds of the FSCO/I involved, where the only empirically warranted cause of such is intelligence acting by directed configuration. To the origin of body plans we can add origin of cell based life which properly can only appeal to physics and chemistry, as reproduction and self replication involving von Neuman kinematic self replication is to be explained. Again, the FSCO/I points to the only serious, vera causa plausible explanation on the table, absent ideological a priori of materialism. Which is the real root problem. Where such evolutionary materialism is inherently self referentially incoherent due to the issue of its undermining our needing responsible rational freedom in order to reason, warrant and know. KFkairosfocus
October 23, 2015
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Evolutionists or Evoillusionistscomputerist
October 23, 2015
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Potential falsification is a test.
Not if you cannot make a positive case, which you cannot. By the way no one has ever answered: How would the existence of a Cambrian rabbit falsify a concept that cannot explain the existence of rabbits?Virgil Cain
October 23, 2015
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KF, Could you elaborate on your point from 175? I don't see the connection between falsifiability and theism and the scenario of standing before God.daveS
October 23, 2015
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kairosfocus: I am fairly sure Z would object to the point that standing before God in judgement at the Last Day is a test of the falsifiability of theism. Heh. That's quite the scientific argument. kairosfocus: Where BTW, testability thus objective warrant is a sounder approach than crying falsifiability. Potential falsification is a test. By the way, no one ever answered: Does anyone think it plausible to demonstrate the existence of a rabbit in the Cambrian? If not, why not?Zachriel
October 23, 2015
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Falsifiability is good but it does not take the place of a positive test criterion. Without a way to positively test the claim the claim is useless. Intelligent Design offers both a way to falsify it and a way to make a positive case.Virgil Cain
October 23, 2015
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VC, right. There is far too much wiggle room there. And I am fairly sure Z would object to the point that standing before God in judgement at the Last Day is a test of the falsifiability of theism. Where BTW, testability thus objective warrant is a sounder approach than crying falsifiability. KFkairosfocus
October 23, 2015
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Actually, it is a direct response to the falsifiability of Common Descent, which claims that all organisms evolved from primitive ancestors.
Actually it is a distraction because first you need a way to test the claim before you can falsify it.Virgil Cain
October 23, 2015
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kairosfocus: the Cambrian Rabbit issue is a side track. Actually, it is a direct response to the falsifiability of Common Descent, which claims that all organisms evolved from primitive ancestors.Zachriel
October 23, 2015
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Box: Indeed, according to the Darwinian narrative novelty comes from mutation. All the fancy stuff of life is due to sheer dumb luck. The results of a random generator and the results of an evolutionary process are not the same — even if you repeat your claim. Eric Anderson: No-one doubts that less fit organisms are less likely to survive in their particular environment. This is a completely pedestrian observation, is something that was known long before Darwin, and we don’t need any evolutionary theory to point this out. The key insight is that differences in fitness lead to change in the hereditary composition of a population.Zachriel
October 23, 2015
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Folks, the Cambrian Rabbit issue is a side track. The issue on the table (cf Darwin's Doubt) is the Cambrian explosion . . . hence the fish on the table comment above . . . and -- pace Z's attempt to brush it aside -- the linked need to account for novel body plans with massive FSCO/I on blind chance and mechanical necessity. Especially, where the need for multiple, well matched parts (not to mention self-assembly of body plans) naturally, on massive observation, leads to islands of function in seas of non-function in the config space. The attempt to suggest a vast continent of incrementally attainable function per branching tree of life is deeply challenged by the implications of config spaces, and requires a degree of empirical grounding that after 150 years is still very much absent. A good place to begin (as proteins are needed for cell types, tissues, organs and thus novel body plans), is the issue of AA-chain space and the challenge of finding relevant proteins on blind watchmaker processes. Where survival or even adaptation of the fit (often, by breaking things at molecular level . . . itself a sign of islands of function) does not properly account for origin or arrival of said fittest. Where of course the question of origin of C-chemistry, aqueous medium, protein synthesising, dna code using, self replicating, encapsulated with smart gating cell based life is the even more unexplained root of the whole matter. And, for that -- as this is OOL -- only chemistry and physics can be brought to the table; hence the massive haystack to find a needle in with comparatively vastly inadequate resources on the scope of an observed cosmos of 10^80 atoms and 13.7 BY; beyond, one is in the realm of metaphysical speculations of unseen multiverses and ALL reasonable worldview options must of right sit at the table of comparative difficulties. In short, the vera causa test has not been passed and -- Prof Moran et al kindly cf here on for first level documentation -- we are seeing institutionally dominant, philosophically driven ideology dressed up in a lab coat. The only empirically warranted, analytically plausible source of functionally specific complex organisation and/or associated information beyond 500 - 1,000 bits, is intelligently directed configuration, aka design. Thus, it is inductively justified per inference to best explanation to infer from FSCO/I to design as most plausible cause, and to hold that to overturn such, all that would be required is to pass the vera causa test for blind watchmaker claims . . . but after 150 years that seems actually less likely than in Darwin's day. But as this is maximally politically incorrect, it will be fought tooth and nail to the bitter end. Which is precisely what we are seeing. KFkairosfocus
October 23, 2015
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Zachs: But you’ve been hung up on the word “creative”. Yes, novelty comes from mutation, (...)
