Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

‘The ID Files’, Interviews with Salvador Cordova, Michael Behe and more …

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SciPhi guy Jason Renie has put up a free online Audiobook, actually a set of four interviews with proponents and detractors of ID. The other two Interviews are with Michael Shermer and Nick Matzke. Go here.

Comments I just posted at the site:

“First let me applaud Jason Rennie for some interesting dialogues. In his opening remarks, his pro ID perspective shows, but in the interviews he remained largely neutral. That kind of interview approach works well in this type of controversy, where emotions run high. Personally, if it were I interviewing Michael Shermer, I fear I would have become unrestrained, and challenged him on many of the points he made. But for this kind of objective comparison, Rennie’s approach is best.

Rennie’s question to Shermer of, “what sort of a skeptic are you?”, followed by “Are you skeptical to all claims to knowledge? revealed Rennie’s unfamiliarity of the term with regard to it being a label for atheists, and it left Shermer speechless for a moment, as he splurted out, ” … no, of course not, heh heh.” They went on to have an interesting dialogue.

Salvador Cordova’s points were well made, and his historical narrative well presented, as was his take on the difficult religious issue that permeate the controversy. He well knows this from person experience, according to some of his writings on the subject. He talked about his ‘IDEA’ campus involvement. He answered well questions regarding the basic precepts of design, and why it qualifies as science.

Michael Behe’s defenses of ID, and specifically IC were well presented, and granted, he’s had a lot of practice with those issues. Darwin’s Black Box was discussed, and the weighty question of the reasons why ID is valid science. I especially liked the challenge to scientific relevance, where scientists “use their own intelligence to push things along a pathway that they think might be beneficial.” He cited examples of this throughout science. I might add, that kind of subjectivism is common in all realms of human endeavors, everything from selling you some product, to making the case for war. Behe’s arguments for evidence of design, and the defense of complexity arguments were persuasive and well proffered.

Finally, Nick Matzke’s discourse on ID and evolution was interesting, as well as a brief chronicle of his Dover involvement. I detected in Nick an openness to the question of ID if ‘only’ there could be a valid means of testing for it. He implied more than once that he did not disavow the existence of a creator, just that it had no place in science. They even got into a discourse over a Star Trek episode.

So there you have it. It’s well worth taking the time to play these clips.” The clips:

