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Thinking Upside Down – The Abiogenesis Paradigm

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Not too many months ago I ran across Richard Dawkins’ statement that life got its start when, somehow, on the early Earth a self-replicating molecule formed.  I nearly fell out of my chair laughing.  I had read the quote before, and he has repeated the idea in various writings and interviews, but after having studied the issues with abiogenesis in a bit more detail, in particular the concept of a self-replicating molecule to kick off the origin of life, the idea struck me as particularly preposterous.

In this post, I want to follow up on the other recent thread regarding abiogenesis.  This time, however, I want to focus on the matter of self-replication.

The Abiogenesis Paradigm

As mentioned, the idea of a self-replicating molecule is central to most abiogenesis storylines.  Dawkins is not unique in this view, but I offer one of his quotes so that the reader can understand the general thrust.  In a 2012 COSMOS interview, Dawkins said:

Heather Catchpole: Have you put any thought into the beginning of life and into what kicked that off?

Dawkins: Not personally.  I mean, it’s increasingly clear that the big step that had to be taken – and it was probably a step that involved a large element of luck – was the origin of the first accurately self-replicating molecule.  Colloquially, you could say the first gene.  Which probably was not DNA, it might have been RNA.

That’s the step that must have been taken in the origin of life, and that’s what people are working on all around the world.  It’s hard to work on it because it happened a very long time ago under very different conditions, and it is a problem in chemistry rather than biology, it is pre-biology.

But the event in chemistry that must have taken place was the spontaneous arising of a self-replicating molecule.  That’s how I stated it in The Selfish Gene and that hasn’t changed, but people are now actively working on various theories of how that might have happened.  I’m not working on that.

Dawkins is of course not alone.  The search for a self-replicating molecule is the Holy Grail of origin of life research.  Indeed, you can take it to the bank that if a simple self-replicating molecule is ever discovered materialists will all but proclaim that the problem of life’s origin has been essentially solved.

The reason the elusive self-replicating molecule is so critical is that all honest researchers, even those committed to a materialist paradigm who dare not consider the possibility of design, acknowledge that there can be no evolution without a self-replicating entity.*  Once a self-replicating entity appears on the scene, however, the magic of natural selection can take over and then . . . watch out! . . . anything is possible.

Not that there is any good evidence, mind you, that natural selection can produce the kinds of systems we see in living organisms, much less the coding, protocols, and information-rich aspects.  But the vision of natural selection having near-mystical powers of creation has taken such hold on the evolutionary imagination that many individuals mistakenly believe with the magic wand of natural selection, “all things are possible.”  Stated another way, it is not that there is good evidence a self-replicating molecule can give rise to complex life; it is just that once natural selection kicks in, the idea becomes more believable to many people.

But back to those first steps of life’s origin . . .

Most criticisms of abiogenesis have focused on specific evidentiary details: the reducing atmosphere, energy sources, the difficulty of forming polymers in the primordial soup, the existence of the necessary nucleotides or amino acids at the right place and time, homochiralty, interfering cross reactions, the rise of coding and information-rich molecules, and so on.  Together these constitute a devastating indictment of the abiogenesis paradigm and give us ample reason to doubt the materialistic creation story.

However, much less time has been spent – and I want to focus on this today – on the issue of self-replication.  Indeed, even many critics of abiogenesis have skirted the issue or seem to have implicitly bought into the idea that a self-replicating molecule may indeed arise early on in the process.

In short, under the abiogenesis paradigm, the process is as follows:

chemical reactions -> self-replicating molecule -> natural selection kicks in -> eons pass -> life as we know it

This approach puts self-replication at the beginning of the creative story, the opening curtain if you will, in the long and complicated drama that is the history of life on Earth.  Under this paradigm, self-replication is viewed as the very first stage, the kicking-off point, the starting rung of the ladder of life.  Rather than having a living organism and then endowing that organism with an additional ability of self-replication, the materialistic paradigm makes self-replication the first ability.  Self-replication becomes the initial characteristic of an organism, the characteristic from which all others flow.

Let me say that again: Under the materialistic abiogenesis story, self-replication is the first characteristic of an organism to arise, the characteristic from which all additional characteristics then arise.  Characteristics like homeostasis, the genetic code, molecular machines, control mechanisms, the ability to locate, process and utilize materials from the environment, and so on.

The First Step of Life

This view of self-replication as the starting point, the initiator, the first step toward all other biological characteristics is not only questionable, it is completely backwards.  The abiogenesis story is upside-down.  Unfortunately, a failure to think through what is actually required for self-replication, the engineering and programming realities, gives rise to muddled thinking.  But for the magic wand of natural selection to kick in, self-replication must have been the first key step, the thinking goes.  This is why Dawkins would say: “it’s increasingly clear that the big step that had to be taken . . . was the origin of the first accurately self-replicating molecule.”

This insistence on a materialistic origin of life, coupled with the hypnotic trance of the limitless power of natural selection, thus leads the materialist to draw a conclusion that is not only unsupported, but that is diametrically opposed to the physical, chemical and engineering realities we see in the world around us.

The Realities of Self-Replication

A number of researchers have considered what might be involved in getting a self-replicating organism.  I have developed a tentative list of my own, but rather than lengthening this already too-lengthy essay, I will instead refer readers to the thought-provoking materials provided by InVivoVeritas.

In order to help us understand what is involved in self-replication, let us step back for a moment from the dizzying complexity of the living cell and consider what would be involved in building the simplest self-replicating machine possible with our existing technological understanding.

Self-replication has been the topic of much discussion in science fiction literature and movies, ranging from the large and powerful Terminator-style robots to small but deadly nanites.  However, in actual practice, creating a self-replicating machine is not so simple.

