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Tourbillon

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William Paley published Natural Theology: or, Evidences of the Existence and Attributes of the Deity, Collected from the Appearances of Nature in 1802. In 1801, Abraham Louis Breguet, called the “watchmaker of kings and the king of watchmakers,” patented a watch mechanism called the Tourbillon, which is French for “whirlwind,” revolutionizing watchmaking. The tourbillon has approximately 100 parts, and weighs only 0.296 grams.

Among the many Breguet clients have been folks such as Marie Antoinette, Napoleon Bonaparte, Sir Winston Churchill, and George Washington.    

William Paley considered the conclusion of Design appropriate if one had stumbled upon a watch in the woods and wondered of its origin:

In crossing a heath, suppose I pitched my foot against a stone, and were asked how the stone came to be there; I might possibly answer, that, for anything I knew to the contrary, it had lain there forever: nor would it perhaps be very easy to show the absurdity of this answer. But suppose I had found a watch upon the ground, and it should be inquired how the watch happened to be in that place; I should hardly think of the answer I had before given, that for anything I knew, the watch might have always been there…Every indication of contrivance, every manifestation of design, which existed in the watch, exists in the works of nature; with the difference, on the side of nature, of being greater or more, and that in a degree which exceeds all computation.

And of course he was right. Microbiology has confirmed that the cell is much, much more complicated than even the tourbillon, and on a much smaller, nano-technological scale. A modern formulation of the argument, given what we know of microbiology and the complexity of the cell, could be:

But suppose I had found a cell upon the ground, and it should be inquired how the cell happened to be in that place; I should hardly think of the answer I had before given, that for anything I knew, the cell might have always been there.

Paley also claimed that something might come to be known about the intentionality of the Watchmaker by his design:

. .when we come to inspect the watch, we perceive. . . that its several parts are framed and put together for a purpose, e.g. that they are so formed and adjusted as to produce motion, and that motion so regulated as to point out the hour of the day; that if the different parts had been differently shaped from what they are, or placed after any other manner or in any other order than that in which they are placed, either no motion at all would have been carried on in the machine, or none which would have answered the use that is now served by it. . . . the inference we think is inevitable, that the watch must have had a maker — that there must have existed, at some time and at some place or other, an artificer or artificers who formed it for the purpose which we find it actually to answer, who comprehended its construction and designed its use.

The watchmaker theme is also put forward by Richard Dawkins with his 1986 book The Blind Watchmaker. The concept of a “blind watchmaker” is intended to illustrate how complexity is brought about from a step-wise evolutionary process that didn’t have the complexity as a goal.  Those familiar with the complexity of watches will not believe that they can be brought about blindly, as, hopefully, this video illustrates. This watch has a tourbillon escapement. Who would like to venture the inference that this watch was constructed blindly?