Comments
Salvador, you are welcome to contact anybody who is interested and relevantly qualified.Jason Rennie
February 9, 2007
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Ken Ham to get the YEC POV
There is more than one YEC POV (Point of View). Not every creationist is enamored with Ken Ham or Kent Hovind (sheesh!). Ham and Sarfati go around denigrating Christians who in good conscience believe the Universe is old. I don't think that is right. Ham and Sarfati argue for the Intelligent Design of life by saying "it's true because the Bible says so." But even Jesus, when realizing the doubting nature of men did not use such a line of argumentation in John 10:38. There is a stigma thae YECs have to live with because of the style of AiG's "apologetic". See how YECs are typically perceived because of AiG's style of apologetic: Billy the Creationist. Such an image has dragged down both the creation science movement and the ID movement. Such an apologetic dishonors the very cause YECs try to defend. Walter Brown or Barry Setterfield would be a finer reprsentative of the YEC POV! And if Jason is interested, I'll try to contact Walt.scordova
February 9, 2007
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"OOh! I just thought of something: if you’re working on a second edition, why not interview someone like Ken Ham to get the YEC POV? (unless you think that would confuse matters too much)." Mainly because he isn't really relevantly qualified. However I am working on getting someone from AiG on for an interview and have a contact inside the organisation. Also Salvador is a YEC and he is coming back.Jason Rennie
February 9, 2007
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OOh! I just thought of something: if you're working on a second edition, why not interview someone like Ken Ham to get the YEC POV? (unless you think that would confuse matters too much).jb
February 9, 2007
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Jason, I don't want to beat up on you about the point that TroutMac brought up, but I think it is incorrect to state that AiG stands in opposition to ID. I understand your point, however, that your wording to that effect in the audio was simply inentional hyperbole to make a point. And of course the point you were making (creationism /= ID) is an important one. Understood and appreciated. However, I think it is important to point out that Creationist groups, and even AiG in particular do not so much oppose ID, as they see ID being pointed in the right direction but not going far enough. From the AiG web site: "AiG supports the ID movement’s efforts to promote academic freedom and to question evolution. When we call into question (hopefully with humility) aspects of their strategy, we do so not to seek to undermine or oppose their efforts, but to encourage careful thinking by all concerned believers (including ourselves) concerning the ways to achieve the most good, and to give most honor and glory to God." "Our friends in the IDM will hopefully understand that when we discuss these problems and issues, we do so not to discourage or obstruct, but simply to make it clear where we are coming from, why we do so, and why we neither count ourselves a part of this movement nor campaign against it." http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2002/0830_IDM.asp They also say that "AiG has never supported compulsion to teach creation." Moreover it seems while it might be correct to state that AiG wants to distance itself to some extent from ID (as does ID from pure YEC), they don't necessarily stand in opposition. As an aside, you'll find that AiG carries Behe's "Darwin's Black Box" in their online store, something which they probably wouldn't do if they stood in opposition to ID (yes some organizations carry material from the opposing point of view, but THEY generally don't): http://www.answersingenesis.org/PublicStore/product/Darwins-Black-Box,4608,226.aspx (They likely carry other ID literature as well, but I didn't do an exhaustive search). I am not in any way affiliated with AiG, BTW, but I am familiar with them and bring them specifically up because you did. As for myself (just so you know where I'm coming from), although I have been raised in a Christian, YEC background, I am at the moment in the process of "auditing" my beliefs to see if they stand up to scrutiny (and I have NO scientific background other than Computer Science, so that makes it harder). So while I have YEC sympathies, at this point I'm more in a state of suspended judgement about the matter. But I think its important to be fair in representing the views the various parties have. As I said, I don't say this to beat up on you, but simply to give you more material to synthesize into your knowledgebase. I really appreciated the interviews and found them very interesting. And, as the others have commented, you came across as being very fair and even-handed to both parties, while at the same time not hiding your sympathies. There is a lot to be said for that. (BTW, I also enjoyed your interview with Alvin Plantinga a while back; only complaint is that it wasn't longer. :)jb
February 9, 2007
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Thank you, Jason. I appreciate your explanation. Personally, I view ID ultimately as vindication of creationism. Of course, I realize that in the abstract it doesn't have to vindicate creationism, and ID certainly cannot vindicate a young Earth OR an old Earth position because WHEN the Earth, or the universe, was design is irrelevant as I'm sure you know. While ID doesn't HAVE to vindicate creationism, I think all ID proponents ought to recognize the possibility that it COULD. That perhaps, just perhaps, creationism is true and that ID reveals that. I don't believe this is the same as saying ID equals creationism, of course. And I fully understand that there are non-Christian ID proponents. My point is that if creationism were true, we would certainly expect to find evidence of design. Thanks again.TRoutMac
February 8, 2007
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"I’m listening right now, and I was struck by Rennie’s claim that young-Earth creationists are “as opposed to ID proponents as anybody on the pro-Darwin side.”" I had in mind the way groups like AiG seem to try to distance themselves from ID as an idea. Sorry I guess it was a bit of a blanket statement. I was mainly trying to bring out the idea that there is actually a significant distinction between "ID" and "Creationism" (specifically YEC, which is what most people think ok when they hear the term). Although they overlap, to paint one as the "stealth arm" of the other is just so wrong.Jason Rennie
February 8, 2007
