Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Darwinian Debating Device #19: How to Trick Yourself: The Darwinian Thought Process

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One of the primary things keeping traditional evolutionary theory afloat is not the mountain of evidence supposedly existing in its favor, but the way in which the evidence is interpreted in the context of the pre-existing Darwinian paradigm.

The key is the way evolutionary theorists tend to proceed from an observation to a series of conclusions. When you are steeped in evolutionary thought, when no alternative explanations are permitted as a matter of fiat, when the only possible interpretation open to you is a purely naturalistic and materialistic explanation, the conclusions seem to follow naturally.

To paraphrase Philip Johnson’s wry (and somewhat sarcastic) observation:

Evolution is really easy to prove. Since “evolution” means both tiny changes and the whole grand creative process, if we can prove a tiny change then we’ve proved the whole grand creative process. Therefore “evolution” occurred. So what’s your problem?

Unfortunately, this is not a parody. It is the basis for so much of evolutionary thought.

In a prior thread, I called out Dr. David Reznick for this kind of mistake. Seemingly unaware that they were making the very same errors, some commenters fell into the same trap. Again, if we are steeped in materialistic evolutionary theory, the path from meager evidence to grand sweeping conclusions seems to follow rather naturally. However, if we are able to escape from that intellectual trap for a moment, we eventually see that the series of conclusions do not in fact follow from the prior evidence and assumptions.

There is much that could be written about the Darwinian mindset and the approach typically taken by promoters of materialistic evolutionary theory, and this brief post cannot possibly constitute a comprehensive discussion. For now, I simply want to outline in graphical form the basic steps that are taken in the thought process. Some promoters of evolutionary theory may be more inclined to one aspect or another, but the overall outline is all too common:

DarwinianThought1

When we analyze the above thought process we note a few things. Again, the flow from one step to another seems rather reasonable if we approach things from a traditional Neo-Darwinian perspective. Indeed, we often hear supporters of evolutionary theory acknowledge things like the tautology of natural selection, while at the same time claiming that it still provides useful knowledge. Further, skeptics might even be inclined to grant that natural selection is, by definition, occurring in a particular situation, because the larger issues of interest to the skeptic lie elsewhere.

Farther to the right, we might even be tempted to admit that “evolution” is true in a general sense, without carefully distinguishing the kinds of changes experienced by an organism and the kinds of changes required to bring about the organism in the first place. Finally, if we are unfamiliar with the primary skeptical arguments or if we fail to realize how our own conflation of concepts clouds the issue, we might be tempted to conclude that anyone who doubts evolution is simply wrong.

To help us understand exactly what is going on then, I include below an additional series of boxes with arrows pointing to the relevant “therefore” and an explanation of what is really going on at that step in the process to enable the Darwinist to draw the conclusion.

DarwinianThought2

Once we see what is actually going on with each step of the thought process – with each of the “therefores” in the chain of thought – rather than finding convincing, overwhelming proof of the theory we instead find a series of unsupported assumptions, circular definitions, conflated concepts and unsound reasoning.

