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Is OOL Part of Darwinian Evolution?

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Recently I had a lengthy discussion with an acquaintance about evolution and the various concepts and claims that we find under the heading of the word “evolution.”  At one point I brought up the origin of life and he promptly insisted: “that’s not part of evolution.”

“Perhaps,” I offered, “but consider that the origin of life is generally included under the heading of ‘evolution’ in biology textbooks, complete with optimistic discussions about the famous experiment by Stanley Miller and Harold Urey.”

“Furthermore,” I continued, “researchers have long talked about ‘chemical evolution’ in relation to the origin of life.  What do they mean by ‘evolution’ in that context, if the origin of life is not part of evolution?”  Indeed, although Darwin did not address the origin of life in The Origin, he did speculate in other writings about the idea of chemical evolution, and it forms an important part of the origins narrative for many people.

“Still, it isn’t part of evolution,” he insisted.

The Issue

I have seen this insistence on many occasions.  There may be some who sincerely think a bright-line distinction needs to be drawn on logical grounds.  But in my experience the primary reasons Darwinists insist that abiogenesis is not part of evolutionary theory are the following:

First, abiogenesis is an incredibly difficult problem, one that every rational person acknowledges is nearly intractable under a naturalistic scenario, with only a faint glimmer of hope on the distant horizon.  As a result, from a tactical standpoint it seems better to keep this most difficult problem at bay – neatly and distantly compartmentalized as its own separate problem, rather than tainting the “overwhelming evidence” in favor of evolution.

Second, Darwinists have a very firm sense in their mind that once reproduction is on the scene then anything can happen.  Darwin himself took this approach in The Origin when he talked of evolution taking over once life had been “breathed . . . into a few forms or into one”.  Indeed, the very theory that Darwin put forward is often characterized by the fundamental description of “descent with modification.”  Thus, there is a very palpable belief in the Darwinist mind that once reproduction comes along, the magic of mutation and selection can take over and the problem of biology is well on its way to being solved.*

Beyond the musings of Darwin, Oparin and Haldane, none other than Richard Dawkins has suggested that once we get a self-replicating molecule, then the mutation-selection mechanism can take over and evolution can kick in.  Thus, the real problem in the origin of life, the first lucky step, as Dawkins notes is “the origin of the first accurately self-replicating molecule.”

I asked my acquaintance if he agreed with Dawkins that once we have a self-replicating molecule in place, that Darwinian evolution can take over.  He enthusiastically agreed, although acknowledging that the first tender self-replicator would need a safe environment in which to flourish.  (He also insisted that scientists have created such a self-replicating molecule in the lab, but backed down when I asked for details and once he realized I was familiar with Jack Szostak’s good work at Harvard.)

All of this creates a rather interesting conundrum for the faithful Darwinist who recognizes at least some of the challenges with abiogenesis.  Now that the cards are on the table as to what people like Darwin, Oparin, and Dawkins think (or at least hope to be true) we can bring some logic to bear on the subject.

The Options

There are three logical options available to the faithful Darwinist:

1. Agree with Dawkins that the initiating requirement for Darwinian evolution is a self-replicating molecule and that Darwinian evolution can kick in at that early stage of biology. Then conveniently redefine the first self-replicating molecule as the first form of “life”.  In this case Darwinian evolution can take over at this stage and one can still argue that Darwinian evolution only deals with living organisms and doesn’t have to address the origin of this first “life”.  This has some logical convenience, but is very difficult to sustain in practice.  After all, essentially all origin of life researchers take the view that first “life” is more than just a single self-replicating molecule, and they also sense the need for the additional requirements outlined in #2 below.  Furthermore, if one adopts this #1 approach and also happens to mistakenly believe (as do so many people) that self-replicating molecules have been produced in the lab, then one is arguing that the origin of life has largely been solved, a view that is at odds with every serious researcher looking into the issue.

2. Agree with Dawkins that the initiating requirement for Darwinian evolution is a self-replicating molecule and that Darwinian evolution can kick in at that early stage of biology. However, recognize that an initial living organism is much more than a single self-replicating molecule, and that additional factors are required to produce first “life”, which may include a functional membrane, working metabolic pathways, information-bearing molecules, and perhaps other properties.

