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Ted Davis — “The Theistic Evolutionists’ Theistic Evolutionist” — Rising above the fray

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Ted Davis, a historian of science at Messiah College, used to be part of a list I moderate. He has some good insights into the history of science (especially into the work of Robert Boyle), but he consistently misses the mark concerning ID. Here is a nice synopsis of his view of ID (also with a jab at UD). It is written to Pim van Meurs, as a mentor would write to his disciple. The short of his view is that ID is a reaction to the scientific materialism of Richard Dawkins, which it tries to displace by setting up a new science, which is really just a disguised form of religion. His counsel is to rise above the fray and realize that both are ideologically motivated. Ideological motivation is all fine and well, but has ID identified fundamental conceptual flaws and evidential lacunae in the conventional materialistic understanding of biological origins and is its appeal to intelligence conceptually sound and empirically supported? I have yet to see Ted address that question.

From: Ted Davis
Date: Mon Apr 02 2007 – 08:56:27 EDT

For Pim and others,

I can only echo David’s comments about Dawkins, who came across in the interview as a much kinder, gentler person than he does in many of his books and articles. Dawkins simply hates religion, and does think that religious people are either stupid or wicked, if not both. And he has company in this.

I recommend to all, the chapter on the “Council of Despair,” in Karl Giberson & Donald Yerxa, “SPecies of Origins.” It’s a splendid overview of scientific atheism in the past couple of decades. For anyone who doubts that this view really exists and is influential, take a look at “Wired” magazine for Nov 2006, with its cover story on “The New Atheism: No Heaven. No Hell. Just Science.”

Also, Pim, I esp recommend that you step away a bit from PT (which is not much more objective than Dembski’s blog, when it comes right down to it) and realize something very, very important about ID. Philip Johnson was responding to two specific influences, when he wrote “Darwin on Trial.” One, to be sure, was Denton’s book, “Evolution: A Theory in Crisis,” but the other one was Dawkins’ “The Blind Watchmaker.” If there were no Dawkins and company, I have little doubt, there would be no Johnson and company as a direct, highly vocal response.

This is something about which the scientific establishment is still somewhat ambivalent, IMO. Some do see what Dawkins is doing in the name of science to be a completely inappropriate extrapolation of science that goes well beyond the sphere and authority of science. But others do not–people like Steven Weinberg, the late Isaac Asimov, the late Carl Sagan, Sam Harris, or Steven Pinker. These are highly influential people, Pim, and it is not surprising to me if they provoke a response in the form of ID. What ID is going goes well beyond science, of course–and they admit this, despite their continued insistence that ID is nevertheless scientific. But Dawkins and company believe in the religion of science (as Dawkins himself as called it), so why not have a science of religion (ID) in response to it? Dawkins’ work goes so far beyond merely debunking ID–which itself is just a big way of debunking his own work. He wants to demonstrate the intellectual bankruptcy of all traditional religions, using science as his club. The sooner this is understood, and the sooner its link with ID is recognized, the sooner the conversation about science education can move
forward.

My best,
Ted

SOURCE: American Scientific Affiliation discussion group.

