Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Ted Davis — “The Theistic Evolutionists’ Theistic Evolutionist” — Rising above the fray

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Ted Davis, a historian of science at Messiah College, used to be part of a list I moderate. He has some good insights into the history of science (especially into the work of Robert Boyle), but he consistently misses the mark concerning ID. Here is a nice synopsis of his view of ID (also with a jab at UD). It is written to Pim van Meurs, as a mentor would write to his disciple. The short of his view is that ID is a reaction to the scientific materialism of Richard Dawkins, which it tries to displace by setting up a new science, which is really just a disguised form of religion. His counsel is to rise above the fray and realize that both are ideologically motivated. Ideological motivation is all fine and well, but has ID identified fundamental conceptual flaws and evidential lacunae in the conventional materialistic understanding of biological origins and is its appeal to intelligence conceptually sound and empirically supported? I have yet to see Ted address that question.

From: Ted Davis
Date: Mon Apr 02 2007 – 08:56:27 EDT

For Pim and others,

I can only echo David’s comments about Dawkins, who came across in the interview as a much kinder, gentler person than he does in many of his books and articles. Dawkins simply hates religion, and does think that religious people are either stupid or wicked, if not both. And he has company in this.

I recommend to all, the chapter on the “Council of Despair,” in Karl Giberson & Donald Yerxa, “SPecies of Origins.” It’s a splendid overview of scientific atheism in the past couple of decades. For anyone who doubts that this view really exists and is influential, take a look at “Wired” magazine for Nov 2006, with its cover story on “The New Atheism: No Heaven. No Hell. Just Science.”

Also, Pim, I esp recommend that you step away a bit from PT (which is not much more objective than Dembski’s blog, when it comes right down to it) and realize something very, very important about ID. Philip Johnson was responding to two specific influences, when he wrote “Darwin on Trial.” One, to be sure, was Denton’s book, “Evolution: A Theory in Crisis,” but the other one was Dawkins’ “The Blind Watchmaker.” If there were no Dawkins and company, I have little doubt, there would be no Johnson and company as a direct, highly vocal response.

This is something about which the scientific establishment is still somewhat ambivalent, IMO. Some do see what Dawkins is doing in the name of science to be a completely inappropriate extrapolation of science that goes well beyond the sphere and authority of science. But others do not–people like Steven Weinberg, the late Isaac Asimov, the late Carl Sagan, Sam Harris, or Steven Pinker. These are highly influential people, Pim, and it is not surprising to me if they provoke a response in the form of ID. What ID is going goes well beyond science, of course–and they admit this, despite their continued insistence that ID is nevertheless scientific. But Dawkins and company believe in the religion of science (as Dawkins himself as called it), so why not have a science of religion (ID) in response to it? Dawkins’ work goes so far beyond merely debunking ID–which itself is just a big way of debunking his own work. He wants to demonstrate the intellectual bankruptcy of all traditional religions, using science as his club. The sooner this is understood, and the sooner its link with ID is recognized, the sooner the conversation about science education can move
forward.

My best,
Ted

SOURCE: American Scientific Affiliation discussion group.

Comments
Scordova said: It is apparent you have misstated and misunderstood my position. The rest of your response criticizes things I didn’t say nor believe. dopderbeck: I don’t think so.
Really? Given you suggested I was Arminian when I'm not [unless you can figure a way to say a Calvinist like myself is also an Arminian], that I'm Roman Catholic, when I'm not [unless you can figure a way to say a PCA member is a Roman Catholic also], and still insist you characterize my position accurately, I see no reason for further dialogue. It's pointless to dialogue with someone who feels free to project and attribute statements and ideas and even denominational affiliations to me which I do not maintain. You had the opportunity to simply say, "I misunderstood what you were saying" but rather you seem bent on attributing ideas to me which I do not maintain. Such conduct does not project a willingness for fair and open dialogue.
it seems to me that your position on these theological questions, repsectfully, is confused and not thought out.
