Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Judge Jones: Towering Intellectual or Narcissistic Putz?

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Judge Jones tours the American countryside seeking the adulation of our intellectual elite and extolling the genius of his Kitzmiller v. Dover decision. The press release below indicates that Jones let the ACLU essentially dictate his decision. Instead of original and impeccable reasoning, Jones uncritically took extensive material from the ACLU’s proposed “findings of fact and conclusions of law” and either copied it directly or modified it ever so slightly. Outside the legal system this is called plagiarism. But since judges are allowed to draw on briefs of the parties, this is called legal scholarship. Even so, courts frown on decisions in which judges extensively copy and paste from other briefs — which is exactly what Jones did! Wired Magazine voted Jones one of the sexiest geeks of 2005. Time characterized him as a legal genius. Truth be told, Jones is a narcissistic putz.

In case you have trouble downloading the Discovery article cited below, i.e., “A Comparison of Judge Jones’ Opinion …”, I’ve uploaded it on the UD server here: www.uncommondescent.com/documentation/Comparing_Jones_and_ACLU.pdf.

“Masterful” Federal Ruling on Intelligent Design Was Copied from ACLU

Seattle — The key section of the widely-noted court decision on intelligent design issued a year ago on December 20 was copied nearly verbatim from a document written by ACLU lawyers, according to a study released today by scholars affiliated with the Discovery Institute. [Go here.]

“Judge John Jones copied verbatim or virtually verbatim 90.9% of his 6,004-word section on whether intelligent design is science from the ACLU’s proposed ‘Findings of Fact and Conclusions of Law’ submitted to him nearly a month before his ruling,” said Dr. John West, Vice President for Public Policy and Legal Affairs at Discovery Institute’s Center for Science and Culture.

“Ironically, Judge Jones has been hailed as ‘an outstanding thinker’ for his ‘masterful’ ruling, and even honored by Time magazine as one of the world’s ‘most influential people’ in the category of ‘scientists and thinkers,'” said West. “But Jones’ analysis of the scientific status of intelligent design contains virtually nothing written by Jones himself. This finding seriously undercuts the credibility of a central part of the ruling.”

The study notes that, while judges routinely make use of proposed findings of fact, “the extent to which Judge Jones simply copied the language submitted to him by the ACLU is stunning. For all practical purposes, Jones allowed ACLU attorneys to write nearly the entire section of his opinion analyzing whether intelligent design is science. As a result, this central part of Judge Jones’ ruling reflected essentially no original deliberative activity or independent examination of the record on Jones’ part.”

Jones’ copying was so uncritical that he even reprinted a number of factual errors originally made by ACLU attorneys.

For example, Jones claimed that biochemist Michael Behe, when asked about articles purporting to explain the evolution of the immune system, responded that the articles were “not ‘good enough.'” Behe actually said the exact opposite: “it’s not that they aren’t good enough. It’s simply that they are addressed to a different subject.” Jones’ misrepresentation of Behe came directly from the ACLU’s “Findings of Fact.”

Again copying from the ACLU, Jones insisted that “ID is not supported by any peer-reviewed… publications.” But, in fact, the court record contained evidence of several such publications.

The study, titled “A Comparison of Judge Jones’ Opinion in Kitzmiller v. Dover with Plaintiffs’ Proposed ‘Findings of Fact and Conclusions of Law,'” was co-authored by West and law professor David DeWolf and is available from Discovery Institute’s website at www.discovery.org/csc. [For the actual document, go here.]

West noted that “those who thought the Dover decision would end the debate over Darwinian evolution were obviously wrong. That debate is just as vibrant and vigorous as it ever was, and Darwinists know it.” West cited a recent New York Times report about a gathering of scientists at the Salk Institute for Biological Studies in November where there was “a rough consensus” that the theory “of evolution by natural selection” was “losing out in the intellectual marketplace.”

“A year after Dover, it’s the Darwinists who seem filled with gloom, not us,” said West, highlighting several positive developments over the past few months:

***In June, South Carolina adopted a science standard requiring students to learn how “scientists… investigate and critically analyze aspects of evolutionary theory.”

***In September, legal scholar Francis Beckwith, whose support for the constitutionality of intelligent design is well-known, was granted tenure at Baylor University after an effort by Darwinists to deny him tenure backfired.

***At the end of November, the Ouachita Parish School District in Louisiana enacted a policy that protects the academic freedom of teachers to objectively cover scientific criticisms of Darwinian evolution as well as the evidence in favor of the theory.

“As we made clear from the beginning, Discovery Institute opposed the Dover school board policy because attempts to mandate intelligent design are counterproductive,” said West. “At the same time, Darwinist efforts to use the courts to restrict open discussion of evolution offend free speech and academic freedom. We are delighted that the Darwinist attempt to muzzle the debate has failed.”

