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The Groupthink Syndrome

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Read the following and ask yourself which side in the ID vs. Darwinism debate exhibits the groupthink syndrome:

The groupthink syndrome: Review of the major symptoms
Source: http://www.swans.com/library/art9/xxx099.html

In order to test generalization about the conditions that increase the chances of groupthink, we must operationalize the concept of groupthink by describing the symptoms to which it refers. Eight main symptoms run through the case studies of historic fiascoes. Each symptom can be identified by a variety of indicators, derived from historical records, observer’s accounts of conversations, and participants’ memoirs. The eight symptoms of groupthink are:

1. an illusion of invulnerability, shared by most or all the members, which creates excessive optimism and encourages taking extreme risks;

2. collective efforts to rationalize in order to discount warnings which might lead the members to reconsider their assumptions before they recommit themselves to their past policy decisions;

3. an unquestioned belief in the group’s inherent morality, inclining the members to ignore the ethical or moral consequences of their decisions;

4. stereotyped views of enemy leaders as too evil to warrant genuine attempts to negotiate, or as too weak and stupid to counter whatever risky attempts are made to defeat their purposes;

5. direct pressure on any member who expresses strong arguments against any of the group’s stereotypes, illusions, or commitments, making clear that this type of dissent is contrary to what is expected of all loyal members;

6. self-censorship of deviations from the apparent group consensus, reflecting each member’s inclination to minimize to himself the importance of his doubts and counterarguments;

7. a shared illusion of unanimity concerning judgments conforming to the majority view (partly resulting from self-censorship of deviations, augmented by the false assumption that silence means consent);

8. the emergence of self-appointed mindguards – members who protect the group from adverse information that might shatter their shared complacency about the effectiveness and morality of their decisions.

When a policy-making group displays most or all of these symptoms, the members perform their collective tasks ineffectively and are likely to fail to attain their collective objectives. Although concurrence-seeking may contribute to maintaining morale after a defeat and to muddling through a crisis when prospects for a successful outcome look bleak, these positive effects are generally outweighed by the poor quality of the group’s decision-making. My assumption is that the more frequently a group displays the symptoms, the worse will be the quality of its decisions. Even when some symptoms are absent, the others may be so pronounced that we can predict all the unfortunate consequences of groupthink.

Comments
Cornelius Hunter comments here on the essentially religious nature of Darwinism: http://www.idthefuture.com/2006/10/biogeography.html#more His says basically that Darwinism is rationalism - the triumph of reason over empirical evidence and experience.russ
October 16, 2006
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Welcome to UD, SeekAndFind. Looks like you've already gotten some good answers from other commenters, so I'll be brief. ID, as I understand it (and I'm pretty sure this is correct), is fundamentally a study of minds and the patterns they produce in the external world. IDists look at marks in nature and then try to determine whether or not the cause of those marks is intelligence. The characteristics of the designer, how many designers there are, how competently it/they design, etc.--these are all interesting subjects of inquiry, but they're not ID. In fact, ID doesn't even postulate a designer. The way design detection works on any level is first, a pattern is recognized, and then, the most probable cause (intelligence/nonintelligence) is determined. Designer detection is folly--even in cases involving humans.crandaddy
October 15, 2006
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My post #55 was pulled. That's a first. May I ask why? Zero You're comment got caught in the spam filter, and it ended up here when I approved it. I'm not quite sure why at the moment.--CrandaddyZero
October 15, 2006
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Hello SeekAndFind. As a fairly typical poster around here -- a non-scientist who is interested in discovering truth, let me respond to your questions. 1 - Your general descrption of neo-Darwinian evolution is a pretty good one. Your question, however, I think presumes a much more controlling designer than most of us expect to find. You as, "How does the designer know how a given change will affect all other nearby species and how the target species will react to any unintended feedback loops?" I really think that natural selection is the great balancer, and that the designer counts on natural selection to cause all of nature to adjust to the specific characteristics that are developed in a given species. If lynxes become better at hunting rabbits, then the rabbits near those lynxes which happen to have the best allele mix to survive will soon dominate the population. Do the rabbits need to be bigger or smaller, better camoflaged, more cautious, etc., all of these traits already exist within the rabbit. If this is not so, then the rabbit will die out, or near so, in