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How we know evolution is true?

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BBC writer undermines own argument here:

First, when talking about evolution, author Chris Baraniuk chooses to defend precisely the theory of evolution that is most under fire just now, in serious intellectual terms: Darwinism

Darwin’s theory of evolution says that each new organism is subtly different from its parents, and these differences can sometimes help the offspring or impede it. As organisms compete for food and mates, those with the advantageous traits produce more offspring, while those with unhelpful traits may not produce any. So within a given population, advantageous traits become common and unhelpful ones disappear.

The problem is, in a constantly changing environment, “helpful” and “unhelpful” might not mean anything for long. So the theory amounts to “the survivors survive.”

That is a self-evident statement, not a mechanism.

Given enough time, these changes mount up and lead to the appearance of new species and new types of organism, one small change at a time. Step by step, worms became fish, fish came onto land and developed four legs, those four-legged animals grew hair and – eventually – some of them started walking around on two legs, called themselves “humans” and discovered evolution.

This can be hard to believe

It sure can. The rest of the article is about comparatively trivial changes that we are asked to believe demonstrate big changes (although human breeding can certainly make some dogs look weird. If nature teaches anything, it is that such oddities would not last long in the wilderness).

That has always been the problem with Darwinism. Darwinism seems like a fraudulent attempt to leave out the importance of the massive information inputs required for big changes. See Being as Communion.

By the way, why do Brits pay taxes for the BBC? Do they still need such government behemoths for anything, in the age of the Internet?

If Brits have money to burn, why aren’t they paying taxes for the support of cavalry horses as well?

Note: We face the same problem with the government broadcaster, the CBC, in Canada. There are signs around my own neighbourhood urging everyone to “support” the CBC, in this election year.

In the days when media behemoths were often useful, nobody put up a sign saying, “Support the weather forecast!” The Save the CBC campaign itself shows how much has changed.

Unnecessary institutions are often homes for out-of-date, never challenged, politically correct ideas that any mediocrity can make money off. They tend to retard, rather than advance, discussion by fronting out-of-date “truths” to the public.

I am sure glad evolution isn’t key current news. Some issues are, and are probably treated the same way.

Look, I (O’Leary for News) am not disputing evolution happens. Dam, I owe one of my editors another column on the subject. It’ll be on horizontal gene transfer, which is, I am glad to say, demonstrable.