This is a very common view, likely the most common view, certainly among those who would tend to agree with Dawkins. But the logical upshot of this view is that the origin of life, the process that starts with a self-replicating molecule and culminates in the first functional primitive form of life falls squarely within the framework of Darwinian evolution.  Thus, on this view it is absolutely incorrect to insist that the origin of life is “not part of evolution” and that Darwinian evolution need not explain it.  To the contrary, Darwinian evolution must explain the origin of life from this first self-replicating molecule, and cannot even get off the ground without it.

3. Disagree with Dawkins that Darwinian evolution can kick in with a self-replicating molecule. Recognize that something beyond self-replication is needed, such as the items outlined in #2, before Darwinian evolution can kick in.  This approach (like #2 and contrary to #1) has the benefit of being consistent with what origin of life researchers are actually working on.  This also has the benefit of separating the thorny origin of life challenges from the broader claims of evolution, because Darwinian evolution would only kick in at a later stage when “life” actually comes on the scene.

But at the same time this raises questions about the Darwinian mechanism: If not self-replication, then what is it exactly that causes Darwinian evolution to start?  Is there a certain level of complex functional specification required before mutation and selection can kick in?  Is there a prior need for information content and translating protocols – an information content, retrieval, and translation process – before evolution can start?  This #3 also means that Darwinian evolution, the near-mystical process of variation plus selection, can be of no help in going from a self-replicating molecule to the first living organism or in addressing the items required for the origin of life.

The Upshot

So for those who argue for a naturalistic origin of life scenario, which is it?  Which of the three** approaches do you prefer?

—–

*  This is nonsense, of course, not only because the mutation-selection mechanism is largely impotent, but also because the reproduction aspect brings far less to the table than evolutionists would like to think.  That is a topic for another time.  (Note also that the idea of reproduction arising at the beginning of the evolutionary process is severely problematic for the evolutionary story, as detailed here.)

** There is fourth option available, but most Darwinists will never consider it, as it strikes at the very heart of Darwin’s theory.  Namely:

4. Agree with Dawkins that the initiating requirement for Darwinian evolution is a self-replicating molecule and that Darwinian evolution can kick in at that early stage of biology. However, recognize that it isn’t going to do much of anything and will never solve the origin of life problem or produce a living organism because the mutation-selection mechanism is essentially impotent as a creative force.

