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Playing Devil’s Advocate: Sudden Origins and Irreducible Complexity

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One thing that has always irked me is that rarely on this site do we find any critics of ID attempting to challenge the tools/methods of ID directly. For example, one could claim that “CSI isn’t a reliable indicator of intelligence” or “the explanatory filter breaks down under certain conditions” or “ID regularly produces false positives under x conditions” or “Irreducible Complexity can indeed be overcome via a Direct Pathway” and then show why and/or how. Instead, arguments are almost always made against the implications or we’re arguing over the interpretation of various data. Perhaps these challenges are not made because it’s so difficult to make sustainable arguments in this regard but I’d like to at least see people try. As such, I decided to make a topic on this myself with the last challenge to ID as the subject: “Irreducible Complexity can indeed be overcome via a Direct Pathway”

Behe has claimed there isn’t an evolutionary mechanism that can hope to overcome the IC information barrier via Direct Pathways. The possibility of Indirect Pathways does nothing to change the fact that forming a complex machine via a Direct Mechanism like RM+NS appears impossible. The role of Direct Pathways are, by definition, what makes the bacterial flagellum IC in the first place. The existence of possible Indirect Pathways does not change the designation of IC. But what if another evolutionary mechanism besides the modern synthesis aka Neo-Darwinism/RM+NS is capable of forming an IC structure Directly?

A quick refresher on Jeffrey Schwartz’s Sudden Origins:

The mechanism, the authors explain, is this: Environmental upheaval causes genes to mutate, and those altered genes remain in a recessive state, spreading silently through the population until offspring appear with two copies of the new mutation and change suddenly, seemingly appearing out of thin air. Those changes may be significant and beneficial (like teeth or limbs) or, more likely, kill the organism.

First off, I’ll admit I have not read Schwartz’s book on the subject so I may not do a good job of representing it. As an overall concept it seems to me that these “genes in a recessive state” are like a temporary buffer. In every generation changes are made to this buffer via random mutations, but without harming the survivability of the organisms. If this buffer is implemented before it’s a functional design Natural Selection will kill the organism off. Eventually it’s claimed the mutations in this buffer will result in a successful design and then will be merged with the rest of the organisms. The key to a Direct Pathway is that the evolving mechanisms keep the same function during each revision. Sudden Origins avoids this problem by making it so the function is only required to be active in the final form. By this manner Sudden Origins produces IC Directly.

So unless I’m missing something (besides the obvious possibility–read: I don’t know–of reality not meshing with the details of Sudden Origins) Schwartz’s work in its basic form appears to at least offer a “conceptual challenge” to Behe’s Irreducible Complexity. I myself heavily doubt the validity of Sudden Origins but it would be interesting to point out that it might be a “solution” to the IC Problem which at least is a far better answer than clinging to implausible Indirect Pathways. Schwartz’s own theo…er, posited idea seems to rely far too much on Homeobox genes to do its magic but the concept of a separate buffer where new design plans can be tested and modified without harming the survivability of the species is an interesting one.

Here is a book review of Sudden Origins:

http://www.macrodevelopment.org/library/Schwartz.html

Now that I’m done playing Devil’s Advocate, let me review at a high level the basics of how Homeobox genes work. Homeobox genes determine which genes are expressed and which are not during genetic development. They basically give instructions to build certain components in specific coordinates. Thus, mutations in Homeobox genes can be cause large scale changes. They are also very similar throughout all life. The Pax-6 regulatory group–which is about 130 amino acids long–shares a 94 % similarity between humans and insects. Zebra fish and humans are even closer at 97 percent.

To give a more common example, Homeobox genes resemble a construction site foreman who orders groups of workers to build various building structures in a particular location. However, it’s important to note that this particular foreman doesn’t know how to build walls or windows himself. He just knows how to give orders and couldn’t wield a hammer to save his life. Despite this, the different workers know exactly how to construct the particulars of the items that they are instructed to build. Some workers know how to build concrete walls and others brick walls, windows, archways, etc. In laymen’s terms, without these specialty workers, our foreman is out of a job.

Similiarly, Homeobox regulatory genes work at a high level and don’t get too involved in the details of what they regulate. Even so, Homeobox genes are still extraordinary powerful which is Schwartz relies on them for Sudden Origins. They can “decide” what goes where and how many components get built. But what Homeobox genes cannot is what is truly revelant to this discussion. Homeobox genes do not create *new* genetic information in the traditional sense. Mutations in these regulatory gene sets can cause biological components to not be built (an animal losing their hind legs). They can result in more than the correct number of elements being built (as in the case of Hox-4.6 in chickens which create an extra “thumb”). They can even result in the construction of components in the wrong places. Ultimately, manipulations to these genes can only result in the rearrangement of elements already present in the biological development plan for a given organism.

