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Darwin’s peppered myth: Turns out, peppered moths take care to protect themselves

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A Darwin cult (the peppered myth) developed during the twentieth century around the peppered moths, with the recent “resounding triumph” that it turns out that pollution effects do favour dark coloured moths over light coloured ones in the same species, with no important changes.

Whoop whoop. That is all Darwinism can come up with, in real life, after all this time.

But so? Snowbelt effects explain why the Canadian Groundhog Day groundhog is white and the American one is brown. No evolution was ever harmed in the making of the diverting nonsense.

In “Peppered Moths Without Evolution” (July 31, 2012), Creation-Evolution Headlines comments , noting a recent, more detailed study,

Kettlewell and Majerus didn’t take into account the moths’ behavior. They treated moths as passive creatures that would alight on tree trunks at random. They placed the selective power in the environment, with lower contrast producing greater camouflage, leaving the high-contrast moths vulnerable to birds.

The South Korean researchers found, instead, that moth behavior plays a vital role in the camouflage. They “found out that moths are walking on the tree bark until they settle down for resting; the insects seem to actively search for a place and a body position that makes them practically invisible.” A video clip embedded in the article shows the moths doing this.

The article avoids superstitious homage to Darwin as well, apparently. That’s a start  in the right direction.

We always thought that the moth had more interest in protecting its hide than the researchers did, and guess what? But how do the moths know if, when they feel invisible, they really are invisible?

See also: US Darwinists (US ranked 14th) wail over South Korea (ranked 1st), supposedly “not able to compete”

Comments
WD400: The key difference is that offspring from a single mutant would all receive the new allele on a single genetic background. If lots of different moths produced the mutation in would occur on different genetic backgrounds.
Doesn't follow. If lots of moths, who share the same relevant haplotype, produce the same precision insertion due to preprogrammed directed adaptation mechanisms — consistent with Dr. Hunter's proposal — I don't see any problems whatsoever.Origenes
November 25, 2016
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SA, You can read up yourself, but as I said insertion is what TEs do. We don't know enough about these moths to know the rate of insertion per generation, but in other species there can be multiple insertions per generation. In humans it's a little less than one, not much more than the rate of protein coding point mutations. Transposons are so good and getting into and modifying sequences that scientists use them to generate mutations to study gene function: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transposon_mutagenesiswd400
November 25, 2016
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Obviously, it cannot be done. Only your Darwinian assumptions can rule out Dr. Hunter’s scenario
How would you know? Why are you so confident about a subject you know so little about? The key difference is that offspring from a single mutant would all receive the new allele on a single genetic background. If lots of different moths produced the mutation in would occur on different genetic backgrounds. The mutation is still associated with a particular set of genetic variants (that don't cause the phenotype), something that happens when a single mutation is spread through a population more quickly than recombination can connect if to different genetic backgrounds. So it's a single mutation. Hunter's scenario is wrong.wd400
November 25, 2016
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wd400:
Origenes: For clarity: you are claiming that the data only make sense if the insert happened in one single moth. If the insert happened in 10 moths, 100 moths or a thousand moths the data no longer make sense. Do I understand you correctly?
Yes.
How does this data distinguish between the offspring of one single carbonaria moth — the female lays about 2,000 eggs — and multiple carbonaria moths who were exposed to preprogrammed directed adaptation mechanisms (Dr. Hunter's scenario)? Obviously, it cannot be done. Only your Darwinian assumptions can rule out Dr. Hunter's scenario.Origenes
November 25, 2016
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Metamorphosis: The Beauty & Design of Butterflies https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZk6nZGH9Xo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vx4i9Rn4moA&list=PLO673u2zYHhmtTNnZ-nIEV2sO3aMpWO3s&index=1 Brilliant Butterfly Feature Challenges Darwinian Selection by Brian Thomas, M.S. - September 2013 Excerpt: The PNAS study authors wrote, "Morpho butterflies are a brilliant spectacle of nature's capacity for photonic engineering." However, there is no reason—other than sheer bias—to credit nature with engineering butterfly optic structures that even human engineers have not yet been able to replicate. http://www.icr.org/article/7710/ Deciphering butterflies' designer colors: - July 17, 2013 Excerpt: The three tropical butterflies the researchers studied all display iridescence, a property of materials that change