Comments
john_a_designer @23: Sounds like a great endeavor! I think someone here previously linked to a fair amount of work that has been done by space enthusiasts on that very endeavor: creating a self-replicating machine that could be sent to a barren planet. It actually turns out, once they started looking into the details, that they would need a whole suite of machines -- everything from exploring to mining to manufacturing to repairing. All working in coordinated functionality. I'll see if I can scare up the link and post it . . .Eric Anderson
June 28, 2017
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If Meyer is right, that the inference to the best explanation for the Cambrian Explosion and the complexity of the cell is design, it may be that design is the inference to the only explanation for the origin of life. Which may or may not become clear as science progresses "one funeral at a time."jstanley01
June 28, 2017
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[The following is something that I have written a couple times before, on other threads, which I think is worth is repeating here.]
The origin of life is like the origin of the universe. It appears to be a singular, non-repeating, highly improbable event which occurred very early in earth’s history. Furthermore all the clues of how and why it occurred have been lost. But then added to that problem are other problems: how does chemistry create code? What is required to create an autonomously self-replicating system which has the possibility of evolving into something more complex? The naturalist/ materialist then compounds the problem by demanding a priori that the origin of life must be completely natural-- undirected without an intelligent plan or purpose. That seems like it was a miracle… Well, maybe it was. But a completely “naturalistic miracle” seems to be an absurd self-defeating claim for the naturalist/materialist to make. One of my pipe dreams as a real life (now retired) machine designer is to design a self-replicating machine or automata-- the kind that was first envisioned by mathematician John von Neumann. My vision is not a machine that could replicate itself from already existing parts but a machine-- well actually machines-- which could replicate themselves from raw material they would find on a rocky planet in some distant star system. One practical advantage of such machines is they could be sent out in advance some far-in-the-distant-future expedition to terraform a suitable planet in another star system preparing it for colonist who might arrive centuries or millennia later. By analogy, that is what the first living cells which originated on the early earth had to do. Even the simplest prokaryote cell is on the sub-cellular level a collection of machines networked together to replicate the whole system. To suggest that somehow the first cell emerged by some fortuitous accident is betray an ignorance how really complex primitive cells are. Try thinking this through on a more macro level, as I have described above, and I think you will begin to appreciate how really daunting the problem is.
john_a_designer
June 28, 2017
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rv complaining to EA about tone is a scene cut from the Twilight Zone.Upright BiPed
June 28, 2017
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Darwinian evolution is wholly linked to the Origin of Life; they both require the same physical mechanism (symbolic memory and translation) in order to come into being. Without the capacity to specify something among alternatives, neither Darwinian evolution nor the organization of the living cell is even possible.Upright BiPed
June 28, 2017
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rvb8: If you re-read the OP, you'll notice that I never brought up "supernaturalism" (whatever that is). I didn't bring up an alternate theory. I didn't even mention design. We could certainly have a conversation about those things, but the OP is focused on the naturalistic narrative and some basic logical issues that flow from that narrative. You have so far studiously avoided the questions posed in the OP, and have instead jumped in, guns blazing and fists swinging, with crude insinuations that you are on the side of "science" and with laughable assertions about how "obvious" it is that naturalistic abiogenesis is true (hint: take a lesson from Seversky's much more measured and rational tone). It is clear that you are out of your depth on this issue, that you don't have a lot of understanding of origin of life research, that you haven't taken the time or put in the intellectual effort to analyze the science. That's fine. Everyone needs to start somewhere. But you might consider next time (a) actually addressing the point of the OP, and (b) pausing to think about what you are saying (better yet, even studying up a bit) before jumping into unfamiliar territory with guns blazing. ----- In an effort to again bring your attention back to the OP, since you have rejected #2, which option do you prefer #1 or #3?Eric Anderson
June 28, 2017
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Seversky @6:
There is, as yet, no naturalistic account of how life might have emerged from inanimate matter . . .
Quite true, and I appreciate your honesty.
. . . although that does not mean that one is not possible.
Sure. It's possible, as a matter of sheer logic. Just like it's possible that the Sun will cease shining today at noon or that gravity will fail tonight at midnight or that we're all just brains in a jar in a lab. But in rational science we don't deal with sheer logical possibilities. We have to deal with rational and realistic possibilities. Things that have a reasonable chance of being true. Things that are consistent with our understanding of chemistry and physics and with what we know about the cause and effect relationships in the real world. It would be nice to have a naturalistic theory that is likely true, but let's start with a lower bar and require at least a reasonable -- not a wild, unsupported, sheer speculative fantasy -- but a reasonable reason to think that life can emerge from inanimate matter through purely naturalistic means. Then we would still have to analyze the details to see if a naturalistic scenario is the best answer. But let's at least get over the initial hurdle of something reasonable.Eric Anderson
