Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Ted Davis — “The Theistic Evolutionists’ Theistic Evolutionist” — Rising above the fray

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Ted Davis, a historian of science at Messiah College, used to be part of a list I moderate. He has some good insights into the history of science (especially into the work of Robert Boyle), but he consistently misses the mark concerning ID. Here is a nice synopsis of his view of ID (also with a jab at UD). It is written to Pim van Meurs, as a mentor would write to his disciple. The short of his view is that ID is a reaction to the scientific materialism of Richard Dawkins, which it tries to displace by setting up a new science, which is really just a disguised form of religion. His counsel is to rise above the fray and realize that both are ideologically motivated. Ideological motivation is all fine and well, but has ID identified fundamental conceptual flaws and evidential lacunae in the conventional materialistic understanding of biological origins and is its appeal to intelligence conceptually sound and empirically supported? I have yet to see Ted address that question.

From: Ted Davis
Date: Mon Apr 02 2007 – 08:56:27 EDT

For Pim and others,

I can only echo David’s comments about Dawkins, who came across in the interview as a much kinder, gentler person than he does in many of his books and articles. Dawkins simply hates religion, and does think that religious people are either stupid or wicked, if not both. And he has company in this.

I recommend to all, the chapter on the “Council of Despair,” in Karl Giberson & Donald Yerxa, “SPecies of Origins.” It’s a splendid overview of scientific atheism in the past couple of decades. For anyone who doubts that this view really exists and is influential, take a look at “Wired” magazine for Nov 2006, with its cover story on “The New Atheism: No Heaven. No Hell. Just Science.”

Also, Pim, I esp recommend that you step away a bit from PT (which is not much more objective than Dembski’s blog, when it comes right down to it) and realize something very, very important about ID. Philip Johnson was responding to two specific influences, when he wrote “Darwin on Trial.” One, to be sure, was Denton’s book, “Evolution: A Theory in Crisis,” but the other one was Dawkins’ “The Blind Watchmaker.” If there were no Dawkins and company, I have little doubt, there would be no Johnson and company as a direct, highly vocal response.

This is something about which the scientific establishment is still somewhat ambivalent, IMO. Some do see what Dawkins is doing in the name of science to be a completely inappropriate extrapolation of science that goes well beyond the sphere and authority of science. But others do not–people like Steven Weinberg, the late Isaac Asimov, the late Carl Sagan, Sam Harris, or Steven Pinker. These are highly influential people, Pim, and it is not surprising to me if they provoke a response in the form of ID. What ID is going goes well beyond science, of course–and they admit this, despite their continued insistence that ID is nevertheless scientific. But Dawkins and company believe in the religion of science (as Dawkins himself as called it), so why not have a science of religion (ID) in response to it? Dawkins’ work goes so far beyond merely debunking ID–which itself is just a big way of debunking his own work. He wants to demonstrate the intellectual bankruptcy of all traditional religions, using science as his club. The sooner this is understood, and the sooner its link with ID is recognized, the sooner the conversation about science education can move
forward.

My best,
Ted

SOURCE: American Scientific Affiliation discussion group.

Comments
dopderbeck: As a practical and public relations matter, the Dover decision crippled the ID movement’s efforts to legitimize ID in public education — Umm there never was any efforts to legitimize ID in public schools. The Dover school board was clueless as to what ID was. For example if I were on that school board the decision would have been different. dopderbeck: and it further entrenched the “ID=creationism” meme in the public mind. I doubt the public even noticed. It was an insignificant district and the ruling was full of easily refutable nonsense. And then once the people who do buy that nonsense will be pissed off they were lied to once reality opens their door. Did you know that there isn’t any data that demonstrates that any mechanism can account for the range of change required. dopderbeck: That would be wrong, depending on what you mean by “data.” If you mean repeatable Baconian experiments, you’re quite right. If you mean the sorts of data that can inform statistical models, you’re quite wrong. If you mean statistical models based on an assumption then that is not objective and definitely not scientific. IOW of course one can lead the data to the assumption one already has. I was talking about something real. I know our legal system depends on circumstantial evidence. And that is really too bad. If science ever takes up the Court's reasoning then it too will be useless.Joseph
April 5, 2007
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Nuts, looks liked I bollixed it up and lost a long post. Only have time for a briefer summary: Phinehas -- I think the point of Romans 1 and indeed throughout Romans is that no one comes to faith through natural theology. We all spit in God's face, as it were. Tribune -- no, not agreeing with them and hoping they don't laugh. Rather, stating our radical presuppositions of the incarnation and the cross, expecting that they will laugh as Jesus promised they would, and yet seeing the Kingdom of God paradoxically grow through our participation in his sufferings on the cross, as Jesus said it would. As to the "fight" being about metaphysical views, yes and no. No, in that the "fight" is not between us and other people who have not yet tasted grace; it is rather a fight between the Kingdom of God and the "principalities and power" that oppose it. Yes, in that the focus should be on metaphysical questions rather than descriptive science -- which is why the enormous amount of time and energy that is spent trying to deprove the descriptive aspects of common descent often seems wasted. Don't forget that a key natural theology passage is Psalm 19. The Church eventually had to be able to decouple the metaphysical assertions about how the "heavens declare the glory of God" and how the sun "rises at one end of the heavens and makes its circuit to the other; nothing is hidden from its heat" (vs. 6) from descriptive heliocentric science. I don't see why the same can't be true regarding the metaphysical assertion of "creation" and the descriptive science of common descent.dopderbeck
April 5, 2007
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Crud. I typed a bunch of long responses and seem to have lost them. Or maybe I'm banished to the moderation pen again. If it doesn't show up I'll have to revisit another time.dopderbeck
April 5, 2007