Comments
Eric Anderson: Thanks, but I’m looking for something more substantive, than just a general claim of “selection” having occurred. Natural selection is the differential reproductive potential due to differences in heritable traits. A simple example is how antibiotic resistance spreads in a population when in the presence of antibiotics. Another example is how coloration changes in guppies in the presence of predators. Zachriel
Zachriel @210: Thanks, but I'm looking for something more substantive, than just a general claim of "selection" having occurred. After all, a very large part of the issue on the table is what "selection" means and whether it has any substance. It cannot just be adopted conveniently as a matter of definitional fiat. Otherwise, we fall right into the first fallacy box described in the OP. ----- Again, just to be clear, I am not taking the position that there is no distinction between different kinds of physical events. Maybe there is some value in drawing a distinction and perhaps a particular set of physical events could be given a convenience label of "natural selection." I'd sincerely like to know what that distinction is and how it can be objectively drawn. So far, I haven't seen a good analysis on that front from anyone who promotes natural "selection" as some kind of driving force in nature. Eric Anderson
Zechriels: Ha! Now you got it! Those past bservations strongly support the standard phylogeny and common descent. I never said otherwise. For the sake of discussion, I stipulate to that, and always have. You seem to be of the opinion that a single instance of a Cambrian rabbit fossil would falsify the interpretation generally of the fossil record with regards to the standard phylogeny and common descent. Do I read you correctly? If so, why would it necessarily force such an abandonment of the standard phylogeny and common descent generally? mike1962
Eric Anderson: I certainly agree that there are cases in which we can argue that an organism was spared from the grim reaper by pure luck. It seems to happen all the time. That's right. Eric Anderson: What is less clear is how many good examples there are to the contrary. There are many observations of selection in nature and in the lab. Zachriel
Zachriel, The answer to your question is: Given evolutionism we wouldn't expect to find evidence of rabbits anywhere. Virgil Cain
Never mind- Virgil Cain
Half a population is wiped out by a lava flow. The other half is not. That is not natural selection, as there is no heritable difference between the populations that is related to the cause of their demise. The climate turns dry, and plants with small seeds die out. Birds with larger beaks have an advantage cracking larger seeds, so, over time, become more common in the population. This is natural selection, a heritable difference related to the cause of the change in the population.
Yes, we often hear that the abrupt natural disaster might be something different from natural selection. And it might in some specific cases. But it is not nearly so clear cut and we would be well-served to think through these kinds of hypotheticals in a bit more detail. If there is a slow lava flow, such as we regularly see on Hawaii, then those organisms that are able to escape would have done so because of some characteristic (presumably heritable) they possess. Is it the speed of the lava flow you are positing in your hypothetical that somehow makes it not an example of natural selection? Yet even with a quick lava flow, there are plenty of organisms that would survive -- many birds who can fly away and escape, for example -- with that survival being directly related to their characteristics that assist survival, and with those characteristics being heritable. Clearly an example of natural selection, by your definition. In either case -- a lava flow (whether slow or fast) or a drought -- we are essentially dealing with the various vagaries and hazards of nature, events that are essentially random and haphazard in their existence and application. I certainly agree that there are cases in which we can argue that an organism was spared from the grim reaper by pure luck. It seems to happen all the time. What is less clear is how many good examples there are to the contrary. The speed of an event is highly questionable as a differentiating factor. And if, as Neo-Darwinism claims, the very changes in DNA that allowed an organism to survive a particular event in the first place are themselves the result of sheer random luck, then we are ultimately dealing with luck all the way down. Eric Anderson
mike1962: Likelihood is based on statistics of past events. Ha! Now you got it! Those past bservations strongly support the standard phylogeny and common descent. Do you think it plausible to find scientific evidence of a rabbit in the Cambrian? If not, why not? Zachriel
Zechriels: We [sic] did address it. Some alien species made rabbits, then left them on Earth to be found. Most likely, they would have to be time travelers... Likelihood is based on statistics of past events. There is not enough data to determine any sort of likelihood. ...otherwise, they wouldn’t probably be aware of rabbits, which is a very specific organism found within a very specific phylogenetic position. It’s ad hoc. You're making an assumption that all rabbits must necessarily only exist at a "specific phylogenetic position" due to a presumption of blind evolution in all cases and that aliens would have to somehow know the future. But blind evolution in all cases is what is on trial here. A rabbit in the Cambrian does not require time-travelers as an explanation. Another explanation is that evolution is generally true, was guided by aliens along preconceived notions of what organisms should develop, with occasional interventions. If a Cambrian rabbit fossil was found, that scenario would explain the data without resorting to time travel and without falsifying evolution generally. So then, what would necessarily falsify Common Descent generally? mike1962
mike1962: To help you understand, say humans today genetically modified an organism that otherwise could not have plausibly evolved. Say knowlege of this was eventually lost. 1,000,000 years from now scientists discover evidence of this intelligently modified organism. We did address it. Some alien species made rabbits, then left them on Earth to be found. Most likely, they would have to be time travelers, otherwise, they wouldn't probably be aware of rabbits, which is a very specific organism found within a very specific phylogenetic position. It's ad hoc. Do you think it plausible to find scientific evidence of a rabbit in the Cambrian? If not, why not? Zachriel
Zechriels, You didn't address my hypothetical @197. Instead you bring up some irrelevancy about gravity and angels. Okie dokie. mike1962
And Zachriel's position cannot explain the existence of gravity! Virgil Cain
mike1962: I rest my argument. Maybe angels move the planets on crystal spheres, but they do it so it looks just like gravity! http://zachriel.com/blog/Angels.jpg Zachriel
Zechriels, I rest my argument. mike1962
A Cambrian rabbit would have no plausible ancestors,
Except you don't know that, so you lose, again, as usual. Virgil Cain
mike1962: You keep saying that, but you haven’t justified it. Common descent claims that all natural organisms are descendants of primitive ancestors. A Cambrian rabbit would have no plausible ancestors, so this claim would be falsified. Of course, it could be time-traveling rabbits; but that just goes to show how far you have to go to salvage any semblance of the original theory. Maybe it's common descent, but an alien teenager threw a rabbit into the Cambrian strata just for kicks! Maybe it's not fusion in the Sun, but a hamster on a treadmill! Zachriel
Zechriels: Short of time-traveling rabbits, showing that rabbits existed in the Cambrian would overthrow Common Descent. You keep saying that, but you haven't justified it. Perhaps you could propose some way to salvage the theory. Intelligent intervention. See #146. To help you understand, say humans today genetically modified an organism that otherwise could not have plausibly evolved. Say knowlege of this was eventually lost. 1,000,000 years from now scientists discover evidence of this intelligently modified organism. Would that discovery necessarily falsify Common Descent via blind evolution for all/most organisms? Of course not. So then, I ask again: what would necessarily falsify Common Descent for all/most organisms? mike1962
How can a concept be falsified by the existence of a cambrian rabbit when it can’t even explain the existence of rabbits? Virgil Cain
Short of time-traveling rabbits, showing that rabbits existed in the Cambrian would overthrow Common Descent
No it wouldn't. What makes a rabbit a rabbit, Zachriel? Without knowing that you don't know if there were any precursors to a cambrian rabbit. Also absence of evidence is not evidence for absence. See, those are but two ways to save the concept Virgil Cain
mike1962: Having said that, you thereby acknowledge that the Cambrian rabbit would not necessarily falsify Common Descent for all/most organisms. Short of time-traveling rabbits, showing that rabbits existed in the Cambrian would overthrow Common Descent. Perhaps you could propose some way to salvage the theory. Zachriel
Zechriels: That’s true. We do so by modifying the original theory to apply only to limited domains. It’s Newton’s Theory of Gravity, as long as we don’t move too fast or have too much mass... Common Descent has a historical component, and many of the specifics are subject to change. However, no organism can precede its ancestor, and all extant organisms have ancestors. Having said that, you thereby acknowledge that the Cambrian rabbit would not necessarily falsify Common Descent for all/most organisms. So then, what would falsify Common Descent for all/most organisms? mike1962
Z, the rhetoric of selectively hyperskeptical dismissal of the pivotal question of origin of functionally specific complex organisation and associated information required for body plans (including the first) may for the moment secure a locked in default of the evolutionary materialist magisterium, but long term more and more are seeing the question begging ideological imposition. KF kairosfocus
It’s a transitional between celphalochordates and vertebrates.
Or just a separate albeit intermediate form. We understand why you want to ignore that point.
Common Descent can be falsified by the fossil succession.
Common Descent needs a way to be tested. How can a concept be falsified by the existence of a cambrian rabbit when it can't even explain the existence of rabbits? We understand why you would want to ignore that also.
Good luck with your FSCO/I.
Good luck finding the all elusive "theory of evolution" Virgil Cain
kairosfocus: I notice how you have dodged the Cambrian fossil life revolution as a whole and the issues it raises. Actually, you were trying to change the subject, which is whether Common Descent can be falsified by the fossil succession. Good luck with your FSCO/I. Zachriel
Z, I notice how you have dodged the Cambrian fossil life revolution as a whole and the issues it raises. Let me put this in Meyer's summary from a decade ago:
The Cambrian explosion represents a remarkable jump in the specified complexity or "complex specified information" (CSI) of the biological world. For over three billions years, the biological realm included little more than bacteria and algae (Brocks et al. 1999). Then, beginning about 570-565 million years ago (mya), the first complex multicellular organisms appeared in the rock strata, including sponges, cnidarians, and the peculiar Ediacaran biota (Grotzinger et al. 1995). Forty million years later, the Cambrian explosion occurred (Bowring et al. 1993) . . . One way to estimate the amount of new CSI that appeared with the Cambrian animals is to count the number of new cell types that emerged with them (Valentine 1995:91-93) . . . the more complex animals that appeared in the Cambrian (e.g., arthropods) would have required fifty or more cell types . . . New cell types require many new and specialized proteins. New proteins, in turn, require new genetic information. Thus an increase in the number of cell types implies (at a minimum) a considerable increase in the amount of specified genetic information. Molecular biologists have recently estimated that a minimally complex single-celled organism would require between 318 and 562 kilobase pairs of DNA to produce the proteins necessary to maintain life (Koonin 2000). More complex single cells might require upward of a million base pairs. Yet to build the proteins necessary to sustain a complex arthropod such as a trilobite would require orders of magnitude more coding instructions. The genome size of a modern arthropod, the fruitfly Drosophila melanogaster, is approximately 180 million base pairs (Gerhart & Kirschner 1997:121, Adams et al. 2000). Transitions from a single cell to colonies of cells to complex animals represent significant (and, in principle, measurable) increases in CSI . . . . In order to explain the origin of the Cambrian animals, one must account not only for new proteins and cell types, but also for the origin of new body plans . . . Mutations in genes that are expressed late in the development of an organism will not affect the body plan. Mutations expressed early in development, however, could conceivably produce significant morphological change (Arthur 1997:21) . . . [but] processes of development are tightly integrated spatially and temporally such that changes early in development will require a host of other coordinated changes in separate but functionally interrelated developmental processes downstream. For this reason, mutations will be much more likely to be deadly if they disrupt a functionally deeply-embedded structure such as a spinal column than if they affect more isolated anatomical features such as fingers (Kauffman 1995:200) . . . McDonald notes that genes that are observed to vary within natural populations do not lead to major adaptive changes, while genes that could cause major changes--the very stuff of macroevolution--apparently do not vary. In other words, mutations of the kind that macroevolution doesn't need (namely, viable genetic mutations in DNA expressed late in development) do occur, but those that it does need (namely, beneficial body plan mutations expressed early in development) apparently don't occur.
. . . now amplified of course through his best-selling Darwin's Doubt. That issue of the origin of FSCO/I to account for body plans is what you need to answer, and the lack of a cogent answer after a decade is all too patent. Indeed, after 150 years. KF kairosfocus
Second, Metaspriggina lacks vertebrae, not to mention fins. It’s a transitional between celphalochordates and vertebrates.
Or just a separate, albeit intermediate, form. Virgil Cain
kairosfocus: The far more reachable case, known since Darwin in fact, is the Cambrian explosion, which someone above highlighted as involving fish. Z: Metaspriggina lacks vertebrae, not to mention fins. It’s a transitional between celphalochordates and vertebrates. https://uncommondescent.com/evolution/how-to-trick-yourself-the-darwinian-thought-process/#comment-583849 Zachriel
Virgil Cain:
Right, you could be shot because your search for the restaurant brought you too close to the Mexican border. ????
LOL!! Good one! Carpathian
KF, Thanks, I hadn't heard of that term before. I take it this is the same concept:
Eschatological verification describes a case where a statement can be verifiable if true but not falsifiable if false. The term is most commonly used in relation to God and the afterlife.
daveS
A “Darwinian search” contains both attributes, mutations and selection.
A “Darwinian search” is an oxymoron as it is merely accidental mutations and elimination of the less fit.
If I was a tourist from New York searching for a specific restaurant in San Diego, I would not go back to New York on each failure to find it.
Right, you could be shot because your search for the restaurant brought you too close to the Mexican border. :razz: Virgil Cain
Box:
The ID position is not that the search space (e.g. protein search space) cannot be explored, but that search space is too large to find anything within a reasonable margin.
This is something I don't understand from the ID side. Why do you consider that a search must be re-started after every failure? If I was a tourist from New York searching for a specific restaurant in San Diego, I would not go back to New York on each failure to find it. I would instead continue searching from my last position in San Diego. This is the way a "Darwinian search" is done, from close to your original "location". Just as a poker player does not discard three aces in order to try and get four. Carpathian
Box:
Carp: A “Darwinian search” is also a metaphor. Indeed. And it is often used in relationship to mutations — not natural selection.
A "Darwinian search" contains both attributes, mutations and selection. If it was only mutation, then the ID side would be absolutely correct about "Darwinism". The filter of life is the environment it is trying to survive in, and every organism that fails to survive in that environment, has therefore not been "selected" by that environment. Again, "selection" is a metaphor for surviving in a specific environment. So first, mutation, then the metaphorical outcome called "selection", both acting together. Carpathian
DS, I gave a classic case of argument from the literature, eschatological justification. The point is that if an argument is not reachable by testing in the here and now it is not of great utility. Which, predictably, Z missed. The far more reachable case, known since Darwin in fact, is the Cambrian explosion, which someone above highlighted as involving fish. I point out that per the grounded adequate cause test, vera causa, origin of main body plans being explained on blind watchmaker mechanisms, does not have adequate naturalistic cause. This, on grounds of the FSCO/I involved, where the only empirically warranted cause of such is intelligence acting by directed configuration. To the origin of body plans we can add origin of cell based life which properly can only appeal to physics and chemistry, as reproduction and self replication involving von Neuman kinematic self replication is to be explained. Again, the FSCO/I points to the only serious, vera causa plausible explanation on the table, absent ideological a priori of materialism. Which is the real root problem. Where such evolutionary materialism is inherently self referentially incoherent due to the issue of its undermining our needing responsible rational freedom in order to reason, warrant and know. KF kairosfocus
Evolutionists or Evoillusionists computerist
Potential falsification is a test.
Not if you cannot make a positive case, which you cannot. By the way no one has ever answered: How would the existence of a Cambrian rabbit falsify a concept that cannot explain the existence of rabbits? Virgil Cain
KF, Could you elaborate on your point from 175? I don't see the connection between falsifiability and theism and the scenario of standing before God. daveS
kairosfocus: I am fairly sure Z would object to the point that standing before God in judgement at the Last Day is a test of the falsifiability of theism. Heh. That's quite the scientific argument. kairosfocus: Where BTW, testability thus objective warrant is a sounder approach than crying falsifiability. Potential falsification is a test. By the way, no one ever answered: Does anyone think it plausible to demonstrate the existence of a rabbit in the Cambrian? If not, why not? Zachriel
Falsifiability is good but it does not take the place of a positive test criterion. Without a way to positively test the claim the claim is useless. Intelligent Design offers both a way to falsify it and a way to make a positive case. Virgil Cain
VC, right. There is far too much wiggle room there. And I am fairly sure Z would object to the point that standing before God in judgement at the Last Day is a test of the falsifiability of theism. Where BTW, testability thus objective warrant is a sounder approach than crying falsifiability. KF kairosfocus
Actually, it is a direct response to the falsifiability of Common Descent, which claims that all organisms evolved from primitive ancestors.
Actually it is a distraction because first you need a way to test the claim before you can falsify it. Virgil Cain
kairosfocus: the Cambrian Rabbit issue is a side track. Actually, it is a direct response to the falsifiability of Common Descent, which claims that all organisms evolved from primitive ancestors. Zachriel
Box: Indeed, according to the Darwinian narrative novelty comes from mutation. All the fancy stuff of life is due to sheer dumb luck. The results of a random generator and the results of an evolutionary process are not the same — even if you repeat your claim. Eric Anderson: No-one doubts that less fit organisms are less likely to survive in their particular environment. This is a completely pedestrian observation, is something that was known long before Darwin, and we don’t need any evolutionary theory to point this out. The key insight is that differences in fitness lead to change in the hereditary composition of a population. Zachriel
Folks, the Cambrian Rabbit issue is a side track. The issue on the table (cf Darwin's Doubt) is the Cambrian explosion . . . hence the fish on the table comment above . . . and -- pace Z's attempt to brush it aside -- the linked need to account for novel body plans with massive FSCO/I on blind chance and mechanical necessity. Especially, where the need for multiple, well matched parts (not to mention self-assembly of body plans) naturally, on massive observation, leads to islands of function in seas of non-function in the config space. The attempt to suggest a vast continent of incrementally attainable function per branching tree of life is deeply challenged by the implications of config spaces, and requires a degree of empirical grounding that after 150 years is still very much absent. A good place to begin (as proteins are needed for cell types, tissues, organs and thus novel body plans), is the issue of AA-chain space and the challenge of finding relevant proteins on blind watchmaker processes. Where survival or even adaptation of the fit (often, by breaking things at molecular level . . . itself a sign of islands of function) does not properly account for origin or arrival of said fittest. Where of course the question of origin of C-chemistry, aqueous medium, protein synthesising, dna code using, self replicating, encapsulated with smart gating cell based life is the even more unexplained root of the whole matter. And, for that -- as this is OOL -- only chemistry and physics can be brought to the table; hence the massive haystack to find a needle in with comparatively vastly inadequate resources on the scope of an observed cosmos of 10^80 atoms and 13.7 BY; beyond, one is in the realm of metaphysical speculations of unseen multiverses and ALL reasonable worldview options must of right sit at the table of comparative difficulties. In short, the vera causa test has not been passed and -- Prof Moran et al kindly cf here on for first level documentation -- we are seeing institutionally dominant, philosophically driven ideology dressed up in a lab coat. The only empirically warranted, analytically plausible source of functionally specific complex organisation and/or associated information beyond 500 - 1,000 bits, is intelligently directed configuration, aka design. Thus, it is inductively justified per inference to best explanation to infer from FSCO/I to design as most plausible cause, and to hold that to overturn such, all that would be required is to pass the vera causa test for blind watchmaker claims . . . but after 150 years that seems actually less likely than in Darwin's day. But as this is maximally politically incorrect, it will be fought tooth and nail to the bitter end. Which is precisely what we are seeing. KF kairosfocus