Given you attribute thelogical ideas to me whcih I don't maintain, it's understandable you think I'm confused. You should understand my theologcial position before you begin criticizing it.scordova
April 9, 2007
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But in any event, fat jokes about Al Gore, What fat jokes about Gore?tribune7
April 8, 2007
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Actually I didn't watch it. I am not really a fan of Al Gore. However, I think you're wrong about the science of global warming, though you might be right about being cautious concerning policy -- but that's a whole nother kettle of fish. And yeah, the President getting hummers in the oval office is a really bad thing. But in any event, fat jokes about Al Gore, videos with fart noises and whatnot, do not to me and I think to many thoughtful people bespeak careful, credible deliberation. It really hurts your cause -- too bad if you can't see that.dopderbeck
April 8, 2007
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and saw this post: Angry Old Fat Man: The Algorecalypse . . . And you watched it :-) I suspect if Niels Bohr and Einstein had video cameras we might have seen a different side to them. I too think it is a shame standards have dropped but I don't think AOFM (much less more innocent things like South Park) are anywhere near as responsible as 8 years of Bill Clinton and a series of remarkably stupid Supreme Court decisions in the early 60s. And think about this - a few months back a group of doctors were attacked for expressing support for ID because they were not "biologists." Now, we have Gore, a divinity school drop out, about to persuade the world horrifically inconvenice itself while transferring billions of dollars to bad scientists and their enablers in the name of bad science. Anyway, I sincerely commend you in your attempt to maintain standards.tribune7
April 7, 2007
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Tribune said: There is a lot more good than bad on this blog. You’re posting on it right? More to the point you’re reading it. I was going to pass this over, but then I went looking for the "Friday Musings" post someone mentioned, and saw this post: Angry Old Fat Man: The Algorecalypse, and I remembered again why I don't visit this site on a regular basis. How is this kind of schlock defensible? How does it help anything? Why would a smart person who publicly identifies as a Christian intellectual and teaches as a Christian seminary want to be party to such nonsense. Credibility down the drain. Sigh.dopderbeck
April 7, 2007
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Tribune: Rather than an expensive to produce journal, a better option would be for ASA to invite (better, recruit) ID perspectives to its own blog with its own moderation policies. The ASA doesn't really have a blog to speak of (it has one, but it stinks). The journal is where the action is, and ID folks are recruited to write for it and do. As for an ASA online presence, the ASA email list is where the action is. ID folks do post there from time to time, and a few of the regulars are TE-ID hybrids of a sort (I guess in some ways that describes me, though again, I don't claim to represent the ASA). However, (1) unfortuntaely often that activity involves someone who really has no clue about what TE's really do or think stopping in to drop the equivalent of an F-bomb on anyone who dares question the tactics and ideology of political ID (I will not name names but one the occasion or two that I've seen a well-known ID advocate jump into the ASA list (NOT Bill Dembski or Mike Behe) the combination of ignorance and arrogance was simply astonishing); and (2) equally unfortunately, there are some TE's on the ASA list, as well as some other hangers-on who aren't even really ASA folks, who treat just as poorly anyone who disagrees with them (Ted Davis, BTW, is not one of those bomb-throwers). We have been discussing recently on the ASA list our need to be more gracious and open in this regard. Some agree; not all do. Anyway, there's no substitute for a peer reviewed journal produced by a group of people who together are committed to serious scholarship. There's something about a community of scholars that limits excesses.dopderbeck
April 7, 2007
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Wakefield you wrote
SomeTHING must ultimately have come via some processes from NOthing. Else all existed forever, which I think some nontheists may have entertained at one time and many still do, but they are stuck in the same Egg-Bird timebound quandry as the rest of us earthlings.
The view I have is that something has always existed. If anything exists then logically something must have always existed because you cannot get something from nothing. You wrote
The problem is that we can’t compare to other events since the sample size does not exceed exactly ONE event. Recess time back into the distant past and you will come to a point, like it or not, where there does not even exist the great curtain of time to open up for All Avents to happen.