Discovery Institute is the nation’s leading public policy center that defends the rights of teachers and students to analyze the strengths and weaknesses of Darwinian evolution. The Institute has a national program to defend the rights of scientists, teachers, and students who are being threatened because they dare to raise critical questions about evolution. For more information, visit www.discovery.org/csc.

FOR RELEASE DEC. 12, 2006
Press Contact: Anika Smith
Discovery Institute
(206) 292-0401 x. 155
asmith@discovery.org

###

Comments
I have finally realized the real reason why the ID-as-science section of Judge Jones' Kitzmiller v. Dover opinion largely or completely ignores the defense arguments (over 90 percent of this section was written by the ACLU) : Jones knew that an appeal was unlikely because of the changeover in school board membership in the election. Had an appeal been likely, Jones probably would have answered the defense arguments because presumably he would not have wanted his opinion to go to the appeals court without answers to those arguments. Also, Jones said that the outcome of the election would not affect his decision. What a joke. The Dover opinion is not worth the legal stationery that it's printed on.Larry Fafarman
December 15, 2006
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DOperdeck, "I do agree, BTW, that the existing Supreme Court establishment clause jurisprudence is out of whack with the actual aims of the first amendment, but there’s nothing Judge Jones or any other trial judge can do about that.Personally, I think school choice and vouchers are one possible way forward from this thicket, but that’s a whole ‘nother can of worms." Well, recognizing the current establishment jurisprudence is wrong and never intended by our Founding Fathers is a start. I disagree with your summation, "there's nothing... any other trial judge can do..." not on technical knowledge, but on common sense. I do not understand finer points of trial law, appellate court procedures and federal juridicstions. So, I appeal to history. We know Judges set "precedents" which go in opposite direction of original intent in favor of liberal interpretations. Plus, we know there are "precedents" for overturning past precedents. Has not the Supreme Court overturned rulings of past Supreme Courts? I believe there is historical precedent to right a wrong. The current establishment jurisprudence ruling goes against passed established rulings concerning government interference with states rights. The federal government has superceeded States rights according to our constitution and our Founding Fathers. Re: opening a can of worms. A wormy mess was opened by the establishment clause jurisprudence ruling. The Supreme Court overstepped its boundaries ruling against historical context. And ruled against original intent of our Founding Fathers. This based upon one line in a letter which the ACLU misrepresented from Jefferson in response to Dansbury Baptist members. A clear reading of Jefferson and his opinions on Federal Government overreach into State jurisdiction is seen in this quote, “power to prescribe any religious exercise. . . . must rest with the States” Jefferson knew the dangers centralized government becoming all to powerful. He expressly desired to insure the people are self-governing. The quote I took from an interesting look on history which our children never are allowed to see in our secular, atheist schools today... WallBuilders The current ruling went to far. It took away rights of one group in favor of another. Instead of allowing equal rights, it enforced atheist rights over all others. As an analogy, African Americans would be given rights endowed by our Creator, but Caucasion Americans rights would be stripped, forced to attend other schools based upon their color. Certainly today in hindsight we recognize civil rights of all people. But we also recognize you do not take rights away as a means to correct past wrongs. This is essentially the ruling in regards to the fallacy of "seperation of church and state." It allows mainly the rich and wealthy who can afford it, to send their children to private parochial schools which allow different scientific views to be heard. This is discrimination against the poor who desire their children receive a religious foundation in education. Vouchers attempts to end this discrimination. It does not open a can of worms. It is the beginning idea of closing it. Ultimately allowing schools to benefit from the reimbursement of tax dollars per child is the only true justice. All schools, that simple. And eliminate the bureaucratic nightmare of government intervention, lawyers, judges, etc. We have become the most litigious society in the world. A student sneezes and he sues the teacher because she wore makeup that he is allergic too. Please note as IDNET stated, Australia exist today without this nonsensical lie of "seperation of church and state". Their science programs are not floundering, in fact they're flourishing. UK, the same. This lie promoted continuously by the ACLU never existed during our nations founding, nor for hundreds of years until recent "precedents" were set. The current rule of law is itself "a precedent" and is discrimnatory against a large segment of population. Until this injustice is corrected, millions of Americans are forced to send their children to secular schools for which they are unfairly taxed. And for which they are unjustly forced by Federal Government to indoctrinate their children into a secular, atheist worldview. Jefferson understood the dangers of a Federal Government having to much power in this precise case. He stood firm against it. And his concern is in fact what has happened today. As a result, our children and even uninformed Chrisitan adults, assume this is what our Founding Fathers desired or believed. School children never hear the truth of what our Founding Fathers said in the past, because it is "Deemed Unlawful" by Supreme Court "establishment clause jurisprudence" to talk about our own Founding Fathers religious beliefs in the school system. Try having a teacher, teach what Jefferson said about religion. Try allowing a teacher, teach their children that our Founding Fathers in fact, paid for and supplied Bibles to schools. A few parents would sue and the ACLU would be their Beast in the courtroom. This is beyond absurd that our children cannot hear the truth of our nations foundings. The only Wall being built is the one of great deception around We the People by the likes of atheist groups, and the origially communist inspired ACLU.Michaels7