the area and the lynx will have to find other food. I don't think that anything significant about ID theory is demonstrated in this context. Here is a puzzle for you: If you take your description of evolution and extrapolate over deep time, you would expect that we would find a single organism species which separates to become two organism species. These species should then each divide to become more species, and the diversity of life should appear through such a process. We wouldn't expect that it would be pretty, or rythmic, but that diversity would slowly be achieved. Rather what we see in the earliest form of life is that there are already three very distinct domains. Some billions of years later, the kingdoms suddenly appear in the rock record. Then there is the great phylum event -- the cambrian explosion. Though there seems to be some multi-cellular animal life preceeding the explosion, rather suddenly (non-Iders breath fire again please, 10 million years is a long time) a whole bunch of phyla show up. These creatures are as different from each other as can be. Since then, no new philums. Some time later the classes happen, then the orders and so on. We simply do not see the kind of progression that one would expect as species diverge through a RM+NS process. I, therefore, have concluded -- happy to be proved wrong -- that the process as you described does not describe the phenomenon that created the diversity of life. SeekAndFind, "Is ID Science simply interested in DESIGN DETECTION, PERIOD ?" I think ID Science and IDers must be divided into two camps here. The science of ID (non-IDers, feel free to spit fire) is interested in design detection, period. (caviat, some pursue the detection of design by posing a specific design purpose, then attempting to prove that this design purpose is being fulfilled; therefore evidence that a purpose is being fulfilled is evidence for the designer.) IDers, on the other hand, are interested in all of the above, and hold views similar to all of the above.bFast
October 15, 2006
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SeekAndFind wrote: “Is ID Science simply interested in DESIGN DETECTION, PERIOD ?” Many others here are for more knowledgeable than I am, so I won’t be offended if you take what I say with a grain of salt, but the short answer is “yes”. ID looks at something like the information content in living things and makes the logical inference that the best explanation for it is design, period. ID doesn’t care about the identity of the designer, the will or purpose of the designer, or “who designed the designer”. Those are philosophical considerations. Design is simply a logical conclusion based upon the available evidence, not a crutch-theory that tries to make up for lack of evidence. I recommend you watch or listen to as many ID vs. Darwin debates as you can find, because for me, it has been very helpful to hear both sides presented at once. Most of my misconceptions of ID were just that – misconceptions.shaner74
October 15, 2006
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Barrett1, You are man after my heart. I would love to abolish the public schools. My wife and I went to private schools and all our children went to private schools except one daughter who went to Penn State for college and then we paid out of state tuition. However, most people went to public schools and I doubt you could ever get even a significant minority let alone a majority to agree to it. You are a rarity, an anti Darwinist, anti socialist who reads Milton Friedman and is a Democrat. You are an endangered species. SeekandFind, There lots of different people here so you will get a variety of answers if they answer. In your first question you are essentially asking about ecology and this is a question that is dear to me. One of the things that has to be considered if someone was starting life is that it must exist in some sort of ecology and this will probably be as important a consideration as the design of individual organisms themselves. If in the future, humans start life someplace they will have to spend an inordinate amount of time developing an ecology which not only includes several life forms but the physical environment of chemicals, temperature, seasonal changes etc. It would be a huge problem. Especially if you want them to interact and not have one life form dominate and wipe the others out. For the designer(s) who started our world maybe it took several hundred million years to get it right or set up properly. Who knows. As to your second question, the intent of the designer gets brought up all the time by the Darwinists who try to trap the ID people into admitting ID is all a game and that ID is really pseudo religious theory so that it can be thrown out of the schools if it ever gets in. ID people deny that ID is nothing more than detection to avoid this trap. Many on the pro ID side here may be interested in the intent of the designer but it is nothing more than speculation. You could spend months or years discussing it and it would be difficult to do so and remove any religious background one might have. You may have spirited discussion but you would never come to any conclusions. They have been discussing the meaning of life for thousands of years and look how much we know today about it.jerry
October 15, 2006
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Allen, do you believe that all life came from a single ancestor via naturalistic means and that this has been established beyond argument?tribune7
October 15, 2006