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Phinehas said: But isn’t the whole point of the Romans 1 passage precisely that (natural) revelation has been graciously provided to all, so that all are without excuse? No, that is only part of the point. The remainder of Romans 1 and indeed the remainder of Romans as a whole makes clear that no one comes to faith through natural revelation. Everyone spits in God's face, as it were. Indeed, Paul goes on to argue that no one comes to faith even through the Law as revealed in the Hebrew scriptures. The revealed Law only demonstrates our rebelliousness and teaches us that we need grace. How then can the scientific search for the truth behind this revelation not be illuminating? Because there is not a prior, "scientific" truth "behind" natural revelation. Natural revelation is simply the beauty and power you see out your window every day and the inner sense of wonder this stirs. Natural revelation is not some kind of mathematics of information theory behind or underneath the visible world, waiting to be discovered. Nor is it some kind of gap encoded like a secret message into the ordinary operation of secondary causes. It is rather all of creation operating as it normally does, without visible intervention by God. Tribune said: As opposed to what? Agree with them and hope they don’t laugh at you? That had the previous strategy. First, that wasn't the previous strategy -- the previous strategy was to make up our own cosmology that bears no relationship to the real world, starting with geocentrism and going right on through to young earth creationism. Second, the best and foremost apologetic is humble love. We are not at war with people who have not yet tasted God's grace; rather, we are at war with "principalities and powers." And that war is not really ours to fight through our own means. We fight it through participating in Christ's sufferings. It is the way of the cross, not the world's way of violence. This does not mean "agree with them and hope they don't laugh." It means "identify the epistemic presuppositions" and expect that they will laugh at our radically contrary presuppositions that begin, in their minds absurdly, with the incarnation and the cross. Through that kind of sacrificial love -- the "kernel of wheat that falls to the ground and dies" (John 12:24) -- the Kindgom of God paradoxically grows. We need less Descartes and more Jesus. That it is ascendant is the only rational way to look at it. From what point did it start We'll just have to agree to disagree here. I'd suggest that it started with scholastic theology centuries ago, that it flowered in the Scottish Enlightenment, and that it has never recovered from the Radical Enlightenment, notwithstanding bursts of activity here and there since the seventeenth century. Do you think ID is Young Earth Creationism? No. But I do think ID has become very unhelpfully entangled with young earth creationism, particularly to the extent ID criticizes non-Baconian historical science. And that [metaphysical question] is what this fight is about isn’t it? It is what the conversation ought to be all about. But if that's what it's all about, there's really no need to spend so much time going on about common descent. Whether common descent is true, or not true, or mostly true, or partly true, or whatever, the metaphysical question is the same. It is really no different, I think, than the decoupling of metaphysical and descriptive questions that the Church had to address after Copernicus and Galileo. Remember, a key Biblical text on natural theology is Psalm 19. In what sense can it be true that the "heavens declare the glory of God" if it is not also descriptively true that the sun "rises at one end of the heavens and makes its circuit to the other; nothing is hidden from its heat" (Ps. 19:6)? The "heavens declare the glory of God" had to be understood, correctly, as a metaphysical statement and not a "scientific" one. The same is true today when it comes to biological science. The fact that science can describe the process human conception, fetal development, and birth, from start to finish, in terms of genetics and physiology, detracts nothing from the statement in Psalm 139:14 that I am "fearfully and wonderfully made" by God, or from the affirmation in verse 13 that God "created my inmost being" and "knit me together in my mother's womb." These are theological and metaphysical statements, not descriptively scientific ones. Likewise with common descent and the belief that I am purposefully created by God, if common descent in one form or another is indeed True as a matter of descriptive science. It is a classic mistake to allow a theological / metaphysical proposition about creation to stand or fall based on a descriptive scientific proposition.dopderbeck
April 5, 2007
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I think the epistemic terms you are accepting are disastrous. As opposed to what? Agree with them and hope they don't laugh at you? That had the previous strategy. This isn’t in itself to say that the claims of ID are wrong, but I don’t think any honest assessment of the state of play can conclude that ID is on the ascendant, much less that it is “spanking” mainstream origins science. That it is ascendant is the only rational way to look at it. From what point did it start? As Gandhi said: First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win. Phases one and two have occurred, and now we are at stage three. Do you think ID is Young Earth Creationism? Despite the attempts by establishment to paint it as such more and more in academy are starting to understand it isn't. Some thought the propaganda of the Soviet Union was working up until the end. Is the huge amount of data about the genetic relationships among all life, and the fossil evidence of morphological change, science? I’d say it is. And I wouldn't disagree, although threatening one with loss of job if one should challenge them is certainly not science. Is the metaphysical view, that life must be purposeless and unplanned, science? I agree with you (as do nearly all TE’s): it is not. And that is what this fight is about isn't it?tribune7
April 5, 2007
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I meant to say "you or someone who supprts your postion"jerry
April 5, 2007
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dopderbeck, We have gotten to something concrete. Maybe we can get one of the moderators here to start a thread on the applicability of genetic markers as evidence of a naturalistic mechanism for evolution and a gradualistic approach in particular. And if so then maybe you are someone who supports your position could participate. Hopefully, it will be congenial if it happens. As a consequence each will learn about the other side.jerry
April 5, 2007
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dopderbeck: "None of this, of course, means that human reasons and evidential arguments are completely worthless. It simply means they always have to follow the illumination provided by revelation and grace." But isn't the whole point of the Romans 1 passage precisely that (natural) revelation has been graciously provided to all, so that all are without excuse? How then can the scientific search for the truth behind this revelation not be illuminating?Phinehas
April 5, 2007