December 15, 2006
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dopderbeck said (Comment #106) --
Larry said: Jones allowed briefs rebutting the “proposed findings of fact and conclusions of law” briefs but the procedure that was used in the Dover case was still quite a bit different from normal briefing procedure.
Not really. The kind of briefing schedule you’re referring to is often used for pre-trial motions, such as motions to dismiss. It isn’t necessarily employed for post-trial submissions. OK, but I was talking about cases that have not been dismissed but that have no courtroom trials -- e.g., where there is no dispute over the facts of the case and the only issues are conclusions of law. Also, the procedure that I described -- a plaintiff's (or appellant's or petitioner's) "opening" brief followed by an "answering" brief and then a "reply" brief -- is usually followed by the federal appellate courts -- in fact, the 9th circuit court of appeals even has color codes for the covers of these briefs. The Supreme Court also follows this procedure, with a few exceptions -- see http://www.law.cornell.edu/rules/supct/15.htmlLarry Fafarman
December 15, 2006
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dopderbeck I agree with your last two paragraphs and don't know enough about normal courtroom procedure to argue about the first two. That said, I and everyone else still have the right to question and criticize how Jones conducted the trial and how he's conducted himself in the year since it ended.DaveScot
December 14, 2006
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Larry said: Jones allowed briefs rebutting the “proposed findings of fact and conclusions of law” briefs but the procedure that was used in the Dover case was still quite a bit different from normal briefing procedure. Not really. The kind of briefing schedule you're referring to is often used for pre-trial motions, such as motions to dismiss. It isn't necessarily employed for post-trial submissions. Anyway, absent a local rule to the contrary, briefing schedules are always within the discretion of the trial judge. I've been in cases where the judge allows only one brief from each side on an issue, and in others where the judge accepted letter briefs almost ad infinitum. One thing you have to remember is that, if you give a lawyer a chance to make an argument, you'll always get one. At some point a judge has to close the tap. There simply is no way to make any hay out of any of the procedures Judge Jones employed in this case. They were all well within his discretion and well within typical trial practice. Mentok raises some questions about the trial record. The only observation I want to make here is that even the Discovery Institute recognized that this particular school board in Dover had gone off the rails and was trying to promote a particular kind of creationism rather than ID generally. I think you can criticize Judge Jones for pontificating unnecessarily about the philosophy of science, but I don't think you can really fault the ultimate conclusion that this particular school board was acting in violation of the existing establishment clause jurisprudence. I do agree, BTW, that the existing Supreme Court establishment clause jurisprudence is out of whack with the actual aims of the first amendment, but there's nothing Judge Jones or any other trial judge can do about that. Personally, I think school choice and vouchers are one possible way forward from this thicket, but that's a whole 'nother can of worms.dopderbeck
December 14, 2006
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DaveScot, "There’s plenty of people who think that teaching evolution absent any criticism or alternative beliefs is the state disfavoring certain religions." It has become abundantly clear that there is an active anti-religous movement that cloaks itself in the cloak of science, and gets respect from the scientific community. When the scientific community is actively prosolatizing for a particular religious perspective, even if that perspective is a "religion is wrong" perspective, teaching it unfettered is, as far as I am concerned solidly in opposition to the first ammendment.bFast
December 14, 2006
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If any of you have not read the closing argument by the defense, you should, it sums up truthfully what went on before and during the trial in a concise and accurate fashion as opposed to the judge who was off in lal la land in his opinion. Also it makes solid case that Dover did nothing wrong. Read it at http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/dover/day21pm2.html#day21pm287mentok
December 14, 2006
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dopderbeck you wrote:
There was evidence in the trial record that at least some segments of the local public understood the Dover policy to be an effort to teach Biblical creationism under the broader ID banner. There was also evidence that some of the school board members viewed it this way.
From what I read of the court transcript it appears that some local media was saying the school board wanted to introduce "creationism" and that the head of the school board was saying that they were always only talking about intelligent design. He claimed that the media misrepresented the school board by stating they wanted to teach creationism. That is something we see all the time i.e ID being called creationism. When we look at the actual policy put in place it was nothing more then a couple paragraphs that mentioned that evolution is a theory with many unsolved problems so therefore it can't be called a fact, that there is another theory called ID which can be read about on the students own time if they so choose. There was no mention of creationism. I seem to be inthe dark about how some local people's sentiments have any relevance to the establishment clause. If that were the case then it should come down to a vote by the local populace. Otherwise you want to give more empowerment to one or another based on what criterion? If local values and sentiments or beliefs play such a big role then it should be found out democratically what those beliefs are. The plaintiffs also argued that the school board forbid the teachings on origins of species, macroevolution, and common descent. The judge summed up like this
