Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Key prediction of Darwinian evolution falsified?

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

Kirk Durston writes

Biological life requires thousands of different protein families, about 70% of which are ‘globular’ proteins, each with a 3-dimensional shape that is unique to each family of proteins. An example is shown in the picture at the top of this post. This 3D shape is necessary for a particular biological function and is determined by the sequence of the different amino acids that make up that protein. In other words, it is not biology that determines the shape, but physics. Sequences that produce stable, functional 3D structures are so rare that scientists today do not attempt to find them using random sequence libraries. Instead, they use information they have obtained from reverse-engineering biological proteins to intelligently design artificial proteins.

Indeed, our 21st century supercomputers are not powerful enough to crunch the variables and locate novel 3D structures. Nonetheless, a foundational prediction of neo-Darwinian theory is that a ploddingly slow evolutionary process consisting of genetic drift, mutations, insertions and deletions must be able to ‘find’ not just one, but thousands of sequences pre-determined by physics that will have different stable, functional 3D structures. So how does this falsifiable prediction hold up when tested against real data? As ought to be the case in science, I have made available my program so that you can run your own data and verify for yourself the kinds of probabilities these protein families represent. More.

Readers? Sensible responses wanted. (It’s getting so Darwin’s tenured trolls have nothing to offer but sneers, persecution, and—in the case of those afflicted with religiosity—Jesus-hollers in response.)

Follow UD News at Twitter!

Comments
@mung I wrote:
Again, I would suggest the current crop of ID is a form of inductivism that assumes the unseen, the designer of the biosphere, resembles the seen, human designers, but is just “better” in some inexplicable sense.
Mung:
Sort of like knowledge then?
Not sort of. It's an example of a bad philosophy in respect to knowledge. Mung:
No mystery. It has been adopted.
So, Uncommon Decent can close up shop? What will News have to complain about?Popperian
August 1, 2015
August
08
Aug
1
01
2015
04:26 PM
4
04
26
PM
PDT
ppolish
Like I said, the motion of molecules are guided by Laws. Add some Omniscience to the Copenhagen Interpretation – and “Many Worlds” become impossible. God knows if the cat is alive or dead – One World. But God lets us choose. Omniscience + Free Will.
Apparently, you do not understand the Many Worlds Interpretation. Each instance of what we consider a classical universe is an emergent property of the a greater scope of reality known as the multiverse, which represent histories in which each version of the cat is alive, while others are dead or never born. God, if he exists, could know of the outcome in each of these histories. Nothing about his supposed omniscience would prevent this. However, the multiverse does conflict with the idea of a God that judges a single instance of us based on a single history of our choices and actions and sends us to a single afterlife of reward or punishment. In other words, if you believe the Bible is sufficient to tell us what we need to know, the MWI must be false because it's absent. But the belief that the Bible is sufficient is itself a Biblical claim about the Bible. daves:
In fact, I believe the Copenhagen interpretation already conflicts with MWI, no?
