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Tourbillon

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William Paley published Natural Theology: or, Evidences of the Existence and Attributes of the Deity, Collected from the Appearances of Nature in 1802. In 1801, Abraham Louis Breguet, called the “watchmaker of kings and the king of watchmakers,” patented a watch mechanism called the Tourbillon, which is French for “whirlwind,” revolutionizing watchmaking. The tourbillon has approximately 100 parts, and weighs only 0.296 grams.

Among the many Breguet clients have been folks such as Marie Antoinette, Napoleon Bonaparte, Sir Winston Churchill, and George Washington.    

William Paley considered the conclusion of Design appropriate if one had stumbled upon a watch in the woods and wondered of its origin:

In crossing a heath, suppose I pitched my foot against a stone, and were asked how the stone came to be there; I might possibly answer, that, for anything I knew to the contrary, it had lain there forever: nor would it perhaps be very easy to show the absurdity of this answer. But suppose I had found a watch upon the ground, and it should be inquired how the watch happened to be in that place; I should hardly think of the answer I had before given, that for anything I knew, the watch might have always been there…Every indication of contrivance, every manifestation of design, which existed in the watch, exists in the works of nature; with the difference, on the side of nature, of being greater or more, and that in a degree which exceeds all computation.

And of course he was right. Microbiology has confirmed that the cell is much, much more complicated than even the tourbillon, and on a much smaller, nano-technological scale. A modern formulation of the argument, given what we know of microbiology and the complexity of the cell, could be:

But suppose I had found a cell upon the ground, and it should be inquired how the cell happened to be in that place; I should hardly think of the answer I had before given, that for anything I knew, the cell might have always been there.

Paley also claimed that something might come to be known about the intentionality of the Watchmaker by his design:

. .when we come to inspect the watch, we perceive. . . that its several parts are framed and put together for a purpose, e.g. that they are so formed and adjusted as to produce motion, and that motion so regulated as to point out the hour of the day; that if the different parts had been differently shaped from what they are, or placed after any other manner or in any other order than that in which they are placed, either no motion at all would have been carried on in the machine, or none which would have answered the use that is now served by it. . . . the inference we think is inevitable, that the watch must have had a maker — that there must have existed, at some time and at some place or other, an artificer or artificers who formed it for the purpose which we find it actually to answer, who comprehended its construction and designed its use.

The watchmaker theme is also put forward by Richard Dawkins with his 1986 book The Blind Watchmaker. The concept of a “blind watchmaker” is intended to illustrate how complexity is brought about from a step-wise evolutionary process that didn’t have the complexity as a goal.  Those familiar with the complexity of watches will not believe that they can be brought about blindly, as, hopefully, this video illustrates. This watch has a tourbillon escapement. Who would like to venture the inference that this watch was constructed blindly?