326. Board members ensured that the teaching of evolution at Dover High School would be limited to propositions that did not conflict with their religious beliefs, and prevented the teaching of key aspects of the theory that did conflict with their religious beliefs, such as macroevolution, speciation, and common ancestry.
If you read the transcripts of the trial then you will see the above as a total misrepresentation. The schools long time unwritten policy had been not to teach about origin of life i.e abiogenesis. And for good reason if you are an evolutionist i.e. because abiogenesis seems to be impossible or extremely improbable in the best of circumstances when examined closely. Therefore the origin of life is a major chink in evolutionary dogma's armour. So it was standard practice not to mention origin of life in Dover just as it is standard practice for most evolutionists everywhere to claim the the origin of life is irrelevant to evolution. Instead they taught the usual standard evolutionary dogma. The science teachers objected to the book 'Of Pandas and People" because the subtitle was "The Central Question of Biological Origins". They claimed that since the school policy was not to teach about origins of life that it would contradict school policy to recommend a book which mentions origins, and they felt they would be breaking the rules by mentioning the Pandas book. Now why would this upset them? Because the spontaneous origin of life from simple chemicals (abiogenesis) has been resistant to any coherent theory or explanation. Yet here comes the ID theorists who have a theory about the origin of life. So in order to assuage the concern of the science teachers they were going to make the until then unwritten official policy not to mention origin of life, into a codified rule. The teachers then complained that they feared that if they were asked about the origin of life that they didn't know how to respond due to the new rule. It was a bait and switch on their part. They wanted the rule of no mention of origin of life to remain as it had been, but then when it was officially codified then they all of a sudden had a concern about it. So the school board told them not to worry and that they were free to answer as they saw fit. But still the teachers said they felt they were being compelled to teach origins of life sijmply because of having to mention ID. Of course that was nothing more then a silly nonsensical tactic to try to get the mention of ID removed. This was turned into a misrepresentation by the plaintiffs lawyer who claimed that ruling out teaching origin of life meant ruling out teaching origin of species, macroevolution and common descent. When in fact those are the central tenets of evolution and those topics were not being ruled out of bounds. In fact the teachers were told to follow the state guidelines on what must be taught about evolution.mentok
December 14, 2006
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Actually, the Discovery Institute's finding that 90 percent of the ID-as-science section was plagiarized from the ACLU suggests that this section is very one-sided. How much of the remaining 10 percent came from the defendants? The ACLU material certainly does not contain any arguments supporting the defendants, not even for the purpose of rebutting those arguments (this material is from the ACLU's "proposed findings of fact and conclusions of law" brief and does not contain any of the defendants' arguments or rebuttals of the defendants' arguments). It seems that Jones should have presented some material from the defendants, if for no other reason than to show why he rejected this material. Some people have this strange idea that the sole purpose of judicial opinions is to present the winning side's arguments and that it is out of order for a judicial opinion to discuss the losing side's arguments. These final post-trial "proposed findings of fact and conclusions of law" briefs ought to be abolished because they contain nothing but the unrebutted and sometimes unsupported assertions of the parties. Where there is no courtroom trial, I believe that the usual briefing procedure is to have a plaintiff's "opening" brief which is answered by a defendant's "answering" brief which is answered by a plaintiff's "reply" brief (the parties are called appellants and appellees in the appeals courts and petitioners and respondents in the Supreme Court -- the appellants and the petitioners can be either the original plaintiffs or the original defendants). Jones allowed briefs rebutting the "proposed findings of fact and conclusions of law" briefs but the procedure that was used in the Dover case was still quite a bit different from normal briefing procedure.Larry Fafarman
December 14, 2006
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I say this is where it gets dicey for the ID side because the motivations and interests of local school board members often are different than those of ID theorists generally. Often local school board members really do want to introduce YEC views into the curriculum, and use ID as a vehicle for that. And this gets completely out of the realm of theories about the origins and development of life and moves entirely into the realm of theories of government, i.e what should be the powers of locally elected and accountable legislative bodies vs what should be the powers of unelected and unaccountable federal judges. And please note that before Engel and Abington, our public schools were nowhere near the intellectual wastelands that they are today.tribune7
December 14, 2006
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dopderbeck There was evidence in the trial record that at least some segments of the local public understood the Dover policy to be an effort to teach Biblical creationism under the broader ID banner. There's plenty of people who think that teaching evolution absent any criticism or alternative beliefs is the state disfavoring certain religions. I was pretty sure the constitution guarantees equal treatment under the law. Where's the justice for all those folks?DaveScot
December 14, 2006