June 28, 2017
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rvb8: OOL obviously came about randomly via the interaction of naturally occuring chemicals fuelled by energy that was present, heat, ultra violet light,static electricity, magma etc. If it is so obvious, go ahead and give us a blow by blow account of how it happened at the molecular level. Thanks.mike1962
June 28, 2017
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--"What has your ‘supernatural’ position ever proven? Except of course when allied to faith, then it proves absolutely everything."-- The "supernatural position" is an end not a means. Observing events, thinking about them and striving to duplicate them in controlled settings is a means not an end and one that actually leads to "the supernatural position" if one is open minded. That all ultimately has a natural cause is a faith statement. It's actually anti-science in that it presumes an answer without being able to demonstrate it. Actually it's full-blown delusion when the claim is denied as being faith --something one believes but can't demonstrate.tribune7
June 28, 2017
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rvb8: They are trying and the advances in bio-engineering produce more and more possible tracks for origins.
Bold mine. You write our arguments for us!
You mock my simple statement that chemicals plus energy is enough? Why? These two combined have already produced more than twenty amino acids, and other organic molecules.
Really? I'm going to hazard a guess that you have never actually read any of the ID literature or you wouldn't have come back with that one. Be bold and know your opponents strongest arguments. Question your assumptions. I know it messes with your materialist metaphysic but if your wrong about that it might cost you more than your willing to pay.Latemarch
June 28, 2017
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Rvb8 Perhaps "the tone" you are picking up on is simply in response to the hostile, rude and dismissive attitude many of "us" have experienced when dealing with the darwin-faithful? Also, shifting the burden of proof is unacceptable. It is you lot, the darwin-faithful that are trying to convince the world to accept silly antiquated ideas reworked by a confused and terribly conflicted man 150+ years ago. Darwin clearly suffered mental health issues (well documented) and his work, theories, conclusions etc. are evidence of this. "You lot" are expecting "us" to turn off the critical thinking centers of our brains and accept a theory that runs contrary to common sense and defies all logic and reason. Further, contrary to Darwinist claims, there exists NO scientific proof whatsoever supporting the ageing Victorian theory. No, your position is one of faith...in light of the above the burden is on "you lot" to prove "us" wrong. Your second last sentence "These two combined have already produced more than twenty amino acids, and other organic molecules." only serves to prove you obviously haven't given all of this much thought. Do you not recognize the highly calibrated and finely tuned constants required to jump start life in the first place? That nothing (NO-THING) existed in the NOTHINGNESS? No laws, no forces, no energies, no chemicals NOTHING existed. If nothing existed nothing was able to interact with nothing let alone combine and / or interact to create what we recognize as the known universe along with all that is in it. You should re-read your last sentence as well. It is plainly obvious to me that it explains your position better than "ours". It is your belief system that has never been proven and it is your belief system that requires extreme blind faith in order to work your theories.humbled
June 28, 2017
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EA, I'm just annoyed at the tone. You imply it is evolutionary biologists that must answer these questions. They are trying and the advances in bio-engineering produce more and more possible tracks for origins. But you're wrong' It is the creationists/IDists that have the heaviest burden of proof. It is your claim to supernauralism that must truly be proven; and let's face it, how can you materialistically prove that wich is beyond-natural, indeed super natural. You mock my simple statement that chemicals plus energy is enough? Why? These two combined have already produced more than twenty amino acids, and other organic molecules. What has your 'supernatural' position ever proven? Except of course when allied to faith, then it proves absolutely everything.rvb8
June 27, 2017
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Seversky @6:
The problem is that any proposed Designer or Creator faces at least as many problems as a naturalistic account so it doesn’t get us any further forward.
What does this mean? Are you claiming that an intelligent designer can't produce things any more readily than what could be produced by purely natural causes? Like the computer you are typing on or the screen you are looking at? Why would you think that a designer faces "at least as many problems" as a naturalistic account in producing a complex, functionally-integrated, information-rich system? Designers do it all the time. Undirected natural processes have never, not once in all of history, been observed to do it. Color me skeptical, but it seems the main "problem" facing a designer is that a designer isn't palatable to certain philosophical positions. ----- Specifically, in the present context, all the progress, if we can call it that, in origin of life research to date is attributable to the efforts of the designers -- selecting just the right molecules, preparing specific substrates, purifying reactions, studiously preventing interfering cross reactions, carefully protecting the nascent enzymes, and so on. If your only point is that a designer would have to overcome the natural tendency of matter to not self-organize into a living system, then sure. But if your claim is that a designer would have no more ability to build such a system than random, blind chemical reactions, then no, such a claim is blatantly false.Eric Anderson
June 27, 2017