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I have been a long time lurker but first time poster. I come to this site in order to educate myself, not to support or deny any view. May I some questions please ( first post, but I am trying to keep an open mind here ). If I happen to question both ID and or Evolution proponents, it is because I am trying to clarify things. Since this is an ID website, I will try to address this to ID proponents first. 1) If I am not mistaken, We have two very obvious processes within Evolution that have been verified - mutation and selection. We know that mutations, everything from single point changes to chromosome duplication to genome duplication (polyploidy) occur on a regular basis. Through observation of the effect of selection on domestic animals we also know that alleles can and do change frequency within a population due to external selection pressures. (Whether mutation and selection can produce macro-evolution is irrelevant to my question). We have observed that same allele variation in wild populations and we know through observation that the environment can split a population and tend the two new groups to diverge far enough that interbreeding does not happen. If we posit an Intelligent Designer. How does the designer know how a given change will affect all other nearby species and how the target species will react to any unintended feedback loops? How does the designer know what changes in environment, including climate and geology, the target population will experience in the future? 2) Is ID Science simply interested in DESIGN DETECTION, PERIOD ? How about the INTENT and PURPOSE of the Designer ? What if we have a whimsical designer whose designs purposefully resemble nature as closely as possible. What if we have multiple designers who take wildly different approaches to biological design? Are ID proponents interested in these questions a t all, or do you leave the answer to these question to Philosophy and Theology ? Thanks for reading and responding.SeekAndFind
October 15, 2006
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If there’s no meaning at all in life or the world, that means that Provine’s very proclamations of no meaning are just as devoid of any meaning!
That's right! I just love it when naturalists say that the universe is meaningless! They say it so innocently--as if they're clueless to the disasterous consequences it carries with it. ;)crandaddy
October 15, 2006
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Symmetry (empirical evidence derived from observation) Every leaf is symmetrical. Every blade of grass is symmetrical. You and I are symmetrical. Every living thing starts out symmetrical, even a flounder. If you fold a piece of paper and cut out a paper doll, it is symmetrical and the "fold" is the balance point (cg), center. If you begin at the cg, you can count (measure) as far as you like, up or down, left or right, ahead or behind, more or less, and plus or minus, from a beginning to any amount. Any number stated always means, "This quanity is this amount (units) away from zero". If you fold (halve) 74, Jesus,( the two ends of G-D), you get 37 (cg) *, the middle. Jhn 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, [and] one shepherd. (BTW, the last I heard, shepherds don't marry sheep.) Does the Intelligent Designer mean, "They are lost sheep and don't know where the fold is?" or does he mean, "They know and could care less." Does "must bring" leave them with FOC? Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. O (none) is in the middle of G-D Eze 22:30 And I sought for a man among them, that should make up the hedge, and stand in the gap before me for the land, that I should not destroy it: but I found none. Jhn 14:30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me. Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, [that] from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince [shall be] seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. If you fold infinity once, you can find the middle, zero. Here in reality, O is real. Every thing in the Inteligent Designer's house (temple) is measured. Rev 11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. Rev 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty [and] two months. In my observations of creation and life, chaos is natural. Symmetry and order are "mind made". Randomness, chance, never ever produces symmetry, ordered functionality. or life. I am astonished no one has asked about man's 6th sense or the analogy of Soloman and a lilly. Blessings Zero *Psa 37:37 Mark the perfect [man], and behold the upright: for the end of [that] man [is] peace.Zero
October 15, 2006
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It seems to me that this debate frequently finds a strange, circuitous route to the issue of science teaching in the public school system. This is unfortunate. I wonder how the debate would change if it was removed from the equation. As a lifelong Democrat, I've always been uneasy with my fellow liberals who express an inordinate fondness for government acting as parent, teacher, piggy bank, etc. In my view, socialism, run amok, is the most dangerous of situations. Unfortunately, the Republican platform of small government and fiscal conservatism seems to have lost steam in recent years. Now everyone raids the public trough with impunity and dreams of marshalling the power of government to support their views. I suggest the abolition of public schools, as economist Milton Friedman once suggested. It need not be harsh. There are smart people who can develop a system that is fair and equitable and provides people with choice.Barrett1