Some might be tempted to point to a software program that can copy itself, but such programs are not self-replicating in any substantive sense.  The software program only exists and runs on a carefully-designed and functional piece of hardware that is certainly not replicated in the process.  Furthermore, there is generally an operating system, as well as several additional pieces of software in the form of drivers, compilers, interfaces, middleware programs, and so on.  The most that can be said for such “self-replicating” programs is that a carefully-designed combination of hardware and software can produce a copy of a portion of the software.

No, true self-replication is a more onerous task.  Once we consider the task of actually instantiating a self-replicating machine in physical, three-dimensional space, the challenges become a bit more obvious.

Let’s take a real-world example of attempts to create a self-replicating machine.  To help us get a concrete idea of what is involved let’s look at the relatively-simple consumer-level 3D printers.

3D Printing

A considerable amount of effort has been dedicated toward the goal of self-replication and some modest gains have been made.  One of the most exciting technologies to emerge in recent years is 3D printing.  The ability of a machine to create various parts in three-dimensional space has set us on the path to the first realistic opportunity in human history to create a self-replicating machine.

I became interested in 3D printing years ago and have followed the development of the industry off and on ever since.  Recently the technology has become cheap enough that 3D printers have moved, if not into the world of the everyday consumer, then certainly into the world of the hobbyist and the technology enthusiast.  Popular consumer-level makers include MakerBot, FlashForge, 3DSystems, and others.

Today 3D printers range from personal machines costing a few hundred dollars that do rough prints in a single material to high-end professional printers costing many thousands of dollars boasting tolerances of less than one-tenth of a millimeter and printing in multiple materials.  Numerous 3D technologies also exist, from material extrusion (the most common technology for consumer and prosumer printers), light photopolymerization, powder bed fusion, ultrasonic additive, laser-induced, electron beam melting, and more.

Despite my interest in this area, I have not yet taken the plunge to buy my own printer.  I am guessing that within the next 12-18 months I will probably be willing to lay down some silver to acquire my own printer.  However, in the meantime our local library received a grant last year to educate patrons on the technology of 3D printers, so I took advantage of the opportunity to design and print a simple stand for one of my 5x5x5 cubes.

Printed - 2013-10-15 15.13.54_001

 

Printed-2013-10-15 15.13.03_001

 

This is an exciting and explosive technology that promises to fundamentally alter the landscape of design and prototyping activities, and, to a lesser though still meaningful extent, actual manufacturing processes.

A Self-Replicating 3D Printer?

One of the more interesting projects in the 3D printing world is the RepRap Project, an open-source project that seeks to create a self-replicating 3D printer.  A number of people have been involved in this project and have done tremendous work in moving it forward, with significant strides made.  As of this writing, many of the parts for a RepRap printer can be printed on the printer itself to reasonable tolerances, enabling a hobbyist to use those parts in the construction of a new printer.

RepRap 1.0 - Darwin
RepRap 1.0 – Darwin

As is often the case with groundbreaking new technologies, however, the excitement of future high-flying potential tends to intrude on assessments of the present on-the-ground realities.  For example, the RepRap website touts the machine as “humanity’s first general-purpose self-replicating manufacturing machine.”

At first blush, the uninitiated may look at projects like RepRap and think, “Wow!  We are almost there in terms of creating a self-replicating machine.”  But a closer look is warranted.

Another very interesting printer, the Kickstarter-backed BI V2.0, received breathless attention in late 2013, with myriad headlines touting “The World’s First Self-Replicating 3D Printer!”  This isn’t just sloppy newswire enthusiasm; even the official project website touts BI V2.0 as “A self-replicating, high precision 3D Printer.”

However, notwithstanding my enthusiasm for 3D printing technology and the long-term potential, such statements are overly-optimistic to the point of deception.  Neither RepRap nor BI V2.0 are self-replicating.

Not in theory or in practice.

Not even close.

Not even in the ballpark.

Don’t get me wrong.  I love this technology.  I’ve followed RepRap closely and consider it a fantastic idea and an excellent open-source project.  I also seriously considered contributing funds to the BI V2.0 Kickstarter project last year.

But despite the efforts that have been made to date, a human-designed self-replicating machine is a long way off.  We’re just scratching the surface.

So Close and Yet So Far

Although these printers do an impressive job of printing some of the parts needed for their construction, even a cursory look at the printer reveals that it is not even close to being able to print all its parts.

The printer itself must initially be set up and programmed with the right parameters, it must be fed the material for extrusion.  Even after parts are printed, they must be carefully removed from the bed by the user and, in many cases, cleaned up and sanded in order to finalize the usable parts.

In addition, notwithstanding the considerable effort expended to make as many parts as possible printable on the self-same machine, many other parts are simply not able to be printed by the printer.  The metal support rods that provide critical rigidity to the frame must be purchased separately.  More daunting still, the printer requires a circuit board, cabling, control switches and the like in order to function.  The printer at this stage is not even close to being able to produce all those parts.

BI V2.0
BI V2.0 (Click for closer look)

Yet there is another aspect that goes beyond the parts themselves.  Even if the printer had the capability of printing in multiple materials at the sub-micron level – even if the printer could print virtually every single part used in the construction of the printer, something which at this stage is but a distant dream – it would still not have the ability to assemble itself at all.

As we delve into the issue more deeply and more carefully, we realize that in order for a machine to be truly self-replicating, it must not only be able to produce all the necessary parts, but it must have a means to assemble those parts – in actual, physical, three-dimensional space.  In order to do that, the printer would not only have to be a printer of parts, but would need to have carefully-controlled and sophisticated robotic assembly systems.  For example, it would need an assembly arm to pick up the printed pieces, analyze them for completeness and quality, rotate them into the right position, and place them in the correct location.  In reality, this would likely require more than one assembly arm/mechanism.