I disagree. Time is amorphous. If something has always existed then time has always existed relative to that something. you wrote
The only other option is for things to have existed forever, which using the same method of recessing back in time you’ll (illogically) NEVER reach any moment on the time graph at which it can be said that you are any closer NOR farther from the present;
I disagree. 1 year ago was closer to the present then 2 years ago and 1 year in the future is closer to now then 2 years in the future.
the very notion of “infinity” of time would have to move in both temporal directions, thus does not allow “closeness” to current events, nor “distance”.
Infinity means no beginning and no end. But that doesn't mean that points within infinity cannot be measured relative to other points. If space is infinite that doesn't change the fact that I live X number of miles from New York City. The same with time. If time begins and ends or if it is infinite that doesn't change the fact that we can measure points in time relative to each other.mentok
April 7, 2007
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Angry blogs in which the interesting stuff gets gummed up with dumb cheap shots and irrelevant hyper-conservative political rants? Dave There is a lot more good than bad on this blog. You're posting on it right? More to the point you're reading it. Dembski's Design Inference site would be far more akin to what you might find in a journal than UD, anyway. Rather than an expensive to produce journal, a better option would be for ASA to invite (better, recruit) ID perspectives to its own blog with its own moderation policies. Link to the papers on Dembski's DI site that you find of interest. Or ask him if you can repost them there.tribune7
April 7, 2007
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dopderbeck you wrote
My understanding of panentheism, though is that God is often thought of not as preexistent, but as emerging out of the universe.
I've never heard panentheism described like that. I know that hindu traditions do not teach that. They teach that God is the primeval substance, with no origin, and that the universe comes into existance through God's desire and will, and that the universe is comprised of God. you wrote
And if you think of “information” as an ontic entity apart from God, you would still have to explain where that entity came from.
Information in the form of what we can perceive in matter or ourselves was/is created by God. You wrote
It seems to just add another layer to your problem with creation ex nihlo. Either way, God and his power to create something out of nothing have to be taken as givens.
God cannot do the impossible, what is impossible is impossible regardless of the ability of anyone. Creating something out of nothing is impossible. God creates matter out of something i.e out of God.mentok
April 7, 2007
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dopderbeck, On another thread there is starting to be a discussion of genetic markers as evidence for common descent. This was not in response to your comments here but came up independently. If you want, you could comment or just observe to see what some here are thinking. The thread is titled Friday Musings — Irrational Hatred of ID and a Scientific Sea Change and the discussion starts at comment 6 on down. There is also some comments about angry blogs.jerry
April 7, 2007
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Tribune -- re: the journal idea -- yes that probably is what would happen. But then again, what's the alternative? Angry blogs in which the interesting stuff gets gummed up with dumb cheap shots and irrelevant hyper-conservative political rants?dopderbeck
April 7, 2007
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Mentok -- thanks for reminding me of Hinduism, I'd forgotten about that. I see what you're saying about something coming from nothing. If what you're saying is that God had to pre-exist the creation, I agree, as that is orthodox Christian doctrine. I like the old analogy of God as the "unmoved mover." My understanding of panentheism, though is that God is often thought of not as preexistent, but as emerging out of the universe. And if you think of "information" as an ontic entity apart from God, you would still have to explain where that entity came from. It seems to just add another layer to your problem with creation ex nihlo. Either way, God and his power to create something out of nothing have to be taken as givens.dopderbeck
April 7, 2007
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dopderbeck you wrote
Mentok: very interesting, my impression was that most panentheists are theistic evolutionists of a sort.