See also: Evolution: The fossils speak, but hardly with one voice

and Evolution appears to converge on goals—but in Darwinian terms, is that possible?
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Comments
Dr JDD:
Mutations : when benefits level off – June 2011 – (Lenski’s e-coli after 50,000 generations) Excerpt: After having identified the first five beneficial mutations combined successively and spontaneously in the bacterial population, the scientists generated, from the ancestral bacterial strain, 32 mutant strains exhibiting all of the possible combinations of each of these five mutations. They then noted that the benefit linked to the simultaneous presence of five mutations was less than the sum of the individual benefits conferred by each mutation individually. http://www2.cnrs.fr/en/1867.htm?theme1=7 "More than 6 percent of genes found in humans simply aren't found in any form in chimpanzees. There are over fourteen hundred novel genes expressed in humans but not in chimps." Jerry Coyne - ardent and 'angry' neo-Darwinist - professor at the University of Chicago in the department of ecology and evolution for twenty years. He specializes in evolutionary genetics. Genes from nowhere: Orphans with a surprising story - 16 January 2013 - Helen Pilcher Excerpt: When biologists began sequencing genomes they discovered up to a third of genes in each species seemed to have no parents or family of any kind. Nevertheless, some of these "orphan genes" are high achievers (are just as essential as 'old' genes),,, As the French biologist Francois Jacob wrote 35 years ago, "the probability that a functional protein would appear de novo by random association of amino acids is practically zero".,,, Orphan genes have since been found in every genome sequenced to date, from mosquito to man, roundworm to rat, and their numbers are still growing. http://ccsb.dfci.harvard.edu/web/export/sites/default/ccsb/publications/papers/2013/All_alone_-_Helen_Pilcher_New_Scientist_Jan_2013.pdf
bornagain77
August 7, 2015
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"Beneficial mutations" Where the vast majority are breaking of existing genes that are of benefit as it is is growing in defined restricted non-wt conditions. Again, like all Darwinists you seem to correlate changes in existing genes that aren't novel information as scaling up to the arisal of complex novel proteins and pathways. How do you know what has happened in 1m years to humans? Got some dna sequence to show that no new proteins evolved in that time frame? How many new proteins in humans are not in chimps? Is it more than 20? If so, we should have at least seen 1-2 novel proteins arise in these experiments. It's actually amazing that people can criticise those who choose to reject UCD with this sort of evidence being the best for demonstrating macroevolution.Dr JDD
August 7, 2015
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Zach states:
Dr JDD: But this into perspective: how many generations have there been (In Lenski's e-coli)? 55,000? Thats 1.1m years in human generations (with far more progeny I assume). Zach: Humans haven’t changed biologically all that much in a million years.
Well zach, just how long do you think we will have to wait before we declare Darwinian evolution to be bunk pseudo-science? Is 250 million years long enough for you to wait? Is 3.48 billion years long enough?
The Paradox of the "Ancient" (250 Million Year Old) Bacterium Which Contains "Modern" Protein-Coding Genes: “Almost without exception, bacteria isolated from ancient material have proven to closely resemble modern bacteria at both morphological and molecular levels.” Heather Maughan*, C. William Birky Jr., Wayne L. Nicholson, William D. Rosenzweig§ and Russell H. Vreeland ; http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/19/9/1637 Static evolution: is pond scum the same now as billions of years ago? Excerpt: But what intrigues (paleo-biologist) J. William Schopf most is lack of change. Schopf was struck 30 years ago by the apparent similarities between some 1-billion-year-old fossils of blue-green bacteria and their modern microbial counterparts. "They surprisingly looked exactly like modern species," Schopf recalls. Now, after comparing data from throughout the world, Schopf and others have concluded that modern pond scum differs little from the ancient blue-greens. "This similarity in morphology is widespread among fossils of [varying] times," says Schopf. As evidence, he cites the 3,000 such fossils found; http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Static+evolution%3A+is+pond+scum+the+same+now+as+billions+of+years+ago%3F-a014909330 Scientists discover organism that hasn't evolved in more than 2 billion years - February 3, 2015 Excerpt: Using cutting-edge technology, they found that the bacteria look the same as bacteria of the same region from 2.3 billion years ago -- and that both sets of ancient bacteria are indistinguishable from modern sulfur bacteria found in mud off of the coast of Chile. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/02/150203104131.htm Geobiologist Noffke Reports Signs of Life that Are 3.48 Billion Years Old - 11/11/13 Excerpt: the mats woven of tiny microbes we see today covering tidal flats were also present as life was beginning on Earth. The mats, which are colonies of cyanobacteria, can cause unusual textures and formations in the sand beneath them. Noffke has identified 17 main groups of such textures caused by present-day microbial mats, and has found corresponding structures in geological formations dating back through the ages. http://www.odu.edu/about/odu-publications/insideodu/2013/11/11/topstory1
And Zach, if there is no amount of time that is long enough for you ever to say that Darwinism is falsified, just what makes you think that Darwinism is a science instead of a pseudo-science?