The Copenhagen interpretation is an instrumentalist theory in that it doesn't claim to describe reality. It's about what we will experience, not what reality is actually like. Those two things are not the same. As far as the Copenhagen interpretation is concerned, the wave function in QM could just as well be a useful fiction to predict outcomes.Popperian
August 1, 2015
August
08
Aug
1
01
2015
04:01 PM
4
04
01
PM
PDT
Popperian: Again, I would suggest the current crop of ID is a form of inductivism that assumes the unseen... Sort of like knowledge then? Popperian: And it’s a mystery why ID hasn’t been adopted by science? No mystery. It has been adopted.Mung
August 1, 2015
August
08
Aug
1
01
2015
03:39 PM
3
03
39
PM
PDT
News seems to be at it again: posting stories thinking they support ID when the really do not. Again, I would suggest the current crop of ID is a form of inductivism that assumes the unseen, the designer of the biosphere, resembles the seen, human designers, but is just "better" in some inexplicable sense. Namely, when pressed to qualify in what sense the designer is "better", no elaboration is provided in any significant sense. It's a naive as suggesting God is just like us, but infinitely better in some inexplicable sense. For example, scientists who want to create new proteins are intelligent designers, right? Furthermore, wouldn't scientists exhibit what you consider free will, intent, etc.? Yet, despite checking all the boxes that ID appeals to as an explanation for biological features, scientists simply cannot create new proteins from scratch, even when using tools such as supercomputers. So, as I've pointed out over and over again, merely being an intelligent designer with intent, etc. simply isn't sufficient as an explanation. Furthermore, this is an example of how ID proponents grossly underestimate the role that knowledge plays. Proteins, and the biological features they result in, are the kind of transformations of matter that occur when the requisite knowledge of how to perform them is present. Knowledge is independent of a knowing subject and anyone's belief. Example? If I accidentally receive plans to build a boat, rather than the car I intended to build, my intent or belief doesn't somehow magically prevent me from ending up with a boat if I follow the instructions. Right? I'd end up with a boat regardless. It's unclear how the biosphere is any different. Nor does ID explain the knowledge found in biological organisms. As such, it's an explanation-less theory that can be boiled down to "That's just what the designer must have wanted". Yet, the OP unwittingly points out that a designer just wanting something is itself insufficient. In addition, any such designer would itself be well adapted to serve the purpose of designing organisms. And being well adapted to serve a purpose is what it means for something to exhibit the appearance of design. As such, any such designer itself cannot itself be an explanation for the appearance of design. That just pushes the problem up a level without improvising it. Finally, neo-darwinism doesn't suggest that modern day proteins were randomly created from scratch, all at once. That's a strawman. And it's a mystery why ID hasn't been adopted by science?Popperian
August 1, 2015
August
08
Aug
1
01
2015
03:24 PM
3
03
24
PM
PDT
Zachriel:
Let’s start with, they descended through incremental change from common ancestors.
Then start with the evidence for such a thing.Virgil Cain
August 1, 2015
August
08
Aug
1
01
2015
07:46 AM
7
07
46
AM
PDT
bpragmatic: No, there isn’t any evidence any proteins evolved by natural selection and/ or drift Let's start with, they descended through incremental change from common ancestors. bpragmatic: And there is evidence that random sequences can fold into simple functional proteins. That's right. bpragmatic: Yet there isn’t any evidence that natural selection and/ or drift can produce those random sequences There's evidence, albeit tentative. Most available evidence concerns evolution of life, not the origin of the first replicators. ETA: However, experiments with random sequneces shows that sequence space isn't that barren.Zachriel
August 1, 2015
August
08
Aug
1
01
2015
07:37 AM
7
07
37
AM
PDT
"Zachriel: Yes. There is evidence that new proteins have evolved No, there isn’t any evidence any proteins evolved by natural selection and/ or drift And there is evidence that random sequences can fold into simple functional proteins. Yet there isn’t any evidence that natural selection and/ or drift can produce those random sequences" Hey Zachriel. Why don't you put an end to this discussion and give the guy the evidence needed to answer his objections? Why wouldn't you want similar evidence before you proclaim that you know or even can estimate the capabilities of the alleged "mechanisms" you allege have the capabilities required?bpragmatic
July 31, 2015
July
07
Jul
31
31
2015
08:47 PM
8
08
47
PM
PDT
as to agent causality vs. the blind, i.e. 'it just happened for no particular reason whatsoever', causality of atheists: Non local, i.e. beyond space and time, quantum actions provide solid support for the argument from motion. Also known as Aquinas’ First way. (Of note, St Thomas Aquinas lived from 1225 to 7 March 1274.)