And as soon as we introduce this new assembly arm/mechanism into the printer, then we have a whole additional set of machine parts that themselves have to be incorporated into the printer design, specified, coded, printed and assembled.  Indeed, the entire printer would need to be radically re-engineered in order for it to successfully assemble itself.

Furthermore, it is unclear how this printer could even accomplish this task without some significant re-engineering.  Remember, the printer is occupying a physical three-dimensional space.  The best it can do is assemble a copy right next to itself, with the far side of the copy some 12-24 inches away.  Thus any assembly mechanism would have to be able to reach outside of the box – outside of itself – in order to reproduce itself.

Assembling outside of itself might work on a clean tabletop with no other interference, but is of course unworkable in the fluid and watery biological environment.  So the cell uses an ingenious approach whereby the new outside housing/membrane is the last thing to be completed.  The cell essentially constructs a copy of itself within itself, using its own cell membrane to form the protective environment for construction, and then divides by drawing the cell membrane inward between the original and the copy, eventually sealing off the gap and releasing the now-completed copy into the larger environment.  It would be as though our printer, seen as a cube-like structure, were to remove one wall, extend its own frame to encompass a space the size of two printers, construct the internal components in that open space, and then rebuild two walls between the identical sections in order to release the completed copy.

Let us not forget that a truly autonomous self-replicating entity would also need to be able to locate and make use of its own materials and would need to be able to generate its own power from raw resources.  No convenient electrical cord plugged into the wall, please, nor any careful feeding of the printer filament by a user.  And for long-term successful replication over more than just a few generations, it would be critical to have various feedback and quality control mechanisms, error correction and the like.

The above is but the barest outline of what would be involved in building a truly self-replicating entity.  But as we think through some of these details (an activity that is, unfortunately, too often skipped by abiogenesis enthusiasts), we begin to get an inkling as to the scale of the problem.

We must remember, too, that every time we include a new part or an additional mechanism to assist with the self-replication process, that part or mechanism must too be replicated, requiring additional instruction sets, perhaps a reworking of the machine’s physical layout, and additional information about this new part or mechanism – how it is to be constructed, how it is to be assembled, how it is to function.

Indeed, every single time we add a new part, or in the vernacular of the materialistic evolution story, every time the nascent organism “evolves” a new function, that new function requires not only a careful integration into the whole, but the instruction set to implement and reproduce that new part.

The same principle holds in the biochemical world.  Let’s assume, through some miracle, that we discover a self-replicating molecule.  When that molecule “evolves” something additional, say a side strand polymer or a molecular complex, the self-replication process that formerly faithfully reproduced the simple molecule may no longer be up to the task.  The self-replication ability has to be re-worked, re-gained, re-programmed with every meaningful additional change or improvement to the nascent life form.

Self-replication needs to be seen for what it is: an additional, added capability beyond what is necessary for an organism to carry out its daily life functions.  It is simply true, a basic logical fact, that it is more challenging and complicated and difficult and sophisticated to design a machine that does X and self-replicates, than to design a machine that just does X.

The Big Picture

Self-replication is not a one-time origin of life problem.  Nor is it an occasional challenge at important junctures of the long evolutionary history of life.  At every stage of the evolution from a simple self-replicating molecule up to the most detailed and complex organism of the Earth – at every stage of the process, the ability to properly self-replicate has to, in essence, be reacquired.  This is almost never discussed openly and is rarely recognized for the massive conceptual problem that it is.

Thus self-replication, rather than being a basic kick-starting point at the beginning of the long road of evolution, instead itself lies at the end of an extremely complicated, sophisticated and specified design process.  Furthermore, every time something is added to assist in the self-replication process, the very adding requires a re-working of the self-replication process itself.

Don’t misunderstand.  This is not an infinite regress.  The self-replication process can be engineered and can be overcome.  But we do start to sense the scale of the problem.

Implications for the Abiogenesis Story

The materialist creation story, which places self-replication at the beginning of the evolutionary process is little more than a naïve just-so story, one that flies in the face of what we understand, not only of chemistry and physics in getting to the self-replicating molecule in the first place, but in the face of our engineering understanding of what is required for self-replication to function in the real world.

As a result, it is not just that abiogenesis is incomplete, with details remaining to be filled in.  It is not just that abiogenesis relies on numerous disputable physical and chemical factors from the reducing atmosphere to the primordial soup to the right energy source to the formation of information-rich molecules.  It is not just that abiogenesis is incomplete knowledge.  The abiogenesis paradigm, with its placement of self-replication as the first stage of development, is not just wrong due to various evidentiary details.  It is fundamentally flawed at a conceptual level.

I keep repeating this, because I want to be clear that this is not simply another in the long line of evidentiary critiques of this-or-that chemical or natural obstacle to abiogenesis.  This is a fundamental, central, irretrievable, conceptual problem with the idea.  A conceptual problem which separates abiogenesis from the realities of the physical world by such a deep and abiding chasm, that the concept of abiogenesis becomes not just mistaken, but actually anathema to knowledge.  It functions as a kind of anti-knowledge.  It is not just that, in accepting abiogenesis, one has learned something inaccurate or incomplete.  Rather, an individual’s view of the world and understanding of the science is actually worse off for ever having taken it seriously.

Conclusion

The abiogenesis paradigm – with self-replication as the starting point, the initial characteristic, of life – stands in stark contrast to physical, chemical and engineering realities.  Self-replication – the ability to timely and faithfully and accurately reproduce one’s own kind – far from being the first step, in fact lies at the end of a complex, carefully-coordinated, precisely-modulated, exquisitely-orchestrated, functionally-specified, information-driven process.  Speaking more poetically, self-replication – this remarkable ability to multiply and fill the Earth – is a creative end, the culmination of an organism’s existence, not its beginning.