Indeed, according to the Darwinian narrative novelty comes from mutation. All the fancy stuff of life is due to sheer dumb luck. Amazing. Amazing "theory".
Zachs: (...) but without selection, there is no adaptation.
Eric Anderson puts it like this:
No-one doubts that less fit organisms are less likely to survive in their particular environment. This is a completely pedestrian observation, is something that was known long before Darwin, and we don’t need any evolutionary theory to point this out. [my emphasis]
Box
October 22, 2015
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Box: The thing is that when Zach is using “search” or “sieve” as metaphors for “natural selection”, then implicitly he assumes an abundant variety of robust organisms that are readily available. Not at all, and we'd be happy to discuss this facet of evolution. But you've been hung up on the word "creative". Yes, novelty comes from mutation, but without selection, there is no adaptation. Box: watch him go at it in post #124. Actually, that's the implication of your toy model, which you explicitly accepted. Your toy model is the equivalent a random generator. Box: When we look at the work of Douglas Axe, who in effect shows that protein evolution is impossible, another picture emerges. We know Axe's results are wrong because even random sequences can result in functional proteins.Zachriel
October 22, 2015
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Carp: A sieve actually “searches” for gold in a metaphorical way.
Zach is comparing natural selection to a sieve. This is actually a very telling comparison …
Carp: A “Darwinian search” is also a metaphor.
Indeed. And it is often used in relationship to mutations — not natural selection.
Carp: No configuration of genetic “information” is searched for so the ID position that the “search space” cannot be explored is invalid.
I don’t understand what you mean here. The ID position is not that the search space (e.g. protein search space) cannot be explored, but that search space is too large to find anything within a reasonable margin.
Carp: The “search” is a metaphor.
Sure it is, and in relationship with natural selection very telling, like I said. The thing is that when Zach is using “search” or “sieve” as metaphors for “natural selection”, then implicitly he assumes an abundant variety of robust organisms that are readily available. In the Darwinian fantasy chance effortlessly creates life forms in all shape and sizes. We may be willing to forgive Darwin such naivety, but even today in the subconsciousness of Darwinists it is assumed that chance offers an endless variety of all sorts of robust organisms. Next natural selection steps in to function as a “sieve” and bring some order to the unstoppable abundance of life forms that tumble over each other — Zach is a point in case, watch him go at it in post #124. When we look at the work of Douglas Axe, who in effect shows that protein evolution is impossible, another picture emerges.Box
October 22, 2015
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Do you think it plausible to find scientific evidence of a rabbit in the Cambrian?
If evolutionism is true I wouldn't expect to find evidence of a rabbit. :razz:Virgil Cain
October 22, 2015
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Because the Theory of Evolution states that rabbits are descendants of a long lineages including primitive tetrapod, amniotes, mammals.
Reference please- your word is meaningless. I bet the alleged theory of evolution doesn't even mention rabbits.
However, no organism can precede its ancestor,
And yet we have fish-> tetrapods-> fish-a-pods. However, fish-a-pods are the alleged ancestor of tetrapodsVirgil Cain
October 22, 2015
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No one ever answered: Do you think it plausible to find scientific evidence of a rabbit in the Cambrian? If not, why not?Zachriel
October 22, 2015
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mike1962: Such an event would falsify the universal notion that all things fall down and not up. But it would not necessarily falsify the general notion of things falling down in general. The Theory of Gravity posits that all masses attract. If there are exceptions, then the Theory of Gravity has to be modified, because the current formulation is falsified. That doesn't mean we can't come up with a revised theory. mike1962: And we still use Newton’s calculations even though we have General Relativity. That's true. We do so by modifying the original theory to apply only to limited domains. It's Newton's Theory of Gravity, as long as we don't move too fast or have too much mass. mike1962: why would the Cambrian rabbit necessarily and completely overthrow the blind theory of evolution generally? Because the Theory of Evolution states that rabbits are descendants of a long lineages including primitive tetrapod, amniotes, mammals. A rabbit in the Cambrian would have no plausible ancestor. mike1962: By the way, an anomoly of gravity, per your example, deals with something most consider a “law” of nature. Laws are just observed regularities. They also can have limited domains, and nearly always do. mike1962: It would seem there is a lot more wiggle room with regard to Common Descent given that a great many particulars about how life evolved are unknown. Common Descent has a historical component, and many of the specifics are subject to change. However, no organism can precede its ancestor, and all extant organisms have ancestors. Zachriel: Like a sieve is metaphorical. Box: Obviously The Internet is really amazing. You can now buy a set of three metaphors on Amazon. http://www.amazon.com/Cuisinart-Fine-Stainless-Steel-Strainers/dp/B007TUQF9OZachriel
October 22, 2015
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Carpathian: "Do you agree with the following? Whether or not a mutation is “good” or “bad” is irrelevant if the the mutation does not prevent the organism from continuing to reproduce." Sheut no! If a mutation decreases the rate of successful reproduction in the organism or its progeny, then natural selection is motivated to remove it. (If it only marginally reduces reproductive success, it may get fixed anyway, but there are vast swaths of opportunity between marginal and fatal.) Consider, for instance, that a mutation increases the chance that progeny die of disease by 10% prior to reproducing. This would significantly decrease the rate of successful reproduction, and would be weeded out in very few generations.bFast
October 22, 2015
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Do you agree with the following? Whether or not a mutation is “good” or “bad” is irrelevant if the the mutation does not prevent the organism from continuing to reproduce.