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mentok said: Religion is a specific theology, philosophy, ethics, morals, etc. ID does not endorse any religion. I can see not allowing a presentation of ID which endorses a religious teaching. This is where the Kitzmiller case gets dicey for the ID side. The "endorsement" test is measured by local public perception. There was evidence in the trial record that at least some segments of the local public understood the Dover policy to be an effort to teach Biblical creationism under the broader ID banner. There was also evidence that some of the school board members viewed it this way. Whether or not that characterization is fair as applied to ID generally, there was evidence that it was a fair characterization of the school board's conduct and its effect on local public perception in this particular case. If the judge had restricted the case to this evidence, it could have been decided without the broader focus on whether ID generally can be demarcated as "science." I say this is where it gets dicey for the ID side because the motivations and interests of local school board members often are different than those of ID theorists generally. Often local school board members really do want to introduce YEC views into the curriculum, and use ID as a vehicle for that. This happened after Kitzmiller in a California school district, for example, and the Discovery Institute quickly distanced itself from that effort. Given the conflicting interests of local YEC advocates and the existing establishment clause jurisprudence, my view is that those who are interested in design as a philosophical, theological, or scientific proposition should forget about introducing it into public schools at this point, get over Kitzmiller, and focus on theoretical work and research.dopderbeck
December 14, 2006
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But it does tarnish Christian witness, I believe, for well-known Christians and Christian organizations to make allegations of plagiarism, stealing, etc., that are obviously false. Dop, a couple points. First, the allegation is not obviously false -- namely plagerism as defined and commonly understood is signing one's name to someone else's ideas and Jones did that. Now, you point out that what he did is not an uncommon practice among judges and doesn't violate any judicial standards in ethics, and it is good of you to do so, and, yes, it would be better not to describe Jones' action as "plagerism" since that implies a violation of ethics and standards, and the use of words and ideas without permission. The second point is that regardless of what we call it, what Jones did was shockley and would convince me that he is an intellectual lightweight who doesn't deserve the position of influence he holds, if I had not already been rather certain of it.tribune7
December 14, 2006
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dopderbeck you quoted Justic O'Connor:
The proper inquiry under the purpose prong of Lemon, I submit, is whether the government intends to convey a message of endorsement or disapproval of religion
That is very different then what motivates people. What she said is that the action itself has to convey a message of endorsement of religion. ID is clearly not an endorsement of religion. Religion is a specific theology, philosophy, ethics, morals, etc. ID does not endorse any religion. I can see not allowing a presentation of ID which endorses a religious teaching. Like saying that "the bible says this or that". But simply interpreting scientific data to show inherent design is no different then what is taught in social studies classes when they learn about archeology. If we take her word as law then we have to conclude that disallowing the mentioning of ID because it may have a religious implication for some people is going against the establishment clause. If the implication of ID is religious in some way to some people then to disallow it goes against the establishment clause by "sending a message of disapproval" towards a person's personal religious belief. What ID is is empirical study of the same exact data which is studied by evolutionists. The only difference is in interpretation of that data. So if ID is disallowed and evolution is allowed then that is the government conveying a disapproval of scientific research based on people's individual religious beliefs while promoting to the exclusion of all other existential ontologies the evolutionary manifesto as state endorsed absolute truth on the question of human origins, which to most people is a religious endorsement of evolution because the state is sponsoring and promoting that most people's religions are wrong. Evolution may not be a religion per se, but it is a religious point of view because it historically was created as counter to religious views and is in practical effect insisting that most all religions are bogus. Anyways. The way evolutionary theory is taught is that it starts off with the premise that all scientific research will confirm evolution because evolution is a truism. ID takes a critical look at that basal paradigm, it plays the role of keeping science honest by proposing an alternative interpretation of the same data and thereby making science more about actual findings then dogma.mentok
December 14, 2006
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I'm sorry, I realized I mis-stated something and want to clarify. The Lemon v. Kurtzman test asks "(1) whether the government practice had a secular purpose; (2) whether its principal or primary effect advanced or inhibited religion; and (3) whether it created an excessive entanglement of the government with religion." Lately, the Supreme Court has focused on the "purpose" and "effect" prongs of this test, and has melded them together into something called the "endorsement" test. Justice O'Connor explained how purpose and intent realte to the "endorsement" test in Lynch v. Donelly as follows: "The proper inquiry under the purpose prong of Lemon, I submit, is whether the government intends to convey a message of endorsement or disapproval of religion. " Thus, under either the traditional Lemon test or the collapsed endorsement test, purpose and intent are central to the case. The "endorsement" test effectively "collapse[s] the ‘purpose’ and ‘effect’ prongs [of the Lemon test]into a single inquiry." Id. at 250.dopderbeck
December 14, 2006