Comments
Paul N: According to Dr. John C. Sanford, it’s not a creative engine for much at all, other than accumulating errors until they are finally expressed in the form of tragic phenotype catastrophes. Then Dr. John C. Sanford may want to talk to Dr. Lee M. Spetner, who has acknolwedged that beneficial mutations do occur. Dueling Creationists! I love it so. Perhaps Dr. Stephen C. Meyer or Dr. Michael Behe can chat them up and get them to get in line?derwood
June 15, 2009
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Paul: Only, only if you first assume that evolution random variation + natural selection is even capable of producing highly complex and specified nano-systems in reality(In other words not loaded simulations directed towards a desired result). Is there any evidence that these 'nano-systems' were pre-specified? Or do they become specified after the fact?derwood
June 15, 2009
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It's worth noting that Nicholas Wade has a nice article in today's New York Times that synthesizes several advances over the past decade in research on the origins of life.David Kellogg
June 15, 2009
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When I said that Darwin was wrong about the cell being complex it was only in the context of Clives comment
Darwin thought it a slimmy muddy bit
If Darwin thought that, then he was wrong. If he did. Clive?Echidna.Levy
June 15, 2009
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Where does Darwin allegedly say that life is not complex? I'd like to see that.David Kellogg
June 15, 2009
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The argument of the Origin of Species does not depend on the simplicity of the biological cell. In fact, Darwin does not reference the biological cell at all in the Origin: the only reference to cells in that work are to the cells of honey-combs.David Kellogg
June 15, 2009
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Clive Hayden, See the 6 points here at "The design argument": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Hume#The_design_argument On your point about taking things for granted, like sense, I'm afraid science has amply demonstrated that the senses that humans have evolved aren't always best suited for an intuitive feeling for the way the universe works - relativity and quantum mechanics being obvious cases, and in many cases such as yours humans are also unable to avoid seeing deliberate design even where there was none.Gaz
June 15, 2009
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Paley was right about the complexity of life and the cell, Darwin thought it a slimmy muddy bit, he was wrong.
Paley was partially right. The cell is complex. Darwin was wrong about that. He was right about the important things however.
The watch analogy is as proper and correct as it was in 1802 for detecting design.
Except that watches don't reproduce.
The tourbillon, which is rudimentary by comparison to the cell, cannot just appear
We can all agree on that.
or can it be got by successive blind addition.
Can you put "successive blind addition" another way, or give me an example of such a process? What does "successive blind addition" even mean?Echidna.Levy
June 15, 2009
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Clive
It turns out that Paley and I got it right.
Paley published Paley published Natural Theology: or, Evidences of the Existence and Attributes of the Deity, Collected from the Appearances of Nature. Do I take your "I also got it right" to indicate that you also have a similar treatise?Echidna.Levy
June 15, 2009
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Gaz, We can do arguments by assertion all day. I'll be here. Paley was right about the complexity of life and the cell, Darwin thought it a slimmy muddy bit, he was wrong. The watch analogy is as proper and correct as it was in 1802 for detecting design. The tourbillon, which is rudimentary by comparison to the cell, cannot just appear, nor can it be got by successive blind addition. I suppose I take some things for granted, like sense.Clive Hayden
June 15, 2009
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ShawnBoy
Accept it and move on, anti-science degenerates.
Sure, done. Now what SB? Your move...Echidna.Levy
June 15, 2009
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Clive Hayden, No you're not.Gaz
June 15, 2009
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Pretend-scientist Richard Dawkins' <Blind Watchmaker has been refuted. Paley reigns supreme. Accept it and move on, anti-science degenerates.ShawnBoy
June 15, 2009
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Gaz, It turns out that Paley and I got it right.Clive Hayden
June 15, 2009
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Clive Hayden (4) "It turns out that Paley got it right, and Darwin got it wrong." Actually, it turns out that djmullen got it right and you got it wrong. Paley's argument was discredited long before Darwin came on the scene.Gaz
June 15, 2009
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I submitted a comment previously in response to Mr PaulN that hasn't shown up yet. Is it being held in a moderation queue? Sorry to disturb the discussion.Nakashima
June 15, 2009
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PaulN
For example, a leg gradually sprouting out of the back of a raptor that serves no real purpose but also doesn’t prevent the species from surviving and replicating. There are plenty examples to think of that would not be filtered by natural selection.
I think your understanding is incomplete. For example, such a "gradually sprouting leg" takes energy to create. It has physical consequences for the organism. If the organism came from an egg originally then perhaps (just a "wild guess) the leg would cause the egg to break prematurely. I could go on. It's siblings without such additions would outcomplete it every time. My point is that for you to even suggest such a thing indicates to me that your understanding of the theory you presume to criticize is sadly lacking.
a gradual degenerative process such as genetic entropy, given that body plans and genomes were at one point in time better off than they are now, or in other words optimal.
Given what you've suggested about I'm not surprised you believe this.Echidna.Levy
June 15, 2009
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Nature is smart, it’s working, it operates, it has a laboratory - are you saying that nature is intelligent? What is this entity you call “nature?”
What would you say if you found a working fission reactor with about 100 kW of output? Then you found another 14 of them? Would the creator of that be considered intelligent by you?Echidna.Levy
June 15, 2009
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Lenoxus,
From the perspective of evolution, a “failed trial” would be any organism (or pre-living organic compaund) which never reproduced.
Or rather any organism with functions/parts that are a hindrance to its survival, but not necessarily preventative to its reproduction. Somewhat like a bicycle with square wheels in that it can still ultimately serve its purpose, although much less easily.
The thing is, because evolution doesn’t work in saltational legs-in-eyeball jumps (irradiating flies is an obviously extreme situation), the “trials” are not obvious “successes” or “failures”.
My argument is that after enough of these theoretical trials you will eventually have something significant enough for selection to bite into, and for us to work with and observe. And considering the amount of different fully functional body plans we see in nature today, you'd expect to see some obvious significant failures strewn about the fossil record along the way in forms that could ultimately survive and reproduce, granted with some sort of significant abstract variances that don't completely break this ability. For example, a leg gradually sprouting out of the back of a raptor that serves no real purpose but also doesn't prevent the species from surviving and replicating. There are plenty examples to think of that would not be filtered by natural selection.