The abiogenesis paradigm, attempts to stand this edifice on its head.  And without a sure foundation to stand on, the materialistic creation story crumbles.  Abiogenesis is not simply an incomplete paradigm.  It is fundamentally flawed.  As long as we insist on clinging to the outdated abiogenesis paradigm, one that is diametrically opposed to both the evidence and our real-world experience, we will never come to understand the beautiful and deep mystery that is life’s origin.

—–

* This insistence on self-replication being a critical aspect of evolution is not, in fact, correct.  However, that is a detailed topic that will have to wait for another day.

Comments
Zachriel:
Life does not violate the the laws of thermodynamics.
Life arising from matter and energy via blind and undirected physicochemical processes does.Virgil Cain
January 12, 2016
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gpuccio: After all, they apparently and constantly violate the second law, and even darwinists admit that the only way to explain that (if it can be really explained) is that they receive energy from outside. Really wish you wouldn't say that. Life does not violate the the laws of thermodynamics. It's like saying window frost violates the laws of thermodynamics. gpuccio: As far as I know, that has not been found yet. I am not saying that it will not be found, such a molecule can exist in principle. But, if and when it is found, it will be the result of complex human engineering, it will be complex, and it will be well beyond any chance of random origin. The claim in the original post was that a molecular replicator can't exist. Eric Anderson: A bit of reflection is adequate to realize that even “simple” stuff like a passive membrane letting materials in by diffusion/osmosis, is not a “simple” matter. Actually, a simple single-chain amphiphiles are permeable to the small molecules, but would contain and segregate the larger product molecules. They also lend themselves to competitive growth. See Chen & Walde, From Self-Assembled Vesicles to Protocells, Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory Press 2010.Zachriel
January 12, 2016
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Mung:
Even a ribozyme would not work.
Obviously! I just meant that only a ribozyme would work to start a just so story about an RNA world. All the other insurmountable difficulties remain :)
The more I look into biological membranes the more unlikely it seems that “it just happened, that’s all” can suffice as a a reasonable explanation.
It can't.gpuccio
April 13, 2014
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lol! All is well. The more I look into biological membranes the more unlikely it seems that "it just happened, that's all" can suffice as a a reasonable explanation.Mung
April 13, 2014
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gpuccio @67:
My point is that the self-replicating molecules must bear that kind of information that can be subject to variation during replication, otherwise it cannot undergo the process of RV, which is essential for “evolution”.
Well, you are probably right, as far as the ultimate process goes. I think a number of abiogenesis researchers recognize the need for information-bearing molecules.* Yet at an even more basic level, there seems to be this idea, among some researchers and certainly among the lay materialist (AVS, for example), that the self-replication can come before the information, that the self-replication can be the source of the information. That is why I talked about the self-replicating molecule being the first step on the road to life as being upside down. Their idea is, unfortunately, little more than vague, unspecified (no pun intended) assertions, but it relies heavily on the oft-heard and extremely intoxicating idea that once a self-replicator is available (no matter how simple, no matter whether it contains any meaningful information or not), then natural selection can take over. And we all know what that means -- with natural selection "all things are possible." ----- * Sorry, Mung, I couldn't bear to write the longer and more convoluted "molecules that contain representations of information" -- well, rats, I just took the time to write it. :)Eric Anderson
April 13, 2014
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Even a ribozyme would not work. gpuccio:
So, here is a short list of what, IMO, is truly essential for life, and therefore for its origin: a) Establishing a separation between an inner environment and an outer environment, and generating definite differences between the two.
I agree. But how would the presence of a ribozyme establish this separation? It would not. The ribozyme could perhaps exist outside the membrane, but how would it establish the necessary separation?Mung
April 13, 2014
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Eric: You say: "OOL research today (at least many versions of it) does not start with an information-rich molecule." But that is not exactly my point. My point is that the self-replicating molecules must bear that kind of information that can be subject to variation during replication, otherwise it cannot undergo the process of RV, which is essential for "evolution". It could be just a little of that information, it is not necessary that the molecule be "rich" of it. So, even a ribozyme made of three nucleotides would suffice. Unfortunately, such a simple ribozyme does not exist. Ribozymes with even a little of self-replicative activity are made of hundreds of nucleotides. What I am saying is that a self-replicating molecule which can be used as an actor in any OOL theory must not only self-replicate, but also be a polymer bearing information in the sequence of the monomers. IOWs, we need "configurable switches" in the molecules for tranmittable information potentially subject to variation to exist. A complex self-replicating molecule, completely determined by chemical laws, would not do, because it would only replicate its own information, without any chance at evolution. That's why I made the example of the water molecule: it is simple, but its problem is that it cannot vary, because it is fully determined in its chemical configuration. A more complex molecule of the same kind would have the same limitation. Instead, a polymer which can vary in the sequence of its monomers has a digital information which can be copied and which can undergo variation. And it must also be catalytic, to provide self-replication. Only RNA, as far as I know, can have all those qualities. That's why they have developed the RNA world hypothesis. That's why they need a ribozyme: only a ribozyme would work.gpuccio
April 12, 2014
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BTW, how many books do you have?! It seems you have a book for nearly every topic that comes up.
Far too many. More than I can read. I'd love to make a deal with the DI where they take them off my hands and just give me access, lol.
Except macroevolution. LOL!
lol. true. I think I now have one: Macroevolution: Diversity, Disparity, Contingency: Essays in Honor of Stephen Jay GouldMung
April 12, 2014
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Follow Sal's link and look for "design" or "designed." :DMung
April 12, 2014
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Thanks, Sal. Shall I make a preliminary guess (even without reading the paper) as to whether their "self-replication" is really self-replication or assisted replication? :)Eric Anderson
April 12, 2014
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The self-replication is rigged, but I need a chemist to explain it. I sort of understand how it's done, but it's not my field. Salscordova