color depending on the viewing angle, but they do so with different colors. Papilio ulysses, the Ulysses butterfly or blue mountain swallowtail, appears bluish green when seen from above. Its cousin Papilio peranthus, by contrast, looks yellowish green from above, and a third relative, Papilio blumei, the green swallowtail, is more of a deep green. All three shift toward deep blue when viewed from a sharp angle. To probe the physics behind the wings' structural colorations, the scientists examined a cross-section of each species' wing under a scanning electron microscope. The team found that the wings contain specialized architectures in which solid flat layers known as cuticles alternate with thin "air" layers known as laminae. The laminae aren't entirely empty space, however; they also contain pillars of the cuticle material, which gives the wing a repeating crystal-like structure. This structure is similar to what is known as a Bragg reflector—essentially a multi-layered mirror that reflects only certain wavelengths, or colors, of light. The researchers then measured the light spectrum reflected from the wing at different angles, using a technique called angle-resolved reflection spectroscopy. They found that the varying colors of the three species' wings arise from slight differences in crystal parameters. P. ulysses has seven cuticle layers, for example, while P. peranthus has eight. The thicknesses of the cuticles and air layers also vary between species. Cheah notes that even though these differences are slight, they have a major effect on the butterflies' appearance. "It all comes from the fact the wing structure has subtle differences between these three types of butterfly," he says. http://phys.org/news/2013-07-deciphering-butterflies-hue-changing-materials.html Look at This Incredible Insect Wing Design - Cornelius Hunter - May 17, 2013 Excerpt: And so using this rational, mathematical, approach to biology the researchers were able to do something that consistently eludes evolutionists—produce a successful prediction: "An optimal cell size of a grid-like structure such as the wing can be predicted using the “critical crack length” of the membrane, which is determined by the material’s fracture toughness and the stress applied. … An “optimal” wing cell should have a diameter of around 1132 µm. Is this the case in locust wings? Our results show that the distribution of the wing cell size in locust wings corresponds very well to this prediction, with the most common wing-cell “class” being between 1000 and 1100 µm." http://darwins-god.blogspot.com/2013/05/look-at-this-incredible-insect-wing.html The vein patterns in fruit fly wings never vary by “more than the width of a single cell” - Sept. 18, 2014 Excerpt: Gregor and his colleagues used computer analysis and superimposition to measure and compare wing vein patterns in fruit flies. Even when grown at different temperatures, genetically similar flies had as little variation between two flies’ wings as between the left and right wings of a single fly. And genetically less-similar flies’ wings differed by no more than one cell’s width, suggesting exquisitely precise developmental control over vein patterns. “At every single step, we are at the precision of one half to one cell, so no [additional] error-reducing mechanisms [are] necessary,” says Gregor. If the data hold, it would point to “a remarkable amount of communication between the two sides of the body,” he says. It would mean development is really incredibly precise.” https://uncommondescent.com/biology/the-vein-patterns-in-fruit-fly-wings-never-vary-by-more-than-the-width-of-a-single-cell/
bornagain77
November 25, 2016
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of related note:
butterfly mimicry - images https://www.google.com/search?q=butterfly+mimicry&biw=1351&bih=650&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&sqi=2&ved=0ahUKEwiYyPa8pMTQAhVhjVQKHbEDA2YQ_AUIBigB Problems with evolution of (Butterfly) mimicry “huge” - with picture of leaf mimic butterfly - April 2014 https://uncommondescent.com/evolution/bioscience-2010-problems-with-evolution-of-mimicry-huge/ Bernard d'Abrera on Butterfly Mimicry and the Faith of the Evolutionist - October 5, 2011 Excerpt:  renowned butterfly scholar and photographer Bernard d'Abrera considers the mystery of mimicry.,,, For it to happen in a single species once through chance, is mathematically highly improbable. But when it occurs so often, in so many species, and we are expected to apply mathematical probability yet again, then either mathematics is a useless tool, or we are being criminally blind.,,, Evolutionism (with its two eldest daughters, phylogenetics and cladistics) is the only systematic synthesis in the history of the universe that proposes an Effect without a Final Cause. It is a great fraud, and cannot be taken seriously because it outrageously attempts to defend the philosophically indefensible. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2011/10/in_this_excerpt_from_the051571.html A mural on moth wings Excerpt: It’s the only mimic insect I know that paints an entire scene. It looks like a watercolor. Two red-eyed muscomorph flies feed from fresh bird droppings, complete with light glinting off their wings. I’ve never seen anything like it! http://www.myrmecos.net/2011/08/30/a-mural-on-moth-wings/ Fruit fly with the wings of beauty – July 2012 Excerpt: But a closer examination of the transparent wings of Goniurellia tridens reveals a piece of evolutionary(?) art. Each wing carries a precisely detailed image of an ant-like insect, complete with six legs, two antennae, a head, thorax and tapered abdomen. http://www.thenational.ae/news/uae-news/science/fruit-fly-with-the-wings-of-beauty SEM (scanning electron microscope) of butterfly wings - images https://www.google.com/search?q=SEM+of+butterfly+wings&client=firefox-a&hs=Rov&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=np&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=-oegUtWrJMepyAGyo4D4Aw&ved=0CAkQ_AUoAQ&biw=1280&bih=621 Butterfly wings inspire new high-tech surfaces - November 7, 2012 Excerpt: The researchers wanted to test how butterfly wings and rice leaves might display some of the characteristics of other surfaces they've studied, such as shark skin, which is covered with slippery, microscopic grooves that cause water to flow smoothly around the shark. They also tested fish scales, and included non-textured flat surfaces for comparison. After studying all the textures close up, the researchers made molds of them in silicone and cast plastic replicas. To emulate the waxy coating on the rice leaves and the slippery coating on shark skin (which in nature is actually mucous), they covered all the surfaces with a special coating consisting of nanoparticles. In one test, they lined plastic pipes with the different coated textures and pushed water through them. The resulting water pressure drop in the pipe was an indication of fluid flow. For a pipe about the size of a cocktail straw, a thin lining of shark skin texture coated with nanoparticles reduced water pressure drop by 29 percent compared to the non-coated surface. The coated rice leaf came in second, with 26 percent, and the butterfly wing came in third with around 15 percent. Then they dusted the textures with silicon carbide powder – a common industrial powder that resembles natural dirt – and tested how easy the surfaces were to clean. They held the samples at a 45-degree angle and dripped water over them from a syringe for two minutes, so that about two tablespoons of water washed over them in total. Using software, they counted the number of silicon carbide particles on each texture before and after washing. The shark skin came out the cleanest, with 98 percent of the particles washing off during the test. Next came the rice leaf, with 95 percent, and the butterfly wing with about 85 percent washing off. By comparison, only 70 percent washed off of the flat surface. Bushan thinks that the rice leaf texture might be especially suited to helping fluid move more efficiently through pipes, such as channels in micro-devices or oil pipelines. As to the Blue Morpho's beautiful wings, their ability to keep the butterfly clean and dry suggests to him that the clapboard roof texture might suit medical equipment, where it could prevent the growth of bacteria. http://phys.org/news/2012-11-butterfly-wings-high-tech-surfaces.html “Insect Wings Shred Bacteria to Pieces” - March 2013 - with video https://uncommondescent.com/news/from-nature-news-insect-wings-shred-bacteria-to-pieces/
bornagain77
November 25, 2016
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of note:
Peppered Moth Still Not Evolving by Brian Thomas, M.S. ,,, what began as a population of light and dark moth varieties existed through the industrial revolution as a population of light and dark moth varieties. No net evolution occurred. And that's essentially what geneticists confirmed in their new study.,,, 5. A hiccup in healthy cell processes that randomly pasted the 21,925-long TE into this particular gene would justify the Nature study authors calling it a "mutation." However, processes could have pasted the TE into this gene as part of an internal variation-generating protocol. But this implies ingeniously designed automated genetic-script editing. The team did not test these options, but whether the TE placement happened by accident or design, the cut-and-paste process itself followed a focused strategy using cellular machinery and protocols. http://www.icr.org/article/peppered-moth-still-not-evolving/
and again, other TE studies show the placement of TEs to be 'non-random' https://uncommondescent.com/evolution/turns-out-peppered-moths-take-care-to-protect-themselves-find-best-position/#comment-621062 "The majority, perhaps all, of the investigated retroelement families exhibited non-random dispersal across the maize genome," http://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1000732 Thus the placement of TEs in moths, from the best evidence now available from other research, does not suggest that the placement of TEs in moths was a random event. In fact, taking into consideration the complexity, and many molecular machines, involved in 'cutting and pasting' several thousand bases into the genome as a 'new' regulatory element, and the odds against it happening purely by chance, it is ludicrous to suggest it was a 'random/accidental' event. But ludicrous is apparently fine and dandy with wd400.bornagain77
November 25, 2016
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wd Thanks for your reply.
Literlly the only thing that (now) separates PaV’s assertions from the mainstream evolutionary explanation of this phenomenom is the idea that the mutation is directed. But it’s a pretty weird sort of “direction” when it only occurs in one moth.