Zachs: But you’ve been hung up on the word “creative”. Yes, novelty comes from mutation, (...)
Indeed, according to the Darwinian narrative novelty comes from mutation. All the fancy stuff of life is due to sheer dumb luck. Amazing. Amazing "theory".
Zachs: (...) but without selection, there is no adaptation.
Eric Anderson puts it like this:
No-one doubts that less fit organisms are less likely to survive in their particular environment. This is a completely pedestrian observation, is something that was known long before Darwin, and we don’t need any evolutionary theory to point this out. [my emphasis]
Box
Box: The thing is that when Zach is using “search” or “sieve” as metaphors for “natural selection”, then implicitly he assumes an abundant variety of robust organisms that are readily available. Not at all, and we'd be happy to discuss this facet of evolution. But you've been hung up on the word "creative". Yes, novelty comes from mutation, but without selection, there is no adaptation. Box: watch him go at it in post #124. Actually, that's the implication of your toy model, which you explicitly accepted. Your toy model is the equivalent a random generator. Box: When we look at the work of Douglas Axe, who in effect shows that protein evolution is impossible, another picture emerges. We know Axe's results are wrong because even random sequences can result in functional proteins. Zachriel
Carp: A sieve actually “searches” for gold in a metaphorical way.
Zach is comparing natural selection to a sieve. This is actually a very telling comparison …
Carp: A “Darwinian search” is also a metaphor.
Indeed. And it is often used in relationship to mutations — not natural selection.
Carp: No configuration of genetic “information” is searched for so the ID position that the “search space” cannot be explored is invalid.
I don’t understand what you mean here. The ID position is not that the search space (e.g. protein search space) cannot be explored, but that search space is too large to find anything within a reasonable margin.
Carp: The “search” is a metaphor.
Sure it is, and in relationship with natural selection very telling, like I said. The thing is that when Zach is using “search” or “sieve” as metaphors for “natural selection”, then implicitly he assumes an abundant variety of robust organisms that are readily available. In the Darwinian fantasy chance effortlessly creates life forms in all shape and sizes. We may be willing to forgive Darwin such naivety, but even today in the subconsciousness of Darwinists it is assumed that chance offers an endless variety of all sorts of robust organisms. Next natural selection steps in to function as a “sieve” and bring some order to the unstoppable abundance of life forms that tumble over each other — Zach is a point in case, watch him go at it in post #124. When we look at the work of Douglas Axe, who in effect shows that protein evolution is impossible, another picture emerges. Box
Do you think it plausible to find scientific evidence of a rabbit in the Cambrian?
If evolutionism is true I wouldn't expect to find evidence of a rabbit. :razz: Virgil Cain
Because the Theory of Evolution states that rabbits are descendants of a long lineages including primitive tetrapod, amniotes, mammals.
Reference please- your word is meaningless. I bet the alleged theory of evolution doesn't even mention rabbits.
However, no organism can precede its ancestor,
And yet we have fish-> tetrapods-> fish-a-pods. However, fish-a-pods are the alleged ancestor of tetrapods Virgil Cain
No one ever answered: Do you think it plausible to find scientific evidence of a rabbit in the Cambrian? If not, why not? Zachriel
mike1962: Such an event would falsify the universal notion that all things fall down and not up. But it would not necessarily falsify the general notion of things falling down in general. The Theory of Gravity posits that all masses attract. If there are exceptions, then the Theory of Gravity has to be modified, because the current formulation is falsified. That doesn't mean we can't come up with a revised theory. mike1962: And we still use Newton’s calculations even though we have General Relativity. That's true. We do so by modifying the original theory to apply only to limited domains. It's Newton's Theory of Gravity, as long as we don't move too fast or have too much mass. mike1962: why would the Cambrian rabbit necessarily and completely overthrow the blind theory of evolution generally? Because the Theory of Evolution states that rabbits are descendants of a long lineages including primitive tetrapod, amniotes, mammals. A rabbit in the Cambrian would have no plausible ancestor. mike1962: By the way, an anomoly of gravity, per your example, deals with something most consider a “law” of nature. Laws are just observed regularities. They also can have limited domains, and nearly always do. mike1962: It would seem there is a lot more wiggle room with regard to Common Descent given that a great many particulars about how life evolved are unknown. Common Descent has a historical component, and many of the specifics are subject to change. However, no organism can precede its ancestor, and all extant organisms have ancestors. Zachriel: Like a sieve is metaphorical. Box: Obviously The Internet is really amazing. You can now buy a set of three metaphors on Amazon. http://www.amazon.com/Cuisinart-Fine-Stainless-Steel-Strainers/dp/B007TUQF9O Zachriel
Carpathian: "Do you agree with the following? Whether or not a mutation is “good” or “bad” is irrelevant if the the mutation does not prevent the organism from continuing to reproduce." Sheut no! If a mutation decreases the rate of successful reproduction in the organism or its progeny, then natural selection is motivated to remove it. (If it only marginally reduces reproductive success, it may get fixed anyway, but there are vast swaths of opportunity between marginal and fatal.) Consider, for instance, that a mutation increases the chance that progeny die of disease by 10% prior to reproducing. This would significantly decrease the rate of successful reproduction, and would be weeded out in very few generations. bFast
Do you agree with the following? Whether or not a mutation is “good” or “bad” is irrelevant if the the mutation does not prevent the organism from continuing to reproduce.
No, I do not agree with that. Virgil Cain
Virgil Cain, Do you agree with the following? Whether or not a mutation is “good” or “bad” is irrelevant if the the mutation does not prevent the organism from continuing to reproduce. Carpathian
A “Darwinian search” is also a metaphor.
No, it is an oxymoron. That is another reason unguided evolution is impotent. Virgil Cain
Box:
Indeed. Obviously, a sieve “creates” gold only in a metaphorical and irrelevant way. Yet Darwinians hold otherwise.
A sieve actually "searches" for gold in a metaphorical way. A "Darwinian search" is also a metaphor. No configuration of genetic "information" is searched for so the ID position that the "search space" cannot be explored is invalid. The "search" is a metaphor. Whether or not a mutation is "good" or "bad" is irrelevant if the the mutation does not prevent the organism from continuing to reproduce. In this way, mutations can accumulate until eventually they provide an advantage to an organism or kill it off. Carpathian
Thanks to the work of Shubin, et al. with Tiktaalik and the finding of tetrapod tracks some 20 million years older, we now have the succession of fish-> tetrapods-> fish-a-pods, whereas fish-a-pods should precede tetrapods. Virgil Cain
An organism preceding any plausible ancestor would falsify the notion that organisms descend from more primitive ancestors.
How would we know that a rabbit in the Cambrian preceded any plausible ancestor? And what if the concept cannot account for rabbits, regardless of where they are found? Virgil Cain
what about the citrate experiment suggests anything other than random mutation?
The only gene, out of all the genes, that could allow for citrate transport gets duplicated and put under the control of a promoter that just happens to be active in the presence of O2. It wasn't overly expressed. The duplicated gene was expressed just enough to allow for adequate citrate transport for metabolism. Your position says "it just happened"- is that the "science" of evolutionary biology? Virgil Cain
Zach,
Box: So, existing forms are the “result” of natural selection in a metaphorical and irrelevant way only.
Zachs: Like a sieve is metaphorical.
Indeed. Obviously, a sieve "creates" gold only in a metaphorical and irrelevant way. Yet Darwinians hold otherwise. Box
Zechriels: And finding out that things on the moon don’t fall down but up would only falsify that some objects fall down. Such an event would falsify the universal notion that all things fall down and not up. But it would not necessarily falsify the general notion of things falling down in general. Anomalies exist all over the scientific world of theories without general theories being abandoned. And we still use Newton's calculations even though we have General Relativity. We’re asking you. Is it plausible? If not, why not? I asked Zechrials first: why would the Cambrian rabbit necessarily and completely overthrow the blind theory of evolution generally? Are you of the opinion that the corpus of work that you believe supports the Modern Synthesis and Common Descent in general would be completely falsified by a Cambrian rabbit? By the way, an anomoly of gravity, per your example, deals with something most consider a "law" of nature. It's nature is quite a bit more fundamental than Common Descent. Or do you consider Common Descent to be a "law" on par with gravity? It would seem there is a lot more wiggle room with regard to Common Descent given that a great many particulars about how life evolved are unknown. People "falling up" on the moon would undoubtedly generate quite a shock to our understand of nature at its fundamental level. Would a Cambrian rabbit do the same with regards to Common Descent. I doubt it, except, perhaps, with those of diehard anti-telic philosophical persuasion. mike1962
Box: So, existing forms are the “result” of natural selection in a metaphorical and irrelevant way only. Like a sieve is metaphorical. Zachriel
Zachs,
Box: In what way are existing forms the result of natural selection — please be specific?
Zach: Because only the forms that have been successful under selection exist in the population. Any new forms, therefore, have to be modifications of existing forms.
So, existing forms are the “result” of natural selection in a metaphorical and irrelevant way only. The main point here is that all forms, successful and unsuccessful alike, are already in existence before natural selection steps in. Obviously, the act of selecting does not create them. The director of the Louvre did not create the Mona Lisa, nor did she co-create the Mona Lisa. Box
mike1962: It would only falsify the notion that all organisms descend from more primitive ancestors. It would not falsify the notion that some/most organisms descend from more primitive ancestors. And finding out that things on the moon don't fall down but up would only falsify that some objects fall down. mike1962: “Plausibility” is a subjective judgement call, and varies from individual to individual. We're asking you. Is it plausible? If not, why not? Zachriel
mike1962: the rabbit doesn’t absolutely falsify blind evolution Zechriels: An organism preceding any plausible ancestor would falsify the notion that organisms descend from more primitive ancestors. It would only falsify the notion that all organisms descend from more primitive ancestors. It would not falsify the notion that some/most organisms descend from more primitive ancestors. Why must a rabbit in the Cambrian falsify the notion that some/most organisms descend from more primitive ancestors? Zechriels: Without more specifics it would be hard to say what might replace it. Why not blind evolution except for obvious cases of intelligent intervention? Zechriels: Here’s a simple test. Do you think it plausible to find scientific evidence of a rabbit in the Cambrian? If not, why not? "Plausibility" is a subjective judgement call, and varies from individual to individual. Of course, it is possible that a rabbit fossil exists in the Cambrian. If one exists, it could have been due to intelligent intervention and need not overthrow the more general theory... unless, one's philosophical views preclude intelligent intervention. A general geological "theory of scattered rocks" is not necessarily overthrown if an intelligent entity deliberately arranges some rocks in a way the theory cannot account for. (Google forensic science.) So now, since a Cambrian rabbit fossil would not necessarily and completely overthrow the theory of blind evolution with regard to the general sweep of organisms, what evidence would? mike1962
mike1962: the rabbit doesn’t absolutely falsify blind evolution An organism preceding any plausible ancestor would falsify the notion that organisms descend from more primitive ancestors. That would falsify evolutionary theory. Without more specifics it would be hard to say what might replace it. Here’s a simple test. Do you think it plausible to find scientific evidence of a rabbit in the Cambrian? If not, why not? Eric Anderson: Can you give me a concrete example of a change in a population over time that is an example of natural selection and one that isn’t an example of natural selection? Half a population is wiped out by a lava flow. The other half is not. That is not natural selection, as there is no heritable difference between the populations that is related to the cause of their demise. The climate turns dry, and plants with small seeds die out. Birds with larger beaks have an advantage cracking larger seeds, so, over time, become more common in the population. This is natural selection, a heritable difference related to the cause of the change in the population. Box: In what way are existing forms the result of natural selection — please be specific? Because only the forms that have been successful under selection exist in the population. Any new forms, therefore, have to be modifications of existing forms. You seem to be arguing semantics, not science. Zachriel
Zachs: As those existing forms are themselves the result of natural selection, (…)
Box: Nope. They are the result of mutations (chance).
Zachs: No. The only ones capable of being in the previous generation were those that had undergone selection, so it is accurate to say they are the result of natural selection.
In what way are existing forms the result of natural selection — please be specific? What exactly is the creative influence? // About the meaning of “selection”: In what way is the director of the Louvre co-creator of the Mona Lisa? Do you hold that a selection is made from already existing entities? Or do you hold that the very 'act of selecting' adds *something creative* to already existing entities? Box
Zachriel @137:
. . . natural selection refers to a specific process where heritable variations lead to differential reproduction.
Right, the variations rise from random mutations. And those organisms that die out before reproducing are certainly not passing on their variations. Maybe we're saying the same thing. Can you give me a concrete example of a change in a population over time that is an example of natural selection and one that isn't an example of natural selection? Eric Anderson
Zechriels: There is no plausible reworking of evolutionary history that includes a Cambrian rabbit. If a rabbit were found in the Cambrian, it is plausible that some people who believe (blind) evolution produced all life on earth might be persuaded to tweak their view and believe that most of life came about via (blind) evolution, but that intelligent intervention occurred in the case of the Cambrian rabbit. The TOE would remain largely intact. So you see, the rabbit doesn't absolutely falsify blind evolution. It only falsifies a universal application or interpretation of it. So then, what evidence could completely falsify the theory of (blind) evolution? mike1962
No. Evolutionary biology is a science. Many evolutionary biologists are religious, and I'm sure some think the world was set up to allow evolution by some creator. What you're taking about is a (more or less US-specific) culutre war in which some scienctific fields (evolution, climate..) are used a proxies. wd400
wd400 @91: Apologies for jumping in, as your question was not directed at me. Just a reminder: Intelligent design does not have any problem with the idea of natural development and even, in appropriately supported cases, of biological change via purely natural processes, such as the Neo-Darwinian random mutations. The intelligent design paradigm does not claim design at every turn and in every instance; only in those cases in which it is supported. In contrast, materialistic evolutionary theory is an all-or-nothing, no-holds-barred, take-no-prisoners approach that cannot admit to even a single instance of intelligent intervention in the history of life on Earth. This is why such strenuous efforts are put forward to oppose even the hint of design at every turn. No exceptions are allowed, or the materialistic narrative crumbles. Eric Anderson
I haven’t looked into the citrate question closely, but it appears it might be an example of non-random genetic change (shhh! don’t tell wd400).
The first clause certainly seems to be true -- what about the citrate experiment suggests anything other than random mutation? wd400
Bob O'H @77:
You’re written more than one post about this, but still haven’t understood that evolution is just heritable change in a population. You accuse evolutionary biologists of being confused, but in reality, it’s you who are.
I take it then, that you have no issue with the idea that life was initially created by an intelligent being? And you agree that most organisms were also intelligently designed? And perhaps you also would hold to the idea that most significant organismal variation is pre-programmed or guided, rather than random? I didn't think so. So "evolution" is not just "heritable change" for you, is it. You have fallen squarely within the "Conflate different concepts in the same word" fallacy box. Not to worry; you have lots of company. Eric Anderson
Eric Anderson: I haven’t looked into the citrate question closely, but it appears it might be an example of non-random genetic change (shhh! don’t tell wd400). The mutations fit a random distribution. Zachriel
Box: They are the result of mutations (chance). Consider rolling two dice. You keep rolling until you get snake eyes. Sure, chance is involved, but so is selection. Zachriel
groovamos @74: Good points. We can, without breaking a sweat, think of a dozen "niches" that aren't occupied. Why not? Well, because they just happen to have not been occupied. And why did other niches get occupied? Well, they just happen to have been the ones that got occupied. There is no explanatory power here. This is the sum and substance of the theory: Stuff Happens Eric Anderson
Zachriel: I haven't looked into the citrate question closely, but it appears it might be an example of non-random genetic change (shhh! don't tell wd400). That is the case with the E. coli lactose experiments. Eric Anderson
Eric Anderson: There is no substantive difference between the following two phrases as an explanation for how organisms got to where they are today: “random mutations filtered by natural selection” and “random mutations, some of which died off” That is not correct. There are many reasons why an organism may die off. However, natural selection refers to a specific process where heritable variations lead to differential reproduction. Zachriel
Box: Nope. They are the result of mutations (chance). No. The only ones capable of being in the previous generation were those that had undergone selection, so it is accurate to say they are the result of natural selection. Zachriel
Box @47 and 52: Good points and well said. There is no substantive difference between the following two phrases as an explanation for how organisms got to where they are today: "random mutations filtered by natural selection" and "random mutations, some of which died off" ----- But the first phrase sure sounds more believable. Eric Anderson
Zachs: However, mutation does result in novel variations, variations that are closely related to existing forms.
Yes.
Zachs: As those existing forms are themselves the result of natural selection, (…)
Nope. They are the result of mutations (chance).
Zachs: (…) the result is progressive adaptation.
A series of severe winters eliminates not so wooly sheep. Sure, as a consequence only the “adapted” wooly sheep survive. However natural selection did not create them. At best it can be said that natural selection provided resources to them (your positive “selection”) and thus didn’t pose a hindrance to them. The South Pole climate doesn’t create penguins nor nematodes (roundworms), but doesn’t pose a hindrance to them.
Zachs: In any case, did you have a point beyond semantics?
Yes, here goes again: “natural selection” is not creative and moreover a hindrance to evolution, which implies that your position is left with less than chance alone to explain all the fancy stuff we see in life. Box
Box: that’s what I’ve been arguing all along: chance comes up with a variety of robust organisms (creative) and next NS steps in eliminating stuff (not creative). The problem is that creative is being used by others on this thread in a different manner. Generally, most people would not consider a random number generator to be creative in the usual sense of the word. However, mutation does result in novel variations, variations that are closely related to existing forms. As those existing forms are themselves the result of natural selection, the result is progressive adaptation. As pointed out above, we might see the nose of a species grow longer over generations. In any case, did you have a point beyond semantics? Zachriel
Z, Yes, that's what I've been arguing all along: chance comes up with a variety of robust organisms (creative) and next NS steps in eliminating stuff (not creative). Box