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Jerry said: There is nothing and I mean absolutely nothing to infer a gradual approach to evolution. I have to disagree with you here. The evidence of genetic markers that concur across the genomes of related species such as humans and other primates, IMHO, is very compelling evidence of the gradual transitions between such species. Again, I would agree that this alone doesn't necessarily "prove" gradual evolution on the grandest scale, but I think it is an observation that is very strongly consistent with it, and that can't just be blown off. And, I would note that the "front-loaded" evolution ID folks Tribune referred to don't blow it off -- they for the most part accept it. As one who comes from the very secular Northeast, I can attest to the correctness of your comment. Interesting -- I live in the Northeast as well, and worse yet I work in academia. Joseph said: You are delusional if you think that “Dover” did anything to ID. Joseph, I don't think the evidence supports you on this. Note that I'm referring to the practical and public relations impact of the Dover decision, not to its scientific merits or lack thereof. As a practical and public relations matter, the Dover decision crippled the ID movement's efforts to legitimize ID in public education -- there is no way of getting around that reality -- and it further entrenched the "ID=creationism" meme in the public mind. Even the Discovery Institute folks will candidly acknowledge that the Dover School Board made poor choices and hurt their cause. Did you know that there isn’t any data that demonstrates that any mechanism can account for the range of change required That would be wrong, depending on what you mean by "data." If you mean repeatable Baconian experiments, you're quite right. If you mean the sorts of data that can inform statistical models, you're quite wrong. Did you know that people who were once convicted by circumstantial evidence are being freed from prison once reality comes knocking? I'm not sure what you're referring to here. If you're referring to DNA testing, yes, in a few cases people who have been wrongly convicted have been exhonerated by such testing. But that remains relatively rare. I don't think you understand the extent to which the legal system, in both criminal and civil cases, depends on "circumstantial" evidence and inferences from non-repeatable historical events. Circumstantial evidence is a funny thing in that it is completely controlled by personal biases. "Completely controlled?" Hardly. You seem to have even less faith in human reason than I do. I will agree, however, that personal biases influence all knowledge claims to some degree. Even supposedly "objective" Baconian observations are rarely truly "objective," as Polanyi and others have shown. But for this reason, the potential for personal bias can't in itself defeat a knowledge claim, or else we'll be right back to Descartes' solipsism.dopderbeck
April 5, 2007
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dopderbeck: The secular rationalists and materialists, as a public relations matter, have succesfully boxed ID together with young earth creationism and pseudoscientific quackery. It is only "successful" in the minds of the ignorant. dopderbeck: ID has gained no real foothold in any major university, it was decimated as a legal strategy in Dover, it has produced no literary organs that are widely read, and it has failed to convince even most Christian intellectual who think about these things. You are delusional if you think that "Dover" did anything to ID. And ID has convinced a once avowed atheist- Anthony Flew. dopderbeck: This isn’t in itself to say that the claims of ID are wrong, but I don’t think any honest assessment of the state of play can conclude that ID is on the ascendant, much less that it is “spanking” mainstream origins science. Mainstream origins science is nothing more than sheer dumb luck. Did you know that the alleged "tree of life" has been toppled? Did you know that there isn't any data that demonstrates that any mechanism can account for the range of change required (if all living organisms owe their collective common ancestry to some unknown population(s) of single-celled organisms)? Did you know that people who were once convicted by circumstantial evidence are being freed from prison once reality comes knocking? Circumstantial evidence is a funny thing in that it is completely controlled by personal biases.Joseph
April 5, 2007
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dopderbeck, You said "As to the “spanking,” I think you are deluding yourself if you see it this way. The secular rationalists and materialists, as a public relations matter, have succesfully boxed ID together with young earth creationism and pseudoscientific quackery." I have preached this message here but it essentially goes on deaf ears. There has been a couple threads recently on this very issue and most have either failed to listen or don't accept it. As one who comes from the very secular Northeast, I can attest to the correctness of your comment. The one point you should not make from this observation is that the science that gets discussed here is based on creationism. Yes some threads will come up but they essentially don't go anywhere. So if you stay here long enough you will see honest attempts to get at correct science. There is one going on now about the 2nd law of thermodynamics. Science is all some of us are interested in and would prefer quotes from the bible not be part of any discussion. But a lot of participants on this site are driven by one thing only and that is their religious world view. Others may be driven by that too but prefer to keep it to themselves and discuss science only.jerry
April 5, 2007
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dopderbeck, There is nothing and I mean absolutely nothing to infer a gradual approach to evolution. The only reason that it is accepted is because Darwin postulated it. All the evidence points to abrupt changes. On other threads currently on this site we point to how natural selection would prohibit gradual changes. What kind of science builds a foundation on one man's speculation? When I say circumstantial evidence, I am pointing to evidence to support a naturalistic mechanism but not gradualism. For gradualism there is nothing. So why would anyone accept it. That is the interesting philosophical question at hand. If you think otherwise, then present some evidence for this. Until that the only intellectually consistent viewpoint is to say there may be some naturalistic mechanism but we have no clue what it is.jerry
April 5, 2007