In fact, I know that I’m one of millions of failed trials in at least one area, because, like most humans, I had wisdom teeth that had to be removed — but a lucky minority of us do not. They’re the “successes”.
Now the main factor here is whether you believe this particular failed trial came about due to a proposed rough creative process such as Darwinian evolution, or is due to a gradual degenerative process such as genetic entropy, given that body plans and genomes were at one point in time better off than they are now, or in other words optimal. I'd say given the actual observed effects of gross accumulations of mutations over time, the latter is more likely to be true. Irradiated flies simulates what would happen to an organism given much more time for alleged "silent" mutations to accumulate.PaulN
June 15, 2009
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Clive
The tourbillon is the analogy for the complexity of the cell, which Paley thought complicated beyond the watch, and was right in doing so.
Nobody can deny that. Of course Paley was right in thinking such.
The complications within the cell have not been explained by any step-wise process of parts found fossilized in the ground David.
Yet did Paley never think "Hey, the problem with this analogy is that Watches don't reproduce"? There are "step-wise process of parts" found in the ground. Each and every one is made up of cells. Sure, zooming down to the level of an invidivual cell leaves you very few fossil parts (perhaps some cytoplasm elements such as chloroplast membranes from cryptoendolith microbial fossils) so we have to work with what we have. And I'm sure that you could not reasonably expect for the first few years of cellular life to be preseved as fossils for us, could you?Echidna.Levy
June 15, 2009
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PaulBurnett:
Working for billions of years; using billions of cubic miles of atmosphere / hydrosphere as a “laboratory” whilst operating at an invisibly small molecular level; with energy inputs from sun / vulcanism / lightning / meteors / tides / cosmic and other radiation / et cetera - evolution’s answer to your question is “Yes.”
Nature is smart, it's working, it operates, it has a laboratory - are you saying that nature is intelligent? What is this entity you call "nature?"ScottAndrews
June 15, 2009
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The tourbillon is the analogy for the complexity of the cell, which Paley thought complicated beyond the watch, and was right in doing so. The complications within the cell have not been explained by any step-wise process of parts found fossilized in the ground David.Clive Hayden
June 15, 2009
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Mapou, Thanks, I agree, it is beautiful.Clive Hayden
June 15, 2009
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Clarification: the Tourbillon watch is a rabbit in the Cambrian only if we think that the watch evolved. Which nobody does.David Kellogg
June 15, 2009
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But you have not found millions of earlier, simpler fossilized proto-Tourbillons in the ground, in earlier layers. We have such a record for biological life. In isolation, your Tourbillon watch is precisely a "rabbit in the Cambrian."David Kellogg
June 15, 2009
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What Lenoxus and PaulBurnett said.David Kellogg
June 15, 2009
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PaulBurnett, ------"Working for billions of years; using billions of cubic miles of atmosphere / hydrosphere as a “laboratory” whilst operating at an invisibly small molecular level; with energy inputs from sun / vulcanism / lightning / meteors / tides / cosmic and other radiation / et cetera - evolution’s answer to your question is “Yes.”" So if I had found the proverbial watch on the ground, given your lab above, I should think it had always been there, complete with the tourbillon and all complications. Seems reasonable :)Clive Hayden
June 15, 2009
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vjtorley (#23) asked: "Whoa. Are you seriously suggesting that blind, senseless nature is somehow smarter than we are?" Working for billions of years; using billions of cubic miles of atmosphere / hydrosphere as a "laboratory" whilst operating at an invisibly small molecular level; with energy inputs from sun / vulcanism / lightning / meteors / tides / cosmic and other radiation / et cetera - evolution's answer to your question is "Yes."PaulBurnett
June 15, 2009
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Once again, I'd like to clarify something: when it comes to the possibility of a supernatural intelligence vastly greater than our own, we're inferring its existence more from philosophy and logical syllogisms than empirical evidence (such as documents recording its interference with nature), no? Otherwise, whenever we talked about "intelligence", we would be stuck with whatever intelligence we actually scientifically know to exist, or at least be comparable to the intelligences we know to exist. (Ourselves, dolphins, yet-to-be-discovered extraterrestrials, maybe computers, etc). vjtorley, responding to djmullen:
Whoa. Are you seriously suggesting that blind, senseless nature is somehow smarter than we are? For that is what your argument implies.
If humans can create life, that's evidence for intelligent design, but if they can't, that's evidence for super-duper intelligent design. PaulN:
Either that or upon finally reaching the target, there would mounds of failed trials as evidence that blind rough forces did in fact create such finely tuned systems.
From the perspective of evolution, a "failed trial" would be any organism (or pre-living organic compaund) which never reproduced. Of course, this is something fossils usually don't tell us, but they certainly don't rule it out. But by "failed trial", you seem to be talking about "trials" at aquiring complex novel features. The thing is, because evolution doesn't work in saltational legs-in-eyeball jumps (irradiating flies is an obviously extreme situation), the "trials" are not obvious "successes" or "failures". Rather, it's entirely possible (though not likely) that you are I are a "failed trial", just one or two otherwise-non-coding genes short of, say, a new type of blood cell or something. (I don't really know enough about the subject to say whether that specific example is plausible or not, but you get the idea). In fact, I know that I'm one of millions of failed trials in at least one area, because, like most humans, I had wisdom teeth that had to be removed — but a lucky minority of us do not. They're the "successes". Of course, that's only possible to see in the hindsight of their existing. As it is, it's hard to imagine what other sort of features we could develop over millions of years that would make our current features seem like "failures", our eyes seem like half-eyes.Lenoxus
June 15, 2009
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RDK, ------"Nobody is purporting that nature is somehow acting as an agency, or with “intelligence” as Paul likes to say. That’s the creationist position." Right....nature doesn't have intentionality or intelligence, but somehow makes things more complicated than we can make things acting with intelligence. Makes perfect sense. And if you'd like a definition of intelligence, one place to start is recognizing complicated things made by intelligence, such as the watch with the tourbillon escapement, and the cell itself, which is much more complex.Clive Hayden
June 15, 2009
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