October 15, 2006
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JasonTheGreek, If all the Provine has done is meaningless in every sense, why has he done it? If we have no free will, no way to control our thoughts, our actions, etc- why waste your time in telling us? Clearly, if there’s no free will, we cannot possibly come to your side of the debate, as our actions are merely following a set course of action! He can't help himself, naturally! That's the real problem with the worldview presented. The people who make it so many times proceed to talk about the important implications it should have for the world, society - almost always the wisdom, reason, and obvious validity of the view itself. "The universe is meaningless, there is no purpose, our destiny is oblivion. Now, here's why this should be important to you..."nullasalus
October 15, 2006
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By the way- I wonder if Provine had a child and someone murdered that child if he would be angry or upset? Would he go to court and tell them all- 'it's okay, this man had no control over his actions...let him go free.' I so highly doubt it. No one can think as Provine does without living a completely contradictory life. It's impossible. A complete contradiction tho, can't have much truth to it if you ask me.JasonTheGreek
October 15, 2006
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Thanks for the quotes Borne. Really shows the absurd nature of the debate here. If Provine views all of his thoughts and conclusions as merely chemical reactions that he has no control over- why does he ever give his opinion at all? I never understood this. How on earth is free will destructive, I wonder?! Our courts would indeed be a disaster if we said that we have no control over our actions, that we're just fancy machines of meat acting out a program till death! Provine's view can't ever make sense. If all he says is the result of a simple chemical reaction and nothing else- then nothing he says means ANYTHING. If there's no meaning at all in life or the world, that means that Provine's very proclamations of no meaning are just as devoid of any meaning! If all the Provine has done is meaningless in every sense, why has he done it? If we have no free will, no way to control our thoughts, our actions, etc- why waste your time in telling us? Clearly, if there's no free will, we cannot possibly come to your side of the debate, as our actions are merely following a set course of action! When your very argument starts off with- "everything I'm about to say has no meaning and is merely the result of chemical reactions not under my control" you're screwed from the start!JasonTheGreek
October 15, 2006
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Chris Hyland, I wonder if you suggested that criticism of Darwinism and neo Darwinism be part of the biology curriculum in the UK and the US how long you would last in your postion.jerry
October 15, 2006
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Chris Hyland, I would be interested in evidence for co-option.jerry
October 15, 2006
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"For example we can take a gene from a mouse that controls eye development, stick in a fly genome lacking that gene and the subsequent fly emerges with fly eyes, not mouse eyes." Depending on the gene Im not sure what the problem is here. Surely it just means that downstream the same gene initiates eye development in both species. "As for “endless forms…”- real science seems to have refuted that:" Doesn't that just explain some aspects of convergence. I don't see how it refutes evo-devo. "Allen, why such strong resistance to a critical analysis of Darwin and neo Darwinism in high school and college curriculums? Here we have you as an evolutionary scientist admitting that a lot of what is taught is bogus but will you step up to the plate and join us in getting criticism of Darwin into the curriculum. We can then put your other mechanisms in for examination also." I think the difference between what I was taught in high school biology and what i learned in university is no different than with someone who does a degree in physics or chemistry. There are legitimate critisisms to be sure, but I don't think that a lengthire treatment would have much affect on this deabate, and I certainly don't see any evidence of any kind of conspiracy as is often talked about. "His ideas also depend upon some mechanism which modifies the tens of thousands of switches and their firing patterns to get the “novel” evolution of new body plans, systems etc. Only speculation at best." Its mostly to do with processes like genes altering and aquiring/losing new promoter sequences. This has been repeatedly observed occuring at the molecular level. I spoke to a professor recently who does large scale studies of transcription factor proteins binding to these promotor sequences to try and figire out what activates what. He said in a cell culture you have to account for the fact that genes will aquire binding regions for new transcription factors and, this can complicate the expermiment. "So those of us who have found Darwin deficient have to look elsewhere to direct our understanding, namely Lynn Margulis and her ideas such as “acquiring genomes” or other mechanisms." I got taught about symbiosis in high school when we were being taught about organelles. "Homology and