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Jerry: a couple of years ago I leaned more towards the view you hold now. However, the more deeply I studied it, the more I became convinced that the debate over ID versus evolution is not so easily settled either way without plubming the deeper philosophical presuppositions involved. You reference in particular that the evidence for evolution is mostly "circumstantial." Circumstantial evidence, however, is not bad evidence. People are convicted of murder every day based only on inferences drawn from circumstantial evidence. This is, I think, an important philosophical undercurrent in the ID debate. Some key ID advocates seem to desire a return to Baconian Science -- Science based only on repeatable laboratory experiments. I will suggest that for a not insubstantial number of people who hold this view, it is tied to young earth creationism and a general distrust of inferring anything about the unrepeatable past. But, as in murder cases, people make justifiable knowledge claims about unrepeateable events that happened in the past all the time based on inferences from the historical circumstances. Inductive reasoning is a valid way of doing Science. From a Scientific perspective, the question is whether any inferences can be drawn from the historical evidence that are better than those drawn by evolutionary theory. ID perhaps in some ways points up holes in the inferences -- e.g., can natural selection and genetic drift really explain highly specified complex structures -- but that alone doesn't necessarily overthrow an entire theory. The question from a scientific perspective is whether ID supplies any more attractive positive inferences. ID advocates say yes, they do, in the form of the design inference. Personally, I don't discount that argument, but at the same time I don't think it's nearly as well established as ID advocates would like -- at least not without resorting to more foundational beliefs about theology and philosophy.dopderbeck
April 5, 2007
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Tribune said: There are many (non-Christians, anti-Christians etc) who have long felt that way. We are simply witnessing to them on their terms. We are playing on their court and under their rules and giving them a spanking. I think the epistemic terms you are accepting are disastrous. I don't think this is merely a question of being missional. I think it is a sort of syncretism. As to the "spanking," I think you are deluding yourself if you see it this way. The secular rationalists and materialists, as a public relations matter, have succesfully boxed ID together with young earth creationism and pseudoscientific quackery. ID has gained no real foothold in any major university, it was decimated as a legal strategy in Dover, it has produced no literary organs that are widely read, and it has failed to convince even most Christian intellectual who think about these things. This isn't in itself to say that the claims of ID are wrong, but I don't think any honest assessment of the state of play can conclude that ID is on the ascendant, much less that it is "spanking" mainstream origins science. [Darwinism is] certainly not science. Well, again, you have to define a term like "Darwinism." Is the metaphysical view, that life must be purposeless and unplanned, science? I agree with you (as do nearly all TE's): it is not. Is the huge amount of data about the genetic relationships among all life, and the fossil evidence of morphological change, science? I'd say it is. Is the inference drawn from that genetic and fossil evidence, that organisms change and that the tree of life branches as a result of those changes over deep time, science? I'd say again that it is. We no longer live in the time of Francis Bacon; science is inferential as well as observational. Are all the inferences drawn by mainstream science about the tree of life ultimately True? Maybe, maybe not. They seem to be the best explanation (apart from inexplicable miracles) at this point. It wouldn't surprise me one bit, however, if the inferences science is drawing 200 years from now look as different as contemporary Darwinism does from what preceded it. That is a good thing about Science, defined within its proper sphere: its explanations are never those of ultimate Truth; they are always provisional and subordinate to more foundational Truths.dopderbeck
April 5, 2007
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Some comments for Mentok: Mentok said: Well people who think like you can take your advice if they like, but ID is about science, it’s not an endeavor into christian philosophy or theology. I appreciate your view here and appreciate that many ID advocates self-describe in this way, but see my comments above to Scordova. If you understand the dynamic between ID and rationalist American evangelicalism, I don't think the claim that ID is separable from philosophy and theology holds water. I think that you see TE in one way but many other who also believe in some type of theistic evolution may have a very different vision then your own. There is no single TE point of view. That is certainly true. Personally, I'm not comfortable self-identifying as "TE" for this reason. I prefer to say that I'm simply a Christian, and that along with Christians throughout the millennia, I "believe in one God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible" (Nicene Creed). The question of whether God created primarily through secondary causes via evolution, or not, is an interesting one but not in itself a foundational one; yet there seem to be very good theological and epistemological reasons to believe God mostly works in natural history through secondary causes rather than by punctuating natural history with miraculous interventions. (Because of my presuppositions about scripture and the doctrine of original sin, however, I might differ from many TE's in how I understand the creation of humanity).dopderbeck
April 5, 2007
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Following are some reponses to Scordova (Scordova comments in italics). Thank you, BTW, for a reasonable and interesting discussion. The scriptures do not teach that one needs the Christian worldview as a prerequisite to discerning Christendom’s most important truths. If that were the case, then no one would be saved since no one could come to faith. All I can say here is that I think your position contradicts scripture and traditional Christian theology, and leans towards the Pelagian heresy. My view of the ordro salutis is essentially the classically Reformed view: no one can be saved absent the hearing of the Gospel and the illumination and effectual calling of the Holy Spirit. The ordo salutis does not begin with human knowledge or understanding. It begins with God's election and His gracious regeneration of a person's mind and heart. If being a Christian was pre-requisite to believing in Christ, then none one could become a Christian. Obviously, but that is not the Reformed position. The proper way to state it is that no one can become a Christian through the exercise of unregenerate reason. No one can reason his or her way to faith. Reason becomes enlightened to the truth of the Gospel only through the gift of faith and the quickening of the Holy Spirit. Perhaps you are a Catholic and won't agree with some aspects of Reformed soteriology. That's ok -- even within Catholicism, I think the Church has substantially moderated the excesses of rationalistic scholasticism. I think the epistemology of Augustine, Anselm, Aquinas, etc. -- as most recently interpreted by John Paul II in Fides et Ratio -- differs from the Reformed position only in certain matters of emphasis or degree. Take this, for example, from John Paul II's Fides et Ratio:
These considerations prompt a first conclusion: the truth made known to us by Revelation is neither the product nor the consummation of an argument devised by human reason. It appears instead as something gratuitous, which itself stirs thought and seeks acceptance as an expression of love. This revealed truth is set within our history as an anticipation of that ultimate and definitive vision of God which is reserved for those who believe in him and seek him with a sincere heart.