Aquinas’ First Way – (The First Mover – Unmoved Mover) - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qmpw0_w27As Aquinas’ First Way 1) Change in nature is elevation of potency to act. 2) Potency cannot actualize itself, because it does not exist actually. 3) Potency must be actualized by another, which is itself in act. 4) Essentially ordered series of causes (elevations of potency to act) exist in nature. 5) An essentially ordered series of elevations from potency to act cannot be in infinite regress, because the series must be actualized by something that is itself in act without the need for elevation from potency. 6) The ground of an essentially ordered series of elevations from potency to act must be pure act with respect to the casual series. 7) This Pure Act– Prime Mover– is what we call God. http://egnorance.blogspot.com/2011/08/aquinas-first-way.html
Or to put it much more simply:
"The ‘First Mover’ is necessary for change occurring at each moment." Michael Egnor – Aquinas’ First Way http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009/09/jerry_coyne_and_aquinas_first.html
The following video is also very helpful in understanding the "First Mover" argument:
The Laws of Nature (Have Never ‘Caused’ Anything) by C.S. Lewis – doodle video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_20yiBQAIlk
And in confirmation of this ancient ‘first mover’ argument, in the following video Anton Zeilinger, whose group is arguably the best group of experimentalists in quantum physics today, ‘tries’ to explain the double slit experiment to Morgan Freeman:
Quantum Mechanics - Double Slit Experiment. Is anything real? (Prof. Anton Zeilinger) - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayvbKafw2g0
Prof. Zeilinger makes this rather startling statement in the preceding video that meshes perfectly with the ‘first mover argument’::
"The path taken by the photon is not an element of reality. We are not allowed to talk about the photon passing through this or this slit. Neither are we allowed to say the photon passes through both slits. All this kind of language is not applicable." Anton Zeilinger
If that was not enough to get his point across, at the 4:12 minute mark in this following video,,,
Prof Anton Zeilinger Shows the Double-slit Experiment - video http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xgt69p_prof-anton-zeilinger-shows-the-double-slit-experiment_tech
Professor Zeilinger states,,,
"We know what the particle is doing at the source when it is created. We know what it is doing at the detector when it is registered. But we do not know what it is doing in-between." Anton Zeilinger
Moreover, Dean Radin, who spent many years at Princeton studying different aspects of consciousness, recently performed an experiment on the double slit trying to see if consciousness played any role in the collapse of the wave function. Not so surprisingly, he found evidence 'consistent with a consciousness-related interpretation of the quantum measurement problem'.
Consciousness and the double-slit interference pattern: six experiments - Radin - 2012 Abstract: A double-slit optical system was used to test the possible role of consciousness in the collapse of the quantum wavefunction. The ratio of the interference pattern’s double-slit spectral power to its single-slit spectral power was predicted to decrease when attention was focused toward the double slit as compared to away from it. Each test session consisted of 40 counterbalanced attention-toward and attention-away epochs, where each epoch lasted between 15 and 30 s(seconds). Data contributed by 137 people in six experiments, involving a total of 250 test sessions, indicate that on average the spectral ratio decreased as predicted (z = -4:36, p = 6•10^-6). Another 250 control sessions conducted without observers present tested hardware, software, and analytical procedures for potential artifacts; none were identified (z = 0:43, p = 0:67). Variables including temperature, vibration, and signal drift were also tested, and no spurious influences were identified. By contrast, factors associated with consciousness, such as meditation experience, electrocortical markers of focused attention, and psychological factors including openness and absorption, significantly correlated in predicted ways with perturbations in the double-slit interference pattern. The results appear to be consistent with a consciousness-related interpretation of the quantum measurement problem. http://www.deanradin.com/papers/Physics%20Essays%20Radin%20final.pdf …the “paradox” is only a conflict between reality and your feeling of what reality “ought to be.” Richard Feynman, in The Feynman Lectures on Physics, vol III, p. 18-9 (1965)
supplemental notes: The Agent causality of God was presupposed as true by the Christian founders of modern science. https://uncommondescent.com/physics/but-isnt-there-a-contradiction-between-quantum-theory-and-the-mind-as-meat/#comment-566184 Moreover, the denial of agent causality by atheists leads to the epistemological failure of science:
Sam Harris's Free Will: The Medial Pre-Frontal Cortex Did It - Martin Cothran - November 9, 2012 Excerpt: There is something ironic about the position of thinkers like Harris on issues like this: they claim that their position is the result of the irresistible necessity of logic (in fact, they pride themselves on their logic). Their belief is the consequent, in a ground/consequent relation between their evidence and their conclusion. But their very stated position is that any mental state -- including their position on this issue -- is the effect of a physical, not logical cause. By their own logic, it isn't logic that demands their assent to the claim that free will is an illusion, but the prior chemical state of their brains. The only condition under which we could possibly find their argument convincing is if they are not true. The claim that free will is an illusion requires the possibility that minds have the freedom to assent to a logical argument, a freedom denied by the claim itself. It is an assent that must, in order to remain logical and not physiological, presume a perspective outside the physical order. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/11/sam_harriss_fre066221.html (1) rationality implies a thinker in control of thoughts. (2) under materialism a thinker is an effect caused by processes in the brain. (3) in order for materialism to ground rationality a thinker (an effect) must control processes in the brain (a cause). (1)&(2) (4) no effect can control its cause. Therefore materialism cannot ground rationality. per Box UD
bornagain77
July 31, 2015
July
07
Jul
31
31
2015
11:30 AM
11
11
30
AM
PDT
Yes, Copenhagen conflicts with MWI. Omniscience renders it impossible. Human Science is better when the scientist believes in Omniscience BTW. Planck vs Everett in this case.ppolish
July 31, 2015
July
07
Jul
31
31
2015
10:02 AM
10
10
02
AM
PDT
ppolish,
Like I said, the motion of molecules are guided by Laws.