Homeobox genes reveal complexity, structure and a hierarchical approach to biological development. All of which speak of designer re-use. Any engineer worth his degree realizes the importance and benefit of well organized subsystems. Indeed, these genes represent a level of biological abstraction that Darwinism did not predict. Not to mention, how do you gradually evolve a regulatory gene in the first place? What value does a regulatory gene serve without the genes that know how to “build” components? And if the genes that “build” components existed prior to the appearance of regulatory genes then what selective short term advantage by itself would the ability to regulate other genes have?

A couple weeks back a critic of ID posed the case of humans born with “tails”-a couple extra vertebrae in the spine. I wouldn’t be surprised if these incidents could be traced back to mutations in homeobox genes. But instances of finite macro-level changes do little to advance their case against ID.

Comments
You're right, sorry Patrick. My reminder, based upon what I thought was transpiring in the comments, was completely redundant. Too much surfing too fast - I forgot that the initial post had already addressed the distinction.Charlie
February 20, 2006
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“The current administrators of this blog don’t allow criticism of ID”

I'm an administrator here and yet here I am offering a possible new argument against IC. Admittedly it's on the same level of Myer's argument: only a logical argument. Darwinists can feel free to run with it and see if it works in reality.

There are three Indirect Pathways raised as possibilites against IC: "parallel direct evolution (coevolution of components), elimination of functional redundancy (“scaffolding,” the loss of once necessary but now unnecessary components) and adoption from a different function (“cooption,” functional shift of components)." All of those are Indirect Pathways. "a fourth route, serial direct evolution (change along a single axis), could not produce multiple-components-required systems." Note the sections in quotes which I yanked from the PT people.

If Myer's example of a Direct Pathway is useful in real life solutions then he should apply it to the bacterial flagellum and produce a detailed account of this Direct Pathway.

Charlie: "In principle, the immensely improbable evolution via an indirect Darwinian pathway is not ruled out solely by existence of irreducible complexity."

Yes, we realize that. We'd also like to see posited Indirect Pathways backed up by experimental evidence.

Patrick
February 20, 2006
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Scott,
I have in fact read Dembski's manuscript on IC and it is one reason I am troubled by the concept. First, he gives a definition on page 2 "A functional system is IC if it contains a multipart subsystem that cannot be simplified without destriying the system's basic function". No mention of molecular machines in the definition of IC. Meyer's example seems to be IC according to this definition.

On page 7, he says "The problem is that for an IC system, its basic function is attained only when all components from the irreducible core are in place simultaneously". The final stage from Myer's example seems to satisfy this.

On page 15, "The logical point is that IC renders biological structures provably inaccessible to Darwinian pathways". No mention of molecular machines - D. claims the concept applies to ALL biological structures. And he claims it rules out "pathways" which is a general concept. Myers seems to show a schematically how a particular IC structure (a chemical reaction - and all biology is built on chemical reactions) could have evolved.

I am not really clear on the precise definition of "direct" and "indirect" pathways. Myers claims his example is a "direct" pathway, but maybe Dembski would term it indirect. If it is indirect, what would Dembski say? On page 17, Dembski concedes that indirect pathways are possible but says " Indirect Darwinian pathways, by contast, are so open ended that there is no way to test them scientifically unless they are carefully specified ...".

So as far as I can tell, Dembski says that IC rules out evolution along "direct pathways" (which I take to mean that an IC structure cannot be found by following a greedy optimization algorithm) but that they could evolve via Darwinian mechanisms along indirect pathways. I personally find nothing objectionable to any of this but I don't see how it helps ID. In the end, he just seems to be saying "I will only believe X evolved if you can show me the steps in sufficient detail - and in the mean time, I prefer to believe it was designed by ... something". So what? It still just seems to come down to "i don't believe it!".

And on the other hand, suppose someone in the future came up with a blow-by-blow account of the bacterial flagellum (which Dembski allows as a logical possibility). What would ID supporters do? My guess is just pick something else out and make the same claims. That doesn't seem very "scientific" to me.

My emphasis above. What do ID critics do? They create strawmen like telling us what we would do in the future then telling us that their account of our future actions isn't very scientific. As long as we're making crap up let's suppose someone in the future finds God signed his work by leaving a gene in the human genome that constructs a protein that folds into the Hebrew letters "YHWH". What would chance worshipping neodarwinists do then? My guess is they'd start believing in aliens from outer space that visited the earth and planted the gene there to fool us into thinking that God exists. LOL. I gave you a chance to be critical and when you get backed into a corner you resort to silly strawman arguments. -ds

insouciant
February 20, 2006
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Defenders of ID: Don't forget that IC precludes evolution via natural selection via direct pathways. In principle, the immensely improbable evolution via an indirect Darwinian pathway is not ruled out solely by existence of irreducible complexity.Charlie
February 20, 2006
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Can't something that is IC evolve, in part, by drift as well ? Not just natural selection ?