Or, perhaps you take an Arminian position. There as well, I think the pietist strains of Arminianism are in many ways consistent with classical Christian epistemology. The emphasis there is often on an sort of mystical experience of conversion that transcends rational categories. None of this, of course, means that human reasons and evidential arguments are completely worthless. It simply means they always have to follow the illumination provided by revelation and grace. (In this regard, your reference to the miracles of Jesus misses the boat -- Jesus is God's ultimate self-revelation, and his miracles were by definition special, unusual, gracious means by which God revealed his power to unregenerate people. A miracle is not a rationalistic proof, it is a revelation.) However you slice it, the mainstream of Christian thought has never accorded reason priority over faith with respect to conversion or to epistemology generally. I would argue that the rationalist strain of American Evangelicalism is an anomalous phenomona that owes more to Descartes than to Augustine, Jesus or Moses. And the interesting thing is that the rationalist strain of American Evangelicalism -- exemplified by the "Biola School," the Chicago Statement on Inerrancy, and the Evangelical Philosophical Society -- supplies a substantial part of the intellectual and apologetic firepower for the strong ID program. I have become convinced that it's impossible to separate the strong ID program from rationalist Evangelicalism. Despite protests to the contrary, they are hand in glove. To try to build a “biblical foundation” of physics and chemsitry does injustice to the bible and science. I agree with you completely. You shouldn't take me to be suggesting that the Bible can supply information for Science. My presuppositional position is concerned with epistemology generally. I think Science as a method and social enterprise can only be properly understood and can only occupy its proper place when it is viewed through the prior framework of Christian faith. But that means Science occupies its own, limited sphere. And I should note here that the doctrine of common grace is important to understanding why otherwise unregenerate people can also do good Science. Ironically, it is the evangelical rationalists I mentioned above whom I believe are improperly mixing the Bible and Science through ID. The Chicago Statement on Inerrancy, and the similar position on inerrancy adopted by the Evangelical Philosophical Society, demands that the Bible be understood as foundational on matters of scientific fact whenever the Bible purportedly touches on those matters. It is critically important, then, for a Chicago School / EPS person who believes the "kinds" of Genesis 1 require acts of special creation, that the "facts" of Science harmonize with this "fact" of revelation. I am convinced that the most important reason why ID has found such traction in American evangelicalism is that, on the surface, it seems to support the notion of the separate, special creation of the different animal "kinds" and of Adam. When you have major ID conferences organized and presented by folks with these overriding concerns, it defies credibility to suggest that ID is essentially a neutral Scientific enterprise. For these key leaders, it is not that at all; it is rather a tool to support their presuppositions about the Bible. I think we'd be better off acknowledging that and then having a conversation about whether those presuppositions are entirely valid.dopderbeck
April 5, 2007
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Dave, And, by coupling ID to Science, you are suggesting that Science is the ultimate arbiter of what is reasonable and true. There are many (non-Christians, anti-Christians etc) who have long felt that way. We are simply witnessing to them on their terms. We are playing on their court and under their rules and giving them a spanking. My faith has nothing to do with ID. The evolution (no pun intended) of my views was similar to Jerry's. I pretty much accepted Darwinism without thinking about it. Then started thinking about it, then saw the man behing the curtain. Darwinism is bad science. It uses whisper campaigns, intimidation, censorship and publishing double standards against its critics. If that's not bad, bad has no meaning. It's certainly not science.tribune7
April 5, 2007
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Well he can be dishonest or honest about any number of things, what I actually called dishonest was his claims of proof for his positions Mentok, I figured you were referring to rblinne. :-) Anyway, while his claims of proof are exaggerated I think it's safe to say he's not dishonest. I'd be seriously shocked if his post wasn't sincere. "Dishonest" implies a character flaw. Rblinne strikes me a being honorable. Wrong, but honorable.tribune7
April 5, 2007
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I made a typo in the first part of my previous post, I wasn't refering to tribune, I was refering to rblinne.mentok
April 4, 2007
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To those from ASA, From reading this discussion something bothers me. I used to believe in Darwinian evolution without thinking too much about it. My religious faith did not depend one way or the other whether it was true or not. Then I went to a conference in New York City several years ago where Dembski, Behe and several others presented. I had never heard of any of them before. What I took away from this was that the generally accepted theory of evolution (Darwinian gradualism) has a lot of holes in it. Since then I have read a lot like many others here and instead of the generally accepted theory of evolution having a lot of holes in it, there is instead no evidence at all to support it. It is one big empty hole. Everything is circumstantial at best or actually uses one's imagination at worse, using just so stories. It really takes faith to believe it is true. So I am not so much a proponent of ID as a critic of any form of naturalistic mechanism of evolution mainly because I have never seen any evidence to support any of it. But I am perplexed because statements like the following have been made "Dawkins believes just because he slices through your weak arguments that he has conquered Christianity." "Some of ID’s arguments are much stronger than others. The anti-evolutionary ones are its weakest. Focus