co-option just don’t get it done. These are just terms pulled out of the back pocket when one gets stuck." I don't get what this is supposed to mean, co-option is a process we know occurs. “Let me summarize my views on what modern evolutionary biology tells us loud and clear — and these are basically Darwin’s views. There are no gods, no purposes, and no goal-directed forces of any kind. There is no life after death. When I die, I am absolutely certain that I am going to be dead. That’s the end of me. There is no ultimate foundation for ethics, no ultimate meaning in life, and no free will for humans, either. What an unintelligible idea.” I don't particularly agree with him here but I don't see how it's much different to someone saying that science affirms their belief in God. Obviously if when confronted he were to say that this is scientific inference or teach it as science then I would be just as angry as any of you.Chris Hyland
October 15, 2006
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8. the emergence of self-appointed mindguards - members who protect the group from adverse information that might shatter their shared complacency about the effectiveness and morality of their decisions. There are NCSE and the KCFS- to name a couple such "mindguards"...Joseph
October 15, 2006
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AM: "The Capacity for Religious Experience is an Evolutionary Adaptation for Warfare”, Evolution & Cognition," Now that is funny! How about this one - the push for rape is an evolutionary adaptation for spreading one's genes to the maximum number of viable females? Such as in Thornhill's ridiculous and in fact rather morally disgusting book? A Natural History of Rape: Biological Bases of Sexual Coercion: by Randy Thornhill,Craig T. Palmer. *they also have the idiocy to claim there is no other viable point of view!!* The authors explain rape as an evolutionary, sexual reproductive, adaptation in human males. They also claim that it "is not a debatable issue", since evolution theory says that this is what rape actually is - an adaptive behavioral pattern based on bio-chemical interactions in the male system and selection pressures. As for Provine, it aint for nothin' he's often referred to as one of the high priests of darwinian fundamentalism. Example: "There is no intelligent design in the natural world. When mammals die, they are really and truly dead. No ultimate foundations for ethics exist, no ultimate meaning in life exists, and free will is merely a human myth. These are all conclusions to which Darwin came quite clearly." Ah, so there is no ultimate foundation for ethics? Meaning of course that nothing is either ultimately right or wrong ethically - so why the complaints on ad hominem attacks - or any thing else? He continues, "Let me summarize my views on what modern evolutionary biology tells us loud and clear -- and these are basically Darwin's views. There are no gods, no purposes, and no goal-directed forces of any kind. There is no life after death. When I die, I am absolutely certain that I am going to be dead. That's the end of me. There is no ultimate foundation for ethics, no ultimate meaning in life, and no free will for humans, either. What an unintelligible idea." No purposes? So what is your purpose here? Or in life? Or anyone's purpose? And: "Life may have no ultimate meaning, but I sure think it can have lots of proximate meaning. Free will is not hard to give up, because it's a horribly destructive idea to our society." Now of course the funny thing about all his talk about no free will existing is that, if true, then none of what he or anyone believes, says or does is of personal choice - it's all hard-wired - like the rape adaptation. Ohhh, the courts would have a catastrophe on their hands if lawyers started defending rapists on that basis! Under these views, nothing anyone says on any subject whatsoever is accomplished by choice but of necessity - thus demolishing all Provine's own ideas and every other action or thought in history. As CS Lewis so aptly said, "If naturalism were true then all thoughts whatever would be wholly the result of irrational causes...it cuts its own throat." and thus, "The very idea of freedom presupposes some objective moral law which overarches rulers and ruled alike...Unless we return to the crude and nursery-like belief in objective values, we perish." Whatever. Provine is just one such totally self-contradictory reasoner in the debate. Dawkins is another - and the list is very long.Borne
October 15, 2006
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Hey, We have made progress. Allen has admitted that Darwinism and neo Darwinism does not drive all or most of the allele change and creation that has happened in the last 540 million years. Allen, why such strong resistance to a critical analysis of Darwin and neo Darwinism in high school and college curriculums? Here we have you as an evolutionary scientist admitting that a lot of what is taught is bogus but will you step up to the plate and join us in getting criticism of Darwin into the curriculum. We can then put your other mechanisms in for examination also. So those of us who have found Darwin deficient have to look elsewhere to direct our understanding, namely Lynn Margulis and her ideas such as “acquiring genomes” or other mechanisms. Allen, I have read Sean Carroll's book and found no evidence for naturalistic evolution other than the homology argument. It is a fascinating book but his defense of naturalistic evolution depend upon the