Confusing Fantasy with Science - Kirk Durston - August 3, 2015 Excerpt: So what is the solution? As I proposed earlier, a return to the scientific method. As Silk and Ellis put it: "In our view, the issue boils down to clarifying one question: what potential observational or experimental evidence is there that would persuade you that the theory is wrong and lead you to abandoning it? If there is none, it is not a scientific theory." http://www.evolutionnews.org/2015/08/confusing_fanta098221.html Pauli’s ideas on mind and matter in the context of contemporary science - Harald Atmanspacher Excerpt: “In discussions with biologists I met large difficulties when they apply the concept of ‘natural selection’ in a rather wide field, without being able to estimate the probability of the occurrence in a empirically given time of just those events, which have been important for the biological evolution. Treating the empirical time scale of the evolution theoretically as infinity they have then an easy game, apparently to avoid the concept of purposesiveness. While they pretend to stay in this way completely ‘scientific’ and ‘rational,’ they become actually very irrational, particularly because they use the word ‘chance’, not any longer combined with estimations of a mathematically defined probability, in its application to very rare single events more or less synonymous with the old word ‘miracle.’” Wolfgang Pauli (pp. 27-28) http://www.igpp.de/english/tda/pdf/paulijcs8.pdf
bornagain77
August 7, 2015
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Dr JDD: What most contest is new information and complexity with novel proteins and novel folds in novel pathways performing novel functions. If you want to unravel changes that have occurred over geological timescales, then start with the evidence for common descent, which provides the historical context. Dr JDD: But this into perspective: how many generations have there been? 55,000? Thats 1.1m years in human generations (with far more progeny I assume). Humans haven't changed biologically all that much in a million years. Dr JDD: And all we have is a complex gene duplication event. Actually, there have been many different beneficial mutations. Dr JDD: no new functions not already present. Well, you can say it's not a new function, but if you could consume a new food source, while everyone else starved, then you would not consider it non-functional. Dr JDD: And presumably with less restriction or detrimental effects given generation time and being a single celled organism. Actually, bacteria have a highly optimized genome, so there is much less available variation to play with than in eukaryotes. In addition, they started with clones, and the environment was highly restricted.Zachriel
August 7, 2015
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Zachriel: People believe in evolution. Virtually all IDers and even YECs believe in it. What most contest is new information and complexity with novel proteins and novel folds in novel pathways performing novel functions. THAT is what has never been demonstrated. Put this into perspective: how many generations have there been? 55,000? Thats 1.1m years in human generations (with far more progeny I assume). That's 1/6 perhaps of the time of divergence from the LUCA of chimps and humans. And all we have is a complex gene duplication event. No orfan genes, no new pathways, no new functions not already present. And presumably with less restriction or detrimental effects given generation time and being a single celled organism. Yeah, that makes sense.Dr JDD
August 7, 2015
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cornucopian: The two FCTs comprising the oxygen tolerant citrate transporter locus — the promoter and the gene — were functional before the duplication and functional after.” In fact, the research showed that it required potentiating mutations before the duplication event, then was followed by further, optimizing mutations.Zachriel
August 7, 2015
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Is it too difficult to show how a new complex structure evolves? I used to believe in evolution after reading about colored moths, supposed transitional fossils, miller's experiment and vestigial structures. I think I had a sudden moment of clarity when I was in the animal phys class. I simply couldn't believe all the beautiful, elegant biochemistry could come by an accident. Evolution gets funding from the state and propaganda support from the media(BBC). They could simply put an end to ID by showing how the flagellum could evolve in a realistic manner. I don't have a problem if evolution is true. I simply don't see the evidence.cornucopian
August 7, 2015
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This recent Behe video is worth a repost: Michael Behe - Observed (1 in 10^20) Limits of Evolution - video - Lecture delivered in April 2015 at Colorado School of Mines 25:56 minute quote - "This is not an argument anymore that Darwinism cannot make complex functional systems; it is an observation that it does not." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9svV8wNUqvA relevant Feynman quote: The Scientific Method – Richard Feynman – video Quote: ‘If it disagrees with experiment, it’s wrong. In that simple statement is the key to science. It doesn’t make any difference how beautiful your guess is, it doesn’t matter how smart you are who made the guess, or what his name is… If it disagrees with experiment, it’s wrong. That’s all there is to it.” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OL6-x0modwYbornagain77
August 7, 2015
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What exactly happened? Nothing new. Behe writes - "It turns out that the bacterium is lacking only a protein to transport citrate into the cell in the presence of oxygen; all other enzymes needed to further metabolize citrate are already present. The gene for the citrate transporter, citT, that works in the absence of oxygen is directly upstream from the genes for two other proteins that have promoters that are active in the presence of oxygen. A duplication of a segment of this region serendipitously placed the citT gene next to one of these promoters, so the citT gene could then be expressed in the presence of oxygen. The gene duplication which brought an oxygen-tolerant promoter near to the citT gene did not make any new functional element. Rather, it simply duplicated existing features. The two FCTs comprising the oxygen tolerant citrate transporter locus -- the promoter and the gene -- were functional before the duplication and functional after." Natural selection can bring such small changes. I simply don't see how it helped fishes turn to monkeys.cornucopian