Of course. That's what Myers is saying. By introducing a redundant component it removes the selection pressure so random changes can occur in one of the redundant components without losing the original functionality. Unfortunately his abstract example breaks down because you can't accidently introduce redundant components just any old place in functional machinery. If it wasn't designed from the gitgo to accept redundant parts then it breaks if you simply try adding a extra identical part. Take for example a drive train in a car. You can't get redundancy in the power train simply by installing a second engine identical to the first. There's no room for a second engine. There's no provision in the rest of the power train to have two engines operating simultaneously. Similarly you can't just add a second transmission, a second driveshaft, a second set of wheels, etc. Machines don't work that way. Myers example is abstract hogwash that doesn't apply to real world situations of irreducibly complex machines. Myers doesn't understand how machines are designed. I do. That's my job and I'm quite good at it. -ds senatorchunk
February 20, 2006
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"If truly irreducibly complex it means it couldn’t evolve by natural selection."

But isn't that exactly the point of Myer's example: he presents something which satisfies the definition of IC and then shows that the fact it is IC would not be an obstacle to it's having evolved. No, it is not a real example, but in logical argument, any counter example of a catagorical statement will do. He seems to prove that IC is not "unevolvable".

I showed his example doesn't work in mechanical devices. Substitue drive gear, chain, and sprocket for A, B, and C in his example and it falls apart because in the real world of machinery you can't just throw a redundant chain into the machine so you can play with the design of the original chain without breaking the machine. The ability to have redundant parts has to be designed into the machine. Myers evidently knows nothing of machines or design thereof. Either that or he's lying, delusional, insane, or wicked but I'd rather not consider wicked. He's off in some theoretical lala land imagining things that can't possibly be realized in working machinery. -ds insouciant
February 20, 2006
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insouciant,

It means that a molecular machine with multiple interlocking components which demonstrate a specified purpose, and whose core will not function unless said components are in place simultaneously, could not have been built by an unguided, purposeless and gradualistic mechanism.

More:
http://www.designinference.com/documents/2004.01.Irred_Compl_Revisited.pdf

Scott
February 20, 2006
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Joseph,
"The debate is about the mechanism" - of course, that is what evolutionary biologists spend their days talking about as well. But i am confused by your terminology. Does "directed either by the organism" mean that it purposefully changes itself somehow? And when you say "the designed genetic algorithm" is that just mean that the thing was "designed"? I'm confused because "genetic algorithms" are something from computer science.

DNA is (at a minimum) a digital program code controlling a robotic protein assembler. There are mobile elements hopping around like grease in a hot skillet. Epigenetic information abounds. There's no physical reason why cells can't have computational capabilities. All the required hardware is there and they have a digital programming language. Vast computational ability is available to nanoscale hardware. Simple mechanical things like levers composed of a small number of atoms can be memory devices able to change state in femtoseconds. Quantum computing devices are even more amazing in their ability to pack computational power into a small space. So far nature appears to have anticipated just about everything human engineers have done so I see no reason to deny her nanoscale computers in living cells. Genetic algorithm takes on a whole new meaning in that context.-ds insouciant
February 20, 2006
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I narrowed it down a bit, eh Joseph? ;)

Scott
February 20, 2006
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-ds said: "Myers rebuttal was simplistic, idiotic hogwash..."

Very well, let me ask a question: do you all believe that "irreducibly complex" is equivalent to "unevolvable"? Do you believe it means "could have evolved, but I don't see how" or ... what? What exactly is the significance of IC ?

If truly irreducibly complex it means it couldn't evolve by natural selection. This was the challenge given by St. Charles hisself back when his theory was actually scientific, before he was sainted, and before his theory of natural selection was transformed into chance worshipping dogma. If something is claimed to have "evolved" the onus of showing how is on the claimer. Science is about demonstration. "Darwin of the gaps" is basically what's being claimed by the chance worshippers - anything they can't explain (a gap) is conveniently filled in with an all powerful mechanism random mutation & natural selection. "Darwin of the gaps" is equivalent to "God of the gaps". The only difference is in which particular deity gets the credit by default. -ds

insouciant
February 20, 2006
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To insouciant, IC does NOT mean "it couldn't have evolved". The debate is about the mechanism. IOW was the mechanism some blind, purposeless mechanism? Or was it something directed either by the organism (population) or the designed genetic algorithm that provided a solution to the problem- the "problem" being how to achieve motility because the food ain't coming here anymore. Here is a challenge for evolutionary biologists- demonstrate what makes an organism what it is. To Scott, What happens when the ONLY arguments "against" ID are of the "vitrolic claptrap" type? ;)Joseph
February 20, 2006
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"The current administrators of this blog don’t allow crititcism of ID"