existence of a pre-Cambrian organism with all the genes necessary for body parts, eyes, IC systems etc. already in place and I did not see any evidence other than assertion for such an organism or how such a complex organism could have developed in such a short time. His ideas also depend upon some mechanism which modifies the tens of thousands of switches and their firing patterns to get the "novel" evolution of new body plans, systems etc. Only speculation at best. Homology and co-option just don't get it done. These are just terms pulled out of the back pocket when one gets stuck. We will have to examine the other league to see if Lynn Margulis is really hitting the ball out of the park or just an aside for her speculation for the origin of eukaryotes? Thank you for your comments. If we can keep it civil, we can learn a lot from each other. One of them is that many of us here are not creationists in any religious form and for me, one who in the past accepted the Darwinian explanation till I saw the evidence.jerry
October 15, 2006
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“I wonder if DR McNeil tells his students that we don’t even know what makes an organism what it is…” Allen MacNeill: No, I must admit that I do not tell them that. Instead, I assign them Sean Carroll’s new book, Endless Forms Most Beautiful, and we spend a few weeks talking about precisely what Joseph seems to think we know nothing about: how a unicellular zygote becomes a multicellular animal. First I don't think we know nothing about what makes an organism what it is. However we do know that although genes may influence every aspect of development they do not determine it. For example we can take a gene from a mouse that controls eye development, stick in a fly genome lacking that gene and the subsequent fly emerges with fly eyes, not mouse eyes. Allen MacNeill And no, we don’t throw up our hands and say “It’s a mystery about which we know nothing.” Nope, we do our level best to figure it out, using the tools that experience has shown will serve best for that process: empirical investigation combined with rigorous statistical (and sometimes mathematical) analysis. I never implied nor suggested we throw up our hands. Your strawman responses are duly noted. Allen MacNeill That’s how real science is done. Real science is concerned with finding out the reality behind what we are observing. And by ruling out ID a priori, especially seeing that the materialistic alternative is a science stopping "sheer-dumb-luck" scenario, one has to wonder if anti-IDists are conducting science at all. As for "endless forms..."- real science seems to have refuted that: Unified physics theory explains animals' running, flying and swimming:
The findings may have implications for understanding animal evolution, Marden said. One view of evolution holds that it is not a purely deterministic process; that history is full of chance and historical contingency. It is the idea purported by Steven Jay Gould and others that if you were to "rewind the tape" and run it again, evolution would proceed down a different path, Marden said. "Our finding that animal locomotion adheres to constructal theory tells us that -- even though you couldn't predict exactly what animals would look like if you started evolution over on earth, or it happened on another planet -- with a given gravity and density of their tissues, the same basic patterns of their design would evolve again," Marden said.
I guess neither you nor Dr Carroll received the memo...Joseph
October 15, 2006
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Also, I am reminded of Richard Feynman in his book "Surely You're Joking"... "That is the idea that we all hope you have learned in studying science in school--we never say explicitly what this is, but just hope that you catch on by all the examples of scientific investigation. It is interesting, therefore, to bring it out now and speak of it explicitly. It's a kind of scientific integrity, a principle of scientific thought that corresponds to a kind of utter honesty--a kind of leaning over backwards."Ben Z
October 15, 2006
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So when Ernst Mayr wrote, in his 1998 book What Evolution Is in the questions in the back of the book, "Evolution is simply a fact", he was stating it in clear terms? I've always admired Mayr, however, for his quote in the same book on the status of Christian ethics. "That’s what happens when you get old and stop doing field work: you rely more and more on memory, and less and less on observation to draw conclusions." I have considered this, but I think Mayr at least has some merit to him--he tried to learn more Philosophy later in life and apply it to Biology so that I'm not so sure that this crituqe applies in full (I think he might have been reading up on the newest info and history of evolution).Ben Z
October 15, 2006
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BenZ wrote: "I am reminded of Ernst Mayr, in his last book What Makes Biology Unique, in which he argues that Thomas Kuhn’s work on Revolutions does not apply to EB at all." And here I could not disagree more with Ernst Mayr. On the contrary, I believe that evolutionary biology has a larger than usual quotient of scientific revolutions of the type described by Kuhn. That is how I structure my introductory evolution course: we take a historical approach to evolutionary biology, pointing out the various revolutions and controversies that have accompanied them. I believe that Ernst, especially in his later years, was trying his best to "hold together" a discipline that had exploded since he himself revolutionized it in the 1930s. That's what happens when you get old and stop doing field work: you rely more and more on memory, and less and less on observation to draw conclusions. It's already happening to me, as hard as I try not to fall prey to it. Maybe this is why most Nobel prize winners in science are either under the age of 40, or did the work for which they were finally recognized when they were much younger?Allen_MacNeill