Sure, I agree with that.*
Add some Omniscience to the Copenhagen Interpretation – and “Many Worlds” become impossible.
In fact, I believe the Copenhagen interpretation already conflicts with MWI, no? *Edit: I would quibble with the word "guided". I agree that the motion of particles can be modeled by laws/equations, although there is going to be some stochastic component.daveS
July 31, 2015
July
07
Jul
31
31
2015
09:38 AM
9
09
38
AM
PDT
"Not all outcomes are equiprobable, certainly. That’s totally consistent with the Born Rule and the Copenhagen interpretation." Like I said, the motion of molecules are guided by Laws. Add some Omniscience to the Copenhagen Interpretation - and "Many Worlds" become impossible. God knows if the cat is alive or dead - One World. But God lets us choose. Omniscience + Free Will.ppolish
July 31, 2015
July
07
Jul
31
31
2015
09:33 AM
9
09
33
AM
PDT
ppolish,
DaveS, the motion of the molecules folding into a 3D protein structure is literally not random motion. Literally and figuratively NOT random motion. Random coil do not a 3D protein fold make. If the protein folding happening in your body at this moment became literally random – you would not be long for this world.
Not all outcomes are equiprobable, certainly. That's totally consistent with the Born Rule and the Copenhagen interpretation. Edit: Let me add that I am not claiming that this quantum randomness we are discussing plays any significant role in protein folding. Just that the Born Rule does not support your position on the non-randomness of molecule motion (in the context specifically of a gas filling a container).daveS
July 31, 2015
July
07
Jul
31
31
2015
09:16 AM
9
09
16
AM
PDT
jerry: For someone who has been around the debate for years and has no answer You asked. We answered. Then you moved the goal posts. jerry: It is just clarifying. Fair enough. Proteins and protein families usually form phylogenies, supporting common descent. You might want to move the goal posts a little farther.Zachriel
July 31, 2015
July
07
Jul
31
31
2015
09:07 AM
9
09
07
AM
PDT
DaveS, the motion of the molecules folding into a 3D protein structure is literally not random motion. Literally and figuratively NOT random motion. Random coil do not a 3D protein fold make. If the protein folding happening in your body at this moment became literally random - you would not be long for this world.ppolish
July 31, 2015
July
07
Jul
31
31
2015
09:06 AM
9
09
06
AM
PDT
Remarkably the author assumes that ‘evolution’ whatever that means did it.
They have no definition they stick with. They assume naturalistic processes but cannot support any of the processes they suppose did it.jerry
July 31, 2015
July
07
Jul
31
31
2015
09:01 AM
9
09
01
AM
PDT
jerry: But that is the debate, the origin of proteins or new alleles. jerry: provide the evidence for the origin of a new protein family. Is there a reason you moved the goalposts?