August 7, 2015
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http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9696764 Hi Box - that is precisely my point. Nothing new. Not a new protein, not a new promotorjust a new way to arrange those things which is evolution (and no one denies evolution) but importantly it is microevolution and not novel proteins arising with new functionality which is even worse than more complex microevolution that could happen. I don't blame Seversky - like I said this is the usual deception that comes from this camp, and the BBC have demonstrated this very well. It fools a lot of people but it is pure deception. Each coli can metabolise citrate - they have the necessary machinery already present (see link above).Dr JDD
August 7, 2015
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cornucopian: What exactly happened? A repressor was broken during his experiment and it enabled the bacteria to utilize citrate during the presence of Oxygen. No. There were at least two potentiating mutations, then a duplication in tandem resulting in two copies that are head-to-tail with respect to each other, putting the duplicate under the control of a different promoter, followed by additional mutations to optimize the structure. Blount et al., Genomic analysis of a key innovation in an experimental Escherichia coli population, Nature 2012. cornucopian: Behe writes: Behe, Experimental Evolution, Loss-of-Function Mutations and ‘The First Rule of Adaptive Evolution’, Quarterly Review of Biology 2010: “If the phenotype is due to one or more mutations that result in, for example, the addition of a novel genetic regulatory element, gene-duplication with sequence divergence, or the gain of a new binding site, then it will be a noteworthy gain-of-FCT mutation.” This was multiple potentiating mutations, plus a gene duplication with sequence divergence, plus a novel genetic regulatory element; hence it is a "noteworthy gain-of-FCT mutation" per Behe.Zachriel
August 7, 2015
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Dr JDD: Take for example the section devoted to Lenski’s E coli experiments. Flat out deceptions are rife as per usual as we are told they evolved a completely new ability to metabolise citrate!
In an earlier thread Joe summed it up perfectly: "It is a duplicate of an existing gene that was placed under the control of an existing regulatory system."Box
August 7, 2015
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Seversky: So are you maintaining that the E coli could not metabolise citrate under any conditions prior to this? Just to reiterate - they could not metabolise it at all before this mutation? Are you maintaining this position?Dr JDD
August 7, 2015
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Yes its hard to believe. ut should be on evidence. Selection is a option and fine within kind, Yet the glory of evolution is in mutationism./ They beed those mutants to twist dna info into something quite different. This is a case of what evolution is not. its not natural/sexual selection. its mutations bringing important new/changed information for selection to work. Evolution is not natural selection supersized. Its an error. Its against common sense to imagine diversity in a population leading to a very different kind of population. Noth colours has nothing to do with the great claims of evolution.Robert Byers
August 6, 2015
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Seversky, Why should folks have to pay for something they don't watch? There are many who hate the BBC and still want to have a TV. Is it too much to ask? You are making too much out of Lenski's experiment. Nothing new about it. E.coli have the ability to use citrate. They don't do it in the presence of Oxygen. What exactly happened? A repressor was broken during his experiment and it enabled the bacteria to utilize citrate during the presence of Oxygen. Was a new function gained? No. Why is it portrayed as a new function? Because Darwinism is a religious belief that rests on wishful thinking. If I remove the seats and air conditioner of my car, the car will accelerate faster and be more fuel efficient. However, most sane people would not think my car suddenly gained some new magical function. Behe writes: "breaking or diminishing subsystems of an exceedingly complex entity such as the cell can sometimes be adaptive -- causing the degradation to spread, as Richard Lenski's pioneering Long Term Evolution project has demonstrated so clearly. Other studies of degradative adaptation in nature strongly reinforce this point. (For example, see recent reports about loss-of-function genetic resistance to diabetes and heart disease in humans, gaitedness in horses, loss of cyanogenesis in clover, and a plethora of helpful broken genes in bacteria".cornucopian
August 6, 2015
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cornucopian @ 8
The BBC is taxpayer funded. Even if you don’t watch tv, you are paying for it.
In the UK, you pay the licence fee if you own a TV. No TV, no licence fee. In the US, commercial TV is funded from advertising revenue. The advertising budgets of the advertisers are built in to the price of their goods. If you buy their goods, you are paying for TV whether you watch it or not.Seversky
August 6, 2015
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Dr JDD @ 7
Take for example the section devoted to Lenski’s E coli experiments. Flat out deceptions are rife as per usual as we are told they evolved a completely new ability to metabolise citrate! What actually happened is pretty impressive but in no way is a gain of novel information nor does it prove macro evolution. Far from it especially when every other mutant is loss of wt function. This is not science, this is religion.