Balderdash. We don't tolerate tired vitriolic claptrap. Present a good argument against a tenet of ID and we'll happily engage you.

https://uncommondescent.com/index.php/comment-policy/put-a-sock-in-it/ Scott
February 20, 2006
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-ds,
Are you deliberately misconstruing Myers? He is not claiming to give a detailed history of anything: only illustrating an abstract point that "irreducible complexity" is not logically equivalent to "unevolvable". Granted, the argument is a bit abstract but so is much of Dembski's stuff. Once that point is made, then the argument "it is IC and therefore could not have evolved" - a catagorical statement - becomes "its IC and i cann't see how it evolved", which is a much softer statement and maybe says more about the lack of imagination or expertise of the questioner than it does about evolutionary theory. Yes, it poses a challenge for evolutionary scientists but one that they are used to.

If I was miscontruing Myers you're free to show how I did it. Myers rebuttal was simplistic, idiotic hogwash that works in the abstract but falls apart applied to the design of actual machines like the flagellum. -ds insouciant
February 20, 2006
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crandaddy: "With all due respect to Dr. Behe, I’m more impressed with CSI as an indicator of intelligent design than IC." Umm IC is a specialized form of CSI/ SC: page 289 of "No Free Lunch": "I want therefore in this section to show how irreducible complexity is a special case of specified complexity, and in particular I want to sketch how one calculates the relevant probabilities needed to eliminate chance and infer design for such sysytems." Then Sir Wm. launches into the DCO computation (discrete combinatorial object) which require parts to be originated, those parts to be localized and those parts to be properly configured. All of which also require information. Pdco= Porig x Plocal x Pconfig Also what PZ should know- just about anything "works" on paper. However it is the real world that science is concerned with.Joseph
February 20, 2006
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"One thing that has always irked me is that rarely on this site do we find any critics of ID attempting to challenge the tools/methods of ID directly."

The current administrators of this blog don't allow crititcism of ID, it's grounds for immediate banning. Back off on the overzealous editing of comments and you'd see plenty of rational, well-informed criticism.

Ok son. Show us what you got. -ds SailorMon
February 20, 2006
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It is a capital mistake to theorise before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, Instead of theories to suit facts. -- Sherlock Holmes, "A Scandal in Bohemia"vpr
February 20, 2006
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With all due respect to Dr. Behe, I'm more impressed with CSI as an indicator of intelligent design than IC.crandaddy
February 20, 2006
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First of all, it's bad form to respond by editing your response into other people's posts. I speak from experience: I am a staff member at a very active message board.

On to the main point, you didn't even bother to respond to the part of the post that I said to read. Patrick's original post says:

"Behe has claimed there isn’t an evolutionary mechanism that can hope to overcome the IC information barrier via Direct Pathways."

PZ Myers showed how it can happen. How would you go about disproving that such a mechanism works as he says it does?

First of all this is great form. It reduces clutter. But I'll offer a fair compromise nonetheless. When we're on YOUR message board we can do it YOUR way. Myer's idiotically simple flow charts aren't applicable to machines. Take a simple power transmission device consisting of two gears and a chain. Gear1----Chain----Gear2. It's irreducible. According to Myers logic we can modify it into a more complex irreducible system by first adding a redundant chain so that we can break the first chain without disabling the device. Unfortunately gears don't work that way. They'll only accomodate one chain at a time. The flagellar motor is the same way. You can't just add a redundant drive shaft so you can monkey around with the original without breaking it. There is no accomodation for adding a redundant drive shaft. Myers example fails when applied to machines. But this is hardly surprising since he earlier demonstrates he doesn't know what a machine is. -ds Sparrowhawk
February 19, 2006
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Since you decided to focus on the "direct pathway" portion, so will I. And I really only need one reference here.

http://pharyngula.org/index/weblog/comments/hang_your_head_in_shame_grauniad/

Just ignore the rest of the post and scroll down to the part with the diagrams. Read all of that. Let's discuss it.

Myers comes out the gate with a false analogy comparing the complexity in a cell with a potato chip that resembles the face of Jesus. Is that supposed to impress anyone? All it tells me is Myers is an anti-religious ass with a lame argument.

Then the very next thing he does is says that cellular structures only look like machines implying they aren't actually machines. This only demonstrates that Myers doesn't know the definition of a machine. There are real machines in living cells. Really really complex machines.

I haven't a clue what his point is with anything further. He thinks he's demonstrated with a few idiotically simple flow charts how complex machinery self-organizes? Uh no. It's going to take a bit more than that. Myers here only continues to demonstrate either his ignorance (he doesn't even know what a machine is), his stupidity (he equates cellular machinery with a potato chip), his dishonesty (he probably does know that his analogy was false and the definition of a machine), or his wickedness but I'd rather not consider that. -ds

Sparrowhawk
February 19, 2006
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