Comments
"The trouble is you have not defined “complex” with rigour" We have been using the idea of complexity for quite awhile and we generally understand it enough to have a meaningful discussion. Complexity in the sense we use it here is one where functionality flows from complex entities. A rock found on a hillside is complex and it would take a huge data set to describe the rock completely but the complexity of the rock has no function. The elements of the cell is also complex but the parts interact to produce function. There is organized complexity, an example is the cell, where the parts interact to produce function. There are tens of thousands of interacting parts. The watch is also an example of organized complexity. There is irreducible complexity, an example is the flagellum, where the overall entity has function but the removal of one of the parts eliminates function. There is functional complex specified information where a complex array of information specifies a function in some other entity. The obvious example we use here is the DNA transcription and translation processes leading to proteins and the transcription process leading to functional RNA polymers; computer programming and language are other examples of functional complex specified information. There may be more rigorous definitions than what I said here but these are good enough to base discussions. Things like clouds, thunder storms, the center of the earth and rocks may have complexity but do not lead to function. They have consequences but not functional ones. To get some feel for this, go to Robert Hazen's page on complexity. Hazen is a leading researcher in the search for the origin of life. http://hazen.ciw.edu/research/complexity Another source is Abel's paper which is a very complex discussion of complexity The Capabilities of Chaos and Complexity; Int. J. Mol. Sci. 2009, 10, 247-291 http://www.mdpi.com/1422-0067/10/1/247 Here is the essence of the Abel paper which is interested in the origin of life: "The theme of this paper is the active pursuit of falsification of the following null hypothesis:“Physicodynamics alone cannot organize itself into formally functional systems requiring algorithmic optimization, computational halting, and circuit integration.” At first glance the falsification of this hypothesis might seem like a daunting task. But a single exception of non trivial, unaided, spontaneous optimization of formal function by truly natural process would quickly falsify this null hypothesis"jerry
June 16, 2009
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PaulN (76), "I’ve seen plenty of examples in nature where deformities make survival more difficult, but don’t render the individual useless, such is the case of the famed sickle cell anemia. A crippled life does not rule out reproduction by any means, especially when Darwinian life revolves around instinctually surviving and reproducing at all costs." I'm afraid you miss the point yet again - the point about sickle cell anaemia is that, unfortunate disease though it is, it actually has a survival advantage in areas where malaria occurs because the blood cell deformity that results in anaemia also makes infection more difficult. You need to abandon YEC and do more science.Gaz
June 16, 2009
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Clive Hayde (63), "I meant sense as in common sense." It still applies. A fair bit of science frustrates common sense. Even classical science can be counterintuitive - for example, if the space shuttle is flying towards the space station and needs to catch up, in which direction should it fire its thrusters?Gaz
June 16, 2009
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SETI is relevant to the ID question because if there is intelligent life elsewhere, then this could be the origin of the designs we see in life here. Even Richard Dawkins considers it a real option. So if SETI has made it into the journals and represents a possibility for intelligent life elsewhere, then why is not considered a possibility for life here. As I said Dawkins admitted it was a possibility.jerry
June 16, 2009
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PaulN
How soon after the Earth’s formation 4.54 billion years ago would the appearance of life need to be, in order to convince you that it was the product of an intelligent plan?
Is there a timeline? How long would it have to be before you were convinced that it was not the produce of an intelligent plan? As presumably you leave yourself open to the notion that you are wrong, and have thought about these issues? And another question then. The earth is much younger then the universe. Why did your "designer" wait such a very long time before creating the earth?Echidna.Levy
June 16, 2009
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vjortly
If even the simplest viable cell turns out to be orders of magnitude more complex than a von Neumann probe, then shouldn’t we conclude that the cell was designed too?
Would you say that the interior of the earth was orders of magnitude more complex then the cell? How about a cloud 1km in size? The arrangement of sand on the beach? The trouble is you have not defined "complex" with rigour. Do that and perhaps your argument will make sense.Echidna.Levy
June 16, 2009
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PaulN
Once you’ve thoroughly evaluated the rigors of his research then you might be in a position to write his ideas off with such an off-handed assertion.
It's not me that has written his ideas off. It's the entire scientific community. And it's obvious that Sanford already knows it, or he would have published this work in a venue where it might have had some impact - a peer reviewed journal for example. Then again, when you are making your case with the use of scripture it's not surprising you won't even attempt to get it published anywhere other then a book. No actual serious scientific journal would publish genome related work backed up by using scripture as evidence!Echidna.Levy
June 16, 2009