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You have a theory that life (and everything) can come about without design. That is the theory that opponents of ID defend regardless of what they call it or how they break it down in segments. Just about everyone on this board accepts that random genetic changes occur in nature and that these changes can be fixed via natural selection. Is that the Theory of Evolution? Then what are we arguing about? Is it the claim that all life can from a single common ancestor and changed without design but the single common ancestor was designed? I don't think so. The theory on the table that is being defended for the glory of nihilism is that everything came about without design. That's what the focus should be on.tribune7
June 27, 2017
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rvb8: And so, like my acquaintance, you assert that the origin of life is not part of evolution. So please allow yourself to take the next logical step, rather than just repeating mindless platitudes about chemical reactions being fueled by energy . . . Do you agree with Dawkins that a self-replicating molecule kicks off Darwinian evolution (in which case you define a self-replicating molecule as "life"), or do you disagree with Dawkins and think that significantly more is required? Which is it #1 or #3?Eric Anderson
June 27, 2017
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Seversky @6: Thanks for your comment.
No, it is not . . .
So in that case do you more closely identify with #1 or #3.Eric Anderson
June 27, 2017
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If life was designed and was designed to evolve does that have any impact on evolution? If so it would seem they are inextricably connected.es58
June 27, 2017
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The tone of this post is interesting. EA had a discussion with an 'acquiantance', and the acquiantance, 'promptly isisted: "that's not part of evolution." The acquinatance is correct of course, evolution is merely a scathingly clear description of how change occurs in the natural world, not how that life first appeared. It's not so much the implication that EA's interlocutor was defensive, but more so that EA thinks materialists are defensive about this claim at all. I'm not. OOL obviously came about randomly via the interaction of naturally occuring chemicals fuelled by energy that was present, heat, ultra violet light,static electricity, magma etc. So, EA, I, unlike your acquiantance don't defensively say, 'that's not part of evolution', I say, 'that's not part of evolution, but your alternative origins tale, is just that, a tale, mine at least has solid science to back it up.'rvb8
June 27, 2017
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It's as if Seversky accepts as truth anything uttered by the Darwin Oracle.Mung
June 27, 2017
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Is OOL Part of Darwinian Evolution?
No, it is not but that has no bearing on the theory of evolution. As Darwin himself wrote in the third edition of On The Origin of Species:
…it is no valid objection that science as yet throws no light on the far higher problem of the essence or origin of life.
... and later in a letter to Joseph Hooker:
…it is mere rubbish thinking, at present, of origin of life; one might as well think of origin of matter
I don't think that anyone would disagree with the position that the origin of life is a much harder question than the origin of species. There is, as yet, no naturalistic account of how life might have emerged from inanimate matter although that does not mean that one is not possible. The problem is that any proposed Designer or Creator faces at least as many problems as a naturalistic account so it doesn't get us any further forward.Seversky
June 27, 2017
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What are the minimal requirements for Darwinian evolution to occur seems to be an element of the theory not accounted for by the theory.Mung
June 27, 2017
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Thanks, Otangelo, for the comments. From the quotes you provided, it looks like Davies and rationalwiki are going with Dawkins and hoping for a self-replicating molecule that can kick off Darwinian selection, along the lines of Options #1 or #2. Koonin, Furusawa, Vaneechoutte, and NY Acad seem to be suggesting that something more is required, along the lines of Option #3, and that a self-replicating molecule by itself isn't sufficient for Darwinian evolution to take hold.Eric Anderson
June 27, 2017
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The possible mechanisms to explain the origin of life http://reasonandscience.heavenforum.org/t2515-the-possible-mechanisms-to-explain-the-origin-of-life Calculations of life beginning through unguided, natural, random events. http://reasonandscience.heavenforum.org/t2508-calculations-of-life-beginning-through-unguided-natural-random-events Neither Evolution nor physical necessity are a driving force prior dna replication. The only two alternatives are either a) creation by an intelligent agency, or b) Random, unguided, undirected natural events by a lucky "accident". Neither Evolution nor physical necessity are a driving force prior dna replication :The origin of the first cell, cannot be explained by natural selection (Ann N Y Acad, 2000) Koonin, the logic of chance, page 246 Evolution by natural selection and drift can begin only after replication with sufficient fidelity is established. Even at that stage, the evolution of translation remains highly problematic. The emergence of the first replicator system, which represented the “Darwinian breakthrough,” was inevitably preceded by a succession of complex, difficult steps for which biological evolutionary mechanisms were not accessible . The synthesis of nucleotides and (at least) moderate-sized polynucleotides could not have evolved biologically and must have emerged abiogenically—that is, effectively by chance abetted by chemical selection, such as the preferential survival of stable RNA species. Translation is thought to have evolved later via an ad hoc selective process. Did you read this ???!! A ad-hoc process ?? Without code there can be no self-replication. Without self-replication, you can’t have reproduction. Without reproduction, you can’t have evolution or natural selection. Heredity is guaranteed by faithful DNA