October 15, 2006
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As to the question of "lying" to students, I once overheard a conversation between two professors (while showering at the gym). One mentioned how he taught a particular concept, to which the other replied "Isn't that just a little deceptive?" The other replied "Every educational act begins with an act of deception." And I agree. When we investigate the world around us, we are as scientists required to be as skeptical as possible, especially about our own most cherished preconceptions. Otherwise we may miss the anomaly that leads to a whole new field of investigation. However, when we communicate this to our students (and to granting agencies, etc.), we have to sound much more certain about what we think we know than we are amongst ourselves. Why? Because the most common reaction to ambiguity is immediate rejection. Students who are constantly exposed to a litany of ambiguous statements quickly come to the conclusion that a teacher who deals only in ambiguities doesn't know anything about the subject. In other words, to make it possible to understand the flaws in a theory, one must first understand the theory. One cannot attack a position that is composed entirely of vague ambiguities. This is why Ernst Mayr always stated his beliefs in the strongest possible terms. He wanted people to understand as clearly as possible what he was asserting, so that if they disagreed with him (which many of us did), we would know exactly what it was we disagreed with, and how best to attack it.Allen_MacNeill
October 15, 2006
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DaveScot wrote: "Macroevolution could also be largely an unfolding of preexisting information. Just as an individual organism is the ontogenetic unfolding of preexisting information so too could macroevolution be the phylogenetic unfolding of preexisting information." This is an interesting hypothesis, and one that is potentially testable. For example, Lynn Margulis has suggested that most of animal developmental genetics, and especially sex, are the result of the peculiar mechanism by which animals make gametes and zygotes: meiosis, followed by the fusion of haploid gametes. Unlike in other organisms, sexual reproduction appears to be obligate in most animals (but c.f. whiptail lizards). Margulis has proposed that this is because the complexity of animal developmental genetics requires a much higher level of genetic fidelity during gamete production and fusion: as some IDers have rightly pointed out, genetic alterations in animals (e.g. "mutations") are much more likely to result in non-viability than equivalent alterations in other organisms. Hence, a very complex mechanism (the entire prophase I through anaphase I apparatus) is required to minimize the deleterious effects of genetic changes, essentially by using comparison between non-identical genomes for error-correction. And so, because of developmental genetic constraints, most animals are "required" to have sex as a prerequisite to reproduction. In the fullness of evolutionary time, this seemingly simple constraint has resulted in Darwin's "mechanism" of sexual selection, and the immense complexity that accompanies the physiological and behavioral differences between the sexes in animals, including significant portions of our own behavior. Is this "front-loading" or "the unfolding of a pre-existing plan?" Not exactly; there is no evidence that indicates that the peculiar mechanism of meiotic sex—>haploid gametic fusion—>diploid development was in any way "intended" to bring about such things as the reluctance of men to ask for directions or women's seeming obsession with shoes. However, that's the way contingency works in evolutionary biology: it sets things in motion that, in the fullness of time, bring about complexity piled on complexity.Allen_MacNeill
October 15, 2006
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Sheut, you get bored with the website and suddenly you realize that you missed out on the heart of a great thread. Dr. MacNeill, its been enjoyable to have your opinion expressed here, even though you did start out surprisingly "spirited". I am puzzled that you seem to have encountered honest IDers quite a bit, yet you still seem to equate us with the "Bible first (my interpretation only please)" crowd down at ICR. I am fairly typical of bloggers on this site -- not a professional biologist, or scientist for that matter. I have a religious perspective, and I realize that it colors my interpretation of the facts. However, having a bias is much different than having a closed mind. It seems, however, that your position is very ID friendly. I was most intrigued by your statement:
It is the “engine of variation” that both IDers and EBers are really interested in, and which is only just now becoming amenable to scientific investigation. I believe that it is still an open question just exactly how this “engine” operates, and what its scope (and limitations) might be.