on the stronger arguments you already have." My observations were that the anti-evolutionary arguments were very strong and that there was no evidence for any naturalistic mechanism for the transition of one species to another. In fact I used to joke here with those who accepted Darwin or Neo Darwinism and challenge them to defend their theory and none could. Occasionally one would bring us something in the fossil record but it was either slim or specious. Nothing that would count as hard evidence without a lot of wishful thinking. The best example at present seems to be the forrest animal to whale progression. So if those at ASA think there is good evidence to support any naturalistic mechanism for the origin of species, let's discuss it here politely and we can learn. Many of us here would welcome an extensive discussion on the details of evolution. For several years, we have been asking anyone who could, to provide the evidence but none have done so. That is why we are skeptical, not because we are pre-disposed to disbelieve. Just to see what the other side was saying, I watched two separate courses on evolution that Berkeley puts up on their website (each had 14 lectures). After watching them I became even more convinced that there was no evidence except circumstantial evidence as I watched the two different professors spin the information to fit the pre-determined conclusions. One professor pretty much falsified Darwin as he discussed "The Origin of Species" but he didn't express it that way. Both also distorted ID in their presentations but I have become so used to seeing those tactics that it just seemed part of what I believe they felt they had to do.jerry
April 4, 2007
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dopderbeck you wrote
Mentok: is Tribune being “dishonest” as well when he acknowledges that front-loaded evolution can be a legitimate position?
Well he can be dishonest or honest about any number of things, what I actually called dishonest was his claims of proof for his positions when the honest position would be that he finds the evidence to be persuasive to his way of thinking, not actual objective proof. You also wrote
It isn’t credible because ID is obviously primarily a movement spearheaded by Christians who are concerned about preserving the doctrine of creation.
I don't know what you mean by "concerned about preserving". What does that mean? I am not a christian and there are many others who support ID who are not christian, maybe it is true that most of the leading ID proponents are christian, but I doubt they see their motivation as wanting to preserve biblical creation doctrine, whatever that means. I believe that they, like myself, are motivated by the desire to see common sense and honesty be the hallmarks of science research and education rather then being under the dictatorial commands of a clique of bigoted dishonest closeminded high priests of materialism whose motivation is indoctrination rather then illumination. I can't speak for them, but that is my motivation. You also wrote
I think Christians who are concerned about the doctrine of creation (as I am) should simply say that, and should move the discussion to questions about foundational assumptions in epistemology. A Christian notion of “design,” after all, makes no sense unless the “designer” is the Christian God.
Well people who think like you can take your advice if they like, but ID is about science, it's not an endeavor into christian philosophy or theology. As for your thoughts on the relationship between TE, ID, and common descent goes, I think that you see TE in one way but many other who also believe in some type of theistic evolution may have a very different vision then your own. There is no single TE point of view. Common descent is a view held by some who believe in ID but there are people who believe in TE and common descent who see god as taking a hands off approach to this world, and that the basic neo-darwinian schema is what is true i.e. god may or may not have created the first life but then from then on evoution occured through random mutation and natural selection. The people who believe in ID and common descent would have to reject that scenario because it takes the ID out of anything but the very first life form (or even negates that as well). Combining common descent and ID seems to be a contradictory position since it implies evolution of some type and evolution means mutation plus natural selection. In order to keep those positions together they would have to believe in a completely different kind of evolution from neo-darwinism, as you rightly point out. But from what I have read most people who profess belief in TE and who reject ID seem to accept random mutation plus natural selection as the mechanisms of macroevolution, whereas the people who accept ID with common descent see intelligent design as the cause of macroevolution.mentok
April 4, 2007
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dopderbeck, Even though you intensely disagree with me, I do appreciate your response as it is surprisingly reprsentative of the view of many Christians, but it is not my view.
you are suggesting that Science is the ultimate arbiter of what is reasonable and true.
No I am not. I am suggesting reality is structured to force certain people to certain conclusions. That is a promise from the scriptures. The scriptures do not teach that one needs the Christian worlview as a prerequisite to discerning Christendom's most important truths. If that were the case, then no one would be saved since no one could come to faith. If being a Christian was pre-requisite to believing in Christ, then none one could become a Christian. The historical facts and events are structured to help men who have faulty and darkened minds. Consider the apologetic Jesus offers in John 10:38:
though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
Jesus does not assume the person is even believing His words! Rather Jesus appeals to physical events as a reason to believe.
the strong ID program, IMHO, betrays, rather than supports, genuine Christian faith
The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics is not made a more credible argument by affixing "thus saith the Lord", neither is information science, math, nor quantum mechanics from which ID proceeds. To try to build a "biblical foundation" of physics and chemsitry does injustice to the bible and science.