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Mentok said: I disagree with the first part of the above. The case was not supposed to decide motivations. Under the existing establishment clause jurisprudence, governmental purpose is the principal test of whether a given policy is constitutional or not. (The Lemon v. Kurtzman standard includes governmental purpose as one prong of a three-part test, but in recent Supreme Court jurisprudence the other parts of the test tend to collapse into the "purpose" prong.) Thus, the court did indeed have to decide a question of motivation -- it was the essential question the court had to decide under the existing law. You raise some excellent questions about the potential problems with this approach to the establishment clause. Nevertheless, it is the approach the Supreme Court and appellate courts have taken, and Judge Jones therefore was bound to take it as well.dopderbeck
December 14, 2006
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dopderbeck you wrote:
The specific case or controversy in Kitzmiller was whether the particular policy of one local school board was religiously motivated. The court could easily have decided that question without a broad discursus on “science,” which the court was ill-prepared to handle and which was poorly done.
I disagree with the first part of the above. The case was not supposed to decide motivations. Otherwise we could question the motivations of those who want to teach anything, including evolution. Is a gym teacher not going to be allowed to teach because he is motivated by his personal belief that by making children healthy that they will be more likely to go to church? Will an evolution textbook not be allowed to be used because the author is motivated by his desire to dispel students possible belief in God? Motivation should have been irrelevant. But it was clear that the lawyer for the claimant was obssessed with trying to prove that the members of the school board were religiously motivated as if that was somehow relevant. I know there has been precedent where motivation has been cited as legitimate in a previous somewhat similar case. But that was clearly unconstitutional and absurdly irrational. If motivation is to be a legal basis for determining what is or isn't establishment of religion by the government, then everything the government is in charge of could be challenged in court based on the motivations of the people who make the decisions, laws or rulings, or whatever. Can a congressman be impeached because his religion teaches him that giving to the destitute is mandatory for the wealthy and by that motivation he votes to give aid to the suffering people in the Sudan? Wouldn't that be establishment of religion if motivation can be used to determine it? It's beyond ridiculous that motivation can be considered relevant. The only thing that was relevant was whether or not the mentioning of ID was giving state establishment of a religion. Since ID is nothing but the study of non religious empirical data, then it is simply not establishment of religion. If the same exact data and approach and arguments that are made by ID proponents are made by someone who claims that the intelligent designer is an alien life form from another gsolar system then it would be perfectly allowable? But if you leave the identity of the designer open then it is not allowable? If ID is religion then all philosophy classes which have in their curriculum some philosopher who advocates some kind of belief in a non human intelligence which interacts with our planet must also be not allowed. Also there are physicists who teach about the anthropic principle who must be censored. Any curriculum which teaches religion (most do have courses which include a study of world religions) must be shut down because they are mentioning views which advocate the possibility of a non human intelligence which interacts with our world. Poets and fiction and science fiction writers must be also carefully scrutinized to make sure there is absolutely no chance of students hearing that there may be a non human intelligence which interacts with our world. Especially if those author's motives are unknown.mentok
December 14, 2006
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pk4_paul:
Point two: There are even those (primarily religious fundamentalists) who feel that ID itself tarnishes Christian theology, since it proposes direct, and possibly ’stepwise’ intervention to achieve creation, rather than the Biblical view. This is untrue.
You don't know the religious fundamentalist communities very well do you. I know many who say very simply, "the Bible says that creation took place in six days, to view other wise is to tarnish Christian theology." If you read the statement you quoted again, it is not a declaration that ID does tarnish Christian theology, but that "some people feel" (I admit "feel" is psychbabble that really means "think" or "believe" in this case) I assure you, the community that believes that ID "tarnishes Christian theology" is a significant group! Dopderbeck, I have appreciated hearing your voice of experience on this topic. I agree with you that if the ID community shoots its mouth off without knowing courtroom standards, it is shooting itself in the foot.bFast
December 14, 2006
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pk4_paul - Judge Jones is a highly sought after speaker. Tribute: How can that be?????? Where could he find the time????? It is fair, I think, to criticize Judge Jones' hunger for publicity. Trial judges don't belong on the cover of popular magazines; they belong in the courtroom resolving cases.dopderbeck
December 14, 2006
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Eric Anderson asked: Would it not be interesting to know how much of the ACLU brief on this topic was in fact not written by the ACLU attorneys, but by the various parties advising the ACLU attorneys? I can almost guarantee that the attorneys got the information for this part of their submissions from outside "experts." There's nothing unusual about this -- when I litigated patent cases, I didn't pretend to personally know everything about every technology without consulting an expert. However, you do raise a good point: the broad philosphical question of what constitutes "science" should not have been addressed by the court. Courts are supposed to decide specific "cases and controversies." The specific case or controversy in Kitzmiller was whether the particular policy of one local school board was religiously motivated. The court could easily have decided that question without a broad discursus on "science," which the court was ill-prepared to handle and which was poorly done.dopderbeck