Maybe amongst christians, but in the entire world it is the opposite. I mean the large population of hindus. Most hindus are panentheists. Between 60 to 70% of all hindus claim to believe in some form or tradition of Vaishnavism. Vaishnava traditions are panentheistic (non vaishnava traditions are also mostly panentheistic but they also mostly profess monism as well, which vaishnavism does not) and profess intelligent design in their own fashion. Even though most hindus have probably never heard of intelligent design nevertheless the vaishnava scriptures and teachings are professing that God created all living things through the use of his/her intellect and plan. In fact vaishnava theology professes that there are countless earth type planets with the same life forms and which serve the same purpose as our earth does. It is also taught that many life forms and nature in general on earth type planets have their origin in the heavenly or spiritual kingdom (heavenly planets or vaikuntha) where God lives in human forms with countless humans who have attained to life in heaven. Heaven is also described as being populated with many of the animals and plants we find on earth. The idea taught is that God created most life as we know it for the purpose of eternal enjoyment in heaven, and that earth type planets are temporary pale reflections of the perfect eternal heavenly planets. Vaishnava scriptures go into fairly detailed descriptions on how god created the various life forms, not in a modern scientific fashion, but in a fairly complex metaphoric description nevertheless.mentok
April 6, 2007
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But why not a similar, broad based journal from an ID perspective? It's not a bad idea although what has to be kept in mind is that an effective hit will draw screams no matter how much niceness surrounds it. What I fear would happen to any such journal, though, is that extra-scientific means would be used to marginalize it and make it basically valueless. Potential contributors and reviewers would face near insurmountable intimidation etc., leaving only those not caring what the establishment thought, which would mean it would almost certainly turn into a polemic. Maybe I'm just being pessimistic.tribune7
April 6, 2007
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As CS Lewis once said, Mentok, the idea of an Egg that came from no Bird is no more rational or irrational than a Bird that existed for all Eternity. Regardless of your beliefs about what the Primal Cause is for the whole ball of wax we call the Big Bang (sometimes called Creationism for Nerds!), we have the same problem. SomeTHING must ultimately have come via some processes from NOthing. Else all existed forever, which I think some nontheists may have entertained at one time and many still do, but they are stuck in the same Egg-Bird timebound quandry as the rest of us earthlings. The problem is that we can't compare to other events since the sample size does not exceed exactly ONE event. Recess time back into the distant past and you will come to a point, like it or not, where there does not even exist the great curtain of time to open up for All Avents to happen. The only other option is for things to have existed forever, which using the same method of recessing back in time you'll (illogically) NEVER reach any moment on the time graph at which it can be said that you are any closer NOR farther from the present; the very notion of "infinity" of time would have to move in both temporal directions, thus does not allow "closeness" to current events, nor "distance". It's like trying to jump one's way back OUT of a bottomless pit. There is no leverage to do so since there is nothing to launch from.Wakefield Tolbert
April 6, 2007
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dopderbeck I have a problem with creation ex nihilo when it is interpreted too literally. For me that is an impossible proposition due to the nature of reality from a philosophical standpoint. Nothing cannot become something because there needs to be a causal ground of being for something to come into existence, at least that is what is considered logical when considering the ontology of physics. My understanding of creation ex nihilo is that nothing existed but God (in God's original essential state) before creation. Ex nihilo for me means God created matter and the universe from a state where there was no matter nor a universe nor anything but God in God's original state of existance. Ex nihilo means that God didn't create the world from pre-existing elements, not that God created the world out of nothing at all. God created the world out something, but that something was not of this world, that something was God's being and God's intelligence and God's will and ability. In that interpretation ex nihilo makes sense to me, otherwise something coming from absolutely nothing seems to me to be a logically flawed interpretation of creation ex nihilo because nothingness lacks on it's terms the pre-requisite existential foundation to give it the ability to become somethingness. As for your point that in orthodox christian theology:
God doesn't use information to arrange and build matter. He simply creates — in the traditional phraseology, He speaks the world into existence.