The pressure to justify art, science, and entertainment in terms of their spiritual value or evangelistic usefulness ends up damaging both the gift of creation and the gift of the Gospel. Michael S. Horton, Westminster Theological Seminary Where in the World Is the Church?
scordova
April 4, 2007
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Scordova said If ID is similarly transcendent of world-views, ID will be seen by Christians as a reliable truth, and thus a strong evidence for the faith they profess. I for one would like to have faith in something that has a good chance of being true And this is where I think you have things exactly backwards, and where I think the truly major epistemological divide between ID and the general Christian doctrine of creation lies. You have already surrendered, I believe, to a non-Christian epistemology and worldview by taking this approach. What you are saying here suggests that human reason is the ultimate arbiter of truth. And, by coupling ID to Science, you are suggesting that Science is the ultimate arbiter of what is reasonable and true. You are therefore ceding the plausibility of Christian truth claims to Science. I think that is profoundly wrong. My epistemology is drawn from the classical Christian tradition of "faith seeking understanding" as mediated through the Reformation's distrust of unaided human reason. I contend that belief in God is properly basic and is not subject to some more foundational test of human reason. I take it as foundational that the Christian faith not only "has a chance of being true," but simply is true. My principal evidence for that is the inward testimony of the Holy Spirit. I understand your position to be exactly the opposite: it is "understanding seeking faith," with human reason as the proper foundation for any legitimate knowledge claim. It seems to me that in this you stand with Descartes, and ultimately unwittingly agree with folks like Richard Dawkins, in rejecting the mainstream of historic Christian thinking about Truth. Scordova also said: Ironically, the theology-free approach of ID will actually confirm theological ideas inspired by Romans 1:20 and John 10:38, namely, the physical universe evidences major truths which transcend world views. And this, I think, is a fundamental misunderstanding of Biblical natural theology, and underlines the major theological divide between the strong ID program and a thoroughly Christian doctrine of creation. The passages you point to, and others like them, argue that creation demonstrates the power and glory of God. Notice that this refers to the "ordinary" operation of creation according to secondary causes, not to some miraculous intervention in natural history. The Psalmist says the heavens declare the glory of God, and focuses specifically on the sun, which "rises at one end of the heavens and makes its circuit to the other" (Ps. 19). But there is nothing "miraculous" about the sun's circuit across the sky; we can explain it entirely through secondary causes, in heliocentric terms that would have been foreign to the Psalmist. Yet through the lens of faith in God the sovereign and loving creator, we can draw lessons from the beauty and power of the sun about the beauty and power of God and his law (notice the parallel in Ps. 19 between the light of the sun and the light of God's law). Without the spectacles of scripture(to use Calvin's phrase), received in faith supplied through grace by the Holy Spirit, no one will acknowledge God through natural theology -- as Romans 1 makes clear. In other words, natural theology standing alone, without faith or scripture, is always a dead end. By eliding a robust Biblical doctrine of creation from the concept of "design," the strong ID program, IMHO, betrays, rather than supports, genuine Christian faith. It becomes a futile apologetic effort and ultimately weakens the faith of those who learn through its efforts to think Science is the ultimate arbiter of Truth.dopderbeck
April 4, 2007
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Hello dopderbeck-- You quoted me as saying:
The idea that ID is theistic is the typical, “confusing the theory with its implications” misconception.
Then you said:
...It isn’t credible because ID is obviously primarily a movement spearheaded by Christians who are concerned about preserving the doctrine of creation.
As a hypothetical, if ID proponents are concerned about preserving the doctrine of creation, it has no bearing on the theory itself. I don't see the relevance of determining the motives of those spearheading a scientific theory, I only see its political angles. Political and religious motivations are irrelevant in determining the legitimacy of scientific discoveries, IMHO. The conclusions of a pagan scientist should be judged on their merits, not on whether he or she hopes to promote a pagan understanding of science through experimentation. The same for the atheist, the agnostic, the Christian, Jew, or Muslim. (I didn't mean to leave anyone out). I will stick to the understanding that the political or religious beliefs of a scientist may invite scrutiny, but ultimately are irrelevant to the quality of their work. You said:
I think Christians who are concerned about the doctrine of creation (as I am) should simply say that, and should move the discussion to questions about foundational assumptions in epistemology. A Christian notion of “design,” after all, makes no sense unless the “designer” is the Christian God.
Since our respective views on the doctrine of creation are likely at odds, and a matter for deeper theological discussion, I will refrain from addressing this. However a Christian notion of design may make the best sense of any, I would agree with this whole heartedly, but primarily from the perspective of special revelation in scripture. You said:
When we say “design” can be detected apart from acknowledging God as designer, we are ceding the epistemic ground to rationalists and materialist.
I have to disagree with this as well. Romans 1:20 provides strong scriptural support that the general revelation of nature is wholly sufficient to call out the existence of an omnipotent God. The apostle Paul said:
For since the creation of the owrld God's invisible qualities -- his eternal power and divine nature -- have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. (Romans 1:20)
It may defy the stereotype, but ID is not an exclusive Christian creationist club. It's been painted that way for political expediency. Grace and Peace, dopderbeckApollos
April 4, 2007
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That flies in the face of Woese’s discoveries. True. Good point. I'm Mr. Kumbayah today!tribune7
April 4, 2007
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Thank you, Tribune, for making that observation. You're welcome.tribune7
April 4, 2007
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A Christian notion of “design,” after all, makes no sense unless the “designer” is the Christian God.