The first few thousand generations of Lenki’s E Coli bacteria had no ability to metabolize citrates. Then they did. They evolved a function that they did not possess before. I’d say that’s new. It emerged and spread to the general population of that colony in the presence of citrates in the environment. Entirely consistent with the theory of evolution. Does it prove macro-evolution? It is evidence of a process that must exist if evolution is to happen at all so, to that extent, yes it is. This is science of the highest order. Religion doesn’t come into it.Seversky
August 6, 2015
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JDD, Exactly. There is nothing unique about the experiment. There was no gain of function. The Darwinists will argue that a new function arose. The word function to me means improvement or an ability to do something better. They don't see it that way. Blowing up a bridge to save an island from the invading army might seem like an accomplishment. A week later, people are starving without food because the bridge was the only way by which food can be brought to the island. Darwinists are like the idiots that blew up the only bridge that connected them to mainland. This is their gain of function. Brilliant.cornucopian
August 6, 2015
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The TV license is imposed on hotels, hospitals, clubs, shops, offices and many other commercial establishments. The owners simply pass on the fee to their clients or customers. The BBC is taxpayer funded. Even if you don't watch tv, you are paying for it. http://www.tvlicensing.co.uk/check-if-you-need-onecornucopian
August 6, 2015
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I read this article the other day and laughed. Once again the usual tripe from biased reporting cling to be science. Take for example the section devoted to Lenski's E coli experiments. Flat out deceptions are rife as per usual as we are told they evolved a completely new ability to metabolise citrate! What actually happened is pretty impressive but in no way is a gain of novel information nor does it prove macro evolution. Far from it especially when every other mutant is loss of wt function. This is not science, this is religion.Dr JDD
August 6, 2015
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Wikipedia:
The BBC is established under a Royal Charter[8] and operates under its Agreement with the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport.[9] Its work is funded principally by an annual television licence fee[10] which is charged to all British households, companies, and organisations using any type of equipment to receive or record live television broadcasts.[11] The fee is set by the British Government, agreed by Parliament,[12] and used to fund the BBC's extensive radio, TV, and online services covering the nations and regions of the UK. From 1 April 2014 it also funds the BBC World Service, launched in 1932, which provides comprehensive TV, radio, and online services in Arabic, and Persian, and broadcasts in 28 languages.
Looks very much like the BBC, a propaganda outfit for atheism, materialism and Darwinism, is getting free money from the public. [Edit: I forgot to mention global warming alarmism, oops! I mean, climate change alarmism.]Mapou
August 6, 2015
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A license fee is a form of tax. People who don't watch BBC have to pay the license fee.cornucopian
August 6, 2015
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By the way, why do Brits pay taxes for the BBC?
Err, we don't. It's funded through a licence fee, which you only pay if you have a TV.Bob O'H
August 6, 2015
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The answer is obvious. It is false. It is a religious world view hiding behind science. Despite spending millions, there is hardly anything to show for it. Coyne, Dawkins and the other militant types are old farts who are approaching their expiry dates. Once these fanatics die, it will be possible to talk about evolution in a reasonable manner. It is an ideological cult like stalinism. It will eventually fade and collapse. As western countries decline, science will shift to the east and it might be possible to criticize evolution. Much of the western decline can be attributed to secularism so these idiots are shooting themselves in the foot. The future is bright for anti-evolutionists in certain parts of the world. The secular folks will simply die because the future belongs to those who show up for it. In the UK, darwin vs Islam is an inevitable reality. Most muslims will not accept evolution. The politically correct folks will pander to Islam. The funny thing is that Darwinists are largely responsible for what is happening in the UK. By attacking Christianity, they have replaced it with much a stronger force. No serious imam will accept evolution. The taxpayer funded BBC too will pander to Islam and that means evolution will be given the middle finger. LOL. Expect outright Islamic creationism in British textbooks in the coming years. Darwinism will be dead in the land of Darwin.cornucopian
August 6, 2015
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Richard Feynman argued that a scientific theory can never be proved to be true - it can only be proven false. Jerry Coyne is no Feynman. "Evolution is True" would be better stated as "Evolution Theory has not been proven False". Or better yet, the latest version of Evo Theory has not been proven false.ppolish
August 6, 2015
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It is a fact free theory where evidence is selectively cherry picked. Arguments from theology, evil and metaphysics are used. The eye was a case of bad design for a long time. Today, it shows the wonderful ability of natural selection. Why would the designer design the malaria parasite? The whole theory of evolution more or less rests on some questionable common descent and wishful imagination. Why are taxpayers paying for this crap? How else can you push PC conformism? The cultural elites that run broadcasting companies use the power of conformism to shape views and ideas. The BBC stopped being an objective news broadcaster long time ago.cornucopian
August 6, 2015
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