"Speaking" in the blblical context of creation, in my interpretation, is a simplified explanation for information formation and also a metaphor for utilizing that information to create something. We do the same thing whenever we try to build anything. What is speech that can create logical complex systems (e.g. God spoke the world into existence) but a process of information formulation and transference? For us if we create a machine the process begins with speech in our mind as we try to organize information into a capable plan. Then that speech becomes transfered in some way as some type of information in the process of actually building a machine. The bible in my understanding is giving a complex understanding in a simplified version of what actually happened and happens.mentok
April 6, 2007
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Tribune: You make some good points about Baylor and such, and honestly I don't know all the history of that to comment on it intelligently. But how about this: the ASA has a very nice, peer reviewed journal. It offers a variety of perspectives and isn't polemical. There is no over-the-top political stuff clogging up the works. Some leading ID'ers write for the ASA journal sometimes. But why not a similar, broad based journal from an ID perspective? Why do the primary outlets right now seem to be polemical blogs and popular trade press books? Mentok: very interesting, my impression was that most panentheists are theistic evolutionists of a sort. You said this: According to christian theology (and my own beliefs) information precedes matter i.e God has information which he uses to arrange and build matter. I can see how God might be considered a form or repository of "information" from a panentheistic perspective, but I'm not really sure this is an accurate statement of orthodox Christian theology. (I don't understand panentheism to be orthodox Christian theology, but I don't intend that statement to be taken as a slight -- just as a statement of what Christian historical theology represents). In orthodox Christian theology, God doesn't "use information" to arrange and build matter. He simply creates -- in the traditional phraseology, He speaks the world into existence. There is nothing prior to God's act of creation -- it is "ex nihlo," out of nothing. Of course, one challenge for TE or for any kind of progressive creationism is how to contextualize creation over a long period of time with creation ex nihlo. But there is good precedent, I think, for understanding creation ex nihlo as the initial act of creation in which God endows the universe with the its fundamental properties, such as basic physical laws. Even this, though, I think, isn't the impartation of "information" as some kind of separate ontic entity that God injects into the universe. Rather, I'd suggest it involves the creation of matter and physical laws, including quantum mechanics, in such a way that "information" -- whether patterns of regularity such as genetic codes or less predictable properties such as minds -- can emerge. And, an adjunct to God's initial creative activity is is continual sustaining activity in creation. The notion of God providentially sustaining creation as it develops according to His will is congenial, I think, to an orthodox understanding of God's sovereignty -- which is one place I would depart from panentheism. Now, I suppose ID can offer an answer that might seem more satisfying: God created "information" as a separate ontic entity and injected it, either at the start or periodically throughout natural history, into the rest of creation. But I personally think this causes more philosophical and theological problems than it solves.dopderbeck
April 6, 2007
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dopderbeck you wrote
The information theory being employed entails an ontology of information that accords information an ontological status apart from matter. Setting aside the tendentious (and I think wrong) nature of the claim that information is an ontic entity apart from matter, I think there’s a very real danger here of exalting this ontology of information into another form of revelation.
If we think about this in purely theological terms then I don't see why you have a problem with this. According to christian theology (and my own beliefs) information precedes matter i.e God has information which he uses to arrange and build matter. Therefore in this theological conception of information it is indeed originally ontologically apart from matter and then built into matter. An example is information written on your hard disc. First you have two separate ontological systems which then become infused with each other. Even though they become one system, they arise and ultimately maintain inherently separate ontological natures. Information is different from that which is being informed or doing the informing, information is knowledge while the informed or the informer are repositories of information or knowledge. You have written something about panentheism as being in conflict with this concept, I would disagree. I am a panentheist, I see all of reality as an expression of God's being. Yet at the same time I see different ontological categories being expressed within the oneness of everything. I see oneness and simultaneous differentiation. An example of this concept would be the ontological nature of the human soul or consciousness in relation to the ontological nature of God. As a panentheist I see the human soul as being a part of God but not being the same as God. I see a categorical difference between human consciousness or soul from God. Even though we are one in substance we are different in size and nature e.g God exists everywhere whereas I do not, God is conscious of everything whereas I am not, God exists in more dimensions then I do, etc. So even though I see myself as ontologically one with God because everything is manifested within and comprised of God, at the same time I see myself in a different ontological category of existence from God. So for a panentheist it is not a problem to see information and matter as seperate ontological categories. Information is what makes matter...matter. From my understanding matter comes into existence due to God building or creating matter through the use of information onto a non material or subquantum substance i.e God's original self same consciousness/soul substance or energy. In that sense I see matter as alive as you have pointed out, but it is in a transformed state, a state which has gone from pure original essence of God into a a different ontological category containing specified complexity and specified information in order to function within specific parameters and do the job it is designed for. You also wrote
In a way, it seems to me at times like the efforts to find a “Bible code” in the grammatical syntax of the Hebrew Bible — a kind of gnostic mathematical proof of God’s existence. I am troubled by what this does to the traditional, Biblical categories of illumination and revelation.