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A few comments. 1. Von Neumann machines I think these are the machines we should be talking about, if we want a good Paleyan analogy for the complexity of the cell. What's a von Neumann machine? Basically, it's an (as yet theoretical) machine which can create replicas of itself. The idea of a self-replicating machine was first suggested by John von Neumann in the 1940s. Then physicist Frank Tipler suggested in 1980 that a von Neumann machine could be made into a space probe, which would seek out a solar system likely to have the resources to enable it to replicate itself, and then travel there and make a copy of itself. Given sufficient processing power to be considered intelligent and a sufficient density of planetary systems, Tipler reasoned that an alien civilization capable of sending up spaceships traveling at 90% of the speed of light could colonize the galaxy over a period of half a million years. This idea of using von Neumann machines to explore the galaxy was discussed by astronomers in journals, as far back as 1980. Here's a link, in response to Jerry's request for SETI papers: http://www.rfreitas.com/Astro/ComparisonReproNov1980.htm (Valdes, F. and Freitas, R. A., Jr., 1980. Comparison of reproducing and nonreproducing starprobe strategies for galactic exploration, JBIS 33, 402-406. Note: The Web version is derived from an earlier draft of the paper and may possibly differ in some substantial aspects from the final published paper.) (Frank Tipler's provocative paper, "Extraterrestrial beings do not exist" can be found in Royal Astronomical Society, Quarterly Journal, vol. 21, Sept. 1980, p. 267-281. Web address: http://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/nph-iarticle_query?1980QJRAS..21..267T&data_type=PDF_HIGH&whole_paper=YES&type=PRINTER&filetype=.pdf ) OK. Where to from here? Here's my challenge to the skeptics. If you came across a von Neumann probe while walking in the woods, what would you conclude? I think this is a fair question to ask. Some contributors (djmullen, Lenoxus and PaulBurnett) have pointed out that watches and tourbillons can't reproduce, while cells can, so the original Paleyan analogy isn't perfect. Well, von Neumann machines can reproduce, by definition. And von Neumann machines bear out Paley's insight that it's much harder to build a machine that can replicate itself than it is to build a watch or a tourbillon, which cannot do so. After all, we've been able to design watches and tourbillions for hundreds of years, but no-one has built a von Neumann machine yet - let alone a von Neumann probe. Now here's my follow-up question. If even the simplest viable cell turns out to be orders of magnitude more complex than a von Neumann probe, then shouldn't we conclude that the cell was designed too? 2. The Deep Time objection Some contributors have suggested that given enough time, nature can build anything we can, and more. For instance, djmullen (#3) wrote:
The products of design are invariably simple things compared to products of evolution.
This elicited my incredulous question (#23):
Whoa. Are you seriously suggesting that blind, senseless nature is somehow smarter than we are?”
In reply, PaulBurnett (#31) wrote:
Working for billions of years; using billions of cubic miles of atmosphere / hydrosphere as a "laboratory" whilst operating at an invisibly small molecular level; with energy inputs from sun / vulcanism / lightning / meteors / tides / cosmic and other radiation / et cetera - evolution's answer to your question is "Yes."
Reading this, I'm amazed and saddened. Materialistic atheists must really have a low opinion of human intelligence - and indeed of intelligence in general. They seriously believe that an undirected process can, given enough time, duplicate the results of any intelligent activity. Which prompts me to ask them: what's so good about being intelligent, then? The only answer I can imagine them giving is: "Speed. It's not that intelligence enables you to accomplish anything special that an undirected process could not; it's just that intelligence enables you to do it faster. That's why it's a survival advantage. When you're in a jam, you can think your way out of trouble, fast." If they're right, then even my discovery of a von Neumann probe in the woods would not constitute proof of design, unless I were sure that it had arrived there very recently - e.g. yesterday. For according to their way of thinking, natural processes might be able to create such a probe, given enough time. So here's my second challenge to the atheists: How fast would the von Neumann probe's self-assembly process need to be, in order to convince you that it was the product of an intelligent plan? Which prompts me to ask my final question: How soon after the Earth's formation 4.54 billion years ago would the appearance of life need to be, in order to convince you that it was the product of an intelligent plan?vjtorley
June 15, 2009
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Thanks herb, I agree completely. The last place I would want to be alienated from is the ID camp, as there are few places for us YECers to respectfully exchange ideas in the first place. I would surely hope that the ID camp would not chop off that leg just to gain a step up in credibility with the opposition, as credibility shouldn't take precedence over sound logic and reason of well researched ideas.PaulN
June 15, 2009
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PaulN,
You should familiarize yourself with this man [John C. Sanford]
Thanks for providing those links. There has been some discussion here lately about what stance the ID movement should take toward young-earth creationists. I think it would be a great mistake for ID to abandon the "big tent" philosophy, precisely because of YEC's such as Dr. Sanford. Just my 2¢.herb
June 15, 2009
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Besides, SETI is a mission to discover life elsewhere, not to explain life here. They’ll publish if/when they actually find that life. IDists on the other hand are surrounded by the living objects that they claim are the handiwork of the designer.
exactly. IDers claim to have already discovered signals analogous to what SETI researchers are looking for, but show no interest in finding out anything about the source of those signals. don't you think that would be the first thing SETI researchers would do? makes you wonder if ID people believe their own "findings".Khan
June 15, 2009
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Also you'll find a comprehensive review of the book made by the most recent reviewer in the amazon link above, at least you'll have a better idea of his research if you care to bother.PaulN
June 15, 2009
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Echidna @42,
I think your understanding is incomplete.
I think yours is too wishful and unrealistic.