December 14, 2006
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DaveScot said: Try again and this time try to answer the question that I actually ask. Whether something is egregious or stunning is subjective; a matter of personal opinion not of fact. It's disappointing, Dave, that you're trying to take this tone and posture when you've been so thoroughly rebutted on the whole "plagairism" canard even by the Discovery Institute itself. And really, it' s not necessary. Let's have a civil conversation, even if we disagree. Anyway, "egregious" and "stunning" are not merely subjective statements. They are also factual statements that convey that the Court's opinion severely violated an objective norm of judicial conduct. This is false. Thus, when I say the DI's press releases were "inappropriate," I'm saying I believe they were factually misleading as well as unbecoming. Their misleading nature is evidenced, I think, in how they were picked up in the popular media -- including in the Family Research Council mass e-mail that accused Judge Jones of "stealing" and in this blog post that used the term "plagiarism." If you disagree, that's fine, but I have 13 years of courtroom experience and Supreme Court and Third Circuit precedent on my side. leebowman said: Now to further address the last point, does this critical assault on the ruling ‘tarnish’ Christian witness? No, since it is legitimate. I agree that it does not tarnish Christian witness to criticize the ruling per se. I've criticized it myself, on the grounds that the case could have been decided without any philosophical discussion of what "science" means. But it does tarnish Christian witness, I believe, for well-known Christians and Christian organizations to make allegations of plagiarism, stealing, etc., that are obviously false.dopderbeck
December 14, 2006
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pk4_paul -Judge Jones is a highly sought after speaker. How can that be?????? Where could he find the time????? Don't you know our courts are so crowded that judges have to cut and paste their reasoning from the ACLU?????tribune7
December 14, 2006
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Point two: There are even those (primarily religious fundamentalists) who feel that ID itself tarnishes Christian theology, since it proposes direct, and possibly ’stepwise’ intervention to achieve creation, rather than the Biblical view. This is untrue. ID infers intelligence as a causal component for life. There is nothing unbiblical about this. To the contrary it affirms creation. Where religious critics (which includes those affirming no God as well as believers) go wrong is in not separating an empirical claim from a claim that is outside the scientific realm. IDers do not take issue with standard theorists based on biblical passages but rather based on scientific data. We don’t know the mechanism of creation, but to properly address science, creation by a mechanistic method involving genetic alterations is one possibility, and the one likely to be hypothesized. I would remind the writer that before one can theorize about genetic alterations there must exist a genome that can change. ID is not just a counterpart to evolution. An inference of intelligence can be made at point of origins or any point thereafter. With ID, the basic premise at this time is design, without defining the agency or its method(s). But to be ‘allowed in’ by science, methodologies need to be proposed as well. The methodology entails testing hypotheses and in general can follow a Popperian approach.pk4_paul
December 14, 2006
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The DI's December 12, 2006 press release says Judge Jones' adoption of the ACLU's proposed findings is "stunning," and further states that "[f]or all practical purposes, Jones allowed ACLU attorneys to write nearly the entire section of his opinion analyzing whether intelligent design is science. As a result, this central part of Judge Jones' ruling reflected essentially no original deliberative activity or independent examination of the record on Jones' part." IMHO, these statements also are unfair and/or misleading. It was not "stunning …"
Perhaps not stunning by prevailing standards of judicial fiat, but certainly 'stunning' considering his taking the liberty of establishing biased and frankly false statements as fact in his conclusion.
" … nor, according to the U.S. Supreme Court cite I've supplied, would an appellate court presume that Judge Jones engaged in no "original deliberative activity or independent examination of the record."
They might, in an appeal where certain facts were pointed out to them, i.e. that Jones stepped beyond his authority in this case by making pronouncements against ID per se, and not just the actions of the school board. I predict that those pronouncements, while hailed as setting judicial precedent, will be disputed in a subsequent legal challenge.
The fallout from the DI press release, I think, illustrates my point. As a result of it, we've had in this thread numerous accusations of plagiarism and judicial misconduct, which are unfounded … All of this hurts the credibility of ID generally and, even more troubling to me, tarnishes the Christian witness of everyone who opposes materialism on specifically Christian grounds.
Point one: The term 'plagiarism' should never have been used, since quoting testimony by a judge in an opinion/ conclusion certainly is not. A better term, and one used a lot to criticize judges for similar actions is to be a 'rubber stamp' for one side or the other. I think that descriptor fits. Point two: There are even those (primarily religious fundamentalists) who feel that ID itself tarnishes Christian theology, since it proposes direct, and possibly 'stepwise' intervention to achieve creation, rather than the Biblical view. We don't know the mechanism of creation, but to properly address science, creation by a mechanistic method involving genetic alterations is one possibility, and the one likely to be hypothesized. With ID, the basic premise at this time is design, without defining the agency or its method(s). But to be 'allowed in' by science, methodologies need to be proposed as well. So yes, this conflicts somewhat with fundamentalist religious beliefs, but it is a necessary approach for legitimizing Intelligent Design within the scientific realm. Now to further address the last point, does this critical assault on the ruling 'tarnish' Christian witness? No, since it is legitimate. It will certainly raise hackles on the materialist side and bring scathing rebuttals, but we must stand our ground. The ruling (against ID) is blatantly false and must somehow be amended or reversed. Otherwise, the movement to establish intelligent design as science is severely set back.leebowman