If so, then I'd agree with your view, as I said earlier, I don't think a case can be made for a "directed mutation" having occured based on this data alone. I think this could contribute to an argument for that kind of thing, but thus far it is speculative, and there's nothing in the paper to support it. However, as I read it, PaV and Origenes and Cornelius Hunter are pointing first to the improbability of that mutation/insertion. That's what is driving the speculation about directed, or pre-programmed mutation.
As I said above, you might want to read up a bit about the rate and effects of transposable element integrations.
I think many of us are interested in this. As I see it, the probability of that kind of mutation occuring is very small, and Origenes quoted Hunter a couple of times pointing out how difficult it would be to model this kind of complex insertion event. So, with that, if you have anything we could read that would support the idea that this was not an astronomically improbable event, then that would help quite a lot.
Moreover, remember that PaV necro’d this thread because he (without reading the paper…) thought its results supported his ravings above about epigenetics and directed mutation. It should be clear to anyone who read this that’s not the case. Just as I said at the time, it’s mutation to generate a simple Mendelian trait followed by strong selection to nearly fix the mutant allele.
Ok, again I agree that this does not necessarily show a directed mutation, but it certainly does not if this mutation is of the ordinary sort we would expect - in other words, it's not significantly different than the odds of a point mutation occurring in the same way. My concern on your response is that you did not address the difference between a point mutation and an insertion of a segment 22 thousand nucleotides. As you state, it's a mutation to generate a simple Mendelian trait - yes, the trait is simple, but the mutation is not. For me, that's where the focus of the argument is. If you do not accept that the insertion was a highly improbable event, then you're obviously not going to see any need to propose it as a directed mutation.Silver Asiatic
November 25, 2016
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Yes.wd400
November 25, 2016
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wd400: The pattern of lin[k]age disequilibrium and decreased genetic diversity associated with the allele only makes sense if the gene arose once ...
For clarity: you are claiming that the data only make sense if the insert happened in one single moth. If the insert happened in 10 moths, 100 moths or a thousand moths the data no longer make sense. Do I understand you correctly?Origenes
November 25, 2016
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Well, I'm afraid you are just wrong about this. The pattern of linage disequilibrium and decreased genetic diversity associated with the allele only makes sense if the gene arose once the was quickly driven to high frequency ( a so called "selective sweep").wd400
November 25, 2016
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wd400: This paper, and others before it, demonstrated that this phenotype is the result of a single mutation in that sense. So the scenario Hunter imagined is ruled out. Clear?
Nope. The paper does not demonstrate "a single mutation in that sense". It does not demonstrate randomness. Clear?Origenes
November 25, 2016
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Are you serious? Do you derive ‘single random mutation in one individual moth’ from the term “single mutation”? Is that how you argue for your Darwinian position?
That's the plain meaning of the phrase, yes. It's not about "arguing" for a position, it's just what those words mean.
A non-random directed mutation can be described as a “single mutation” wrt an individual moth, however by doing so it is certainly not implied that this happens in one individual moth only. Quite the contrary. Given the presence of relevant preprogrammed directed adaptation mechanisms in British peppered moths, we would obviously expect exposure to a specific “single mutation” by multiple moths.
Well, again, "single mutation" means a gene variant that arose just once. This paper, and others before it, demonstrated that this phenotype is the result of a single mutation in that sense. So the scenario Hunter imagined is ruled out. Clear?wd400
November 25, 2016
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wd400, Are you serious? Do you derive 'single random mutation in one individual moth' from the term "single mutation"? Is that how you argue for your Darwinian position? It also doesn't follow: A non-random directed mutation can be described as a "single mutation" wrt an individual moth, however by doing so it is certainly not implied that this happens in one individual moth only. Quite the contrary. Given the presence of relevant preprogrammed directed adaptation mechanisms in British peppered moths, we would obviously expect exposure to a specific "single mutation" by multiple moths.Origenes
November 25, 2016
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I don't think you understand what is meant by "single mutation". It means a single event. All of the black moths inherited a gene variant that was created by a single mutation.wd400
November 24, 2016
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wd400: How can a single mutation happen in more than one moth?
This can be the case if the "single mutation" is the result of, as Dr. Hunter terms it, "preprogrammed directed adaptation mechanisms" present in British peppered moths.
wd400: I really don’t know what you are failing to grasp about this.
Really? And I'm wondering why it is that I have to explain it to you again and again.
wd400: Again, I don’t see the problem.
After I pointed out that it can only be a problem for your position, you no longer see the "one moth problem". How convenient.
wd400: If the response is random with respect to fitness and rare we’d expect to occur only once.