Comments
It certaily isn't accurate to call ID a "science of religion". A science of religion would be some kind of anthropological or sociological study into religion. ID would be more accurately described as a scientific challenge to metaphysical naturalism. Dawkins ideology also is not really a "religion of science". Science is nothing more then a process through which humans can presumably understand and illuminate something. Since science can be used to challenge and refute much of what Dawkins may believe, therefore Dawkins isn't making a religion of science, he is making a religion of atheism i.e faith that some kind of god does not and cannot exist and therefore human society should act accordingly with that article of faith as it's foundation. Really what Dawkin's ideology is more properly called is "evangelical militant atheism". To claim that ID is a reactionary movement based on respoding to the actions of Dawkins is also in error. The ID movement is a reaction to the promotion of metaphysical and methodological naturalism as the only acceptable approach to giving an accurate ontolgical account of our existance by the academic and scientific establishment. The "establishment" has been trying to "re-educate" the masses into accepting metaphysical or methodological naturalism as being absolute objective reality ever since the current establishment ideology became the establishment ideology back in the 19th century. That action was bound to inspire a reaction from scientists who disagree with that approach. Once that happened of course they were attacked as being religiously motivated, but the truth was that they were reacting to a movement which itself was religiously motivated in insisting that metaphysical or methodological naturalism was the only acceptable ontolgical foundation for establishing objective scientific truisms. The establishment promotion of metaphysical or methodologcal naturalism as absolute objective truth was itself accepted as a reaction to religious ideology. Tt was and still is an attempt to undermine religious belief due to the fear and or dislike of religious ideology and it's ability to influence society. The fraudulent claim of the establishment is that they are not biased and that their acceptance of metaphysical or methodologcal naturalism as the only acceptable form of science is due to the inability to objectively and rationally understand and prove anything other then through methodological naturalism. Metaphysical naturalism is objectively unscientific because it a priori denies all avenues of information input, methodological naturalism is nothing more then acceptance of ignorance as a basis for establishing parameters of acceptable truths. If you tell us that we can discover the objective ontological truth about anything yet we first must proceed by establishing ground rules which disallow information from any particular source we deem to be beyond our ability to objectively understand, then we no longer can presume to be objective because we have removed the unknown from becoming known. It's like trying to be an art critic who is supposed to evaluate the paintings of Rembrandt by first setting the rule that your critique will be limited to touching the paintings. By setting predefined boundaries and parameters of what inforation can be tolerated as objective ontological truth the result is that subjective truth becomes accepted in it's place and the whole affair becomes a sham in the name of science, integrity and scholarship. What we do not understand cannot be used to justify the putting on of constraints and the setting up of parameters and boundaries for what is acceptable as objective truth. ID is fighting the insistence that "science" must reject all information if that information leads to the conclusion that something beyond mechanistic processes can account for the natural order. Foolishly even though our own intelligence as humans we can manipulate the natural order and by doing so show that something non mechanistic can impose it's will over the natural order, the idea that some kind of entity with more ability then ourselves can do so is somehow unthinkable. More amazingly is that most of those people will agree that some alien life from some other planet may be far more advanced then we as humans are, but tell them that there may be an alien life form which can build humans or create planets, then that is unbelievable. Maybe it's a size and scale prejudice. Maybe they can easily conceive of an alien civilization with beings who are similar in size and composition and ability with humans, but they cannot conceive of an alien which is of a completely different type, which maybe is trillions of times larger then us and older then us and without reliance on some kind of cellular body. Conceiving of the existance of a Klingon is perfectly acceptable and plausible, but acceptance of an alien so much larger and different from us and so far more scientifically advanced then us that humans would be like microscopic specks and planets are like little games it builds and plays with, well that is just not possible.mentok
April 2, 2007
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Davis comes across as reasonable to me, though I'd have some disagreement with him. Still, he hits an important point - mostly that Dawkins is rabid about the subject of religion, and doesn't seem to realize that he's advancing a faith of his own. The dawning point for me was hearing the moral abuses of atheistic governments explained away as 'Well, (communism, fascism, etc) became religions'. I wonder how long it will be before Dawkins asks himself, 'If atheistic views can become religion, what am I fighting against? In fact, have I become what I insist I'm fighting?'nullasalus
April 2, 2007
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I would posit that ID is a reactionary position. It is a well reasoned reaction to the misinformed reasoning of the materialistic anti-ID position. And that sharply constrasts with the knee-jerk reactions observed over on PT.Joseph
April 2, 2007
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I know nothing about Ted Davis except what has been posted above. But anyone that views Pim van Meurs as a credible spokesperson for anything, especially one's own position, has to be suspect. Does Ted Davis really buy PvM's act? If he does then that says something about Ted Davis and it is not positive. Maybe Ted Davis should read PvM's rants last year on the Cornell ID course blog and see how he approves of his conduct in mutual conversation.jerry
April 2, 2007
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We might go further and say that ID is the inherently more reasonable position (scientifically, philosophically, etc.), Considering the Bacons, it's quite to fair to say it's an axiom upon which science was founded. Ted Davis fails to see the point of ID because he mistakenly casts it as the reactionary position. Note that he says PT (which is not much more objective than Dembski’s blog, when it comes right down to it) I don't spend much time on PT but as of 11:52 a.m., April 2 this was its list of recent entries: The Silliest Thing Yet, or Sheer Genius? by Pete Dunkelberg SUCKERED by Guest Contributor The Smarch of My Life by Prof. Steve Steve KCFS Response to IDnet Proposal by Burt Humburg Jonathan Wells: Who is He, What is He Doing, and Why? by Burt Humburg Egnor just doesn't know when to quit by Tara Smith Mammal Evolution - Fossils and Molecules by Mike Dunford Don't blame the dinosaurs by PZ Myers The Addiction of Egnorance by Reed A. Cartwright Don't teach ID -- at least not until our textbook is published by Nick Matzke 7 out of 10 are reactions to the things IDers were doing.tribune7
April 2, 2007
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ID is a critique of mecahnistic neo-darwinism is it not? This Buddhist thinks it is a very sharp critique indeed. I read Uncommon Dissent after Stove's critique, and if there were any scales left to fall from my eyes they were gone. (Thanks.) I didn't appreciate how widespread the panic was in scientism until I clapped eyes on the ID wikipedia pages. A good sense of humour must be essential for ID scribes.chrisdornan
April 2, 2007
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Interesting point tribune7. We might go further and say that ID is the inherently more reasonable position (scientifically, philosophically, etc.), that Darwin and Dawkins are the reactionaries, and that Ted Davis fails to see the point of ID because he mistakenly casts it as the reactionary position.William Dembski
April 2, 2007
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If there were no Dawkins and company . . . maybe Davis would get the point of ID.tribune7
April 2, 2007
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