Box: If being creative doesn’t require teleology, then sure. That's not how most people use the term, but fair enough. Consequently, random biological variation is also 'creative'. It certainly adds novel information to the population. Zachriel
Zachs: So, we have a random letter generator. Within that sequence of letters, we have the works of William Shakespeare. Is the random letter generator creative?
If being creative doesn't require teleology, then sure. Why are you asking? Box
Within that sequence of letters, we have the works of William Shakespeare.
Cuz you say so? Really? That isn't an argument. Who made the random letter generator? Does it output ALL possible letters from every language? Virgil Cain
Box, So, we have a random letter generator. Within that sequence of letters, we have the works of William Shakespeare. Is the random letter generator creative? It would seem to be, per your argument. Zachriel
Zachs: Let’s consider your thought experiment, where there is no selection, and no limitation of resources. This is rather difficult to envision actually, as you will soon run out of room.
Obviously, room is also a resource.
Zachs: The ooze predominates. That’s your toy model.
Indeed. And what of it? I’m not arguing that blind chance comes up with a majority of pretty creatures. In fact I don’t believe that chance can create one single creature. The toy model is part of my analysis of the Darwinian narrative: Given a replicator, there is chance that comes up with all sorts of robust creatures. Next there is an utterly uncreative elimination process based on lack of resources; called “natural selection”. Now, Darwin has fooled many of us into believing that lack of resources is somehow creative. He made many of us believe that e.g. a series of severe winters is a creative force that “selects” and “preserves”, while all it does is eliminate things. Box
Box, So, we have a random letter generator. Within that sequence of letters, we have the works of William Shakespeare. Is the random letter generator creative? Zachriel
Natural selection alone is not creative. It requires both variation and selection.
LoL! The first step of natural selection is in producing the variation. Zachriel doesn't even understand the concept it is trying to defend. Virgil Cain
Box: Now, tell me, what exactly is the creative part of “availability of resources”? Natural selection alone is not creative. It requires both variation and selection. Let's consider your thought experiment, where there is no selection, and no limitation of resources. This is rather difficult to envision actually, as you will soon run out of room. But let's go with it. Every organism that could ever exist; no matter how meager it was at acquiring resources so that it would starve in what we call nature, no matter how ugly it was so that it would never mate in the real world; would continue to exist and produce offspring at the same rate as every other creature. The far vast majority of such creatures would be blobs of protoplasm with no locomotion, because there's no need for legs to find resources, food must appear somehow someway. And plants would have no need to seek the light, apparently, all the light they need would come from within somehow someway. And predators wouldn't have to hunt, which is a good thing, because prey wouldn't have to run away. Most of the protoplasm would probably just ooze and divide, but for those with legs and teeth and sex organs, presumably they wouldn't have to have sex, because that's a resource too. So this tiny tiny fraction of organisms would have sex organs they didn't need, but who cares — resources are free! And the world would be filled with mountains of protoplasm thousands of miles thick, but no need to develop skeletons to avoid being crushed because there's no selection, so no need to climb to the top. Bacteria could divide without end, because they wouldn't have to seek resources. No one would get sick, though, because that's selection, so there's that. There would be no limit on size, of course. Nor on rates of reproduction. So the thousands of miles thick protoplasm would become millions and millions of miles thick. There's no limit when there's no limit to resources! Now, a tiny percentage of those creatures would, indeed, have what we would consider highly adaptive traits, but they would not predominate. If you found one with teeth, it probably wouldn't have legs or fins. The vast majority would be adaptive traits attached to more ooze, because why not! So only an infinitesimal of an infinitesimal would be what we would recognize as an adapted organism. The ooze predominates. That's your toy model. Zachriel
Zachs: Selection can be positive or negative. You sound like a medieval philosopher denouncing negative numbers.
In my understanding, the availability of resources is the default position. However, I’m willing to accommodate your idea that this constitutes “positive selection”. In this line of thought “negative selection” is the consequence of unavailability of resources. Now, tell me, what exactly is the creative part of “availability of resources”? How is the availability of e.g. water creating anything? Isn’t it so that chance — all on its own — has to come up with creatures that are suitable for water? All we can say is that the availability of water doesn’t pose a hindrance for life to develop in directions that are suitable for water.
Zachs:
Box: All creativity is enclosed in the domain of chance.
No, adaptation requires both variation and selection.
Even if I would allow you to equate “not posing a hindrance” with “selecting”, then it would not be a creative process. Selecting is not creating. John C. Lennox: “Indeed the very word ‘selection’ ought to alert our attention to this: selection is made from already existing entities. This is an exceedingly important point because the words ‘natural selection’ are often used as if they were describing a creative process, for instance, by capitalizing their initial letters. This is highly misleading. Box
Do you think it plausible to find scientific evidence of a rabbit in the Cambrian?
Evolutionary history cannot explain the existence of rabbits. So you lose, again, as usual.
You sound like a medieval philosopher denouncing negative numbers.
You sound like an infant stuck in fantasyland. Virgil Cain
bpragmatic: What is the empirically derived demonstrations that show “plausible historical workings” of NDE history that you can claim gives NDE conjecture any kind of real “scientific” standing. Here's a simple test. Do you think it plausible to find scientific evidence of a rabbit in the Cambrian? If not, why not? Box: Sure we can, that is, if “natural selection” is properly understood as “natural elimination.” Selection can be positive or negative. You sound like a medieval philosopher denouncing negative numbers. Box: All creativity is enclosed in the domain of chance. No, adaptation requires both variation and selection. Zachriel
Zach: Actually, we can now directly observe natural selection (..)
Sure we can, that is, if "natural selection" is properly understood as "natural elimination." What we do not see is "natural elimination" creating anything. All creativity is enclosed in the domain of chance. Box
There is no plausible reworking of evolutionary history that includes a Cambrian rabbit.
Evolutionary history cannot explain the existence of rabbits. So you lose, again, as usual. Virgil Cain
Actually, we can now directly observe natural selection
No, we cannot observe natural selection until we have an objective way of determining if the genetic variation was an accident, error or mistake. Your continued equivocation is duly noted. Virgil Cain
Zachriel: "There is no plausible reworking of evolutionary history that includes a Cambrian rabbit." Plausible reworking of evolutionary history? What is the empirically derived demonstrations that show "plausible historical workings" of NDE history that you can claim gives NDE conjecture any kind of real "scientific" standing. Legitimately? You have a lot to show before you can get by with making that proclamation. Show your work in relevant mathematical equations and physical chemical relationships. You fool. bpragmatic
EugeneS: whereas natural selection almost never works, with the exception of corner cases of perhaps not more than one or two selective factors present. Actually, we can now directly observe natural selection, and rates of natural selection are often measured in the thousands of darwins. Zachriel
groovamos: Gosh this is astounding science, nothing like proof required, just “resources” are “available”, how stupid of me not to see it {snip balance of handwaving} Are you saying the oceans do not have more resources than freshwater streams? EugeneS: if they find a rabbit in the Cambrian, they will just adjust their evolutionary understanding. There is no plausible reworking of evolutionary history that includes a Cambrian rabbit. Let us know when you find one, or think about why you think the effort would be futile. Box: How about finding a vertebrate fish in the lower Cambrian without any plausible ancestor? First, you will notice it's not a rabbit. Second, Metaspriggina lacks vertebrae, not to mention fins. It's a transitional between celphalochordates and vertebrates. Zachriel
Zachriel: A rabbit in the Cambrian would precede any plausible ancestor, so would falsify evolution.
How about finding a vertebrate fish in the lower Cambrian without any plausible ancestor? Notochord, a pair of prominent camera-type eyes, paired nasal sacs, possible cranium and arcualia, W-shaped myomeres, a post-anal tail, gill bars, possible extra-branchial cartilage, blood vessels, esophagus, gut, possible heart, liver. In other words, a central nervous system, a digestive system, a circulatory system, an excretory system, a muscular system, a locomotor system, a visual system, an olfactory system, and the ability to use all these systems in an integrated way. Would that pose a problem to the Darwinian narrative? Or not so much? Box
Virgil Cain, "It’s called artificial selection." Exactly. They posit evolution has no notion of purpose. Okay. Now, what "If it improves your hand, you keep it" really means is there is some way of (A) measuring and (B) controlling the values of a (not necessarily explicit) objective function. In other words, active artificial telic selection (i.e. genuine selection) is orders of magnitude more powerful than passive natural non-telic elimination. That is why artificial selection and Genetic Algorithms based on it work whereas natural selection almost never works, with the exception of corner cases of perhaps not more than one or two selective factors present. Zachriel does not understand it. EugeneS
Zachriel:
A rabbit in the Cambrian would precede any plausible ancestor, so would falsify evolution.
That's simply not the case. How can the existence of a rabbit in the Cambrian falsify a concept that cannot explain the existence of rabbits? Do tell or stuff a sock in it. Virgil Cain
Zachriel:
Think of it this way. You have five cards. You draw one random card from the deck to replace a random card in your hand. If it improves your hand, you keep it. If it doesn’t, you keep your original five cards.
It's called artificial selection. Virgil Cain
No Zachriel, It is trivially the case: if they find a rabbit in the Cambrian, they will just adjust their evolutionary understanding. The rabbit lineage could just be very successful to have developed quicker than any other lineage and then lots of other lineages caught up with it in the course of evolution while rabbits got into an extremely long stasis. Evolution is not a theory (at least not any more). Rather it is an explanatory mode: it is not that everything is explained in light of evolution because evolution is true (for there is nothing to check its worth with experimentally). Rather, everything is interpreted in light of evolution because there is no other metaphysical option left that would be acceptable for evolutionists. EugeneS
Zachriel: The tendency is due to available resources. In the case of salmon, they spawn in freshwater streams to avoid predation. Gosh this is astounding science, nothing like proof required, just "resources" are "available", how stupid of me not to see it hee hee. Hatchlings with few or no predators 'cause just shut up and go along to get along. Survival guaranteed by programmed death after a single reproductive cycle. So impressed are we. The existence of this creature fully "explained". NO mystery here. NO random mutation needing explanation at the molecular level. Them molecules just have to have "available" "resources" and poof there's your animal. What a science groovamos
Mapou: The term “available mutations” destroys the “random” claim of Darwinists. Think of it this way. You have five cards. You draw one random card from the deck to replace a random card in your hand. If it improves your hand, you keep it. If it doesn't, you keep your original five cards. It's called a random draw. Zachriel
The term "available mutations" destroys the "random" claim of Darwinists. Get with it, Croteau. Mapou
EugeneS: Even if they find a rabbit in the Cambrian, that will surely be construed as proof of evolution. That is simply not the case. A rabbit in the Cambrian would precede any plausible ancestor, so would falsify evolution. Zachriel
Zachriel, You are conflating facts with their interpretation. No matter what the fossil record shows, TOE triumphs because it is not falsifiable. Even if they find a rabbit in the Cambrian, that will surely be construed as proof of evolution. As there are always random mutations available, which will do the trick. Zachriel, anything you can think of has a probability > 0. BTW, your main challenge is provide a naturalistic explanation for the emergence of logic out of purely physical interactions between particles of matter. Once such an explanation is on the table, we can seriously consider the RNA-world hypothesis. EugeneS
Mapou: Point mutations do not change the size of the search space which is 4^ 4 million. It doesn't matter as long as there are beneficial mutations available. Many experiments have shown that such mutations are available, including the E. coli long-term evolution experiment. http://myxo.css.msu.edu/ecoli/ Zachriel
Point mutations do not change the size of the search space which is 4^ 4 million. That is the point. Wipe that lie off your chin, Croteau. Mapou
Mapou: How does that make random mutations not random? A single point mutation IS a mutation. A random base changing to another random base is what is meant by a random mutation. Zachriel
Zachriel is either one of the most dishonest person I know or he's suffering from some type of neurological disorder. But then again, the same could be said of all loudmouth atheists like Jerry Coyne, PZ Myers and all the others. Mapou
What isn't a lie is irrelevant. What isn't irrelevant is an equivocation. What isn't an equivocation is a strawman. Such is the life of Zachriel. Virgil Cain
Virgil Cain @98, Glad you caught Zachriel's blatant lie. Everything that comes out of Zachriel's mouth is a lie. His name is a lie and his reference to himself as a "we" is a lie. His father is the father of lies. Mapou
In the Lenski Experiment, every single base was mutated at least once.
And on Tuesday there is a blue light special! Virgil Cain
Zachriel, the liar for Darwin:
Mapou: By some unknown magic, “random mutations” know which base pairs are available for mutation. In the Lenski Experiment, every single base was mutated at least once.
You're stupid of something? How does that make random mutations not random? This only looks at 4 million base pairs. This is a drop in the ocean compared to the actual search space: 4^ 4 million. When are you going to grow a pair of gonads, Zachriel? Why are you people so gutless? Mapou
Mapou: By some unknown magic, “random mutations” know which base pairs are available for mutation. In the Lenski Experiment, every single base was mutated at least once. Zachriel
Zachriels,
Zach: What you envision is that absent selection and with unlimited resources, the initial standard distribution would spread until every possible nose occurs, including no nose at all!
Sure. // Disclaimer: obviously I reject this part of the Darwinian narrative, which assumes that robust replicators are easy to find and readily available.
Zach: In the real world, they might starve, but in your toy universe, they continue to contribute equally to the population.
Indeed, absent “natural selection” all robust organisms continue to exist.
Zach: That’s not how it works, of course.
Indeed, unfortunately for evolution resources are often scarce, which is constitutive of natural selection.
Frank K. Salter: According to Ernst Mayer, one of the most influential advocates of the modern “synthesis”, evolutionary theory proceeds from the assumption of a general scarcity of resources, and the ensuing competition of individuals over access to these resources.
Obviously scarcity of resources is a bad thing for creativity. What else can it be? Darwin’s greatest accomplishment is making people believe that e.g. a long period of drought is a creative force that “selects” and “preserves”, while all it does is eliminate things.
(…) it has been estimated that 99.9% of all species that have ever lived on Earth are now extinct.
All I can say is, natural selection elimination is obviously a hindrance to pure chance; so much the worse for evolution and its alleged creative power.
Zach: Rather we see snapshots over time of increasingly long noses.
The ones with long noses are the ones that somehow got away; despite their long noses unnoticed by and below the radar of natural “selection”. Natural selection does not create long noses. It doesn't even "select" them. Natural selection is in the non-creative elimination business. // --
Zach: By the way, Haeckel provided many drawings of differentiated cells, so we would like to see a primary source for the Haeckel quote.
John Farley, ‘The Spontaneous Generation Controversy from Descartes to Oparin’ (Johns Hopkins University Press, 1979), (p. 73). Here an interesting article on how clueless Darwin and his contemporaries actually were Box
Here it is, folks, from the horse's mouth. Zachriel finally admits that mutations are not random:
Mapou: E. coli has over 5000 genes and over 4 million base pairs. This means that the search space for e. coli is 4 ^ 4 million. The evolution of citrate utilization didn’t require sampling 4 ^ 4 million bases, but just the available single point mutations and duplication of existing segments.
It could not be clearer than this. By some unknown magic, "random mutations" know which base pairs are available for mutation. Darwinism is an evil cult. Mapou
wd400- How would you use undirected evolution to investigate the behavior? Please be specific. Virgil Cain
Zachriel:
the Theory of Evolution would be falsified by showing that there is no fossil succession of forms.
Unfortunately it isn't yours to say, Zachriel. And seeing that you cannot reference this alleged theory of evolution you should just be quiet about it.
Three nodes does not provide substantial evidence of a tree structure. However, thousands of nodes can and do.
They can and do form many different patterns.
We *observe* that genetic change is caused by “RV+NS”.
Your imagination is not an observation. Try again
See Robertson & Joyce, Highly Efficient Self-Replicating RNA Enzymes, Chemistry & Biology 2014.
Intelligently Designed RNAs in a designed environment and only one bond was catalyzed. And it didn't demonstrate Darwinian evolution. Virgil Cain
groovamos, I'm not sure you saw my question, so here it is again. If you aim to replace evolutionary biology with some ID/creationist alternative then how would that alternative generate and test hypotheses that might explain diadromy? I can think of a number of ways to investigate this behavior within evolutionary biology, so how does your replacement help us? wd400
EugeneS: The theory of evolution is not falsifiable. It is an explanatory mode as anything can be interpreted in light of the postulates of evolution. As already mentioned, the Theory of Evolution would be falsified by showing that there is no fossil succession of forms. EugeneS: Now, the big problem is that it does not question nor can falsify postulate 1. Whatever your measurements, 1 is not falsified. Bingo! Theory of evolution is always true. Three nodes does not provide substantial evidence of a tree structure. However, thousands of nodes can and do. EugeneS: The same is with “genetic change is caused by RV+NS”. This is not falsifiable either as any biological effect could be attributed to chance. It is just a postulate of TOE. We *observe* that genetic change is caused by "RV+NS". We infer, from the succession of fossils, that the changes are largely incremental. It's interesting to note that Darwin couldn't observe microevolution, but inferred microevolution from the evidence for macroevolution. EugeneS: We do not know such thing. See Robertson & Joyce, Highly Efficient Self-Replicating RNA Enzymes, Chemistry & Biology 2014. Zachriel
Genetic accidents pulling off the citrate change is like saying a blind and lame person could pull of the triple lindy Virgil Cain
Zachriel, "We now know that a molecule can act as messenger and enzyme, memory and processor." We do not know such thing. It is all self-referential. It does not mean anything. To say something "can act like" there must be a protocol describing what "to act like" really means. Logic must causally precede physicality, if a physical material system is to do anything meaningful, not the other way around! You still need to resolve the issue of having to do symbolic processing. Whether it is done in one molecule or in more than one, does not change anything. You need to demonstrate naturalistically how control can arise from the state of no control present. The RNA-world complicates things as it says one thing was responsible for two functions. That, in my estimation, is even more complicated than two separate things each doing their individual things. And, of course, the RNA-world does not get rid of the necessity of a protocol. Until such time as you tackle the problem of naturalistically explaining how symbolic representations arose, you don't have a solution. The RNA-world already assumes there is symbolic processing as it uses itself as a memory and as an enzyme. It does not solve the problem. EugeneS