As a random event it is astronomically unlikely. So much so that we expect it to never happen.
wd400: If it was directed (and therefore a common response to the same stimulus that many thousands of moths received) we’d expect to occur multiple times. Right?
Right. We would expect multiple dark coloured moths — which is actually confirmed by observation.Origenes
November 24, 2016
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How can a single mutation happen in more than one moth? I really don't know what you are failing to grasp about this.
The exact same “one moth problem” that you envisioned for the (non-existent) scenario of “directed response, programmed to occur in a single moth then take over the population” [wd400 in post #115].
Again, I don't see the problem.If the response is random with respect to fitness and rare we'd expect to occur only once. If it was directed (and therefore a common response to the same stimulus that many thousands of moths received) we'd expect to occur multiple times. Right?wd400
November 24, 2016
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wd400,
This paper (and others before it) demonstrate this phenotype is the result of a single mutation.
For clarity: an insert of 21,925 nucleotides.
wd400: So it happened in one moth ...
It is only your assumption that this happened in one moth. Show me where this is demonstrated in the paper.
wd400: ... rather than as the result of environmentally enduced change.
I guess you mean "induced". Whatever... it's another unsubstantiated assumption on your part.
wd400: That doesn’t seem compatible with a programmed response present in all British peppered moths (your own emphasis).
Indeed. Your baseless assumptions are not compatible with Dr. Hunter's scenario. Bravo!
wd400: What “one moth problem” exists for random mutation?
The exact same "one moth problem" that you envisioned for the (non-existent) scenario of "directed response, programmed to occur in a single moth then take over the population" [wd400 in post #115].Origenes
November 24, 2016
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Origenes, I'm honestly not sure what you're on about. Let's break it down. This paper (and others before it) demonstrate this phenotype is the result of a single mutation. So it happened in one moth, other black moths inherited this trait from this ancestor rather than as the result of environmentally enduced change. That doesn't seem compatible with a programmed response present in all British peppered moths (your own emphasis). Why did Hunter propose a program response, when it seems so unlikely given the paper? I presume because he didn't read the paper. If he did he didn't understand it, I guess. What "one moth problem" exists for random mutation?wd400
November 24, 2016
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wd400,
wd400: ... that’s the only reason I can imagine Hunter would propose a scenario that is so ad odds with the paper.
The scenario that Dr. Hunter proposes is this: “A much more likely explanation, and one that has been found to be true in so many other cases of adaptation (in spite of evolutionary pushback), is that the peppered moth coloration change was directed. The environmental change and challenge somehow caused the peppered moth to modify its color. This suggests there are preprogrammed, directed adaptation mechanisms, already in place that are ready to respond to future, potential, environmental changes, which might never occur.” [Dr.Hunter], and you have provided zero arguments as to why this scenario is at odds with the findings in the paper.
wd400: The paper establishes that the phenotype is the result of a single mutation, so if it was a “directed” mutation it was directed to occur in one moth.
You don’t seem to understand what is meant by “directed”. And what’s up with your “in one moth”? Why do you hold that “preprogrammed, directed adaptation mechanisms”, present in all British peppered moths, is only activated in just one moth? On what basis do you think that this is Dr. Hunter’s position? If there is indeed a “one moth problem”, then this is only a problem for your position. Only if the insert was a random mutation, then a “one moth problem” emerges. So perhaps, you must answer your own question:
wd400: Is you claim really that this is a directed response, programmed to occur RANDOM MUTATION in a single moth then take over the population?
Origenes
November 24, 2016
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Since you completely lack imagination, let’s supply some: There are ‘directed’ mechanisms within the genome that, due to some environmental effect, begin to mutate certain innate operations of adaptation, or change within an organism. These mechanisms—always present—when affected by some ‘cue’, respond by heightening the mutational capabilities of the organism; however, not in a ‘general,’ but in a more ‘specific’ way, a way that isolates certain protein domains or regulatory targets. Thus, while ‘randomness’ is an element being used by the organism, the ONLY way that this ‘randomness’ has any effect is due to the ability of the organism to isolate, or specify, where the mutational mechanisms are to be activated. Hence, there is a ‘randomness’ to it—meaning that ‘one’ will end up with the needed ‘mutation’ (here, a rather colossal insert [Diogenes]), and will then spread via normal inheritance and ‘selection.’ There, now do you see?
Honestly, I do not. What has this to do with the paper? How does it fit with the fact this is a single mutation? What evidence is there for these directed mutations at all, let alone in this case?