Traditions become traditions through God's arrangement and they can also change through God's arrangements. God is not a static entity, God is very much an active agent in the here and now. Revelations or the processes or nature of those revelations should not be thought of as being subject to human constraints or control, they are transcendental and operate under their own inner logic and purpose. In other words God is a free agent and is not bound to any tradition nor to any expectation or personal belief. If God wants to reveal himself in whatever fashion of his choosing, then it will be done regardless of a lack of a precedent or a lack of conforming to traditional understandings.mentok
April 6, 2007
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In some circles, it seems to me, ID has become a sort of apologetic gospel, such that questioning ID is akin to questioning the faith itself. That is the sort of thing that concerns me most. I don't think anyone would find it unacceptable to question or challenge any specific claim made by any of the leading lights of ID. There was a long thread here a few weeks back hacking away at CSI. The problem comes when ID is distorted (i.e. called YEC) or when the entire concept is attacked especially when the attack is based on distortions or gotchas on small points.tribune7
April 6, 2007
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One way would have been to sift the valid criticisms from the invalid, and to try not respond in kind but with continued strong scholarship. Such as Dr. Stephen C. Meyer submitting a paper to the Proceedings of the Biological Society of Washington? Perhaps Dr. Dembski could have started a research center dedicated to the study of ID while he was at Baylor.tribune7
April 6, 2007
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Tribune said: When Dembski and Behe wrote their first books was there any meaness in them? No, but they sure go hit with a pile of rocks. This is an excellent point. Dembski and Behe's books, I thought when they first came out and I still think, were outstanding -- scholarly, erudite, and properly moderated in tone. And, you are right, they got slammed with inappropriate viciousness by the establishment. At that point it seems that things could have gone in various ways. One way would have been to sift the valid criticisms from the invalid, and to try not respond in kind but with continued strong scholarship. Another way was to politicize the "movement" and to make it a lynchpin of the culture wars. I'm afraid that, from my perspective and I think from the perspective of some of the TE's in the ASA (though I don't presume to speak on their behalf), the latter is increasingly what has happened. The result, it seems to me, is that within some ID and Christian circles, questioning ID is often met with the same vitriol as is questioning capital-D Darwinisim on Panda's Thumb. In some circles, it seems to me, ID has become a sort of apologetic gospel, such that questioning ID is akin to questioning the faith itself. That is the sort of thing that concerns me most.dopderbeck
April 6, 2007
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Joseph: I'm sorry, but you're just not listening to the points I'm making. On the one hand, you suggest courts should abandon the use of "circumstantial" evidence because it's invalid, and should move towards a system in which only "scientific" evidence is valid; on the other, you purport to understand how the Daubert case relates expert scientific testimony to the independent fact-finding functions of the judge and jury. It seems to me that you need to do a bit more reading on epistemology, the nature of scientific evidence, and in connection with the judicial process, the independent role of the judge and jury. The Daubert case itself is a good place to start.dopderbeck
April 6, 2007
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Scordova said: It is apparent you have misstated and misunderstood my position. The rest of your response criticizes things I didn’t say nor believe. I don't think so. I was summarizing various approaches, and demonstrating how they are all related. I didn't presume your approach was any of those I summarized in particular -- which doesn't matter in any event, because they all are similar. God used transcendant truths to confirm His Word. He confirmed the word through signs and wonders. In light of that, the notion of the Holy Spirit’s witness does not seem limited to some inner inkling given that physical events like miracles testify of God’s word… From this, it seems to me that I did understand your position: it seems to me that your position on these theological questions, repsectfully, is confused and not thought out. In this response, you are confusing the witness of the Holy Spirit with the witness of revelation. The Holy Spirit's witness is an inner witness of illumination. Revelation is an external witness, which includes God's ultimate