April 12, 2014
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Eric, Just as a heads up, I found the following last night while doing some research to respond to PZ Myers. It's something I anticipate will be thrown at me so I wanted to find stuff like this before I get hit with it in debate.
we have shown that even within the simple helical structure, a peptide replicator can contain a rich degree of information that enables it to display, at the molecular level, some of the basic characteristics of living systems, such as self-replication, homochirality, and resistance toward accumulation of errors (stereochemical mutations). The link between these traits allows the replicator to selectively amplify homochiral sequences. Therefore, chiroselectivity in peptide self-replication is a direct result of complementary noncovalent interactions that pass on both binding and stereochemical information simultaneously. That such a prototypical peptide system is able to amplify homochiral products through self-replication suggests that this and similar mechanisms may have affected the origin of homochirality on Earth. http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v409/n6822/full/409797a0.html
But, it won't evolve.scordova
April 12, 2014
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gpuccio: Thanks for the thoughts.
As I have tried to argue here, the answer is yes only in the self-replicating molecule is a ribozyme, or something similar to it: IOWs, a molecule that at the same time bears digital information that can be passed on, and can replicate itself. The concept of digital information is fundamental here. A simple self-replicating molecule, if it exists, can only perpetuate itself. That does not help in an OOL theory.
Quite true. However . . . OOL research today (at least many versions of it) does not start with an information-rich molecule. The thought is that once self-replication exists, the self-replicator can perpetuate itself and sometimes mistakes/mutations will be made. Through the magic of natural selection, that mutating self-replicating molecule will eventually be modified to contain information. In other words, the materialist sees no more difficulty in generating new information at the abiogenesis stage (if we have a self-replicating molecule to work with), than generating new information in the genome today. Both are eminently possible through the magic of natural selection, so the thinking goes. Indeed, this was precisely the tactic taken by AVS on the other thread. He refused to address how information would arise (actually, in practice, in the real world), instead clinging to the idea that once a self-replicator appears, the hard work is done. So while I agree with you that information is critical to having a workable OOL, the concept doesn't phase the committed materialist. After all, information arises by purely natural processes all the time -- just look, everything we see around us is the result of natural processes! But if the alleged self-replicating molecule -- that elusive first step that even the hardened materialist admits is essential to abiogenesis -- never existed under natural conditions, then hopefully (just perhaps) the materialist will have enough intellectual honesty to reconsider his position. A self-replicating molecule for OOL purposes must have, at a minimum, the four characteristics I outlined in #19 above. Personally, I do not think such a thing can exist without information and carefully coordinated control mechanisms. That is where the information comes into play. But I want to press the materialist into giving us some rational reason for thinking that such a self-replicator could exist -- in the pre-biotic context, in the pre-information context. If the materialist cannot do so, as thus far no-one has been able to do, it then underscores the need for information, right up front, at the very beginning of the origin of life.Eric Anderson
April 12, 2014
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Eric: I think we agree, only we say things slightly differently. The point is, function is always recognized by a conscious observer, and it is often set up by a conscious designer. That's the only problem. We can recognize function even in things that were not designed. That's why we need a tool to detect design, IOWs to discriminate between apparently functional things that were not designed, and functional things that were designed and whose function was set up by a conscious, intentional being. As observers of the mere object in its context, we cannot immediately discriminate between apparent function and designed function. Clouds may appear to be designed to look like a face, but they are not. In principle, we could observe some natural context where a simple molecule spontaneously self-replicates. In that case, would it be a clue to a design inference? No, if the system we observe is simple enough, or can be explained by known physical and chemical laws. Yes, if the system is complex and cannot be explained by known physical and chemical laws. Moreover, another question is: is an eventual self-replicating molecule a support to the RNA world OOL theory? As I have tried to argue here, the answer is yes only in the self-replicating molecule is a ribozyme, or something similar to it: IOWs, a molecule that at the same time bears digital information that can be passed on, and can replicate itself. The concept of digital information is fundamental here. A simple self-replicating molecule, if it exists, can only perpetuate itself. That does not help in an OOL theory. A self-replicating RNA molecule, instead, has digital information that can change by variation, and therefore potentially undergo a process of variation and selection. IOWs, if we had a self-replicating water molecule, the simple result would be the proliferation of water. The water molecule is constrained by chemical laws, and even if it can be considered as having some information, that is not the kind of sequential digital information that can change randomly in replication, as required by the neo darwinian model. IOWs, what we need is a self-replicating system whose properties are linked to some unconstrained digital information, like the sequence of nucleotides, which can assume different forms by random events (or by design). I hope that clarifies better what I think.gpuccio
April 12, 2014
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Mung @55: Thanks for the comments -- and for making the effort to follow my still-solidifying thought process on the topic. Yes, we are definitely in the inorganic realm. Given that self-replication, as far as I am aware (and no-one has yet provided any example to the contrary) is only known to occur in the biological context, it is perfectly reasonable to ask whether such a thing can -- either in fact or even in principle -- occur in the pre-biotic realm. Such questions, however, are apparently verboten to some people who consider such questions as too mundane to even think about. BTW, how many books do you have?! It seems you have a book for nearly every topic that comes up. . . . Except macroevolution. LOL!Eric Anderson
April 11, 2014
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gpuccio @54:
Function is defined by us, but it depends on the properties of the object. We define a function for an object that can be used to obtain a certain result. The same object can be used to obtain many different results.