It is just clarifying. No goal post moving. You as well as anyone should know what the actual goal posts are. Actually it is much more complicated than new protein families. But your answer speaks volumes. For someone who has been around the debate for years and has no answer, all that is essentially available is meaningless nitpicking. No substance.jerry
July 31, 2015
July
07
Jul
31
31
2015
08:56 AM
8
08
56
AM
PDT
Silver Asiatic,
It's not a question of demonstrating random outputs in certain contexts. A roulette wheel produces what we'd consider ‘randomness'.
Maybe we're talking past each other then. That's all I'm saying about the motion of molecules---it literally is random, without the quotes, according to the dominant viewpoint (and so is the roulette wheel, since it does comprise a quantum system, although I believe the quantum randomness would be undetectable). Even if the larger universe is designed. Edit: Here's an interesting paper showing interference patterns generated by large organic molecules. This doesn't prove anything about "unguidedness" of the molecules certainly, but I found it interesting.daveS
July 31, 2015
July
07
Jul
31
31
2015
08:44 AM
8
08
44
AM
PDT
This has ben a most entertaining (and informative) thread, thanks to all who contributed! tiguy @ 10 -- well said! ppolish @ 33 -- hilarious. I will never look at waffles the same BA77 @ everywhere. I don't know how you do it. And quantum physics is as spooky as it gets. Gimmee Newton. I've just been reading about bacteria that eat electrons and nothing but, not needing the intermediate of food/glucose. Stick electrodes into the muck and let 'em have nothing else and they thrive. They can form into chains up to centimeters long relaying electrons one to another like a hyper-conductive wire. These are machines; elaborate, elegant, pure but not simple. Remarkably the author assumes that 'evolution' whatever that means did it. But it's so incredibly apparent that life is designed by a mind far beyond our own, why can't we muster the humility to admit it? electron-eating bacteria We are mist (password: praise)leodp
July 31, 2015
July
07
Jul
31
31
2015
08:21 AM
8
08
21
AM
PDT
daveS
What sort of experiment could in principle demonstrate random motion of molecules then?
It's not a question of demonstrating random outputs in certain contexts. A roulette wheel produces what we'd consider 'randomness'. But it's obviously a designed system and the outputs are not random (they occur within defined limits at defined frequencies and are built with intelligence to create an impression of chance outcomes). So, the problem is not claiming some aspect of a designed system is random. The problem is in mistaking random occurrences in the sub-set of a process and declaring that this is evidence of Unguidedness. It's like saying that the Roulette wheel itself came together randomly because the numbers it produces cannot be predicted.Silver Asiatic
July 31, 2015
July
07
Jul
31
31
2015
08:17 AM
8
08
17
AM
PDT
"Given the observed regularities in nature, biological organisms have evolved and diversified from common ancestors" As is usual for Zach's claim, that claim is pure balderdash! The one thing Darwinian evolution cannot do is call upon the regularities in nature:
WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? Evolution is True - Roger Highfield - January 2014 Excerpt: If evolutionary biologists are really Seekers of the Truth, they need to focus more on finding the mathematical regularities of biology, following in the giant footsteps of Sewall Wright, JBS Haldane, Ronald Fisher and so on. The messiness of biology has made it relatively hard to discern the mathematical fundamentals of evolution. Perhaps the laws of biology are deductive consequences of the laws of physics and chemistry. Perhaps natural selection is not a statistical consequence of physics, but a new and fundamental physical law. Whatever the case, those universal truths—'laws'—that physicists and chemists all rely upon appear relatively absent from biology. Little seems to have changed from a decade ago when the late and great John Maynard Smith wrote a chapter on evolutionary game theory for a book on the most powerful equations of science: his contribution did not include a single equation. http://www.edge.org/response-detail/25468 “It is our contention that if ‘random’ is given a serious and crucial interpretation from a probabilistic point of view, the randomness postulate is highly implausible and that an adequate scientific theory of evolution must await the discovery and elucidation of new natural laws—physical, physico-chemical, and