Zachriel, You are jumping to conclusions and I think you are confused about what falsifiability means. The theory of evolution is not falsifiable. It is an explanatory mode as anything can be interpreted in light of the postulates of evolution. It has to generate a hypothesis that is testable regardless of what it says and independently of it. TOE has no such hypotheses. Consider an example with a variant of TOE based on common descent. 1. Postulate: common descent. 2. Prediction: closer relatives have more similar genomes (genomes with higher homology) than more distant relatives have. 3. Test: humans and chimps have more similar genomes than humans and mice. 4. Consequently, humans are closer relatives of chimps than they are of mice. For argument's sake, suppose you have a new more accurate measurement which is contrary to 3. As a result, your consequence 4 will change accordingly. That's all. Now, the big problem is that it does not question nor can falsify postulate 1. Whatever your measurements, 1 is not falsified. Bingo! Theory of evolution is always true. The same is with "genetic change is caused by RV+NS". This is not falsifiable either as any biological effect could be attributed to chance. It is just a postulate of TOE. It does not generate any interesting insights into how things really are designed in the organism. All advances of biology are made contrary to the sterile scientific agenda of TOE as indeed in the living kingdom everything is meaningfully designed and can be reverse-engineered back to first principles. One indicator is the success of bionics and cybernetics. Biology is all about control, which is an artifact and consequence of decision making and forethought. TOE is not a falsifiable theory. It would be falsifiable if there was some additional attribute or property as a consequence of TOE that could be measured such that, as a result, common descent or RV+NS could be verified or falsified independently of the logic of TOE. Irrespective of that, you still have to resolve the naturalistic conundrum of chicken and egg: the program and processor complex. There is no naturalistic way out of it. Your or my ignorance cannot change reality... EugeneS
The Theory of Evolution is falsifiable,...
The theory of evolution doesn't exist so can we consider it falsified? Why do evos talk about the theory of evolution as if it is a real entity and yet refuse to reference it so we can all read what it really says? Virgil Cain
The evolution of citrate utilization didn’t require sampling 4 ^ 4 million bases, but just the available single point mutations and duplication of existing segments.
Right, the ONLY gene that produced the REQUIRED protein product to transport citrate through the membrane was duplicated and intentionally put under the control of an existing promoter that allowed the gene to be expressed under aerobic conditions. Only a fool would consider that to be an accident, error or mistake. Enter evolutionists... Virgil Cain
Dr JDD: Please can you provide the evidence that the citrate “mutation” was not deleterious in any way from the wt as per my question above? Thought this was answered.
Z: We know the genetic mechanism involved, and it is not a degradation of an existing system, but a new pathway. Wild E. coli {edited for clarity} would probably be more fit in the wild than any strain in the experiment, as the experimental bacteria have evolved to adapt to the laboratory environment. Furthermore, the citrate strain of E. coli would probably be outcompeted in the wild by other species that are more adapted to the citrate environment. As for relative fitness, it would depend on the aerobic environment. If the primary food source is citrate, then the strain that can utilize citrate would be fitter. Lacking citrate, it would be at a disadvantage because of the energy costs to maintain the pathway.
You might want to read Blount et al., Genomic analysis of a key innovation in an experimental Escherichia coli population, Nature 2012. They discuss how fitness increased rapidly at first, then increased more slowly over time. Then there was a sudden burst in fitness when citrate utilization evolved. The strain also had a significant increase in the accumulation of mutations. http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v489/n7417/images_article/nature11514-f1.2.jpg Zachriel
groovamos: An organism tends to be, just because of the possibility to be? The tendency is due to available resources. In the case of salmon, they spawn in freshwater streams to avoid predation. groovamos: The issue is how did all the kinks get worked out of reproductive function at spawning by “natural selection” when the animal’s demise is guaranteed during the trial and error process of natural selection. The ancestors of salmon didn't die after reproduction, but returned to the oceans. There's a tradeoff between saving enough energy for the return trip, and providing as much energy as possible for the eggs. Spawning migrations allow organisms to take advantage of environmental heterogeneities. EugeneS: Evolutionism is unfalsifiable. The Theory of Evolution is falsifiable, and has been repeatedly modified in the light of evidence. The foundations are still standing because they are consistent with the evidence. If, for instance, the fossil record didn't show a succession of forms, then that foundation would be seriously undermined. EugeneS: Explanations show the true merit of a theory. A good theory generates testable hypotheses. A great theory, such as the Theory of Evolution, creates entire new fields of study. EugeneS: nothing will occur if the condition does not hold. You're making some sort of analogy, but have no idea what it means. EugeneS: And, again, the major issue is how to explain the existence of a program together with a processor for it. We now know that a molecule can act as messenger and enzyme, memory and processor. Zachriel
Mapou: E. coli has over 5000 genes and over 4 million base pairs. This means that the search space for e. coli is 4 ^ 4 million. The evolution of citrate utilization didn't require sampling 4 ^ 4 million bases, but just the available single point mutations and duplication of existing segments. This the process posited to generally account for incremental adaptation. Box: Why? Why a functional replicator at all? It seems to be a natural result of ribonucleotide chemistry, but no one has a complete model of abiogenesis, so no one knows. Box: "The problem of form in the organism — how does a single cell (zygote) reliably develop to maturity 'according to its own kind'" Evolutionary development has matured considerably, and there are no processes that are inconsistent either with chemistry or with evolution. Box: The whole Darwinian idea is based on the assumption that robust replicators in all shapes and sizes are easy to find and readily available. The history of common descent shows that incremental pathways exist for most of that history. Artificial replicators show that there are all shapes and sizes that are subject to incremental improvement. As no one has a complete model of abiogenesis, there's no way to test it directly. Box: Little has changed since the days of Darwin and Haeckel who held that a cell is a “simple little lump of albuminous combination of carbon,” not much different from a piece of microscopic Jell-O. Seriously? You must know that's not true. You really think we know no more than Darwin concerning the workings of the cell? By the way, Haeckel provided many drawings of differentiated cells, so we would like to see a primary source for the Haeckel quote. Box: The ability to acquire resources is just one thing that can provide an escape from the grim reaper a.k.a. “natural selection”, another can be thick fur, or having the correct size, color or whatever. Bottom line is that there is no process of adaptation, there is only a series of escapes. You must never have been to a high school dance. It turns out that organisms have a wide variety of mechanisms to ensure their successful reproduction. Those that are more successful will tend to leave more offspring. Box: By “variation” you simply mean chance. Selection Elimination does not create multi-tasking long noses, chance does. Chance provides a range of noses; some short, some long. They typically form a standard distribution around the mean. If a longer nose has an advantage, perhaps for rooting around for tubers, then the next generation will tend to have longer noses. The mean will increase, while the distribution will tend to be skewed with a lower standard distribution. As new variations are introduced into the gene pool, the variations will again form a standard distribution, but with a higher mean, and with a wider standard distribution. If there is continued selection pressure, the mean will continue to increase, while there will be fewer and fewer with short noses. Eventually, the entire population will have extended proboscides. If we snapshot the population, we will see the nose grow. What you envision is that absent selection and with unlimited resources, the initial standard distribution would spread until every possible nose occurs, including no nose at all! In the real world, they might starve, but in your toy universe, they continue to contribute equally to the population. That's not how it works, of course. Rather we see snapshots over time of increasingly long noses. Zachriel
“Natural selection” is NOT creative.
“Colin Patterson’s description highlights something very easily overlooked—the fact that natural selection is not creative. As he says, it is a ‘weeding out process’ that leaves the stronger progeny. The stronger progeny must be already there: it is not produced by natural selection. Indeed the very word ‘selection’ ought to alert our attention to this: selection is made from already existing entities. This is an exceedingly important point because the words ‘natural selection’ are often used as if they were describing a creative process, for instance, by capitalizing their initial letters. This is highly misleading (…)” [John C. Lennox, ‘God’s Undertaker: Has Science Buried God?’, p.102]
If the universe is for reasons of sheer dumb luck committed ultimately to a state of cosmic listlessness, it is also by sheer dumb luck that life first emerged on earth, the chemicals in the pre-biotic seas or soup illuminated and then invigorated by a fateful flash of lightning. It is again by sheer dumb luck that the first self-reproducing systems were created. The dense and ropy chains of RNA -- they were created by sheer dumb luck, and sheer dumb luck drove the primitive chemicals of life to form a living cell. It is sheer dumb luck that alters the genetic message so that, from infernal nonsense, meaning for a moment emerges; and sheer dumb luck again that endows life with its opportunities, the space of possibilities over which natural selection plays, sheer dumb luck creating the mammalian eye and the marsupial pouch, sheer dumb luck again endowing the elephant's sensitive nose with nerves and the orchid's translucent petal with blush. Amazing. Sheer dumb luck. [Berlinski, ‘Deniable Darwin’]
Box
Zachriel, You are constantly using your paradigm without questioning it. Evolutionism is unfalsifiable. Whatever happens, evolution can explain it. It is the quality of explanations, that is the issue. Explanations show the true merit of a theory. As regards metabolyzing citrate: this metabolic ability was not found by E.coli by happenstance. It was utilized under appropriate conditions only because this kind of change had already been accounted for in the genome. These conditions were accounted for and built in as a behaviour pattern in response to the environmental stimuli. If in your program you have the following block: IF condition THEN action1 ELSE action2 action2 will be exectuted by the processor if the condition does not hold. If, however, what you have is only IF condition THEN action1 nothing will occur if the condition does not hold. Nothing, Zachriel. And, again, the major issue is how to explain the existence of a program together with a processor for it. EugeneS
Bob O'H:
You’re written more than one post about this, but still haven’t understood that evolution is just heritable change in a population.
Evolutionism claims the heritable changes are all happenstance events. That is what is being disputed. Virgil Cain
At Zachriel admits that it is only our ignorance tat says all mutations are random/ happenstance. Virgil Cain
Eric Anderson @ 71 -
It is unfortunately all too common for individuals to proceed from meager evidence (often just an observation of change in a population) to the implicit (and occasionally expressly stated) claim that “evolution” in general is true.
You're written more than one post about this, but still haven't understood that evolution is just heritable change in a population. You accuse evolutionary biologists of being confused, but in reality, it's you who are. Now, if you want to make the argument that we can't infer evolutionary patterns such as speciation and evolution of novelty from observed changes in standing variation, then go ahead. We'll agree with you, and point to other sources of evidence for these phenomena. But please don't confuse your confusion for other peoples'. Bob O'H
Zachriel The issue for evolution isn’t survival, but reproduction. I'm well aware of the simplistic view on my part of the spawning getting the "kinks worked out". But you have a serious limitation with this extremely complex animal that require the spawning to be successful and to have evolved simultaneously with all of the navigational apparatus. Complicated by the required upstream struggle and inescapable demise of each adult at the first reproduction. The larger point is that science will never know in a general sense how the evolution of this species progressed so to say the theory fits the evidence is a hopeless claim. groovamos
mike1962: Zachriels: once you have a functional replicator, then…”. Box: Why a functional replicator at all? And why don’t they fall apart? It reminds me of the old Steve Martin gag, How You Can Be a Millionaire and Not Pay Any Taxes… “First, get a million dollars. Now,…”
Your comparison is excellent; however it doesn’t fully capture the bizarreness of Darwinian assumptions. Maybe something like this: How You Can Be a Millionaire at All Times No Matter How Much You Spent … “First, get a million dollars which number remains constant no matter how much you take from it. Now, …” Yes, I know … too bizarre to be funny. Box
Zachriel: Organisms will tend to invade available niches. This is what you call 'science'? An organism tends to be, just because of the possibility to be? Because it can? Its just so easy to call it a "niche", that "niche" analogy so useful for the visualization of everything just sort of falling into place - you know what niches are like. Kinda like grooves that things can fall into. And we're supposed to just shut up and take it? Sorry the "niche" is intellectual laziness. Zachriel The issue for evolution isn’t survival, but reproduction. The issue is how did all the kinks get worked out of reproductive function at spawning by "natural selection" when the animal's demise is guaranteed during the trial and error process of natural selection. The magic of Darwinian Evolution was in this animal, required to get all of the mechanisms of the freshwater spawning correct on this first "try" and it came through with flying colors? Trillions of "random mutations" happened at once? Because really, in this situation, no animal is available to do it again. See you guys cannot get specific on exactly how it happened to evolve, enumerating the mutations. And then you come on here and say your explanation fits the evidence when there is really no explanation. It would help a little if you could tell us if the ancestors of this fish were saltwater or freshwater, can you do that? groovamos
Zachriel: Please can you provide the evidence that the citrate "mutation" was not deleterious in any way from the wt as per my question above? I am genuinely interested to know what was done to demonstrate this. Thanks. Dr JDD
Popperian @28-30: Thank you for your well-crafted comment and the detailed thoughts. Would that all proponents of evolutionary theory were as thoughtful. Unfortunately, I'm just doing a quick drive-through tonight and don't have time to properly reply with the detail you deserve (I'm even toying with elevating your comments and my reply to a new head post, but if history is any guide, I probably won't get to that). Let me in the interim just make sure you are aware of a couple of items (since your comment seemed to potentially hint otherwise): (i) I am talking precisely about the evidence, the observable evidence we have in front of us. It is not a question of whether there is "evidence" in the sense of observations. There are mounds of this kind of evidence, which can colloquially be called "facts." The issue is how those facts are interpreted. I think you share the same view, at least in general approach. (ii) I have not (at least to my memory) ever tried to support intelligent design or to argue against evolution by referring to the Bible or some religious text. I understand that is important to some people and I try to be respectful of that. But I am more interested in what the concrete, observable facts are, rather than some religious text (or worse, someone's questionable interpretation of that text). Again, I think we are largely on the same page there. (iii) The question of whether intelligent causes exist in the universe (as opposed to only the brute interaction of matter and energy) is important here. Again, probably deserves more discussion another time. Ruling out such causes a priori is not a hallmark of good "science" and certainly not a hallmark of a sincere effort to find the truth. Well, more than I had planned to say right now anyway. Hopefully I can add a few additional thoughts later. Eric Anderson
Seversky @21:
I can certainly try but, first, I would like you to confirm that you believe that what you wrote in the OP is a fair and honest summary of current evolutionary thought.
Fair enough. Just make sure you carefully notice my caveats. I have never said that every evolutionist everywhere is illogical; I have never said that no evolutionist has tried to support her position in a rational way; I have never said that every evolutionist is as careless in their thinking as so many are; I have never said that there aren't a myriad of writings and musings and suggestions and claims that exist in the literature, most of which have no relevance to the point at issue. What I am saying, and will stand by, is that it is unfortunately all too common for those steeped in the Darwinian tradition to believe that they see evidence confirming "evolution" all around them. It is unfortunately all too common for individuals to proceed from meager evidence (often just an observation of change in a population) to the implicit (and occasionally expressly stated) claim that "evolution" in general is true. Yes, this is all too common and suffers from the flaws I have outlined above. Eric Anderson
Virgil Cain:
“Not By Chance” introduces a “non-random evolutionary hypothesis” proclaiming the deck is stacked wrt mutations.
There is no doubt about it. Mapou
Zachriels: once you have a functional replicator, then...”. Box: Why a functional replicator at all? And why don’t they fall apart? It reminds me of the old Steve Martin gag, How You Can Be a Millionaire and Not Pay Any Taxes... "First, get a million dollars. Now,..." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXmQW_aqBks mike1962
Zach,
Z:
Box: I’m not merely asking how life began, I’m pointing out that there is no reason for matter to organize itself into larger complex wholes.
The point is that once you have a functional replicator, then it will evolve into “larger complex wholes”.
Why? Why a functional replicator at all? And why don’t they fall apart
Z:
Box: All we know about chemistry speaks against life’s robustness.
It does? Living organisms are counterexamples to that. There’s no known processes of robustness within a living organism which is contrary to the laws of chemistry. You could start with the epidermis, the ‘bag’ for the rest of the organism.
Maybe Talbott can make you see:
Talbott: The problem of form in the organism — how does a single cell (zygote) reliably develop to maturity “according to its own kind” — has vexed biologists for centuries. But the same mystery plays out in the mature organism, which must continually work to maintain its normal form, as well as restore it when injured. It is difficult to bring oneself fully face to face with the enormity of this accomplishment. Scientists can damage tissues in endlessly creative ways that the organism has never confronted in its evolutionary history. Yet, so far as its resources allow, it mobilizes those resources, sets them in motion, and does what it has never done before, all in the interest of restoring a dynamic form and a functioning that the individual molecules and cells certainly cannot be said to “understand” or “have in view”. We can frame the problem of identity and context with this question: Where do we find the context and activity that, in whatever sense we choose to use the phrase, does “have in view” this restorative aim? Not an easy question. Yet the achievement is repeatedly carried through; an ever-adaptive intelligence comes into play somehow, and all those molecules and cells are quite capable of participating in and being caught up in the play.
Z:
Box: The Darwinian narrative doesn’t just presuppose one first robust replicator, it presupposes an abundance of countless robust replicators in all shapes and sizes, offered by pure chance for natural selection to act on.
Once you have a single functional replicator and suitable resources, you will have “countless robust replicators in all shapes and sizes.”
You make my point for me. The whole Darwinian idea is based on the assumption that robust replicators in all shapes and sizes are easy to find and readily available. Yet no one can build a simple cell from matter. Yet all attempts to come up with a bottom-up explanation for an organism — the search for the master-controller — have failed miserably. You guys simply base your hypothesis on something that you don’t understand. Little has changed since the days of Darwin and Haeckel who held that a cell is a “simple little lump of albuminous combination of carbon,” not much different from a piece of microscopic Jell-O.
Z:
Box: What you see as “keeping” or “preserving” is in fact “ignoring”.
Semantics. Those organisms which are most adept at acquiring the resources necessary for reproduction will tend to become dominant in a population.
The ability to acquire resources is just one thing that can provide an escape from the grim reaper a.k.a. “natural selection”, another can be thick fur, or having the correct size, color or whatever. Bottom line is that there is no process of adaptation, there is only a series of escapes.
Z:
Box: A severe winter doesn’t cuddle the wooliest sheep, it eliminates the other sheep instead.
All sheep are subject to natural selection, each with advantages and disadvantages. Too much wool is a waste of resources, for instance, or may lead to overheating. Each member of the population is constantly being subjected to various forces of competition and the environment.
Sure, but in the end the ones that survive have escaped the claws of natural selection. It is as simple as that.
Z:
Box: This is not nitpicking on terms. I’m pointing out that natural selection is a non-creative negative force which only explains elimination.
However, even with your overly simplified model, adaptation can occur. A long nose can become prehensility through variation and selection.
By “variation” you simply mean chance. Selection Elimination does not create multi-tasking long noses, chance does.
Hugo de Vries: “natural selection may explain the survival of the fittest, but it cannot explain the arrival of the fittest”
Box