That is not completely accurate. I suggested reasons why even Christian creationists would have some trouble making deliniations, especially in the modern era of genetic engineering and bacterial intelligence. See: Who are the (multiple) designers? James Shapiro offers some compelling answers Design theory independent of the scriputres is important even to people who believe Christ is the Principal Intelligent Designer of life. The most well-known principles of chemistry and physics transcend world views. Because of this transcendance, these principles are given the status of extremely reliable truths. If ID is similarly transcendent of world-views, ID will be seen by Christians as a reliable truth, and thus a strong evidence for the faith they profess. I for one would like to have faith in something that has a good chance of being true, not just something I want to believe is true. Therefore ID being decoupled from the scriptures is important to me personally. It is very satisfying to hypothetically assume atheistic naturlism as a starting premise, and like Flew come to the opposite conclusion. Ironically, the theology-free approach of ID will actually confirm theological ideas inspired by Romans 1:20 and John 10:38, namely, the physical universe evidences major truths which transcend world views. In fact, the transcendance is so strong it will actually over turn certain world views..... The decoupling of ID from faith is important to people of faith. In contrast, for people who are resolved to reject ID, no amount of reframing the argument will persuade them, thefore what they think is of little value in how the ID argument should be framed. The ID argument should be framed in a manner that makes it the most logically sound, not because of any political or marketing considerations.scordova
April 4, 2007
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rblinne: The recent advances in genetics pretty much prove common descent.
That flies in the face of Woese's discoveries. But even granting common ancestry, common ancestry does not imply mindless origins of life nor that Darwinian evolution was the mechanism of evolution. For example, Kimura showed Darwinism is not the principal mechanism in molecular evolution. See: Perfect architectures which scream design. Also, you might follow the links provided in Blythian evolution explains antibiotic resistance, not Darwinism.
Evolution does such a good job of solving problems a whole class of algorithms called genetic algorithms mimic it in order to do design optimization.
Engineered GA's are designed GA's. Remove the component of intelligent design, and the algorithms become useless. The position you outline equivocates the meaning of the word evolution and effectively makes double speak. Evolution in the sense of GA's is carefully designed toward an objective and is heavily dependent on a designing intelligence. If that were not the case you would not need software engineers to write GAs. One could more properly argue intelligently designed GA's prove intelligent design.scordova
April 4, 2007
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Mentok said concerning Rich's evidence for common descent: The point is that you are dishonest in your claim of proofs. Tribune said concerning Rich's position: Your view regarding evolution, btw, seems quite similar to front-loaded evolution which is held by many here. Mentok: is Tribune being "dishonest" as well when he acknowledges that front-loaded evolution can be a legitimate position? Thank you, Tribune, for making that observation. I think many people like myself who are uncomfortable with the "strongest" versions of either TE or ID would lean towards something like a "front loaded evolution" view. Mentok, the kind of rhetoric you resorted to there, particularly in the context of not really understanding what some key ID folks are saying about common descent, is a big part of the problem in discussions like this one.dopderbeck
April 4, 2007
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Apollos said: The idea that ID is theistic is the typical, “confusing the theory with it’s implications” misconception. This is another one of those things that has caused me to back away from ID over the past year. I used to make this kind of argument too, but I no longer think it's credible or desireable. It isn't credible because ID is obviously primarily a movement spearheaded by Christians who are concerned about preserving the doctrine of creation. It isn't wise, IMHO, because at the end of the day taking this strategy weakens the doctrine of creation and also damages a holistic religious epistemology. I think Christians who are concerned about the doctrine of creation (as I am) should simply say that, and should move the discussion to questions about foundational assumptions in epistemology. A Christian notion of "design," after all, makes no sense unless the "designer" is the Christian God. This will not get our ideas into public school science classrooms, but I think the price of trying to do that under existing U.S. law is too high. We Christians assert that Truth is foundationally rooted in God. When we say "design" can be detected apart from acknowledging God as designer, we are ceding the epistemic ground to rationalists and materialist. That is always a losing proposition in the long run. (If you detect echoes of a Radical Orthodoxy perspective here, you would be right). Mentok said: Some people from the ID side do believe in common descent but that is different then accepting wholesale the neo-darwinian evolutionary schema with the addition of some kind of theistic angle attached to it. This is interesting because I think it betrays a common misunderstanding arising out of the way some ID advocates use the word "evolution" (or "neo-darwinian"). As I understand it, Mentok, you're using "evolution" here to mean an essentially metaphysical proposition: that life arose spontaneously and evolved without any guidance from a designer. That is not what most theistic evolution proponents mean by "evolution". Theistic evolution (setting aside panentheism) is theistic, meaning evolution is not just a happenstance. It sees God's providential guidance in seconary causes as well as primary causes -- just as a farmer might say God "sent the rain" he had been praying for, even though the weatherman can offer a naturalistic explanation for the rainstorm. Paradoxically, ID of the sort that Apollos was referring to seems to weaken this strong notion of providence, because it suggests that if something can be explained via secondary causes, God was not involved. Theistic evolutionists often seem to use "evolution" to mean common descent. For an ID advocate to acknowledge "common descent," then, is huge from the perspective of possible confluence between TE and ID. Essentially, such folks agree that "evolution" happened. The question is merely one of whether secondary causes can explain the development of all of life throughout natural history, or if it is instead necessary and appropriate to posit that God intervened at some places in natural history through primary causes -- for example, by directly creating some complex systems fully assembled. The gap between (non-panentheistic) TE and ID of that sort, IMHO, is not that huge, and is primarily a question of theology and epistemology.dopderbeck
April 4, 2007
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