biological.” Murray Eden, “Inadequacies of Neo-Darwinian Evolution as a Scientific Theory,” Mathematical Challenges to the Neo-Darwinian Interpretation of Evolution, editors Paul S. Moorhead and Martin M. Kaplan, June 1967, p. 109. Pauli’s ideas on mind and matter in the context of contemporary science - Harald Atmanspacher Excerpt: “In discussions with biologists I met large difficulties when they apply the concept of ‘natural selection’ in a rather wide field, without being able to estimate the probability of the occurrence in a empirically given time of just those events, which have been important for the biological evolution. Treating the empirical time scale of the evolution theoretically as infinity they have then an easy game, apparently to avoid the concept of purposesiveness. While they pretend to stay in this way completely ‘scientific’ and ‘rational,’ they become actually very irrational, particularly because they use the word ‘chance’, not any longer combined with estimations of a mathematically defined probability, in its application to very rare single events more or less synonymous with the old word ‘miracle.’” Wolfgang Pauli (pp. 27-28) http://www.igpp.de/english/tda/pdf/paulijcs8.pdf Active Information in Metabiology – Winston Ewert, William A. Dembski, Robert J. Marks II – 2013 Except page 9: Chaitin states [3], “For many years I have thought that it is a mathematical scandal that we do not have proof that Darwinian evolution works.” In fact, mathematics has consistently demonstrated that undirected Darwinian evolution does not work. http://bio-complexity.org/ojs/index.php/main/article/view/BIO-C.2013.4/BIO-C.2013.4
bornagain77
July 31, 2015
July
07
Jul
31
31
2015
08:13 AM
8
08
13
AM
PDT
Zach
In this case, it appears you are assuming that if there are regularities in nature that it is due to design.
It's more than mere regularities. It's ordered systemic processes and the laws that govern them. We know that design can produce ordered systems built on laws and consistent properties. So far, we know that non-design, chaos or randomness (equivalent terms in this context) do not. You'd need to show that chaos can produce integrated systems.
Given the observed regularities in nature,
Those regularities are unexplained however, so they shouldn't be given in the context of a question on origins. Again, you can't start with systems and then claim evidence for No Design. Ordered systems that produce consistent outputs are evidence of Design - not chaos. The challenge is to show how chaos can produce systems of laws and consistent properties. Failing that, we have indisputable evidence of Design.Silver Asiatic
July 31, 2015
July
07
Jul
31
31
2015
08:10 AM
8
08
10
AM
PDT
Silver Asiatic,
In these discussions, randomness is a synonym for unguided and therefore, for non-design.
What sort of experiment could in principle demonstrate random motion of molecules then? I would think the statement "the motion of molecules is nonrandom (i.e., guided)" is unfalsifiable under this interpretation. I think we're moving toward the discussion you and Zachriel are having, so I'll bow out.daveS
July 31, 2015
July
07
Jul
31
31
2015
07:44 AM
7
07
44
AM
PDT
Silver Asiatic: you’re starting with a system of consistent, repeated, ordered properties and laws ... Yes, we observe regularities in nature. Silver Asiatic: and claiming that as random. Um, no. Silver Asiatic: In the question of origins, the dichotomy is correct. It’s either random or design. Repeating your assertion doesn't argue for it. In this case, it appears you are assuming that if there are regularities in nature that it is due to design. With regard to biological evolution, you can express it thusly: Given the observed regularities in nature, biological organisms have evolved and diversified from common ancestors. Of course, every scientific theory has the same precept, so it's rather redundant to repeat it for every scientific claim.Zachriel
July 31, 2015
July
07
Jul
31
31
2015
07:40 AM
7
07
40
AM
PDT
The present conversation reminds me of this: It is interesting to note that Ludwig Boltzmann, an atheist, when he linked entropy and probability, did not, as Max Planck a Christian Theist points out in the following link, think to look for a constant for entropy:
The Austrian physicist Ludwig Boltzmann first linked entropy and probability in 1877. However, the equation as shown, involving a specific constant, was first written down by Max Planck, the father of quantum mechanics in 1900. In his 1918 Nobel Prize lecture, Planck said:This constant is often referred to as Boltzmann's constant, although, to my knowledge, Boltzmann himself never introduced it – a peculiar state of affairs, which can be explained by the fact that Boltzmann, as appears from his occasional utterances, never gave thought to the possibility of carrying out an exact measurement of the constant. Nothing can better illustrate the positive and hectic pace of progress which the art of experimenters has made over the past twenty years, than the fact that since that time, not only one, but a great number of methods have been discovered for measuring the mass of a molecule with practically the same accuracy as that attained for a planet. http://www.daviddarling.info/encyclopedia/B/Boltzmann_equation.html
I hold that the primary reason why Boltzmann, an atheist, never thought to carry out, or even propose, a precise measurement for the constant on entropy is that he, as an atheist, had thought he had arrived at the ultimate ‘random’ explanation for how everything in the universe operates when he had link probability with entropy. i.e. In linking entropy with probability, Boltzmann, again an atheist, thought he had explained everything that happens in the universe to a ‘random’ chance basis. To him, as an atheist, I hold that it would simply be unfathomable for him to conceive that the ‘random chance’ (probabilistic) events of entropy in the universe should ever be constrained by a constant that would limit the effects of ‘random’ entropic events of the universe. Whereas on the contrary, to a Christian Theist such as Planck, it is expected that even these seemingly random entropic events of the universe should be bounded by a constant. In fact modern science was born out of such thinking:
‘Men became scientific because they expected Law in Nature, and they expected Law in Nature because they believed in a Legislator. In most modern scientists this belief has died: it will be interesting to see how long their confidence in uniformity survives it. Two significant developments have already appeared—the hypothesis of a lawless sub-nature, and the surrender of the claim that science is true.’ Lewis, C.S., Miracles: a preliminary study, Collins, London, p. 110, 1947.
bornagain77
July 31, 2015
July
07
Jul
31
31
2015
07:30 AM
7
07
30
AM
PDT
Z
As for randomness producing non-random effect, the law of large numbers shows that particles moving randomly can act in non-random ways (such as a gas filling a chamber).
As mentioned elsewhere, you're starting with a system of consistent, repeated, ordered properties and laws and claiming that as random. In the question of origins, the dichotomy is correct. It's either random or design.Silver Asiatic
July 31, 2015
July
07
Jul
31
31
2015
07:29 AM
7
07
29
AM
PDT
daveS In these discussions, randomness is a synonym for unguided and therefore, for non-design. To claim the molecules move randomly you have to show that randomness produces quantum systems. Otherwise, we have a designed system and therefore non-random movement.Silver Asiatic
July 31, 2015
July
07
Jul
31
31
2015
07:25 AM
7
07
25
AM
PDT
Silver Asiatic,
If I give you a system then you'll be starting with something that shows evidence of design – and therefore non-randomness – as all systems do. As I said elsewhere, you can’t start with a system and then claim no-design. There needs to be evidence that chaos can produce a quantum system. Failing that, we have indisputable evidence of Design.
Design or lack of design is a separate argument. ppolish is saying that molecules do not move randomly, while the Born Rule, under the most orthodox interpretation, says they do. That's why I thought it strange that he would include it in the list he posted.daveS
July 31, 2015
July
07
Jul
31
31
2015
07:17 AM
7
07
17
AM
PDT
Silver Asiatic: Randomness does not produce non-random. That wasn't your original claim, which was that Design and Randomness form a valid dichotomy. As for randomness producing non-random effect, the law of large numbers shows that particles moving randomly can act in non-random ways (such as a gas filling a chamber).Zachriel
July 31, 2015
July
07
Jul
31
31
2015
07:16 AM
7
07
16
AM
PDT
Z
Non-random Design, so that’s a false dichotomy.
Randomness does not produce non-random. Only Design does.Silver Asiatic
July 31, 2015
July
07
Jul
31
31
2015
07:14 AM
7
07
14
AM
PDT
A Critique of the Many Worlds Interpretation - video (The problem of deriving the Born rule at the 4:30 minute mark) https://youtu.be/_42skzOHjtA?list=PL1mr9ZTZb3TViAqtowpvZy5PZpn-MoSK_&t=271 i.e. the Born rule is evidence of intelligent design!bornagain77
July 31, 2015
July
07
Jul
31
31
2015
07:10 AM
7
07
10
AM
PDT
1 2 3 4 5 6

Leave a Reply