Well, we can look at something that is doing something and call it a function, true. And I agree that the same object can be used to obtain many different results -- by design, by an intelligent agent that knows how to create environments in which a single object can perform multiple functions. But the object, in and of itself, is either capable of doing something in a particular situation or it isn't - that should be an objectively observable property of the object. In the abiotic environment, for example, a molecule to kick start abiogenesis must have the ability to self-replicate. And that activity requires certain functions to be performed. There is no-one there to help out or to assign assign a function to the molecule or to "use it to obtain many different results." It either can perform the task at hand -- by pure dint of blunt chemistry -- or it can't.
The error, IMO, is in thinking that the function is in the object itself. The function is rather a way in which the object itself, given its properties, can be used to give a certain result.
I completely agree . . . in the context of a designed system. A designer can use an object many different ways to obtain certain desired results. Our primordial soup has no such ability. Either the basic chemical reactions do X or they don't. ----- Please don't think I'm arguing. I realize you are talking about a different context (biology, designed systems, etc.), so I'm just trying to talk through out loud, so to speak, what I see as the differences between that and the basic prebiotic soup situation. Notwithstanding the different context, your thoughts about designed systems and functionality have been very helpful, and I certainly look forward to your OP!Eric Anderson
April 11, 2014
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franklin @53:
I would expect someone, like yourself, who is quick to declare what chemistry and biochemistry cannot do to have at least a basic enough understanding of the subject to not ask such mundane questions.
I presume you are only referring to my discussions regarding abiogenesis, rather than the question about multi-functionality for simple molecules in the non-biological context? The former you have not commented on. Regarding the latter I have certainly not been "quick to declare" anything.
as for your request for examples: epoxide hydrolase, glutathione, acetylcholinesterase, anything that binds ATP, anything that binds NADH, rnase . . .
Good grief man. I have explicitly said the question relates to non-biological situations.
iron, water, ect., ect.
Yes, yes. You keep saying -- while evidently missing the question -- that everything is multi-functional. It may be the case. But, ironically, with all your assertions about what an obvious and "mundane" question this is, you have not yet deigned to tell me what, at the most basic level, a water molecule does, nor what its "multiple" functions are. One might be forgiven for suspecting that you have not ever before thought about the issue at the relevant level of detail.
without any knowledge of charge environment and the physical/chemical properties of your hypothetical molecules it would be impossible to determine what they could or could not do. It would seem a more fruitful course of action then playing pretend bio/chemistry.
No-one is playing pretend chemistry. I have thrown out some early nascent thoughts for consideration and brainstorming. I agree that some specific situations may be helpful, which is why I outlined the water molecule example, and I will continue to think through the issue in the future.Eric Anderson
April 11, 2014
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Abstract:
Evolution is treated here in a novel way. DNA or any other code is considered to be conservative and therefore, once life began, it would prevent change. Change was imposed upon the DNA code as a stress resulting in vulnerability to "advantageous" DNA damage and mutation. In this respect it is the stress, the changing environment, that opened up a possibility of evolution once an early life form had optimised itself in primitive circumstances. Here I examine the initial slow-coming-to-terms with the environment of primitive life, and then its evolution as the environment forced the DNA into novel development by introducing chemical elements in new forms. The situation today is no different. Environmental change is hostile to present day life and will lead to further evolution.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9432285Mung
April 11, 2014
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Eric, we'll be waiting forever for gpuccio's next OP. ;) It would seem that you are speaking of what is known as Inorganic Chemistry. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inorganic_chemistry http://chemwiki.ucdavis.edu/Inorganic_Chemistry http://www.chemguide.co.uk/inorgmenu.html http://pubs.acs.org/journal/inocaj Somewhere around here I have a book Natural Selection of the Chemical Elements It should be interesting to see what it says about the various "uses" of the inorganic elements. If they are not "useful," if they serve no "function," upon what basis could they be "selected"?Mung
April 11, 2014
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Eric: As I will discuss more in detail in my next OP (when I find the time), the idea is that anything can do something, and probably anything can do many things. Function is defined by us, but it depends on the properties of the object. We define a function for an object that can be used to obtain a certain result. The same object can be used to obtain many different results. The error, IMO, is in thinking that the function is in the object itself. The function is rather a way in which the object itself, given its properties, can be used to give a certain result. That's why the existence of potential function in any object would be of no use, in itself, to detect design. We can find function, even many different functions, for many non designed objects. It's only the existence of a complex potential function in an object which is really interesting. Complex functional information is the real thing. It is the tool to detect design. So, it's only when the form which allows us to use the object to obtain a result is really complex (a concept that I will try to define better and in greater detail as soon as possible), it's only when no simpler, more probable form could achieve the result, that we have a tool for design detection.gpuccio
April 11, 2014
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And given this is such a simple issue, you should be able to (i) give me several examples off the top of your head of molecules in the non-biological context that act as binders and cleavers, and (ii) tell me how common this is among molecules generally.
I would expect someone, like yourself, who is quick to declare what chemistry and biochemistry cannot do to have at least a basic enough understanding of the subject to not ask such mundane questions. as for your request for examples: epoxide hydrolase, glutathione, acetylcholinesterase, anything that binds ATP, anything that binds NADH, rnase, iron, water, ect., ect. These examples work in an organism or in a beaker on a bench top. As for your #52 why don't you use real examples from bio/chemistry? without any knowledge of charge environment and the physical/chemical properties of your hypothetical molecules it would be impossible to determine what they could or could not do. It would seem a more fruitful course of action then playing pretend bio/chemistry.franklin
April 11, 2014