December 14, 2006
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dopderbeck I asked
Is there anything in the Discovery press release that’s not accurate or is not something the public has a right to know?
You replied I’d say yes, IMHO there were a number of things in both the December 12 and December 13 DI press releases that were inappropriate, as follows: I didn't ask about what you thought was appropriate. I asked about what was factually incorrect. Your penchant for creating straw men by changing the actual words used is annoying. Try again and this time try to answer the question that I actually ask. Whether something is egregious or stunning is subjective; a matter of personal opinion not of fact. If I'd asked if the Discovery piece reflected any personal opinion you disagreed with then your answer would be a fine one. But I didn't ask that. I asked if there was anything that wasn't accurate.DaveScot
December 14, 2006
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Having not read the Discovery Institute analysis, I offer the following as food for thought, rather than definitive opinions: 1. Are we to expect that the ACLU attorneys are themselves qualified to speak on the question of the definition of science? 2. Do we think that the ACLU attorneys actually researched definitive works on the philosophy of science, did an analysis of the facts and came to the conclusion that ID is not science? After all, this is not a legal conclusion and is not central the case, as I understand it. 3. Would it not be interesting to know how much of the ACLU brief on this topic was in fact not written by the ACLU attorneys, but by the various parties advising the ACLU attorneys? Is some of the ACLU "analysis" in fact nothing more than parroting of talking points from our friends who oppose ID, such as, dare I suggest perhaps our friends in Oakland, California? Just food for thought . . .Eric Anderson
December 13, 2006
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Judge Jones is a highly sought after speaker. Does anyone have an idea as to how well compensated he is for his efforts? Is it alarming that a judge would make considerable income based on the notoriety of his ruling? Or does he make speeches pro bono? Justice need not be tainted by an attraction to fame and fortune.pk4_paul
December 13, 2006
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dopderbeck this whole debate on whether or not it is acceptable behavior for a judge to copy the findings of the winning side in a court case for use in his decision is to me not the main point of this whole brouhaha. Although in a court case where there is a simple and clear cut case of right and wrong presented in a case, and the right wins, then it seems to me that a judge copying the winning sides briefs to whatever degree if that brief was factual and not full of errors, would be fine due to the overworked court system. But when there is a case where the judge decides to write about something outside the bounds of the case, outside of clear right and wrong in a legal sense, then what excuse does he have? If the reason for copying briefs is the congestion of the courts and the time restrictions judges labor under, then shouldn't the judge stick to the law in his decision? His copying of the ACLU's brief was an argument that was outside the bounds of the case, outside his legal authoritah. What did he think he was doing? Judging the scientific pros and cons of ID or evolution had no place in the case. If he was so pressed for time then why did he have time to copy irrelevant material in order to bias the entire world against the validity of ID and extol the virtues of evolution? I am glad this debate has taken place whereas you seem to think it harms the ID movement. From my perspective it refocuses light on a ridiculous event which was heralded by so many prejudiced and or uneducated and gullible people in their haste to see the dreaded "creationists" put back in their pandoras box. When looked at in an unbiased and non prejudicial fashion, in hindsight, after the passion of the moment has faded, then we can show that not only was the judge ridiculous and his opinion was worthless, but that also so many gullible people were taken in and fooled by prejudiced people with a fascist agenda to achieve at the expense of truth and justice.mentok
December 13, 2006
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dopderbeck said (comment #80) --
Larry cites a portion of a speech given in 1963, which is in turn quoted in a 1964 Supreme Court opinion. The practice has changed significantly since then, in part because of the volume of cases trial courts must handle.
No one was rushing Jones. He was given plenty of time to write his opinion. People have argued that Jones' "plagiarism" of findings of scientific facts should be excused because he is not a scientist. However, he also plagiarized an important "conclusion of law" in the conclusion section of the opinion: "we will enter an order permanently enjoining Defendants . . . . from requiring teachers to denigrate or disparage the scientific theory of evolution . . . ." (see comment #26). He did not even bother to include that prohibition in the opinion's final order, showing that he just mindlessly copied that prohibition from the plaintiffs' final briefs. If there is anyplace where Jones should have showed some independence of thought, it is here.Larry Fafarman
December 13, 2006
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"Counting down the seconds until Raging Bee is banned for being a troll by an ID proponent who just happens to be an agnostic…ironic, eh? We’ll support controversy, just not idiocy. " [Comment by Patrick — December 13, 2006 @ 10:25 am] "I’m beginning to find you tiresome, Ra[g]ing Bee. Goodbye. –WmAD" [Comment by William Dembski — December 13, 2006 @ 10:35 am] Wow, Patrick - you're good. You're REALLY good. ;)Douglas
December 13, 2006
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