E. coli has over 5000 genes and over 4 million base pairs. This means that the search space for e. coli is 4 ^ 4 million. You could have zillions of universes filled with e.coli and it would not make a difference. RM+NS is just a silly fart joke for children. The combinatorial explosion is the merciless killer of all the Darwinian evolution crap coming from Zachriel/Croteau and the rest of the liars. Mapou
Mapou: No is is not. If we observe the distribution of cards in straight poker, and about 0.14% are a full house, 2.1% are three of a kind, 42% are a pair, and about half are high card hands, then we say it fits a random distribution. You might argue that you were meant to get that full house, that you grabbed your lucky rabbit's foot just as the cards were dealt, but the argument has no empirical validity. The results are indistinguishable from a random distribution. Zachriel
Zachriel/Croteau, the liar for Darwin:
In the case of the Lenski experiment, the number of generations it took to evolve citrate utilization, that it was only found in certain strains, and that it required potentiating mutations, is consistent with random mutation.
No is is not. None of it proved anything other than mutations can and do happen. Liar. Mapou
In the case of the Lenski experiment, the number of generations it took to evolve citrate utilization, that it was only found in certain strains, and that it required potentiating mutations, is consistent with random mutation.
So considering how many generations it took for humans to create alternating current it must have been a random event. Virgil Cain
Mapou: In order to claim Darwinian evolution, it is not enough to say that mutations did it. One has to prove that the mutations were random. In the case of the Lenski experiment, the number of generations it took to evolve citrate utilization, that it was only found in certain strains, and that it required potentiating mutations, is consistent with random mutation. Zachriel
"Not By Chance" introduces a "non-random evolutionary hypothesis" proclaiming the deck is stacked wrt mutations. Virgil Cain
Virgil Cain:
Lenski did not demonstrate that the mutations that allowed for citrate transport in an aerobic environment were accidents, errors or mistakes. That alone means he could not say natural selection didit.
This is an excellent point. In order to claim Darwinian evolution, it is not enough to say that mutations did it. One has to prove that the mutations were random. Otherwise, one is practicing voodoo science, which is what Darwinian evolution is. Just superstition and lies masquerading as science. Mapou
Lenski did not demonstrate that the mutations that allowed for citrate transport in an aerobic environment were accidents, errors or mistakes. That alone means he could not say natural selection didit. Virgil Cain
Living organisms are counterexamples to that. There’s no known processes of robustness within a living organism which is contrary to the laws of chemistry.
The genetic code has nothing to do with the laws of chemistry. The genetic code refutes your entire position.
Natural selection is not only required for adaptation, but an inevitable consequence of competition for resources.
Natural selection isn't required for adaptation. Directed evolution is required for adaptation. Virgil Cain
Dr JDD: Have they put the e coli with this change in direct competition in the wild with wt e coli lacking in this ability to utilise citrate in aerobic environments? We know the genetic mechanism involved, and it is not a degradation of an existing system, but a new pathway. The E. coli is the wild would probably be more fit in the wild than any strain in the experiment, as the experimental bacteria have evolved to adapt to the laboratory environment. Furthermore, the citrate strain of E. coli would probably be outcompeted in the wild by other species that are more adapted to the citrate environment. As for relative fitness, it would depend on the aerobic environment. If the primary food source is citrate, then the strain that can utilize citrate would be fitter. Lacking citrate, it would be at a disadvantage because of the energy costs to maintain the pathway. Zachriel
Zachriel Lenski's citrate utilising E. Coli  is not evidence of a novel feature evolving i.e. that requiring novel gene coding for novel proteins in a novel functional organisation which is exactly what is required to explain 'goo to you' evolution with its multitudinous marvels of biotechnology. That's the real issue. New Scientist 6.2015 says 'But a mutation in the citrate-eaters allowed them to make an "antiporter" protein, CitT, that allows citrate to cross the membrane and enter the cell. The gene for this protein already existed, but it's usually switched off when oxygen is present.'  My italics. So no new metabolic pathways - they already could metab citrate; no new proteins - already had the transporter protein coding; no new organisation of anything. A repressor of CitT that operated in oxic conditions broke and allowed the cells to uptake citrate (which most other colonic bugs can do). Nothing truly novel in gene coding or proteins. A degradatory process that allowed bugs in a tightly controlled experiment (I.D.!) to shuffle the same old cards they already had. No new cards created. It took the equivalent in generational terms of 6-800,000 yrs of putative hominid evolution to achieve this tiny change under tightly controlled artificial conditions. Is this really one of Evolution's poster children? Why all the back slapping? The same old micro-evol tale we ALL believe. Limited changeability in organisms is a given. Even minor novelty isn't beyond stat possibility in microbes. All  pre-Darwinian Christendom believed in one original human pair yet knew humans had many superficial variations that had arisen. To ascribe to this process the creation of Mozart, his mind and music from a few organic molecules in this one speck in the Universe is to have a real faith in a hopelessly inadequate mut/natural selection process (experimentally verified to be so by Lenski!). alban
Zachriel Lenski's citrate utilising E. Coli  is not evidence of a novel feature evolving i.e. that requiring novel gene coding for novel proteins in a novel functional organisation which is exactly what is required to explain 'goo to you' evolution with its multitudinous marvels of biotechnology. That's the real issue. New Scientist 6.2015 says 'But a mutation in the citrate-eaters allowed them to make an "antiporter" protein, CitT, that allows citrate to cross the membrane and enter the cell. The gene for this protein already existed, but it's usually switched off when oxygen is present.'  My italics. So no new metabolic pathways - they already could metab citrate; no new proteins - already had the transporter protein coding; no new organisation of anything. A repressor of CitT that operated in oxic conditions broke and allowed the cells to uptake citrate (which most other colonic bugs can do). Nothing truly novel in gene coding or proteins. A degradatory process that allowed bugs in a tightly controlled experiment (I.D.!) to shuffle the same old cards they already had. No new cards created. It took the equivalent in generational terms of 6-800,000 yrs of putative hominid evolution to achieve this tiny change under tightly controlled artificial conditions. Is this really one of Evolution's poster children? Why all the back slapping? The same old micro-evol tale we ALL believe. Limited changeability in organisms is a given. Even minor novelty isn't beyond stat possibility in microbes. All  pre-Darwinian Christendom believed in one original human pair yet knew humans had many superficial variations that had arisen. To ascribe to this process the creation of Mozart, his mind and music from a few organic molecules in this one speck in the Universe is to have a real faith in a hopelessly inadequate mut/natural selection process (experimentally verified to be so by Lenski!). alban
That is incorrect. The ability to utilize citrate in aerobic environments by E. coli is not a degradatory change.
Zachriel can you offer evidence for this or are you assuming? Have they put the e coli with this change in direct competition in the wild with wt e coli lacking in this ability to utilise citrate in aerobic environments? Which strain out competes?
Dr JDD
EugeneS: Wherever Darwinian evolution occurs, it involves beneficial but degradatory mutations. It cannot account for genuine novelty. That is incorrect. The ability to utilize citrate in aerobic environments by E. coli is not a degradatory change. More important, a change that may be deleterious in one environment may be advantageous in another. For instance, a larger beak for breaking larger seeds may be an advantage when larger seeds are ubiquitous, but a disadvantage when smaller seeds are more common. Box: I’m not merely asking how life began, I’m pointing out that there is no reason for matter to organize itself into larger complex wholes. The point is that once you have a functional replicator, then it will evolve into "larger complex wholes". Box: All we know about chemistry speaks against life’s robustness. It does? Living organisms are counterexamples to that. There's no known processes of robustness within a living organism which is contrary to the laws of chemistry. You could start with the epidermis, the 'bag' for the rest of the organism. Box: The Darwinian narrative doesn’t just presuppose one first robust replicator, it presupposes an abundance of countless robust replicators in all shapes and sizes, offered by pure chance for natural selection to act on. Once you have a single functional replicator and suitable resources, you will have "countless robust replicators in all shapes and sizes." Box: If so, then despite natural selection. That is incorrect. Natural selection is not only required for adaptation, but an inevitable consequence of competition for resources. Box: What you see as “keeping” or “preserving” is in fact “ignoring”. Semantics. Those organisms which are most adept at acquiring the resources necessary for reproduction will tend to become dominant in a population. Box: A severe winter doesn’t cuddle the wooliest sheep, it eliminates the other sheep instead. All sheep are subject to natural selection, each with advantages and disadvantages. Too much wool is a waste of resources, for instance, or may lead to overheating. Each member of the population is constantly being subjected to various forces of competition and the environment. Box: Just like the wooly sheep, the birds with large beaks can be said to be ignored by natural selection. "Can be said" is a term for semantics. Box: This is not nitpicking on terms. I’m pointing out that natural selection is a non-creative negative force which only explains elimination. That's a very simplified view of natural selection, as most organisms can make due. They are in competition for resources and mates, and some will tend to leave more offspring. However, even with your overly simplified model, adaptation can occur. A long nose can become a prehensility through variation and selection. Box: Darwinians conflate “adaptation” with “not being eliminated”. There is an essential difference between the two terms. Adaptation occurs due to the interplay of variation and selection. It won't occur without both. Eric Anderson: Unless we define every change in a population as “natural selection,” then something additional — actual evidence, not assumptions — is needed to go from “change in a population” to “natural selection in action.” Not every change in a population is natural selection; it has to be due to heritable reproductive advantages. Reznick shows this. By itself, this doesn't support the entire Theory of Evolution, which also requires understanding the history of divergence from common ancestors. Zachriel
wd400 @15:
I’m afraid this is just laughable. If you look at the lower boxes the first is simply wrong, the authors demonstrate the changes are heritable (something you’ve been told multiple times and would know if you’d read the paper you erected all this rubbish on).
It is not just Reznick who falls into this trap. There are many examples, and you are Exhibit A in this Darwinian thought process. We have been trying for some time to get you to comprehend the very simple distinction between observing a change in a population and then proceeding to "therefore, evolution is true." Unless we define every change in a population as "natural selection," then something additional -- actual evidence, not assumptions -- is needed to go from "change in a population" to "natural selection in action." Of course we could, as so many do, define a change in a population as natural selection in action. In which case, we fall squarely within the box I drew: circular reasoning and definitional fiat. The OP is not laughable. The laughable part here is that even after seeing it pointed out to you, you still fall into the same trap. ----- Finally, I don't know why you keep claiming that there is something in the paper that would refute my points. I have never criticized the paper, have repeatedly said that I think Reznick's investigative work is good and has yielded interesting data. Please quit making false insinuations that I am criticizing Reznick's paper or his work. That is not what this is about and you know it. This is about what happens after good data is gathered, after the wonderful (and usually rather cautious) paper is submitted for publication. This is about when the scientists and those who love to read more into the results than they can support start to draw unsupported conclusions about the ramifications of the data. Eric Anderson
Zach,
Z:
Box: For what reason does teleologically challenged matter organize itself into complex wholes?
No one knows how life began. Once life began, however, evolution led to adaptation and diversification.
I’m not merely asking how life began, I’m pointing out that there is no reason for matter to organize itself into larger complex wholes. Nor is there any reason for their continued existence.
Z:
Box: Why don’t organisms fall apart?
Chemistry.
All we know about chemistry speaks against life’s robustness. A bag filled with chemicals should not be in a dynamic equilibrium state. Read Barham again and weep:
Barham: How can living systems be so robust (dynamically stable), when they consist of thousands of chemical interactions that must all be coordinated precisely in time and space? From the point of view of physics, cells (not to speak of more complex organisms) should not exist, and yet they do. How is that possible? The only suggestion Darwinism has to offer is chance: those systems that just happened to be stable are the ones that we see today.
Z:
Box: In other words, the Darwinian narrative, without offering an explanation for robustness, simply presupposes that reducibility of organisms to physical processes is reconcilable with robustness.
Evolution presupposes a stable replicator. The rest is evolutionary detail.
The Darwinian narrative doesn’t just presuppose one first robust replicator, it presupposes an abundance of countless robust replicators in all shapes and sizes, offered by pure chance for natural selection to act on.
Z:
Box: 1) “Natural selection” is not a creative force.
No. However, evolution is a creative force.
If so, then despite natural selection.
Eric Anderson: At another level, though, if we think of “viable” in a broader sense or if we simply acknowledge that some creatures were produced that didn’t end up surviving, then you are quite right: to that extent natural selection is a hindrance to evolution. It removes, it culls, it eliminates, it lessens possibilities. If anything, natural selection helps to keep a population within a stable norm, rather than veering off in new and uncharted directions.
Z:
Box: 2) Natural selection does not select and preserve, but eliminates stuff.
That’s half of the equation. Novel variation adds stuff. Natural selection selects the fittest and keeps it. This leads to incremental adaptation.
What you see as “keeping” or “preserving” is in fact “ignoring”. Some things are ignored by natural selection. Some things escape the deadly claws of natural selection elimination. A severe winter doesn’t cuddle the wooliest sheep, it eliminates the other sheep instead. What you call “adaptation” is in fact “escaping”.
Z:
Box: There is no such thing as “selection pressure”, there are only pathways where you don’t get eliminated.
Of course there’s selection pressure. If there is an advantage for a bird to have a larger beak, then those birds which have larger beaks will tend to propagate in the population.
Just like the wooly sheep, the birds with large beaks can be said to be ignored by natural selection. Their propagation in the population is not due to “selection”, but by natural selection’s elimination of the other birds. This is not nitpicking on terms. I’m pointing out that natural selection is a non-creative negative force which only explains elimination. Natural selection only explains the absence of certain organisms.
Z:
Box: And, according to a properly understood Darwinian narrative, we are produced by chance for 100%.
No. Evolutionary adaptation requires a source of variation as well as selection.
Nope. Darwinians conflate “adaptation” with “not being eliminated”. There is an essential difference between the two terms. We are the ones that got away from natural selection. And, according to a properly understood Darwinian narrative, we are produced by chance for 100%. All organisms alive are produced by chance alone. Box
Mung @12:
IOW, after arguing by analogy, confessing the analogy doesn’t really hold. But people fell for it anyways.
Well said. This is because, as Hunter has clearly demonstrated, it wasn't really about the evidence in the first place. It was about supporting a naturalistic explanation, a storyline that dispensed with a creator. That storyline is key. The evidence is ancillary. Eric Anderson
Box, Exactly! Insightful, isn't it?! And quite different from what they are trying to sell :) In the Darwinian paradigm, all the innovation they claim is really due to chance alone. That is insane in the face of evidence. All the gibberish about natural selection 'coupled with' random variation should be taken for what it really is - nonsense. Evidence, i.e. the biological complexity we observe, is against Darwinism. Wherever Darwinian evolution occurs, it involves beneficial but degradatory mutations. It cannot account for genuine novelty. EugeneS
Only directed evolution can produce adaptations and only directed evolution is a creative force.
Natural selection selects the fittest and keeps it.
BWAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Natural selection doesn't select. Virgil Cain
Andre: Survival of the reproductive? "defined either with respect to a genotype or to a phenotype in a given environment. In either case, it describes individual reproductive success" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fitness_(biology) groovamos: There are scads and scads of saltwater species. There are scads and scads of freshwater species. Why did this magical thing called Darwinian Evolution need a species that can live in both worlds? Fish evolved in saltwater oceans where there are ample food resources. Some adapted to take advantage of the relative safety beyond the oceans in order to spawn, such as intertidal zones and freshwater streams. Box: For what reason does teleologically challenged matter organize itself into complex wholes? No one knows how life began. Once life began, however, evolution led to adaptation and diversification. Box: Why don’t organisms fall apart? Chemistry. Box: In other words, the Darwinian narrative, without offering an explanation for robustness, simply presupposes that reducibility of organisms to physical processes is reconcilable with robustness. Evolution presupposes a stable replicator. The rest is evolutionary detail. Box: 1) “Natural selection” is not a creative force. No. However, evolution is a creative force. Box: 2) Natural selection does not select and preserve, but eliminates stuff. That's half of the equation. Novel variation adds stuff. Natural selection selects the fittest and keeps it. This leads to incremental adaptation. Box: There is no such thing as “selection pressure”, there are only pathways where you don’t get eliminated. Of course there's selection pressure. If there is an advantage for a bird to have a larger beak, then those birds which have larger beaks will tend to propagate in the population. What we will see is that average beak size increases over time. If the environment changes to provide an advantage for those birds with smaller beaks, then the process will reverse. Box: And, according to a properly understood Darwinian narrative, we are produced by chance for 100%. No. Evolutionary adaptation requires a source of variation as well as selection. Zachriel
1) "Natural selection" is not a creative force.
Andreas Wagner: Natural selection can preserve innovations, but it cannot create them.
2) Natural selection does not select and preserve, but eliminates stuff.
Eric Anderson: At another level, though, if we think of “viable” in a broader sense or if we simply acknowledge that some creatures were produced that didn’t end up surviving, then you are quite right: to that extent natural selection is a hindrance to evolution. It removes, it culls, it eliminates, it lessens possibilities.
Conclusion: you and I and all the organisms alive are not created by natural selection but rather are untouched — not eliminated — by natural selection. Natural selection is ONLY an explanation for the organisms that got eliminated — the organisms we don't see. There is no such thing as "selection pressure", there are only pathways where you don't get eliminated.
(…) it has been estimated that 99.9% of all species that have ever lived on Earth are now extinct.
We are the ones that got away from natural selection. And, according to a properly understood Darwinian narrative, we are produced by chance for 100%. All organisms alive are produced by chance alone. Box
PPS: Documenting the sustained projection and strawman caricature rhetorical games: http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2015/10/walter-mitty-atheism.html kairosfocus
Mapou, pardon but you missed the point. The issue in the design inference is a reliable empirical marker of design as process, which credibly has been found. All the attempts to change subject to designer, is a side track and appeal to ideological prejudices. Which prejudices should be exposed for what they are. Once the existence of such markers is recognised, that by itself is transformational, including on fields as remote as study of minds, brains and bodies and things that pivot on our minds. With simple but pivotal insights in hand, reverse engineering biology will move ahead . . . even as, unacknowledged for what it is, is already happening, hindered by a roadblocking paradigm. KF PS: I know you have problems with mathematics and ontology, that is a separate set of subjects. I suggest to you that, confronted with a hostile, even bigoted atmosphere that views Christians as ignorant, stupid, insane or wicked -- Dawkins et al have much to apologise for in a day when that hostility is now being distilled by madmen into "shoot Christians on sight" -- it has been important to show the inherent rationality of ethical theism and the Judaeo-Christian tradition, by taking up inter alia ontological and moral reasoning about the roots of reality, also speaking to first principles of reason and the foundations of the Christian faith. The contrast with the demonstrated self-referential incoherence of evolutionary materialism in addressing the mind and its rational, responsible freedom and conscious awareness of enduring self, others like oneself and a wider objective world, speaks volumes. Indeed, it points to one of the apparent pivots of evolutionary materialist rhetoric and hostility backed intensity: projection to the other of what one, deep down, fears or loathes about oneself. kairosfocus