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I'm listening right now, and I was struck by Rennie's claim that young-Earth creationists are "as opposed to ID proponents as anybody on the pro-Darwin side." I just listened to it again, and there IS a qualification that might get him "off the hook" because he says "young-Earth creationists that want a literal translation of genesis taught in public schools" (or words very close to that) and okay, I believe in a literal translation of Genesis, that God created the Earth in six days and although I don't accept that there's any way to prove the age of the Earth via empirical means one way or the other, I do tend strongly to accept the young-Earth view. And yet I could hardly be described as being opposed to Intelligent Design in any shape matter or form. I'm fascinated by it and I'm encouraged by it. While many ID proponents may in fact accept the old-Earth paradigm, I don't hold that against them. I disagree, and I have questions as to why they're so convinced of an old Earth, but I don't hold it against them. So, I'm wondering what Rennie is referring to here. Am I that unusual? I know quite a few YECs who are just as enthusiastic about ID as I am. Maybe the "escape hatch" is simply the fact that I don't advocate that a literal interpretation of Genesis be taught in public schools--at least not as a scientific account of origins--and I guess that given that qualification, Rennie's statement doesn't apply to me. I would like to see, however, ID taught in public schools and not "down the hall" in philosophy, either. Teach in Biology class… I don't see why not. I'd sooner think that ID proponents have greater difficulties with YECs than YECs do with ID proponents. Anyway, that was a surprising statement and at least in my periphery, it doesn't appear to ring true.TRoutMac
February 8, 2007
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Thanks for the kind words Lee Bowman. Thanks also to Jason Rennie for his hard work and for giving me an opportunity to appear on his show. I think the ID community will do well to be in the public eye more often. I think Internet YouTube Interviews ought to be frequent thing. Salscordova
February 8, 2007
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I hope everybody enjoys the interviews. I'm working on a second edition at the moment if anybody would like to contribute an interview or suggested interviews. I can be reached at thesciphishow@gmail.com Also, I have an interview with Dr Sober lined up, so if you have any suggestions for questions, by all means shoot me an email.Jason Rennie
February 8, 2007
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I have tried to read the paper but at a certain point I was really discouraged. I can't understand what this guy Sober means. Take, for instance, the following passage: "Popper’s idea has much in common with Ronald Fisher’s test of significance (Fisher 1959). According to Fisher, if H says that an observation O is very improbable, and O occurs, then a disjunction is true—either H is false or something very improbable has occurred. The disjunction does follow, but it does not follow that H is false, nor does it follow that we should reject H. As many statisticians and philosophers of science have recognized (Hacking 1965; Edwards 1972; Royall 1997), perfectly plausible hypotheses often say that the observations have low probability. This is especially common when a probabilistic hypothesis addresses a large body of data. If we make a large number of observations, it may turn out that H confers on each observation a high probability, although H confers on the conjunction of observations a tiny probability. If Fisher’s test of significance fails to provide a criterion for when hypotheses should be rejected, it also fails to describe when a hypothesis is falsifiable. Perhaps Popper’s f-word should be dropped." Now, even if we accept that to criticize ID one starts dropping Popper with a few words (and I really don't accept that, because with all possible reservations, still I think Popper is a great thinker, while I am not sure the same is necessarily true of Sober), I am really amazed at the utterly superficial treatment in that passage of probability theory, and in particular of the Fisherian approach. Although the confrontation between Fisherian and Bayesian thinkers is certainly fascinating (and certainly deeper than Sober's approximate summary), one should remember that practically everything in biology and medicine is tested by a fisherian approach, against a null hypothesis, and on the basis of a conventional "improbability" level (usually at least 0.05). So I can't understand why we should be fisherians in practically everything we do in biomedical sciences, and then quickly dismiss the fisherian approach for bayesian purity as soon as we want to dismiss ID. We could as well dismiss all medical knowledge at the same time. So, I don't think Mr. Sober really deserves our attention. I can't find anything interesting or realistic in his approach, and I hope that, after our dropping of Popper and Fisher and similar guys, he may not be the only alternative left.gpuccio
February 8, 2007
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Ezra, I just read the article by Sober and it makes only trivial objections to ID having to do with some philosophy of science arguments and frequently use misleading statements. I find his arguments meaningless and irrelevant. I am willing to discuss this a lot more but this thread is about the audio interviews of four people. Maybe someone else will want to post a thread on this topic and there are certainly many more qualified than I that could discuss the philosophy of science issues and Sober's rhetoric and distortions.jerry
February 8, 2007
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I made a mistake and it is Lee Bowman and not Sal who started the thread.jerry
February 8, 2007
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Ezra, The link did not work for me but the following gets to his personal page http://philosophy.wisc.edu/sober/papers.htm which has the paper which I will shortly read. Sal should determine if he wants us to discuss this paper here.jerry
February 8, 2007
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Dear UD, I'd appreciate some of your perceptive commentary on the following recently-published paper: http://philosophy.wisc.edu/sober/what's%20wrong%20with%20id%20qrb%202007.pdf It's by Elliot Sober, in Philosophy of Biology. Thoughts?ezra
February 8, 2007
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Cheers 4 that link. I should point out that these interviews are all available as MP3s. I have listed them below such that you can copy and paste the following text directly on to any websites you find out there in cyberspace! 1. Introduction to the book http://www.podiobooks.com/sample/50548/PB-IDInterviews-01.mp3 2. Interview with Michael Shermer of the Skeptic Society and author of "Why Darwin Matters" http://www.podiobooks.com/sample/50549/PB-IDInterviews-02.mp3 3. Interview with Salvador Cordova of the IDEA Centre http://www.podiobooks.com/sample/50550/PB-IDInterviews-03.mp3 4. Interview with Biochemist Dr. Mike Behe of Lehigh University and author of "Darwin's Black Box." http://www.podiobooks.com/sample/50551/PB-IDInterviews-04.mp3 5. Interview with Nick Matzke of the National Centre for Science Education http://www.podiobooks.com/sample/50552/PB-IDInterviews-05.mp3 6. Epilogue http://www.podiobooks.com/sample/50553/PB-IDInterviews-06.mp3Robo
February 8, 2007
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I thought it was interesting that Michael Shermer appeared to have never heard of Mike Gene or "Front-Loading."jb
February 8, 2007
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