For example, such a “gradually sprouting leg” takes energy to create. It has physical consequences for the organism. If the organism came from an egg originally then perhaps (just a “wild guess) the leg would cause the egg to break prematurely. I could go on. It’s siblings without such additions would outcompete it every time.
What? So how do you suppose limbs formed in the first place, and why do they happen to be so strategically placed as to allow for optimal locomotion and transportation? Are you proposing that this happened all in one shot or would you imagine many failed intermediates along the way ridden with unnecessary and abstract structures? Or are you saying that a trial and error process such as Darwinian evolution leaves no evidence of the errors in the fossil record? I think you take for granted what's required for fully functional quadripedal/bipedal locomotion, including joints, balance, proportionality, and nervous system that must all be in place simultaneously for proper movement. I also think you're much too hopeful as to what large accumulations of mutation account for in reality. Also where do you get the idea that deformities that don't immediately affect survival would easily be outcompeted? I've seen plenty of examples in nature where deformities make survival more difficult, but don't render the individual useless, such is the case of the famed sickle cell anemia. A crippled life does not rule out reproduction by any means, especially when Darwinian life revolves around instinctually surviving and reproducing at all costs. Also consider the ostrich tribe in Africa.
My point is that for you to even suggest such a thing indicates to me that your understanding of the theory you presume to criticize is sadly lacking.
What it should indicate to you is that my understanding of the theory is based in reality, where the tell-tale signs of trial and error processes are completely evident.
Given what you’ve suggested about I’m not surprised you believe this.
*sigh* You should familiarize yourself with this man and his book and furthermore the discussions here and here. Once you've thoroughly evaluated the rigors of his research then you might be in a position to write his ideas off with such an off-handed assertion. This goes for you as well derwood @58, perhaps then you'll learn that his studies are in fact complimentary consistent with Behe's. The notion that beneficial mutations don't occur is a strawman, as Dr. Sanford himself acknowledges. I'm glad I'm beginning to forget what it's like to be in your position of arrogance.PaulN
June 15, 2009
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Clive Hayden (#72) wrote: "The whole of nature is as laboratory as the wind through the trees is a restaurant." Very Zen. Exactly - you understand. Many thousands of different species have evolved to dine in the restaurant-laboratories in the canopies of the world's forests (and others on them) - some of them indeed brought on the wind. And so it goes. That's quite poetic, actually. Flesh that thought out and we could call it "The Jungle Book" or "Just So Stories."PaulBurnett
June 15, 2009
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Jerry said:
Has SETI made it to any scientific journals?
I'm not sure, but if the answer is "no", it's likely because they're looking for intelligence where there likely is none. (I note parenthetically a similarity to ID in this regard.) Besides, SETI is a mission to discover life elsewhere, not to explain life here. They'll publish if/when they actually find that life. IDists on the other hand are surrounded by the living objects that they claim are the handiwork of the designer. And yet they still have no research program and no peer-reviewed results. Of course, how could they? ID makes no useful novel predictions, and it encourages scientists to just shrug their shoulders and say "it must have been designed" instead of doing any real research.Tajimas D
June 15, 2009
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Hi Jerry,
Has SETI made it to any scientific journals?
Why are we discussing SETI? I'm asking questions about Intelligent Design. When Intelligent Design advocates can't answer questions about their own belief systems - short of one-sentence jabs, like:
Did you test that reasoning in a lab before you wrote it?
- then it's fairly obvious that Intelligent Design is in deep water.RDK
June 15, 2009
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PaulBurnett, ------"All of nature is constantly working or operating or churning or stirring the pot of raw materials and energy: The tides rise and fall; tectonic plates move differentially leading to earthquakes or vulcanism; ionizing radiation in rocks and minerals and cosmic rays makes its energy contribution; sunlight cooks and evaporates and concentrates. The whole of nature is a seething laboratory." The whole of nature is as laboratory as the wind through the trees is a restaurant.Clive Hayden
June 15, 2009
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"When you garner compelling evidence of this intelligent “seeding” of life on Earth and submit it to a scientific journal - and I mean a proper scientific journal, not a theological magazine - I’ll concede your point." Has SETI made it to any scientific journals?jerry
June 15, 2009
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The cell was not really understood till the 1830's. Single celled organisms were discovered by Antonie van Leeuwenhoek and Hooke discovered that cork was made up of small compartment like divisions which he named cells after monk's cells. No one did much with it till the 1820's or 1830's and cell division was not understood till the late 1850's at the time of Darwin's OOS.jerry
June 15, 2009
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RDK, ------"The essence of science is in putting things to empirical tests, rather than merely reasoning a priori." Did you test that reasoning in a lab before you wrote it?Clive Hayden
June 15, 2009
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Compare your comment with: “We can’t ’see’ a biological designer, therefore life ‘must have’ developed by itself”. Phrase of the day: Out of sight is not out of Mind.