Ok Mapou, So what you are saying is that for these people, it likely never was, or at some point, was not about "real science". If so, could it have something to do about bolstering their own philosophical world view opinions and shoving the same onto others? Not just for ego gratifications, but for ill gained profit? Or out of lazy uncritical acceptance of outdated dogma passed off as current science? So you are implying the motivations are not sufficiently scientifically motivated? And not consistent with producing actual scientific conclusions? Now wouldn't that be a big surprise! bpragmatic
bpragmatic, They just want to impose their state religion on the world. They're very good at it. As you say, they use our own money to brainwash us. But lies do not endure forever. When we finally wake up, we'll kick some serious ass. And they'll have it coming. Mapou
Variability in all of the factors required for "evolutionary" development of living organisms and ecosystems from A to Z, add infintesimly to the problem any NDE proponent has to empirically demonstrate as "feasible". Ignoring this, in order to promote an alleged "scientific" argument for the vast array of "conjecture" required to support many of the assertions inherent in what, for some reasons, these people want to promote as solid science. Why the "billions of box cars before the engine"? I, for one, am sick of these so called "scientists" being funded by public money, to unthinkingly, or puposfly promoting a philosophy, that at the basis of it, is just being pissed off about "religion" and/or clinging to the income stream based on the outdated ideas they bought into (without sufficient scientific evidence) years ago. Use the current information and make adjustments, based on the recent science, to PROMOTE SCIENCE WHERE IT IS LEADING TO NOW. I think you will then be living up to what I hope were your personal standards for your pursuit of truth in science when you began your journey. bpragmatic
Darwinian evolution can't handle either survival or reproduction. Zachriel is lying again. Mapou
Precisely, and that is why evolution is the result of and takes a back seat to intelligence. Reproduction precedes evolution and is not explained by it. Only intelligence explains reproduction. Thank you Zachriel for your(pl) uncharacteristic admission of the truth of design.
Zachriel said: "The issue for evolution isn’t survival, but reproduction."
Steve
All naturalistic explanations lack depth and coherency and only appeal to the shallow minded. True to style the Darwinian narrative merely attempts to explain secondary properties of organisms, like appearance and behavior, however it offers no explanation whatsoever for the primary property of organisms: robustness (self-organization), the fundamental defining feature of all life. The alleged power of natural selection only acts on a wide variety of organisms who already possess this ability. In other words it’s entirely up to chance to find robust beings. A few questions for Darwinians before we talk about Finch beak sizes or anything else: For what reason does teleologically challenged matter organize itself into complex wholes? And once matter has done the impossible for no reason whatsoever, what does explain their continued existence? Why don’t organisms fall apart?
Tallbot: (…) the question, rather, is why things don’t fall completely apart — as they do, in fact, at the moment of death. What power holds off that moment — precisely for a lifetime, and not a moment longer?
The same question put differently: If one holds that an organism is reducible to physical processes, how does one explain robustness?
Barham: How can living systems be so robust (dynamically stable), when they consist of thousands of chemical interactions that must all be coordinated precisely in time and space? From the point of view of physics, cells (not to speak of more complex organisms) should not exist, and yet they do. How is that possible? The only suggestion Darwinism has to offer is chance: those systems that just happened to be stable are the ones that we see today.
In other words, the Darwinian narrative, without offering an explanation for robustness, simply presupposes that reducibility of organisms to physical processes is reconcilable with robustness. Box
VC:
wd400:
If you think evolutionary biology can’t explain this (I disagree) what’s the alternative?
Undirected evolution doesn’t explain it. Directed evolution via built-in responses to environmental cues would be the best explanation.
Yes, their genes were engineered to adapt to environmental cues. This is the ONLY explanation. Everything else is ruminations from mental midgets like Zachriel and wd400. Mapou
Mung:
And salmon are organisms, therefore salmon will tend to invade available niches. Well, no.
The available freshwater salmon invaded the available saltwater niche. Or was it the available saltwater salmon invaded the available freshwater niche. It was a hostile, bloody invasion. And the bears- don't forget the bears! Why don't they just let us spawn and then eat us? Virgil Cain
wd400:
If you think evolutionary biology can’t explain this (I disagree) what’s the alternative?
Undirected evolution doesn't explain it. Directed evolution via built-in responses to environmental cues would be the best explanation. Virgil Cain
"Seriously, Mung, what’s with this barrage of silly posts lately?" Asks the man who believes unguided material processes created his brain. A brain that, by the way, far, far exceeds the entire internet in terms of complexity.
Human brain has more switches than all computers on Earth - November 2010 Excerpt: They found that the brain's complexity is beyond anything they'd imagined, almost to the point of being beyond belief, says Stephen Smith, a professor of molecular and cellular physiology and senior author of the paper describing the study: ...One synapse, by itself, is more like a microprocessor--with both memory-storage and information-processing elements--than a mere on/off switch. In fact, one synapse may contain on the order of 1,000 molecular-scale switches. A single human brain has more switches than all the computers and routers and Internet connections on Earth. http://news.cnet.com/8301-27083_3-20023112-247.html The Half-Truths of Materialist Evolution - DONALD DeMARCO - 02/06/2015 Excerpt: but I would like to direct attention to the unsupportable notion that the human brain, to focus on a single phenomenon, could possibly have evolved by sheer chance. One of the great stumbling blocks for Darwin and other chance evolutionists is explaining how a multitude of factors simultaneously coalesce to form a unified, functioning system. The human brain could not have evolved as a result of the addition of one factor at a time. Its unity and phantasmagorical complexity defies any explanation that relies on pure chance. It would be an underestimation of the first magnitude to say that today’s neurophysiologists know more about the structure and workings of the brain than did Darwin and his associates. Scientists in the field of brain research now inform us that a single human brain contains more molecular-scale switches than all the computers, routers and Internet connections on the entire planet! According to Stephen Smith, a professor of molecular and cellular physiology at the Stanford University School of Medicine, the brain’s complexity is staggering, beyond anything his team of researchers had ever imagined, almost to the point of being beyond belief. In the cerebral cortex alone, each neuron has between 1,000 to 10,000 synapses that result, roughly, in a total of 125 trillion synapses, which is about how many stars fill 1,500 Milky Way galaxies! A single synapse may contain 1,000 molecular-scale switches. A synapse, simply stated, is the place where a nerve impulse passes from one nerve cell to another. Phantasmagorical as this level of unified complexity is, it places us merely at the doorway of the brain’s even deeper mind-boggling organization. Glial cells in the brain assist in neuron speed. These cells outnumber neurons 10 times over, with 860 billion cells. All of this activity is monitored by microglia cells that not only clean up damaged cells but also prune dendrites, forming part of the learning process. The cortex alone contains 100,000 miles of myelin-covered, insulated nerve fibers. The process of mapping the brain would indeed be time-consuming. It would entail identifying every synaptic neuron. If it took a mere second to identify each neuron, it would require four billion years to complete the project. http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/the-half-truths-of-materialist-evolution/ "Complexity Brake" Defies Evolution - August 8, 2012 Excerpt: Consider a neuronal synapse -- the presynaptic terminal has an estimated 1000 distinct proteins. Fully analyzing their possible interactions would take about 2000 years. Or consider the task of fully characterizing the visual cortex of the mouse -- about 2 million neurons. Under the extreme assumption that the neurons in these systems can all interact with each other, analyzing the various combinations will take about 10 million years..., even though it is assumed that the underlying technology speeds up by an order of magnitude each year. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/08/complexity_brak062961.html
bornagain
Seriously, Mung, what's with this barrage of silly posts lately? wd400
wd400:
If you think evolutionary biology can’t explain this (I disagree) what’s the alternative?
Miraculously magical fortuitous mutations. If you can distinguish that from "the evolutionary biology explanation" I'd sure like to know about it. Mung
Mung, The Moon isn’t an available niche for salmon. Is that also why I don't find salmon swimming in my toilet? Zachriels are being their usual disingenuous selves. No surprise there. The Zachriels' strategy: Say something true but trivial or irrelevant. Leave unsaid anything of real substance. Frankly I think we should all learn to respond in kind to this insipid troll. groovamos asked a question about a specific species, salmon. The answer given by Zachriels, after having removed the context, says nothing about salmon. Zachriel:
Organisms will tend to invade available niches.
And salmon are organisms, therefore salmon will tend to invade available niches. Well, no. So the Zachriels either avoided the question entirely and changed the subject or the Zachriels lied. Neither one is intellectually honest. Mung
Groovamos, There's lots wrong your post, but ignoring that for now here's a more important question: What scientific approach would you take to understand the widespread existence of diadromous lifestyles like those of salmon species? If you think evolutionary biology can't explain this (I disagree) what's the alternative? wd400
When I wrote that "science isn't about stuff that you can observe", what did I mean by that?
Are dinosaurs merely an interpretation of our best explanation of fossils? Or are they *the* explanation for fossils? After all, there are an infinite number of rival interpretations that accept the same empirical observations, yet suggest that dinosaurs never existed millions of years ago. For example, there is the rival interpretation that fossils only come into existence when they are consciously observed. Therefore, fossils are no older than human beings. As such, they are not evidence of dinosaurs, but evidence of acts of those particular observations. Another interpretation would be that dinosaurs are such weird animals that conventional logic simply doesn’t apply to them. One could suggests It’s meaningless to ask if dinosaurs were real or just a useful fiction to explain fossils – which is an example of instrumentalism. Not to mention the rival interpretation that an abstract designer with no limitations chose to create the world we observe 30 days ago. Therefore, dinosaurs couldn’t be the explanation for fossils because they didn’t exist at the time. Yet, we do not say that dinosaurs are merely an interpretation of our best explanation of fossils, they *are* the explanation for fossils. And this explanation is primarily about dinosaurs, not fossils. So, it’s in this sense that science isn’t primarily about “things you can see”.
Popperian
Feel free to explain how proponents of evolutionary theory so often go from an observation of a change in a population to “evolution is true” and “those who doubt evolution are wrong,” if not via the steps I have outlined above. I am open to hearing how you think the conclusions are reached if not as I have outlined.
Again, that's an interpretation of observations, and I'm suggesting you're mistaken about at least some of them. Darwin proposed evolution as a theory that explained what we knew about biological features at the time. That theory did not come from observations of finch beaks, etc., but was a conjectured (an educated guess) universal theory about how the world works, to explain biological complexity we observe. (Consider how we cannot actually measure gravity everywhere in the universe, but we think is acts universally and think it plays a fundamental role that explains a vast number of phenomena.) When new details about biblical features are proposed, those theories have not been fatal to key aspects of Darwin's theory. For example, the discovery of DNA could have been such a discovery, but was not. Darwin's theory survived significant criticism. And that's just one example. Furthermore, Darwin's theory is preferred because it has necessary consequences for the current state of the system which we can test. From the NCSE article, What Did Karl Popper Really Say About Evolution?...
What Popper calls the historical sciences do not make predictions about long past unique events (postdictions), which obviously would not be testable. (Several recent authors—including Stephen Jay Gould in Discover, July 1982—make this mistake.) These sciences make hypotheses involving past events which must predict (that is, have logical consequences) for the present state of the system in question. Here the testing procedure takes for granted the general laws and theories and is testing the specific conditions (or initial conditions, as Popper usually calls them) that held for the system. A scientist, on the basis of much comparative anatomy and physiology, might hypothesize that, in the distant past, mammals evolved from reptiles. This would have testable consequences for the present state of the system (earth's surface with the geological strata in it and the animal and plant species living on it) in the form of reptile-mammal transition fossils that should exist, in addition to other necessary features of the DNA, developmental systems, and so forth, of the present-day reptiles and mammals.
So, the kind of observations in question are referring to necessary consequences to biological Darwinism. This isn't the only reason why we should except the theory, as it explains more phenomena and is harder to vary, as I indicated in my earlier comment, but it's yet another key criticism that it has passed. Popperian
One of the primary things keeping traditional evolutionary theory afloat is not the mountain of evidence supposedly existing in its favor, but the way in which the evidence is interpreted in the context of the pre-existing Darwinian paradigm.
It's unclear how you can interpret evidence without first putting into some kind of theoretical framework. As such, it's unclear how you expect us to approach anything, let alone the biosphere, from a completely theory neutral way.
The key is the way evolutionary theorists tend to proceed from an observation to a series of conclusions. When you are steeped in evolutionary thought, when no alternative explanations are permitted as a matter of fiat, when the only possible interpretation open to you is a purely naturalistic and materialistic explanation, the conclusions seem to follow naturally.
First, I do not proceed from observations to conclusions. I start with a problem, conjecture theories about how the world works that allow us to solve that problem, then criticize them - discarding errors discovered in the process. That's why my user name is Popperian. Second, it's not that no other explanations are not "permitted" but that they are easily varied and are completely missing explantations that other theories provide. For example, in both ID and creationism, the origin of the knowledge of what transformations to perform that result in an organism's features when copied is either supernatural, absent or irrational. So, they are discarded for being bad explanations in contrast to biological Darwinism.
Evolution is really easy to prove. Since “evolution” means both tiny changes and the whole grand creative process, if we can prove a tiny change then we’ve proved the whole grand creative process. Therefore “evolution” occurred. So what’s your problem?
A problem that tends to occur on both sides is proceeding under the assumption that science is about stuff you can observe and that it is in the business of using observations to prove theories are true or probably true. For example, ID proponents rightly point out that observations do not prove that evolution is true, but wrongly imply this is a unique program for biological Darwinism and that evidence is irrelevant unless it does. IOW, the mountains of evidence you referred to is actually significant not because it proves evolution is true or probably true, but it significant because it represents a mountain of empirical criticism that evolution has withstood. Quotes like those above from the other side only serve to sidetrack and confuse the problem further.
Unfortunately, [the above quote] is not a parody. It is the basis for so much of evolutionary thought.
Except I'm an evolutionist and do not think that at all. You're trying to conflate empiricism, a theory of science, with biological darwinism, which are really two distinct ideas that are not joined at the hip. Note: it's not that I think empirical observations do not play an important role. Empiricism was an important step because it helped promote empirical observations in science. But it got the role observations play wrong. The contents of theories are tested by observations, not derived from them. So I would suggest the kind of theory exclusion you referred to starts much earlier and is more fundamental. To rephrase in the language from part of your OP.
When you are steeped in empiricism, when no alternative explanations are permitted as a matter of fiat, when the only possible interpretation open to you is proving theories are true or probably true using observations, the conclusion that biological darwinism isn't science seems to follow naturally.
[graphic ommited]
For now, I simply want to outline in graphical form the basic steps that are taken in the thought process. Some promoters of evolutionary theory may be more inclined to one aspect or another, but the overall outline is all too common:
Just because someone is confused about the role that observations play and this does not mean those observations are irrelevant and they haven't reached isn't the best explanation in the end. Let's we hypothetically observe a computer returned an answer to a problem. I explain the result as "magic" while you explain it though the universality of computation. It's quite possible that the mistake I made isn't really a significant problem unless I try to take "magic" seriously as an explanation for returning the answer. We can say the same about empiricism and inductivism. It's not really a significant problem unless one try to take it seriously as ID proponents are in the case of the biosphere (but not take too seriously, as they only object only in the case of the biosphere, while blissfully ignoring the implications it would have for other fields of science). Furthermore, any modus ponens (the way that affirms by affirming) argument can be transformed into modus tollens (the way that denies by denying). So, the mistake isn't completely and utterly fatal. All of our theories are incomplete and contain errors to some degree. Even quantum mechanics, which is the most accurate theory we have in science, doesn't jive with GR. So, we know at least one of these theories are wrong. The question is where and to what degree.
Once we see what is actually going on with each step of the thought process – with each of the “therefores” in the chain of thought – rather than finding convincing, overwhelming proof of the theory we instead find a series of unsupported assumptions, circular definitions, conflated concepts and unsound reasoning.
Except you've got it wrong, at least in my case. And the way that Darwinian empiricists get it wrong isn't serious enough to think we should throw their conclusions out because we view their mountain of proof as a mountain of criticism. I'd also point out that if you view knowledge as only coming from authoritative sources, in would seem natural to assume that evolution false because nature isn't what you would consider authoritative source. Of course, if I've got anything wrong here, then please indicate where and how your views differ. Please be specific. Again, i'm suggesting the kind of theory exclusion you're referring to starts much earlier and is more fundamental. Theism is a form of justificationism, which implies a specific philosophical view at the exclusion of others. As such criticism of theism is a criticism of that view and is not prejudicial to theism alone. Popperian
Survival of the reproductive? I can't find Zachriel's chirp anywhere in Origins. Is he lying again? Andre
Mung, The Moon isn't an available niche for salmon. Zachriel choose its words wisely. Virgil Cain
Zachriel: Organisms will tend to invade available niches. Which is why we find salmon on the moon. Mung
Virgil Cain, I agree with your arguments. Zachriel is a paid evil institution. Don't ever let that a-hole get away with anything. Keep jabbing him until he bleeds from every orifice. LOL. Bravo. Mapou
Mapou, What people like Zachriel fail to understand is that with a nested hierarchy of biological organisms all species are represented at the tips, ie the end of the succession of levels. However with the alleged tree of life only the extant and dead-end species are at the tips, with all other species filling out the branches and trunk- "endless forms most beautiful", one blending into the next. Nested hierarchies and blending do not mix. ;) Virgil Cain