replication whereas evolution depends upon errors accompanying DNA replication. ( Furusawa, 1998 ) We hypothesize that the origin of life, that is, the origin of the first cell, cannot be explained by natural selection among self-replicating molecules, as is done by the RNA-world hypothesis. ( Vaneechoutte M ) The origin of the first cell, cannot be explained by natural selection (Ann N Y Acad, 2000) DNA replication had therefore to be previously, before life began, fully setup , working, and fully operating, in order for evolution to act upon the resulting mutations. Stephen Meyer, Darwins doubt, page 6: Natural selection assumes the existence of living organisms with a capacity to reproduce. Yet self-replication in all extant cells depends upon information-rich proteins and nucleic acids (DNA and RNA), and the origin of such information-rich molecules is precisely what origin-of-life research needs to explain. That’s why Theodosius Dobzhansky, one of the founders of the modern neo-Darwinian synthesis, can state flatly, “Pre-biological natural selection is a contradiction in terms.”5 Or, as Nobel Prize–winning molecular biologist and origin-of-life researcher Christian de Duve explains, theories of prebiotic natural selection fail because they “need information which implies they have to presuppose what is to be explained in the first place. That means, evolution was not a driving force and acting for the emergence and origin of the first living organisms. The only remaining possible mechanisms are chemical reactions acting upon unregulated, aleatory events ( luck,chance), or physical necessity. ( where chemical reactions are forced into taking a certain course of action. ) Physical necessity & Physical laws Physical laws which result in physical constraints, where chemical reactions are forced into taking a certain course of action is an often cited possible mechanism for the origin of life. We are moving from chemistry to biology. Henceforward, life, it goes without saying, is independent of its chemical substrate, and its evolution does not follow paths that are predictable solely based on the laws of physics. M. Gargaud · H. Martin · P. López-García T. Montmerle · R. Pascal Young Sun, Early Earth and the Origins of Life, page 95 Laurent Boiteau Prebiotic Chemistry: From Simple Amphiphiles to Protocell Models, page 3: Spontaneous self-assembly occurs when certain compounds associate through noncovalent hydrogen bonds, electrostatic forces, and nonpolar interactions that stabilize orderly arrangements of small and large molecules. The argument that chemical reactions in a primordial soup would not act upon pure chance, and that chemistry is not a matter of "random chance and coincidence , finds its refutation by the fact that the information stored in DNA is not constrained by chemistry. Yockey shows that the rules of any communication system are not derivable from the laws of physics. He continues : “there is nothing in the physicochemical world that remotely resembles reactions being determined by a sequence and codes between sequences.” In other words, nothing in nonliving physics or chemistry obeys symbolic instructions. Stephen C. Meyer observed: “There are neither bonds nor bonding affinities—differing in strength or otherwise—that can explain the origin of the base sequencing that constitutes the information in the DNA molecule” (Signature in the Cell, 243). As Paul Davies lamented, “We are still left with the mystery of where biological information comes from.… If the normal laws of physics can’t inject information, and if we are ruling out miracles, then how can life be predetermined and inevitable rather than a freak accident? How is it possible to generate random complexity and specificity together in a lawlike manner? We always come back to that basic paradox” (Fifth Miracle, 258). Werner Gitt summarized it this way: “A necessary requirement for generating meaningful information is the ability to select from alternatives and this requires an intelligent, volitional entity.… Unguided, random processes cannot do this—not in any amount of time because this selection process demands continuous guidance by intelligent beings that have a purpose” (Without Excuse, 50–51). The Genetic Code http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/Organic/gencode.html DNA contains a true code. Being a true code means that the code is free and unconstrained; any of the four bases can be placed in any of the positions in the sequence of bases. Their sequence is not determined by the chemical bonding. There are hydrogen bonds between the base pairs and each base is bonded to the sugar phosphate backbone, but there are no bonds along the longitudional axis of DNA. The bases occur in the complementary base pairs A-T and G-C, but along the sequence on one side the bases can occur in any order, like the letters of a language used to compose words and sentences. Since nucleotides can be arranged freely into any informational sequence, physical necessity could not be a driving mechanism. Abiogenesis is the process by which life arises naturally from non-living matter. Scientists speculate that life may have arisen as a result of random chemical processes happening to produce self-replicating molecules. http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Abiogenesis Paul Davies conceded, “Unfortunately, before Darwinian evolution can start, a certain minimum level of complexity is required. But how was this initial complexity achieved? When pressed, most scientists wring their hands and mutter the incantation ‘Chance.’ So, did chance alone create the first self-replicating molecule?” (Fifth Miracle, 138). If design or physical necessity is discarded, the only remaining possible mechanism for the origin of life is chance/luck.Otangelo Grasso
June 27, 2017
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Thanks, Mung. Either way we cut it (single self-replicating molecule or a more complete "organism") OOL is a non-starter from a naturalistic perspective on the substantive front. But I think this categorization is an important point from a logical, theoretical, and tactical perspective.Eric Anderson
June 27, 2017
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Nice OP Eric.Mung
June 27, 2017
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