self-revelation in Christ, the revelation of the written scriptures, revelation by miraculous signs and wonders, and general revelation. Natural theology relates to general revelation. General revelation is a particular type of revelation that, according to Romans 1, never lead to salvation. Rather, general revelation only tells us generally that there is a God, who is powerful, beautiful, creative, orderly, caring, etc., and also (I would suggest) that there is a moral law woven into the fabric of creation. We inevitably reject the message of general revelation without illumination and special revelation. In earlier posts, you seemed to be suggesting that ID is a way of exploring general revelation. I was trying to suggest that this is a confusion of categories, because general revelation concerns nature as it ordinarily operates. General revelation does not concern miraculous signs and wonders. General revelation can be explored through the exercise of human reason even apart from special revelation precisely because general revelation operates according to regular, orderly patterns and laws. We can see the beauty, order, and yes, in a general sense, "design" within the ordinary operation of nature. I consider this a "weak" or "traditional" form of ID, which I think is quite valid. Your continued reference to miracles, however, seems to confuse these categories. The special revelation of miracles / signs and wonders is not a kind of truth discernable by science. By definition, "miracles" are, as you say, "signs and wonders" that happen outside the ordinary operation of nature. Moreover, by definition, "miracles" are rare and are offered for specific purposes within redemption history. They do not reflect order and regularity; rather, they disrupt and transcend order and regularity in ways that only God can accomplish. This is another important aspect of my theological problem with the strong ID program -- it seems to be an effort to use science to prove the miraculous. In some iterations, it seems to be a very specific effort to explain miracles of special creation through mathematical information theory -- miracles as Shannon Information. The information theory being employed entails an ontology of information that accords information an ontological status apart from matter. Setting aside the tendentious (and I think wrong) nature of the claim that information is an ontic entity apart from matter, I think there's a very real danger here of exalting this ontology of information into another form of revelation. In a way, it seems to me at times like the efforts to find a "Bible code" in the grammatical syntax of the Hebrew Bible -- a kind of gnostic mathematical proof of God's existence. I am troubled by what this does to the traditional, Biblical categories of illumination and revelation.dopderbeck
April 6, 2007
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dopderbeck: We don’t agree on the public relations significance of the Dover case, I go with reality on that one. the nature of valid inductive reasoning, ID is based on valid inductive reasoning. the relationship between observational data and theories, All observational data points to stasis. That NS conserves and sexual reproduction puts an end to Common Descent- please read wobbling stability or the use of scientific evidence in court cases (see the Daubert case and its progeny on that). Now you're just confused. I know there is a difference between circumstantial evidence and scientific evidence.Joseph
April 6, 2007
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True. But it means telling the truth “in love” (Eph. 4:15). I’m afraid we sometimes give more of what we take as “truth” and less of what should come from “love.” Dave, that's fine. You look at what we write, say and do and you are going to find mistakes but that's only because we have written, said and did. When Dembski and Behe wrote their first books was there any meaness in them? No, but they sure go hit with a pile of rocks. So we are going to face up to our opponents and not back down. We are going to occasionally say things that shouldn't be said. When we do and you want to correct us, do it with the same consideration you would give someone on the other side.tribune7
April 5, 2007
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Dopderbeck wrote: Perhaps you are a Catholic and won’t agree with some aspects of Reformed soteriology. That’s ok
I am member of the PCA and profess 95% of the Westminster Confession, the only portion I am very undecided about is the issue of the Sabbath. I was raised a Roman Catholic, but left that denomination when I joined the PCA many years ago. You are mistaken.
Or, perhaps you take an Arminian position. There as well, I think the pietist strains of Arminianism are in many ways consistent with classical Christian epistemology. The emphasis there is often on an sort of mystical experience of conversion that transcends rational categories.