The issue for evolution isn’t survival, but reproduction.
And evolution can't even account for biological reproduction. Virgil Cain
Eric Anderson @ 5
Seversky: It is easy to complain with two words. I would like to hear the substance behind your comment.
I can certainly try but, first, I would like you to confirm that you believe that what you wrote in the OP is a fair and honest summary of current evolutionary thought. Seversky
Virgil Cain:
A nested hierarchy is evidence against Common Descent as Common Descent predicts transitional forms which would ruin a nested hierarchy.
Yes. This is the kind of arguments I want to see from the ID camp. A good scientific argument is like a kick in the groin to a lying Darwinist. It makes them squirm in agony. LOL. Mapou
groovamos: Evolution need a species that can live in both worlds? Organisms will tend to invade available niches. groovamos: And if the issue of the ‘story’ is survival, then why is survival absolutely precluded at the end of the upstream journey of these amazing creatures? The issue for evolution isn't survival, but reproduction. Zachriel
I wrote:
It’s also time for the ID camp to start making some serious biological predictions based on intelligence and design. But first ID researchers must get rid of all that religious and philosophical baggage they carry around with them. All that nonsense about the designer being a simple yet omniscient, omnipotent and altogether impossible mythical being straight out of medieval Church doctrine has got to go. It’s 2015 for crying out loud. We have a better grip on logic nowadays.
kairosfocus replied:
PS: Mapou, the design inference is a simple inductive inference from tested, empirically reliable sign per vera causa. Functionally specific, complex organisation and/or associated information (FSCO/I) has but one empirically reliable, observed cause, intelligently directed configuration. Once this point burns through the message dominance games, let the metaphysical chips lie where they fly. The major, and revolutionary, prediction is that such FSCO/I — the relevant form of CSI, and which embraces relevant cases of irreducible complexity also — will remain as a strong and reliable index of design as cause. This has direct implications for not only the world of life including OOL and origin of body plans (OOBP), but for origin of the cosmos and for the nature of mind. This last, once we put on the table the observation that computation on a relevant hardware substrate is a blind mechanical, non rational cause-effect process, and cannot in itself ground rational, responsible freedom based contemplation. Which last is the basis for rationality and for the credibility of knowledge.
kairosfocus, I'm sorry but you are sounding like a parrot. You've been saying those things forever. How is it working for you? How many Darwinists have you converted with them? Don't tell me. I know. The answer is exactly zero. You know why? It's because they are just as boring and tiresome as the Darwinists' own talking points. What is needed are hard and precise biological predictions that fully take intelligence and design into account. All this talk about the designer being some impossible simple being with perfect knowledge of past, present and future is just cargo cult science. Intelligence is intelligence regardless of who has the intelligence. Intelligence requires learning through trial and error. The stance that God's intelligence is different than ours is superstitious nonsense from medieval thinkers. We, humans, were designed and formed in the image of the Gods. Here's the kind of predictions I would like to see from the ID camp based on design: 1. The species are organized hierarchically, forming a mostly nested tree sprinkled with horizontal gene transfers. 2. Adaptation via genetic modification is controlled directly by the brain in response to environmental stimuli. 3. The genome is organized strictly hierarchically (the real tree of life). I was able to make those predictions simply by applying the principles of intelligent design to biology. There are many more similar predictions that we can make. We have to stop pussyfooting around like Sunday school teachers. The enemy is powerful and is not sleeping. Saying it like I see it, as always. Mapou
Zachriel: Darwin presented two primary lines of evidence; natural selection as the mechanism of adaptation, and common descent as the history of life’s divergence from shared ancestors. Both lines are required to make sense of the evidence. Sorry, just making sense of the evidence (or so trying) is not enough and may not even be the issue in the big picture. Example: Salmon exist and live extraordinary lives. Why? There are scads and scads of saltwater species. There are scads and scads of freshwater species. Why did this magical thing called Darwinian Evolution need a species that can live in both worlds? What issue of survival was crucial in the emergence of the diadromous salmon species? What problem was solved? And if the issue of the 'story' is survival, then why is survival absolutely precluded at the end of the upstream journey of these amazing creatures? Get that? They die. Are we suppose to just sit back and accept whatever story 'science' tells us here? Because really 'science' (meaning certain groups of scientists) has essentially elbowed its way to the storytelling table, ideologically so motivated. So why in the world should we just shut up and take it? Because you guys say so and you're so smart? groovamos
Natural selection channels variations adaptively;
That is the propaganda, anyway. We are still waiting for the evidence.
As Darwin pointed out, artificial selection merely selects among naturally occurring variations, and is capable of substantial changes in phenotype in just thousands of years.
Artificial selection isn't like natural selection. Natural selection could never produce the dog breeds we see today.
Common descent is strongly supported by the nested hierarchy,
A nested hierarchy is evidence against Common Descent as Common Descent predicts transitional forms which would ruin a nested hierarchy.
and by the fossil succession.
fish-> tetrapods-> fish-a-pods. Whoopsie Virgil Cain
I'm afraid this is just laughable. If you look at the lower boxes the first is simply wrong, the authors demonstrate the changes are heritable (something you've been told multiple times and would know if you'd read the paper you erected all this rubbish on). The second box is also wrong -- evolution is defined in science as changes in heritable variants. Even if you want to claim that the variation is not random with respect to fitness then you have to presume some unknown mechanism by which a random sample of fish in one pool are inducing mutations in anticipation for their move to another. Your final two boxes rely on the idea that in the following comment in a university press release...
People are skeptical; they don’t believe in evolution because they can’t see it. Here, we see it. We can see if something makes you better able to make babies and live longer
The author meant that the only reason people are skeptical of evolution is that they can't see it in action. Quite an assumption. That you can erect just a grand narrative on such a small quote (and your own misunderstandings of the paper) is a much better example of how to fool yourself that this paper or the press release describing it. wd400
Mung: Darwin did not present natural selection as a line of evidence. Darwin presented breeding as a line of evidence, then took a leap of faith that there was something analogous in Nature. Breeding is more than an analogy, but shows the availability of natural variation. Darwin discussed a variety of natural cases, as well, such as pollinating insects. Zachriel
Eric Anderson: No, natural selection is not a “mechanism of adaptation.” Natural selection channels variations adaptively; hence, it is a mechanism of adaptation. Eric Anderson: Darwin simply assumed that the adaptations would naturally arise As Darwin pointed out, artificial selection merely selects among naturally occurring variations, and is capable of substantial changes in phenotype in just thousands of years. Eric Anderson: Yes, Darwin proposed common descent. But this is an indirect inference that again lacks a mechanism or adequate evidentiary support. Common descent is strongly supported by the nested hierarchy, and by the fossil succession. You have to understand common descent before you can understand how natural selection have shaped life over hundreds-of-millions of years. Zachriel
Zachriel:
Darwin presented two primary lines of evidence; natural selection as the mechanism of adaptation, and common descent as the history of life’s divergence from shared ancestors. Both lines are required to make sense of the evidence.
Even the Zachriels are confused about this topic. Darwin presented "two primary lines of evidence," they say, and both lines are required to make sense of the evidence. Further, Darwin did not present natural selection as a line of evidence. Darwin presented breeding as a line of evidence, then took a leap of faith that there was something analogous in Nature. Something "like" the intelligent breeder. But this something was not intelligent and had no foresight. IOW, after arguing by analogy, confessing the analogy doesn't really hold. But people fell for it anyways. Mung
Zachriel @8:
Darwin presented two primary lines of evidence; natural selection as the mechanism of adaptation, and common descent as the history of life’s divergence from shared ancestors. Both lines are required to make sense of the evidence.
No, natural selection is not a "mechanism of adaptation." Darwin simply assumed that the adaptations would naturally arise (he never offered a mechanism and didn't -- in fairness probably couldn't in his day -- know what the "mechanism" of adaptation was). Natural selection was simply the way of getting rid of the unfit, the poor adaptations, the failed variations. There was never a mechanism posited. With some early appreciation for genetics, Neo-Darwinism came along and proposed that the mechanism Darwin had needed was random mutations in DNA. Thus, Darwin's theory had found the long-needed mechanism and was now fully supported by purely natural explanations. Or at least that was the thought. Unfortunately, random mutations do not have the ability to generate the variation needed to produce all of nature's varieties. No natural "mechanism" has ever been found that is adequate to the task. And this is precisely on the primary points of evolutionary critics: the needed variations, the great creative power of the evolutionary mechanism has never been shown; it is just assumed. Yes, Darwin proposed common descent. But this is an indirect inference that again lacks a mechanism or adequate evidentiary support. There are myriad issues with common descent, at least the naturalistic version of it. Nevertheless, many evolution critics are willing to even go so far as to accept common descent because it still doesn't explain the source of the adaptations, it still doesn't explain the source of biological novelty, it still doesn't do away with the need for a designing intelligence. Such individuals might agree with you that common descent is required to make sense of the evidence. But even common descent does not mean we are dealing with RM+NS or some other purely natural process. To really make sense of the evidence, you need to be willing to take off the naturalistic blinders and consider that life may appear designed because it is designed. Until one is willing to consider that possibility, they will always be forced to make unsupported assumptions and intellectually-unsound leaps of faith to cram the evidence into their worldview. Eric Anderson
Has someone produced an evolutionary theory? What journal is it published in? Who were the authors? What predictions does it make? What quantification methodology does it use? Inquiring minds want to know... Virgil Cain
There isn't any evidence that natural selection can produce adaptations and universal common descent still cannot be objectively tested. Virgil Cain
Darwin presented two primary lines of evidence; natural selection as the mechanism of adaptation, and common descent as the history of life's divergence from shared ancestors. Both lines are required to make sense of the evidence. Zachriel
EA (attn, Seversky): Excellent. Though, I would suggest that the rot is deeper, going to a radical attempt to impose an evolutionary materialist redefinition of science which then twists any questioning of materialistic a priorism into a perceived attack on science. In this context, I note Seversky's attempted dismissive, "straw man." However, let us note what the US National Science Teachers Association Board put forth as official view in July 2000 (reportedly after a major and expensive study), in the general context of setting the partyline for science education, reflective of broader institutional and media message dominance by the sort of a priori evolutionary materialism as has been documented elsewhere:
Although no single universal step-by-step scientific method captures the complexity of doing science, a number of shared values and perspectives characterize a scientific approach to understanding nature. Among these are a demand for naturalistic explanations [--> note, demand for imposed naturalism, i.e. evolutionary materialism] supported by empirical evidence [--> the q-begging circle having been set] that are, at least in principle, testable against the natural world [--> in which context gross extrapolation is easily fed into the fallacy of galloping hypotheses, cf. OP]. Other shared elements include observations, rational argument [--> evolutionary materialism is inherently self referentially incoherent by undermining mind and reason], inference, skepticism [--> it is an error to imagine "skepticism" is an intellectual virtue], peer review and replicability of work . . . . Science, by definition, is limited to naturalistic methods and explanations and, as such, is precluded from using supernatural elements [--> note loaded language, in a context where ever since Plato in The Laws Bk X, 360 BC . . . and the NSTA knew or could easily have known this, the proper alternative to blind chance and mechanical necessity is the ART-ificial, acting by intelligently directed configuration, aka design] in the production of scientific knowledge. [NSTA, Board of Directors, July 2000]
So, at minimum we have a clear example among others of ideological imposition and question begging in the context of setting the politically correct agenda for science education. The gross dereliction of moral responsibility for education is patent, as is the equally obvious complicity and enabling behaviour of major science institutions (e.g. US NAS and NSTA jointly intervened in Kansas to threaten the Board there, parents and teachers etc by holding students hostage under threat of arbitrary exclusion for the thought crime of teaching a more traditional definition of science). Let me cite the pivotal paragraph of that 2005 joint letter:
. . . the members of the Kansas State Board of Education who produced Draft 2-d of the KSES have deleted text defining science as a search for natural explanations of observable phenomena, blurring the line between scientific and other ways of understanding. Emphasizing controversy in the theory of evolution -- when in fact all modern theories of science are continually tested and verified -- and distorting the definition of science are inconsistent with our Standards and a disservice to the students of Kansas. Regretfully, many of the statements made in the KSES related to the nature of science and evolution also violate the document’s mission and vision. Kansas students will not be well-prepared for the rigors of higher education or the demands of an increasingly complex and technologically-driven world if their science education is based on these standards. Instead, they will put the students of Kansas at a competitive disadvantage as they take their place in the world.
It is hard to avoid the conclusion that this letter is a threat, rooted in speaking in disregard to duties of care to the truth and the right, hoping to profit by what is said or suggested being taken as true. (And yes, I just stated a definition of lying, which can be simplified to: calculated, willful deception . . . where, it is implied that one knows or should reasonably know and state, the truth.) The contrast between the radical redefinition of 2001 (patently rooted in the thought behind the declaration of 2000) and the [ultimately, failed] attempt to restore a more traditional and less ideologically loaded school level understanding of science . . . which now turns out to be a portent that points to the much broader imposition of NewSpeak and DoubleThink etc on law and society (e.g. consider legalistic and media games with marriage) . . . speaks volumes:
2001 Radical Re-Definition: “Science is the human activity of seeking natural explanations of the world around us.” 2005 More Traditional Definition: “Science is a systematic method of continuing investigation, that uses observation, hypothesis testing, measurement, experimentation, logical argument and theory building, to lead to more adequate explanations of natural phenomena.”
The agit-prop, media message dominance agenda that manipulated public opinion to reject the more traditional, more objective understanding, is utterly inexcusable. It is also a warning as to what has been going on and where it is headed as our civilisation is increasingly drawn into a suicidal march of folly. In that context, you are quite right to point out the ideological imposition, gross extrapolation from minor micro evolution to imagined proof of a grandiose metaphysically loaded and deeply question-begging narrative perceived as TRUTH and even as FACT (that term itself having been conveniently redefined). Let us hope there will be some willingness to wake up before it is too late. KF PS: Mapou, the design inference is a simple inductive inference from tested, empirically reliable sign per vera causa. Functionally specific, complex organisation and/or associated information (FSCO/I) has but one empirically reliable, observed cause, intelligently directed configuration. Once this point burns through the message dominance games, let the metaphysical chips lie where they fly. The major, and revolutionary, prediction is that such FSCO/I -- the relevant form of CSI, and which embraces relevant cases of irreducible complexity also -- will remain as a strong and reliable index of design as cause. This has direct implications for not only the world of life including OOL and origin of body plans (OOBP), but for origin of the cosmos and for the nature of mind. This last, once we put on the table the observation that computation on a relevant hardware substrate is a blind mechanical, non rational cause-effect process, and cannot in itself ground rational, responsible freedom based contemplation. Which last is the basis for rationality and for the credibility of knowledge. Haldane's challenge is pivotal:
"It seems to me immensely unlikely that mind is a mere by-product of matter. For if my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are true. They may be sound chemically, but that does not make them sound logically. And hence I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed of atoms. In order to escape from this necessity of sawing away the branch on which I am sitting, so to speak, I am compelled to believe that mind is not wholly conditioned by matter.” [["When I am dead," in Possible Worlds: And Other Essays [1927], Chatto and Windus: London, 1932, reprint, p.209.]
PPS: It seems the authentication test has become buggy kairosfocus
EA:
[Mapou: Please, let’s stick to the issues.]
Eric, My problem with this piece is that you continue to act as if Darwinists are somehow sincere in their beliefs and that they are not lying through their teeth and insulting the public's intelligence with their forked tongues. You are so wrong. Darwinists are under evil influence. It's time to stop pussyfooting around with that lying bunch. They've already taken over the schools and the mass media. Church sermons and Sunday schools don't stand a chance. It's also time for the ID camp to start making some serious biological predictions based on intelligence and design. But first ID researchers must get rid of all that religious and philosophical baggage they carry around with them. All that nonsense about the designer being a simple yet omniscient, omnipotent and altogether impossible mythical being straight out of medieval Church doctrine has got to go. It's 2015 for crying out loud. We have a better grip on logic nowadays. Mapou
Seversky: It is easy to complain with two words. I would like to hear the substance behind your comment. Feel free to explain how proponents of evolutionary theory so often go from an observation of a change in a population to "evolution is true" and "those who doubt evolution are wrong," if not via the steps I have outlined above. I am open to hearing how you think the conclusions are reached if not as I have outlined. The kind of thinking I have outlined in the OP is not rare, it is not an anomaly -- it is rampant in evolutionary thought. It is not a straw man. It is central to the whole rhetorical structure that supports the larger claims of the theory. Eric Anderson
This is a great thread. Well done. Hits bullseye. IT is about evidence and so the great claims of heaps of evidence for evolution. It is just lines of reasoning, true or not, from small steps equals great results. darwin said this in effect and said WHY NOT/ Yet its not scientific evidence. ITS LINES OF REASONING from data points. I say the biggest failure is the non existence of biological scientific evidence. SO why is it a biological theory? The evidences are about non biological stuff. Comparative anatomy, and genetics, fossils, biogeography, etc. Not actual gooey biological processes. just after fact data points. Exactly what a false idea in biology origins would look like!! ID thinkers make this mistake too. Fossils are not biology evidence except for that fossil. Cambrian explosion ID folks also stumble here. A wrong idea couldn't have evidence. IMpossible to have scientific evidence.. YES Evolutionism has survived because of failure to understand its lack of bio sci evidence.Everyone flopped on this. .Creationists should make a drumbeat about this. Robert Byers
Seversky:
Straw man.
Who pays you, Seversky? Whose butt do you kiss every day of the week? The bigger question is: How many butts do you have to kiss? :-D [Mapou: Please, let's stick to the issues.] Mapou
Straw man. Seversky
Many other "mindset" problems exist. Keynesian Economics works the same way: the true believers, who dominate government and academia, declare that everything supports it and nothing can refute it. The Global Warming guys are so obsessed with their crusade that they fake their data. And of course whatever happened to the AIDS epidemic that was going to kill off half the world? mahuna

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