The majority, perhaps all, of the investigated retroelement families exhibited non-random dispersal across the maize genome, with LINEs, SINEs, and many low-copy-number LTR retrotransposons exhibiting a bias for accumulation in gene-rich regions.
Do you really need to be taught that the "random" in RM+NS means random with respect to fitness? This paper is saying that some classes of TEs preferentially integrate in gene-rich or gene poor regions (which is likely a result of the fact some retroelements tend to insert themselves into other copies of their own sequence, creating large gene-poor regions in the process).
Now, the idea is this: the alleles are present for both the dark and light-bodied moths. Because more and more ‘light-bodied’ ones are visible and selectively eaten, the dark-bodied alleles accumulate and change the allele frequency. Is that what we see here?
Yes.wd400
November 24, 2016
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wd400:
Moreover, remember that PaV necro’d this thread because he (without reading the paper…) thought its results supported his ravings above about epigenetics and directed mutation. It should be clear to anyone who read this that’s not the case. Just as I said at the time, it’s mutation to generate a simple Mendelian trait followed by strong selection to nearly fix the mutant allele.
Ravings? Really? Now, here's what Wikipedia has to say about our beloved peppered moths:
In peppered moths, the allele for dark-bodied moths is dominant, while the allele for light-bodied moths is recessive, meaning that the typica moths have a phenotype (visible or detectable characteristic) that is only seen in a homozygous genotype (an organism that has two copies of the same allele), and never in a heterozygous one. This helps explain how dramatically quickly the population changed when being selected for dark colouration.
Now, the idea is this: the alleles are present for both the dark and light-bodied moths. Because more and more 'light-bodied' ones are visible and selectively eaten, the dark-bodied alleles accumulate and change the allele frequency. Is that what we see here? Answer, honestly, wd400.PaV
November 24, 2016
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wd400: This is how you view things:
Well you asked me what I thought, and that’s the only reason I can imagine Hunter would propose a scenario that is so a[t] odds with the paper. The paper establishes that the phenotype is the result of a single mutation, so if it was a “directed” mutation it was directed to occur in one moth. . . . It remains the fact we are talking about a single insertion. Do you really think a this is response is “directed” to occur in a single moth?
Since you completely lack imagination, let's supply some: There are 'directed' mechanisms within the genome that, due to some environmental effect, begin to mutate certain innate operations of adaptation, or change within an organism. These mechanisms---always present---when affected by some 'cue', respond by heightening the mutational capabilities of the organism; however, not in a 'general,' but in a more 'specific' way, a way that isolates certain protein domains or regulatory targets. Thus, while 'randomness' is an element being used by the organism, the ONLY way that this 'randomness' has any effect is due to the ability of the organism to isolate, or specify, where the mutational mechanisms are to be activated. Hence, there is a 'randomness' to it---meaning that 'one' will end up with the needed 'mutation' (here, a rather colossal insert [Diogenes]), and will then spread via normal inheritance and 'selection.' There, now do you see?
PaV:TE’s are not ‘random.’
wd400: You keep saying this, but it’s not true. In this case we are talking about a single mutation. Is you claim really that this is a directed response, programmed to occur in a single moth then take over the population?
The TE's are not random From this 2009 paper:
Recent comprehensive sequence analysis of the maize genome now permits detailed discovery and description of all transposable elements (TEs) in this complex nuclear environment. . . . The majority, perhaps all, of the investigated retroelement families exhibited non-random dispersal across the maize genome, with LINEs, SINEs, and many low-copy-number LTR retrotransposons exhibiting a bias for accumulation in gene-rich regions.
McClintock did her original work on maize.PaV
November 24, 2016
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SA, I'm really not sure you've read the same thread as I have. Literlly the only thing that (now) separates PaV's assertions from the mainstream evolutionary explanation of this phenomenom is the idea that the mutation is directed. But it's a pretty weird sort of "direction" when it only occurs in one moth.
I love it! He equates the two radically different events as both “a type of mutation”, says nothing about the probability of that DNA segment insertion into the genome, and adds the question “I’m not sure what you think this adds?
As I said above, you might want to read up a bit about the rate and effects of transposable element integrations. Moreover, remember that PaV necro'd this thread because he (without reading the paper...) thought its results supported his ravings above about epigenetics and directed mutation. It should be clear to anyone who read this that's not the case. Just as I said at the time, it's mutation to generate a simple Mendelian trait followed by strong selection to nearly fix the mutant allele.wd400
November 24, 2016
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Do not simply state your opinions, but provide arguments for your views. For instance, when you wish to talk probabilities, you should take example from dr. Hunter, who does provide arguments:
Well you asked me what I thought, and that's the only reason I can imagine Hunter would propose a scenario that is so ad odds with the paper. The paper establishes that the phenotype is the result of a single mutation, so if it was a "directed" mutation it was directed to occur in one moth.