As I read the view of IDers, this "engine of variation" is the main bone of contention that exists between the ID evolutionist and the NDE evolutionist. I respect that your position is that the nature of this "engine" is not well understood. You have also introduced me to a few new terms, "endosymbiosis, developmental plasticity, and large-scale genome rearrangements". I will be exploring the net to learn about these because I am not in a position to take your courses. Lastly, you mention the issue of few people changing camps in your course, but more moving to evolution than otherwise. It brings me back to when I was in Bible College. I took a course called "The Pentatute", which taught only Genesis 1. The position of the instructor was clearly young earth. It worked for many in the class, but brought me to the conclusion that I now had a thorough enough grasp of all of the available evidence to make up my mind. I have not held a young earth theology since. However, I also recall a fellow sharing on one of these forums, this one I believe. His Ph. D. thesis was on ATP synthase. When he had finished his thesis he had concluded that NDE was in error, and that his religious conviction "athieism" was also in error. This knife certainly cuts both ways. When Cornell offered your science course that was giving ID a seat at the table, this website was all abuz. We, in general, were very excited to see honest discussion about ID. I, for one, would love to see you be a regular poster on this site.bFast
October 15, 2006
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I am reminded of Ernst Mayr, in his last book What Makes Biology Unique, in which he argues that Thomas Kuhn's work on Revolutions does not apply to EB at all. Of course, EBs are free to disagree, but I've only seen praise of his work... Allen writes, "However, every single one of them apply (in spades) to some of the anti-evolution/YEC groups".... Forgive me for not understanding what "in spades" means, but I do direct you to the book "Three Views on Creation and Evolution" in which John Mark Reynolds-YEC-says in his part that the scientific evidence is not strongest for his position. Does that sound like invincibility? And the fact that he's writing in a book with two other positions, does that not show a willingness to exchange views? Have you read James Porter Moreland's book Christianity and the Nature of Science on the scientific status of a creation hypothesis? Or Bruce Gordon's essay, http://www.4truth.net/site/apps/nl/content3.asp?c=hiKXLbPNLrF&b=1171681&ct=1740333, on the scientific status of design inferences? Have you responded? Have you seen the one hour documentary on evolution on the Science channel? It's like hearing atheism 101. No differing views are discussed... sure, not all EBs are like that, but I haven't seen any condemn the show. --- Al: "...have Will and I “lied” to them?"... Dave: Possibly unwittingly but yes. Me: Isn't the essence of a lie the fact that you know it's not true? ---Ben Z
October 15, 2006
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Zero asked: "You mean, as a driver, I might learn where I’m going by where I’ve been?" An interesting analogy: from an evolutionary viewpoint, that is exactly right. The future is entirely determined by the past; events in the past constraint the trajectory of events in the future. That's what cause-and-effect and the "arrow of time" are all about. "I’m just a carpenter. I once clipped a bird’s wing and learned he couldn’t fly. Does that make me a scientist?" Yep, especially if you wondered beforehand if clipping the bird's wing might prevent it from flying. That's the hypothetico-deductive method in a nutshell: observe reality (birds seem to use their winds to fly), formulate a testable hypothesis (wings are necessary for bird flight), make a prediction (therefore, if I clip this bird's wing, it should be unable to fly), test the prediction (clip the birds wing and see if it can fly afterward), and compare the outcome of the test to the original hypothesis (can the bird still fly? If it can, your hypothesis has been falsified; if not, your hypothesis has been validated).Allen_MacNeill
October 15, 2006
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Joseph wrote: "I wonder if DR McNeil tells his students that we don’t even know what makes an organism what it is..." No, I must admit that I do not tell them that. Instead, I assign them Sean Carroll's new book, Endless Forms Most Beautiful, and we spend a few weeks talking about precisely what Joseph seems to think we know nothing about: how a unicellular zygote becomes a multicellular animal. And no, we don't throw up our hands and say "It's a mystery about which we know nothing." Nope, we do our level best to figure it out, using the tools that experience has shown will serve best for that process: empirical investigation combined with rigorous statistical (and sometimes mathematical) analysis. That's how real science is done.Allen_MacNeill
October 15, 2006
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