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Allow me to now to continue to brainstorm a bit . . . If I have a very simple molecule in the non-biological context, what is its basic function – what does it do? Let’s take a concrete example. I have a simple molecule made up of 3 atoms, say, a water molecule. What does it do? And I don’t mean what mass quantities of water can do, like rivers carving a canyon or the ocean serving as the aqueous medium of transport for other molecules. A single water molecule. What does it do? Given its properties, what can it do? Let’s set aside for a moment all the many wonderful macro things that water can do or the larger effects it causes. If you are in a dark alley at gunpoint with a demand that you describe the basic, most foundational, essential activity of a water molecule, what would you say? Maybe this is too elementary a way to think about it, but we do need to think about some very basic properties in the abiogenesis context. Consider the smallest and simplest hypothetical self-replicating molecule: a two-atom molecule (SR) made up of atoms A and B, where the basic function of SR is to bind A and B together into the form SR. In this case we can see that SR, once formed, will be self-replicating in the sense that its basic function is to take naturally-occurring elementary parts and join them into a copy of itself. As far as I know, such a simple self-replicating molecule has never been discovered or created, but that is the hypothetical starting point. Note that A and B must not come together on their own, by dint of basic chemical reactions. In that case we would not be dealing with self-replication, but rather with a basic chemical reaction of atoms A and B forming a molecule. For example, if I mix hydrogen and oxygen together I get water. If I then add more hydrogen and oxygen to the mix I get more water. But the water that was already there is not “self-replicating.” We have just added more oxygen and hydrogen to the mix, which themselves, come together to form more of the product. So a true self-replicating molecule must be one in which the function of the self-replicating molecule – what it does – is cause the formation of itself and which in the absence of such function, more copies of itself would not form. Given that such a simple two-atom self-replicator currently seems to be outside the realm of possibility and that something slightly larger, more complex and more specified is required, as in the lab-designed examples rna cited earlier in this thread, we can then ask what is required (meaning, what functions must be performed) for basic self-replication. We need some kind of binding function certainly. But we also need something to help with the ordering of the constituent parts if a molecule of even modest specificity is required (again, as the examples rna cited seem to demonstrate). In theory such ordering/specificity could also be caused by simple binding, but it is not clear that a single molecule could perform both tasks. Consider a slightly more complex and ordered molecule, say, made up of a small chain of 4 atoms A-B-C-D. Could such a molecule perform the functions of, in this case, binding A to B, and B to C, and C to D? The binding requirements may be different for the different atoms. Is there good experimental reason to think a single molecule could do this? In true self-replication, at least in all examples that we know of, there are different functions carried out by multiple different molecules. Can this process be simplified? Perhaps. But (i) what is the minimal set of basic functions that need to be performed to carry out self-replication in the pre-biotic context, and (ii) is it possible, even in theory, that a single molecule could perform all the necessary functions? Again, I am not proposing any theory or making any claim at this point. But these are perfectly valid and important questions to ask.Eric Anderson
April 11, 2014
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All, thanks for your comments. gpuccio, I appreciate your careful thoughts about biologically active molecules and look forward to your post about functional information. Again, though, I apologize for the initial vague question. I am not talking about what happens in biochemistry. This thread relates to abiogenesis, which is what got me thinking about the issue, so I am interested in the non-biological context, the pre-biological context, if you will. ----- franklin, I have apologized for the vague nature of the initial question, so it would be helpful if you would tone down the insults and accusations if we are to have a fruitful exchange. I note the irony in the fact that you said my question was so unclear as to not be amendable to any answers, but then asserted that the answer to my question was so obvious that any simpleton who had even the slightest knowledge of chemistry would know the answer. Also:
For example why do you seek to constrain multi-functionality of a molecule to an ‘organic’ system?
I don’t and I haven’t. I haven’t made such an argument. I haven’t proposed any theory. I am just exploring and brainstorming at this point. In fact I would be a little surprised if multi-functionality were limited to biological systems, but I am willing to explore the issue a bit.
Can a molecule be both a binder and a cleaver, for example? If so, how common is this?
Of course they can. Why do you think they can’t? (the only reason I can think of is lack of knowledge of inorganic and organic chemistry let alone biochemistry)
I never said they couldn’t. And given this is such a simple issue, you should be able to (i) give me several examples off the top of your head of molecules in the non-biological context that act as binders and cleavers, and (ii) tell me how common this is among molecules generally. ----- Mung, thanks for your thoughts.
Interesting question. Once I have recovered from patting myself on the back for the so excellent answer to the question you did not ask, I shall perhaps address myself to it!
No problem. :)Eric Anderson
April 11, 2014
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Sal @44:
I don’t agree with Denton on self-ordering, but neither do I think his views are totally without merit.
Well said. In my view Denton has done a lot of good in raising awareness of deficiencies in the standard evolutionary storyline, as well as proposing some affirmative ideas worth considering. Self-ordering, however, whatever merit it may have in certain instances, is not going to take us very far in explaining either life's emergence or how it got to its current state of complexity and diversity. Self-ordering is anathema to many of the things that are required for life, including that most important item of all: information.Eric Anderson
April 10, 2014
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...there is a second, and absolutely indispensable criterion for selection - namely that the element must fulfill a function which is both an absolute requirement for life as it existed at that moment in time, and which cannot, or may not, be fulfilled by some other element. - Biological Inorganic Chemistry
Now this is in the Section Why Do We Need Anything Other Than C, H, N, and O (Together With Some P And S)? Obviously, the topic is essential elements. But I think if we read further we can find that the same element can be used for differing ends. And absent further evidence we might even infer that molecules are analogous to the elements in this respect, and further that as some artifacts can be put to use to serve different purposes so also we should not be surprised to find a particular molecule serving different purposes in living organisms. How prevalent this is and whether it is evidence for design or purposeless happenstance is another topic. If you are interested in the same molecule serving different ends in the cell I could point you to, perhaps:
Ribose forms part of the backbone of RNA. It is related to deoxyribose, which is found in DNA. Phosphorylated derivatives of ribose such as ATP and NADH play central roles in metabolism. cAMP and cGMP, formed from ATP and GTP, serve as secondary messengers in some signalling pathways.
. What do you think? But in the end, it comes down to ends. and Darwinian Materialism has no purpose for ends :) Any "end" or "purpose" is just yet another nail in the lid of that coffin. Eric:
What I was really trying to drive at is whether a simple molecule outside of the organic context — by itself, without being involved in a particular system — can have multiple functions. Maybe “function” isn’t even the right word; it is really just a question of which chemical act it can perform.
Interesting question. Once I have recovered from patting myself on the back for the so excellent answer to the question you did not ask, I shall perhaps address myself to it!Mung
April 10, 2014
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eric @38 @43 I understand completely, and the answer is yes/no/maybe - it depends, or not. Hope that helps!Mung
April 10, 2014
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“Natural duplication” does exist, and that might be the phrase I’ll use in the future to avoid confusion.
Hello Salvador, What is the difference between "Natural duplication" and it's alternative (presumably non-natural duplication)?
Some people view crystals as self-replicators.
Do you?
Self replication isn’t in and of itself the most important distinction for life. There are many self-replicators in nature, like crystals.
Or not. Did you change you minds? Now that you've removed crystals from the collection of "many self-replicators in nature" what's left? Anything? Are all these other self-replicators really nothing more than natural duplicators? Are living cells natural duplicators or self-replicators? What's the difference? Are self-replicators a subset of natural duplicators, or are natural duplicators a subset of self-replicators, or are the two completely separate, or is there some overlap between the two? How do you tell? Eric:
Nonsense.
Like.Mung
April 10, 2014
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Eric: I think franklin's answer is correct. I would add that, in the case of biologically active molecules like proteins, it is useful to distinguish between what I call "the local function", IOWs the strict biochemical action, and the meta-function, IOWs the outcome of that chemical activity in the biological context. For example, in the case of insulin, the "local function" could be defined as the ability to bind to the insulin receptor in the cell membrane, but after that a lot of complex things happen, and they are different in different cells, so the meta-functions of insulin are many and very complex. But it is the local function that is directly related to the biochemical properties of the molecule. The meta-functions are more an informational consequence, which depends critically on the whole biological system and on its organization. Hemoglobin has the main local function of binding oxygen, but it binds also other ligands, which regulate its affinity for oxygen, and therefore contribute to the wider meta-function (binding oxygen in the lungs, releasing it in the peripheral tissues). A molecule can have many local functions. Multidomain proteins, typically, have different active sites which do different things. Aminoacyl tRNA synthetases, for example, have a catalytic domain, which phosphorilates the aminoacid and transfers it to the tRNA molecule, and an an anticodon binding domain, which recognizes the correct anticodon region of the tRNA. Some of them also have a proofreading reaction to ensure fidelity of the whole process. In this case, binding the correct aminoacid and recognizing the correct anticodon are two different "local functions", performed by two different domains, while the meta function is to couple the correct aminoacid to the correct tRNA, ensuring the right translation of the genetic code in the mRNA molecule. In general, any object can have many functions. That is an important point that has to be considered when defining functional information. I am preparing a post on that subject, where i hope I can go into greater detail about that.gpuccio
April 10, 2014
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eric, your post #43 is still terribly worded and expressed. it makes so little sense that I doubt anyone could provide any answers since what you are asking is so unclear. try thinking on it a bit. For example why do you seek to constrain multi-functionality of a molecule to an 'organic' system? What is 'organic context? What is a 'particular system'? (any molecule anywhere is constrained within that a 'system' of sorts)
Can a molecule be both a binder and a cleaver, for example? If so, how common is this?
Of course they can. Why do you think they can't? (the only reason I can think of is lack of knowledge of inorganic and organic chemistry let alone biochemistry)
Maybe it just depends on the actual physical/chemical context the molecule is in? In which case we’re back to having to look at particular cases.
Well of course chemistry depends on the environment that the chemistry is going on in, e.g., many molecules behave differently at different pH, e.g., inorganic phosphate, bicarbonate, or hemoglobin. Absolutely, you have to look at specific cases otherwise you can't make any sense out of any chemistry.franklin
April 10, 2014
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Nonsense. :) Crystals do not self-replicate.
Some people view crystals as self-replicators. I try to avoid use of terminology that can be argued away and become a red herring. "Natural duplication" does exist, and that might be the phrase I'll use in the future to avoid confusion. What makes life special is that it that duplication in life is NOT the expected outcome of the chemicals involved starting from a random state like a pre biotic soup. This is in contrast to self-ordering systems where the expectation is to find duplicates. Hazen and Morowitz amazingly swear by self-ordering. There is moderate self-ordering in life. Michael Denton really likes self-ordering. His paper on platonic forms explores self-ordering. It was hailed as a pro-ID paper because it was anti-Darwinian, but it wasn't exactly a pro-ID paper because of its advocacy of self-ordering. He gave credible evidence of some self-ordering. He's not quite in agreement with most IDists on the matter of self ordering and self organization. He actually thinks physics is the driving factor to assembling life, whereas most IDists think physics makes life possible but highly improbable. Denton is an anti-Darwinian, but he is a mix of IDists and Self-Organization theorist. The ID case is strengthened by showing that the chemicals of life are slightly anti-ordering and anti-organizing by themselves, but will work when they are assembled into those rare configurations that allow for interdependence and self-replication. I thought the best treatment of the topic was by Jack Trevors (an atheist). It was fair and especially potent because Jack is not an IDist. He was willing to say, "science might not solve OOL". I don't agree with Denton on self-ordering, but neither do I think his views are totally without merit.scordova
April 10, 2014
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