You are mistake. I'm probably regarded as a Supralasarian Calvinist, so I'm defintely not Arminian. It is apparent you have misstated and misunderstood my position. The rest of your response criticizes things I didn't say nor believe. I argue there are transcendant truths independent of Christian world view, (i.e. gravity.). I never said that unregenerate minds perceiving such trancendendant truths would be sufficient for salvation. However, there are several times when the notion of "saw and believed" occurs. The force of a miraculous event is the very fact that it is a trancendant truth. If one insists that one needs a Christian world view to recognize a miracle has taken place, then that denigrates the meaning of miracle. God used transcendant truths to confirm His Word. He confirmed the word through signs and wonders. In light of that, the notion of the Holy Spirit's witness does not seem limited to some inner inkling given that physical events like miracles testify of God's word... I do thank you however for offering your thoughts to our readers.scordova
April 5, 2007
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Apollos said: I gather from your (very friendly and eloquent) posts that you see this as a political and philosophical tug-o-war with the “fundies” over a religious movement. IMHO, this is really at the core of the differences of opinion, minus TE and ID’s differences over methodological naturalism and neo-Darwinian mechanisms for biological origins and change. Personally, I think you're exactly right -- that is how I've come to see it personally, and I also think this is a significant part of the difference between TE and ID generally. And I do understand that I've led the discussion here in ways that might seem a bit far afield. But in my mind, this isn't far afield at all -- this is where the heart of the discussion should be. It should be first and foremost a philsophical and theological discussion, IMHO. I think if the discussion happened most deeply at that level, some of the other differences would narrow substantial. Tribune said: Love means telling the truth even when it hurts. True. But it means telling the truth "in love" (Eph. 4:15). I'm afraid we sometimes give more of what we take as "truth" and less of what should come from "love."dopderbeck
April 5, 2007
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First, that wasn’t the previous strategy the previous strategy was to make up our own cosmology that bears no relationship to the real world, starting with geocentrism . . .. Speak for yourself. Copernicus was an IDer. :-) And actually that gets to another point. You can have a culture that assumes happenstance. Or one that assumes design. The powers that control definitions in the science and the arts have adopted the former. Western Civilization, however, has traditionally held the latter. Which one is right? Second, the best and foremost apologetic is humble love. Love means telling the truth even when it hurts. I’d suggest that it started with scholastic theology centuries ago, that it flowered in the Scottish Enlightenment, Ascendent does not mean zenith. :-)tribune7
April 5, 2007
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dopderbeck, At the risk of being presumptuous, it seems that most on this blog would prefer to address the scientific issues regarding ID and evolution. The philosophical discussion over which group is more true to Christian principles (it seems to me) has run its course and, as it happens, is irrelevant to ID. I gather from your (very friendly and eloquent) posts that you see this as a political and philosophical tug-o-war with the "fundies" over a religious movement. IMHO, this is really at the core of the differences of opinion, minus TE and ID's differences over methodological naturalism and neo-Darwinian mechanisms for biological origins and change. I detect an attitude in TE to marginalize ID to a political fomentation, and a knee-jerk response to militant atheism. The tendency to deflect the discussion from scientific criticism of Darwinism -- along with the scientific theories of ID, to a philosophical debate about Christianity, is likely to be perceived as a lack of respect for ID proponents. Is irreducible complexity a serious challenge to NDE? Does it presuppose theism? What are the implications of a lack of observable mechanism for NDE? What constitutes complex specified information? Are design inferences made in science? Does science rely on them? How does the "Privileged Planet" hypothesis challenge the naturalistic suppositions of NDE proponents? These may be juvenile assumptions of what would interest this blog, but I think it's a step in the right direction. Jerry's post was exactly of this order:
Maybe we can get one of the moderators here to start a thread on the applicability of genetic markers as evidence of a naturalistic mechanism for evolution and a gradualistic approach in particular. And if so then maybe you are someone who supports your position could participate.
I think if TE expects good dialog with ID, it needs to engage in a scientific debate; otherwise it looks like you are just running interference for NDE.Apollos
April 5, 2007
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Joseph -- we'll just have to agree to disagree. We don't agree on the public relations significance of the Dover case, the nature of valid inductive reasoning, the relationship between observational data and theories, or the use of scientific evidence in court cases (see the Daubert case and its progeny on that).dopderbeck
April 5, 2007
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