When you garner compelling evidence of this intelligent "seeding" of life on Earth and submit it to a scientific journal - and I mean a proper scientific journal, not a theological magazine - I'll concede your point. All you have to do is show where the intelligent designer interfered in an otherwise seemingly natural process. You don't even have to name the designer, which I know you'll be hesitant to do. We don't want to upset the other members of the Tent, do we? Let me break it down for you. In science, one uses logic, deduction, and reason to come up with a good hypothesis. Then that hypothesis is tested empirically. If the experiments do not match up, then you are wrong. The essence of science is in putting things to empirical tests, rather than merely reasoning a priori. Tell me: other than pure speculation, obfuscatory mathematical equations that have nothing to do with biology, and manufactured awe about the complexity of life, what observations, tests, and research has the Intelligent Design camp provided on the details of the designer? About the origins of life? What does ID contribute to science?RDK
June 15, 2009
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RDK @62, Compare your comment with: "We can't 'see' a biological designer, therefore life 'must have' developed by itself". Phrase of the day: Out of sight is not out of Mind.Oramus
June 15, 2009
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N0. 14 should read "MCS developing into an MCO. There are several thresholds I'm sure to get from MCS to MCO but 23 thresholds so far I think can make the point pretty well.Oramus
June 15, 2009
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derwood, not only is there no step-wise explanation of subcellular componenets, there is no explanation for numerous biological thresholds: 1. subcomponents creating a inter-component communication mechanism. 2. subcomponents creating a cell membrane 3. cell developing a catalytic mechanism. 4. cell developing a sensory mechanism. 5. cell developing a locomotion mechanism. 6. cell developing a self-maintenence mechanism. 7. cell developing a reproductive mechanism. 8. cells combining to form a multicellular structure (MCS). 9. MCS developing an inter-cellular communication system. 10. MCS developing a catalytic mechanism. 11. MCS developing a sensory mechanism. 12. MCS developing a locomotion mechanism. 13. MCS developing a self-maintenence mechanism. 14. MCS developing an 15. MCO developing a digestive system. 16. MCO developing a sensory system. 17. MCO developing a reproductive system. 18. MCO developing a locomotion system 19. MCO developing a self-maintencence system. 20. MCO diverging into two distinct, separate MCOs. 21. First MCOs developing sexual reproductive systems. 22. First MCOs developing competitive traits. 23. MCOs developing a defensive system. I am sure I missed many thresholds. Maybe other posters can add to the list. But I think its suffice to say that yeah, if we are required to 'show' the designer, then it isn't too much to ask that you 'show' us step-wise development using fortuitous mutations. On the other hand, if you drop your demand to 'see' the designer, we'll drop our demand to 'see' step-wise development with beneficial mutations. Then we can all proceed to argue our cases based on the logical consequences of observed phenomena.
And so as there is no ’step-by-step’ explanation for the appearance of all subcellular structures today, the correct and logical answer is that some disembodied ultra-Intelligence was behind it all? That seems reasonable.
Oramus
June 15, 2009
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ScottAndrews (#38) wrote: "Nature is smart, it’s working, it operates, it has a laboratory - are you saying that nature is intelligent? What is this entity you call “nature?”" I don't think I ever said "nature" is smart or intelligent. Nature (the natural physical world) is more of an infinitely patient idiot tinkerer than an intelligent designer (a "blind watchmaker" to use somebody else's term). Whatever works, works - whatever doesn't work falls out of the gene pool. All of nature is constantly working or operating or churning or stirring the pot of raw materials and energy: The tides rise and fall; tectonic plates move differentially leading to earthquakes or vulcanism; ionizing radiation in rocks and minerals and cosmic rays makes its energy contribution; sunlight cooks and evaporates and concentrates. The whole of nature is a seething laboratory.PaulBurnett
June 15, 2009
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Gaz, ------"On your point about taking things for granted, like sense, I’m afraid science has amply demonstrated that the senses that humans have evolved aren’t always best suited for an intuitive feeling for the way the universe works - relativity and quantum mechanics being obvious cases, and in many cases such as yours humans are also unable to avoid seeing deliberate design even where there was none." I meant sense as in common sense.Clive Hayden
June 15, 2009
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I've always wondered why ID proponents seem to think that that argument has some sort of special merit to it. The complexity of life found today is much greater than the product of any intelligence we know of....therefore intelligence must have created it? Doesn't follow.RDK
June 15, 2009
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And so as there is no ’step-by-step’ explanation for the appearance of all subcellular structures today, the correct and logical answer is that some disembodied ultra-Intelligence was behind it all?
That's the ID demand.David Kellogg
June 15, 2009
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Clive: The tourbillon is the analogy for the complexity of the cell, which Paley thought complicated beyond the watch, and was right in doing so. The complications within the cell have not been explained by any step-wise process of parts found fossilized in the ground David. And so as there is no 'step-by-step' explanation for the appearance of all subcellular structures today, the correct and logical answer is that some disembodied ultra-Intelligence was behind it all? That seems reasonable.derwood
June 15, 2009
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Clive: So if I had found the proverbial watch on the ground, given your lab above, I should think it had always been there, complete with the tourbillon and all complications. Seems reasonable It would be reasonable to conclude that if you find a watch anywhere that a human made it because the only things we presently know of in the universe that make watches are humans. Using a human contrivance as an analogy (used as evidence)to non-human intelliegence seems to be a stretch at the very least.derwood
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