We now know that Nick’s intuition failed him. What actually happened was an insert of 21,925 nucleotides. This is a very complicated event and therefore it’s tricky to refer to it as a mere “single mutation”. It gives rise to the wrong associations: “single mutation”, “point mutation”, “easy”, “logical” and so forth.
There is nothing very complex about a TE insertion. In humans, where TEs are relatively quiet, we probably each have a new insertion. In Drosopophila some elements like P and I end up copying themselves almost every generation. Aslmot as if "Evolution would have to be inserting segments of DNA with (i) different sequences, at (ii) different locations, within the moth genome"...wd400
November 24, 2016
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BA77
Silver Asiatic, if it were possible to ever get a straight answer out of wd400 ...
I think we both know, that's never going to happen. :-) But I admire your persistent efforts to try. Actually, I admire many things about wd400 - not the least of which that he continues to participate here after so many years. But also that he is so totally committed to his worldview that he cannot permit the slightest concession to design or admit the smallest doubt about the power of Darwinian processes. I find that kind of charming in some ways - it's like religious loyalty or patriotism to a cause. He's also truly amazing in that he takes no interest at all in the philosophical (moral, spiritual, rational) implications of his belief system. It's always just ... zero. No response, or some cryptic one-liner at best. He's a true atheist/materialist -- a wonderful example to observe and study! I'll also say he has corrected me (and us) several times, at least forcing a doctrinaire reading of Darwinian papers, and of course, strictly speaking, they're not going to say something is evidence of ID. That's what we read into it, but he is technically correct many times. Finally, and sincerely, he doesn't get nasty about it. Unless we'd say being completely obdurate and closed to refutations of his point of view as being rude, it will usually just be the mind-bogglingly (fake?) naive phrase, like this one:
Insertions are a type of mutation, I’m not sure what you think this adds?
I love it! He equates the two radically different events as both "a type of mutation", says nothing about the probability of that DNA segment insertion into the genome, and adds the question "I'm not sure what you think this adds?" He's a master of understating the problem, deflecting attention and then claiming "he's not sure" what we think the difference between point mutation and the insertion of 22K nucleotides really adds to the conversation. LOL. After 10 (?) years on this blog, wd400 is not sure of what we're seeing here?Silver Asiatic
November 24, 2016
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Silver Asiatic, if it were possible to ever get a straight answer out of wd400, I would like to ask him, since he holds practically everything in the cell to be the result of randomness instead of the result of purposeful intent, why is it impossible for Darwinists, in the peer reviewed literature, to describe the complexities of biological life without illegitimately using words that invoke agent causality and/or teleology, instead of just attributing the actions in the cell to randomness as wd400 is bent on doing?:
The ‘Mental Cell’: Let’s Loosen Up Biological Thinking! – Stephen L. Talbott – September 9, 2014 Excerpt: Many biologists are content to dismiss the problem with hand-waving: “When we wield the language of agency, we are speaking metaphorically, and we could just as well, if less conveniently, abandon the metaphors”. Yet no scientist or philosopher has shown how this shift of language could be effected. And the fact of the matter is just obvious: the biologist who is not investigating how the organism achieves something in a well-directed way is not yet doing biology, as opposed to physics or chemistry. Is this in turn just hand-waving? Let the reader inclined to think so take up a challenge: pose a single topic for biological research, doing so in language that avoids all implication of agency, cognition, and purposiveness1. One reason this cannot be done is clear enough: molecular biology — the discipline that was finally going to reduce life unreservedly to mindless mechanism — is now posing its own severe challenges. In this era of Big Data, the message from every side concerns previously unimagined complexity, incessant cross-talk and intertwining pathways, wildly unexpected genomic performances, dynamic conformational changes involving proteins and their cooperative or antagonistic binding partners, pervasive multifunctionality, intricately directed behavior somehow arising from the interaction of countless players in interpenetrating networks, and opposite effects by the same molecules in slightly different contexts. The picture at the molecular level begins to look as lively and organic — and thoughtful — as life itself. http://natureinstitute.org/txt/st/org/comm/ar/2014/mental_cell_23.htm
This working biologist agrees with Talbott’s assessment:
Life, Purpose, Mind: Where the Machine Metaphor Fails – Ann Gauger – June 2011 Excerpt: I’m a working biologist, on bacterial regulation (transcription and translation and protein stability) through signalling molecules, ,,, I can confirm the following points as realities: we lack adequate conceptual categories for what we are seeing in the biological world; with many additional genomes sequenced annually, we have much more data than we know what to do with (and making sense of it has become the current challenge); cells are staggeringly chock full of sophisticated technologies, which are exquisitely integrated; life is not dominated by a single technology, but rather a composite of many; and yet life is more than the sum of its parts; in our work, we biologists use words that imply intentionality, functionality, strategy, and design in biology–we simply cannot avoid them. Furthermore, I suggest that to maintain that all of biology is solely a product of selection and genetic decay and time requires a metaphysical conviction that isn’t troubled by the evidence. Alternatively, it could be the view of someone who is unfamiliar with the evidence, for one reason or another. But for those who will consider the evidence that is so obvious throughout biology, I suggest it’s high time we moved on. – Matthew http://www.evolutionnews.org/2011/06/life_purpose_mind_where_the_ma046991.html#comment-8858161
bornagain77
November 24, 2016
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Every once in a while we get a thread here that is so entertaining that I'm almost embarrassed to enjoy it so much -- and here we have one! Watching wd400 trying to squirm out of this is simply delightful. He is totally exposed. It's amazing how much is revealed in his little cryptic comments. "Nothing to see here, it's just a mutation that spread through the population!" Ha ha. I love it. Great job by Origenes to expose rbv's ignorance also. He doesn't know if it was a point mutation or an insertion of 21,925 nucleotides - but for him it doesn't matter. LOL. PaV has also done an admirable job in trying to tease out some answers from wd400 and as we know, that's always a slow and painful process. The only place I think there is a slip-up is by including the speculation that the insertion was 'directed'. It may well be the case, but that's still speculative. And of course, instead of trying to defend his own position, wd400 jumped on that part of the claim. It doesn't matter that much, it's obvious that he's trying to dig himself out of a hole, so he thinks a turn-around will work in this case. Very amusing!Silver Asiatic
November 24, 2016
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wd400, rvb8.
WD400:
Origenes: For clarity, we are not talking about a single point mutation, therefore it would be helpful to say: “we are talking about a single insert“.
Insertions are a type of mutation, I’m not sure what you think this adds?
Clarity! Notice the confused state that rvb8 is in:
rvb8: Nick and wd400 both explain that a single mutation (or perhaps an ‘insertion’, not sure) caused a gene ...
Rvb8 labours under the idea that an "insertion"is not a "single mutation" — perhaps because he equates "single mutation" with "point mutation". See the confusion? Also, what did Nick "explain" — back in 2012?
Nick Matzke: ... we don’t quite know the exact mutational change yet, but it could well be just a point mutation.
We now know that Nick's intuition failed him. What actually happened was an insert of 21,925 nucleotides. This is a very complicated event and therefore it's tricky to refer to it as a mere "single mutation". It gives rise to the wrong associations: "single mutation", "point mutation", "easy", "logical" and so forth. See what this does to poor rvb8:
rvb8: Easy, logical, evidence based, supported by years of patient research. Not being a scientist but genuinely interested in letting scientists explain their work, this explanation is clearly the correct one.
No rvb8, from a Darwinian perspective, it's neither "easy" nor "logical"...
Dr. Hunter: … evolutionary theory requires that the needed random DNA mutational change is reasonably likely to occur. Given the moth’s effective population size, the moth’s generation time period, and the complexity of the mutation, the needed mutation is not likely to occur. Evolution would have to be inserting segments of DNA with (i) different sequences, at (ii) different locations, within the moth genome. This is an enormous space of mutational possibilities to search through. It doesn’t add up. Evolution does not have the resources in terms of time and effective population size to come anywhere close to searching this astronomical mutational space. It’s not going to happen. [dr. Hunter]
Origenes
November 24, 2016
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PaV @110: Agree with you. I did not want to imply 'randomness' at all. That's left out to Interpretation. Someone could say that I met my wife in college by accident. I don't believe that. But I won't argue about it. Though could give -upon request- a strong reason for what I believe. Again, here's part of the referenced paper:
The carb-TE is a spectacular example of an adaptively advantageous transposon; its discovery fills a fundamental gap in the peppered moth story and furthers our appreciation of the mechanism underpinning rapid adaptation. A consensus on the general importance of transposable elements for adaptive evolution has yet to emerge.
As you know, many folks like to stick to the pseudoscientific 'evo' jargon. One must ignore those terms when they obstruct the real meaning of the text.Dionisio
November 24, 2016
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