No, I do not agree with that.Virgil Cain
October 22, 2015
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Virgil Cain, Do you agree with the following? Whether or not a mutation is “good” or “bad” is irrelevant if the the mutation does not prevent the organism from continuing to reproduce.Carpathian
October 22, 2015
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A “Darwinian search” is also a metaphor.
No, it is an oxymoron. That is another reason unguided evolution is impotent.Virgil Cain
October 22, 2015
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Box:
Indeed. Obviously, a sieve “creates” gold only in a metaphorical and irrelevant way. Yet Darwinians hold otherwise.
A sieve actually "searches" for gold in a metaphorical way. A "Darwinian search" is also a metaphor. No configuration of genetic "information" is searched for so the ID position that the "search space" cannot be explored is invalid. The "search" is a metaphor. Whether or not a mutation is "good" or "bad" is irrelevant if the the mutation does not prevent the organism from continuing to reproduce. In this way, mutations can accumulate until eventually they provide an advantage to an organism or kill it off.Carpathian
October 22, 2015
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Thanks to the work of Shubin, et al. with Tiktaalik and the finding of tetrapod tracks some 20 million years older, we now have the succession of fish-> tetrapods-> fish-a-pods, whereas fish-a-pods should precede tetrapods.Virgil Cain
October 22, 2015
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An organism preceding any plausible ancestor would falsify the notion that organisms descend from more primitive ancestors.
How would we know that a rabbit in the Cambrian preceded any plausible ancestor? And what if the concept cannot account for rabbits, regardless of where they are found?Virgil Cain
October 22, 2015
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what about the citrate experiment suggests anything other than random mutation?
The only gene, out of all the genes, that could allow for citrate transport gets duplicated and put under the control of a promoter that just happens to be active in the presence of O2. It wasn't overly expressed. The duplicated gene was expressed just enough to allow for adequate citrate transport for metabolism. Your position says "it just happened"- is that the "science" of evolutionary biology?Virgil Cain
October 22, 2015
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Zach,
Box: So, existing forms are the “result” of natural selection in a metaphorical and irrelevant way only.
Zachs: Like a sieve is metaphorical.
Indeed. Obviously, a sieve "creates" gold only in a metaphorical and irrelevant way. Yet Darwinians hold otherwise.Box
October 22, 2015
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Zechriels: And finding out that things on the moon don’t fall down but up would only falsify that some objects fall down. Such an event would falsify the universal notion that all things fall down and not up. But it would not necessarily falsify the general notion of things falling down in general. Anomalies exist all over the scientific world of theories without general theories being abandoned. And we still use Newton's calculations even though we have General Relativity. We’re asking you. Is it plausible? If not, why not? I asked Zechrials first: why would the Cambrian rabbit necessarily and completely overthrow the blind theory of evolution generally? Are you of the opinion that the corpus of work that you believe supports the Modern Synthesis and Common Descent in general would be completely falsified by a Cambrian rabbit? By the way, an anomoly of gravity, per your example, deals with something most consider a "law" of nature. It's nature is quite a bit more fundamental than Common Descent. Or do you consider Common Descent to be a "law" on par with gravity? It would seem there is a lot more wiggle room with regard to Common Descent given that a great many particulars about how life evolved are unknown. People "falling up" on the moon would undoubtedly generate quite a shock to our understand of nature at its fundamental level. Would a Cambrian rabbit do the same with regards to Common Descent. I doubt it, except, perhaps, with those of diehard anti-telic philosophical persuasion.mike1962
October 22, 2015
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